Loan Thread 2023/24

[lets all have a disco]

You could be right but I will be watching his progress the second half of this season with interest.

Agreed....cause hopefully someone in Portugal might offer a fee.....I think that's why we sent him back there......

 

[North West Wanderer]

I am also in Edinburgh. Does anyone ever meet up?

nope, i thought i was solo until Edinburgh Wolf posted! are you in the city?

 

[North West Wanderer]

Absolutely. You can also relate to the vast majority of the players, as they're not earning life-changing, ridiculous sums of money whilst playing in Scotland.

A little town in West Lothian covered in Rangers graffiti?! Surely not! At a guess, is it Armadale?

Not quite West Lothian, although historically was, closer to the Forth!
We did look at a beautiful property in Amradale but wanted to be closer to Edinburgh.
Rangers used to play reserve games not far away i believe.

and yep its a much more relatable sport up here, the junior football set up is great.

 

[Rowzed]

What it lacks in quality, it makes up for in passion. @Edinburgh Wolf would be able to attest more than I can.
I live almost 20 miles West of Edinburgh and roughly 30 miles from Glasgow.
When Rangers got 55, my little town was covered in graffiti, banners etc.
I have an Edinburgh postcode. Madness

What grieves me, having some Scottish ancestry, is that until recently Scotland had provided many of the great Wolves players. Willie Carr, Frank Munro, in the golden years of the 70s, Kenny Miller, Alex Rae, Colin Cameron, Christophe Berra, Chris Iwelumo; there are plenty more. We also had cousins from across the water in Ireland.

Now our kids follow Brazilians, Portuguese, Spanish, French and Korean players, they are genuinely admirable and we are lucky to get to see them play, but I love it when we unearth a gem from these shores. Tommy Doyle being the shining example this season.

I wonder when we will have another Scot break through at Wolves and get us out of our seats. I don’t agree with the idea that the Old Firm might join the English leagues because it would bankrupt the rest, but what are the Academies doing in Scotland? Where is the depth of talent that used to head south and light up the old first division?

 

[Aurum Lupus]

Our record is not very good for these kind of sales. From what I gather Jonnu has left for nowt with us still paying part of his salary. Jordao will hold on until the end of his contract. Mattheson has gone probably on the hope we will get a sell on fee. And more. So if this is the trend I certainly dont see us making a profit on .

Kilman, Toti, H.Bueno we're all bought as youth for peanuts. Look at the team and its full of bargains who are playing brilliantly, who with the exception of Semedo could and would be sold at considerable increases to what we bought them for.

There will always be failures, but if you just list them and not the positives you're going to have a pretty bleak outlook!

 

[NothingButNeto]

Chiquinho is 24 now, I think you’re right he may well be moved on. Enso and young Lemina are 6 years younger so have much more development time

Enso is pretty far away from making the first team; Noha has already played men’s football but he also probably needs some time around the first team before he breaks through.

As I said, I could easily see Chiquinho be a squad player next season in place of Chirewa. He is very highly rated at the club and was only sent on loan to get a lot of minutes after his injury.

We will certainly bring a ready made winger if Neto goes, as is expected.

 

[MotorWoden]

nope, i thought i was solo until Edinburgh Wolf posted! are you in the city?

I am in Portobello.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Enso is pretty far away from making the first team; Noha has already played men’s football but he also probably needs some time around the first team before he breaks through.

As I said, I could easily see Chiquinho be a squad player next season in place of Chirewa. He is very highly rated at the club and was only sent on loan to get a lot of minutes after his injury.

We will certainly bring a ready made winger if Neto goes, as is expected.

Enso has played more senior football than young Lemina and both are exclusively with the first team now.

 

[North West Wanderer]

What grieves me, having some Scottish ancestry, is that until recently Scotland had provided many of the great Wolves players. Willie Carr, Frank Munro, in the golden years of the 70s, Kenny Miller, Alex Rae, Colin Cameron, Christophe Berra, Chris Iwelumo; there are plenty more. We also had cousins from across the water in Ireland.

Now our kids follow Brazilians, Portuguese, Spanish, French and Korean players, they are genuinely admirable and we are lucky to get to see them play, but I love it when we unearth a gem from these shores. Tommy Doyle being the shining example this season.

I wonder when we will have another Scot break through at Wolves and get us out of our seats. I don’t agree with the idea that the Old Firm might join the English leagues because it would bankrupt the rest, but what are the Academies doing in Scotland? Where is the depth of talent that used to head south and light up the old first division?

Italy in a few cases, thinking of Hickey and Ferguson (i think)
but you’re right, there’s very few being produced and i believe it’s the same in Rugby.
as capable as Scotland are right now, i believe their u20s are downright poor? what’s happening with sport?

 

[North West Wanderer]

I am in Portobello.

very nice! i’m just after Linlithgow, betwen Bo’ness and Falkirk.

 

[Edinburgh Wolf]

What grieves me, having some Scottish ancestry, is that until recently Scotland had provided many of the great Wolves players. Willie Carr, Frank Munro, in the golden years of the 70s, Kenny Miller, Alex Rae, Colin Cameron, Christophe Berra, Chris Iwelumo; there are plenty more. We also had cousins from across the water in Ireland.

Now our kids follow Brazilians, Portuguese, Spanish, French and Korean players, they are genuinely admirable and we are lucky to get to see them play, but I love it when we unearth a gem from these shores. Tommy Doyle being the shining example this season.

I wonder when we will have another Scot break through at Wolves and get us out of our seats. I don’t agree with the idea that the Old Firm might join the English leagues because it would bankrupt the rest, but what are the Academies doing in Scotland? Where is the depth of talent that used to head south and light up the old first division?

They mostly leave Scotland earlier now to join/get lost in the English academy system. There's also a couple of young Scottish boys at Bayern Munich, who left Celtic when they were 16.

As NWW said, there's been a decent number of younger players doing very well in Italy, where the mid-table teams seem to be more willing than English clubs to take a chance on young Scottish players. Hickey, Ferguson and Doig have all been successes over there, and I'm sure more will follow.

 

[Edinburgh Wolf]

I am in Portobello.

Random question, but you don't happen to have a son who goes to football coaching with Danny Swanson, do you?! My son was there in his Raul strip one day and another kid told him that he was also a Wolves supporter!

 

[Rowzed]

They mostly leave Scotland earlier now to join/get lost in the English academy system. There's also a couple of young Scottish boys at Bayern Munich, who left Celtic when they were 16.

As NWW said, there's been a decent number of younger players doing very well in Italy, where the mid-table teams seem to be more willing than English clubs to take a chance on young Scottish players. Hickey, Ferguson and Doig have all been successes over there, and I'm sure more will follow.

Let’s hope so,

I wonder if Scots academies playing in a ‘home nations’ league might be considered by the four (five) national FAs. It would strengthen the pathway for Irish, Welsh and Scottish youngsters without prejudicing the senior league structures. They’d probably still all end up at Manchester City though !

 

[WKFWolf]

I am in Portobello.

Is there mush room there?

 

[WickedWolfie]

I am in Portobello.

I've always loved Sardinia! West London not quite so much lol....

 

[Lincoln-Wolves86]

Is there mush room there?

Under appreciated post

 

[WickedWolfie]

Is there mush room there?

Are you a chest nut???

 

[lets all have a disco]

People need to remember sometimes we have only fielded about 14/15 senior players in our match day squads ......having 15/17 players out on loan is ridiculous...yes the 4 or 5 kids on there 1st or 2nd loan isn't a problem.....but I'm sure we can get rid of 10 or so players and have zero impact on first team affairs....replace with say 3 or 4 who may help the first team ...

 

[goldfish]

Under appreciated post

He's a fun guy

(fungi...geddiit?)

 

[giantwolf]

Anyway… back on topic

Owen Farmer made his first start and was in the thick of the action as Rushall beat Ecceshall 3-1 in the Staffordshire Senior Cup

Dexter Lembikisa played 90 mins as Hearts beat St Johnstone1-0

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Are you a chest nut???

Nah just a fun guy

 

[sillytuna]

The young players and loanees don't really affect our wages as they're low and partly covered when on loan. Those loans give then experience which makes then saleable or useable.

The issue is players like jordao having such long contracts, and fabio obviously (tho understandably). Bolla seems similar to toti - unlikely to make it but we know toti did. Not saying bolla will but he'll be sold for a profit.

Chiquinho certainly can't be written off. He was a first teamer who suffered a horrendous injury only last season. If the club review him in the summer then fair enough but he needed a year to prove himself.

 

[lets all have a disco]

The young players and loanees don't really affect our wages as they're low and partly covered when on loan. Those loans give then experience which makes then saleable or useable.

The issue is players like jordao having such long contracts, and fabio obviously (tho understandably). Bolla seems similar to toti - unlikely to make it but we know toti did. Not saying bolla will but he'll be sold for a profit.

Chiquinho certainly can't be written off. He was a first teamer who suffered a horrendous injury only last season. If the club review him in the summer then fair enough but he needed a year to prove himself.

No one is writing chiquhinho off as such, I said there was circumstances around his current plight with the injury.....But he has 2 years left on his contract...you ain't going to extend it are you so it puts him in the bracket where you may need to sell before his contract gets down to 12 months as he will be worthless.....Once you get to 24 you can't hang around on the fringes of the first team hoping for a chance....you need naming in the foreign quota to be in the squad....we can't have 3 or 4 who we hope come good.....when you put injury, contract , pecking order all in the mix for me cashing in seems the best option...and ploughing that funds into someone else .....it's not the player it's the circumstance and we can't just sit on finances as it's affecting our business....cause we are restricted financially with recruitment...

 

[Mugwump]

No one is writing chiquhinho off as such, I said there was circumstances around his current plight with the injury.....But he has 2 years left on his contract...you ain't going to extend it are you so it puts him in the bracket where you may need to sell before his contract gets down to 12 months as he will be worthless.....Once you get to 24 you can't hang around on the fringes of the first team hoping for a chance....you need naming in the foreign quota to be in the squad....we can't have 3 or 4 who we hope come good.....when you put injury, contract , pecking order all in the mix for me cashing in seems the best option...and ploughing that funds into someone else .....it's not the player it's the circumstance and we can't just sit on finances as it's affecting our business....cause we are restricted financially with recruitment...

Its not like Chiquhinho is a kid anymore, he's 24 and tbh as much as i think he showed signs of potential, he's just another one of our younger players who just wont ever be good enough.

We need to start moving on some of these players who you can see just wont be good enough.

 

[sillytuna]

No one is writing chiquhinho off as such, I said there was circumstances around his current plight with the injury.....But he has 2 years left on his contract...you ain't going to extend it are you so it puts him in the bracket where you may need to sell before his contract gets down to 12 months as he will be worthless.....Once you get to 24 you can't hang around on the fringes of the first team hoping for a chance....you need naming in the foreign quota to be in the squad....we can't have 3 or 4 who we hope come good.....when you put injury, contract , pecking order all in the mix for me cashing in seems the best option...and ploughing that funds into someone else .....it's not the player it's the circumstance and we can't just sit on finances as it's affecting our business....cause we are restricted financially with recruitment...

That entirely depends on if he's considered a first teamer. If he is, he'll get a year extension. If he isn't then he'll be sold. It's not like he's been with us for years and just not played - he played well in his few appearances, was injured for a year due to bad luck, and he's now getting the year of experience and recovery he needed.

He isn't a hopefully come good, he was (probably) good enough in the short time we saw him. He's a hopefully the injury hasn't ruined his career.

I think you're overestimating the effect on wages of fringe players - they earn nothing like the first teamers. I agree there are one or two we should have handled differently and generally at 23/24 you have to move on but sometimes it's just bad luck. You need to have a few of these potential squad players - the benefits very much outweigh the costs.

FWIW I have no idea how he's playing, only that he was good enough to at least be on the bench. If he isn't going to start with the first team next year than I agree completely, but unless you've been watching him play you can't say he isn't good enough.

 

[lets all have a disco]

That entirely depends on if he's considered a first teamer. If he is, he'll get a year extension. If he isn't then he'll be sold. It's not like he's been with us for years and just not played - he played well in his few appearances, was injured for a year due to bad luck, and he's now getting the year of experience and recovery he needed.

He isn't a hopefully come good, he was (probably) good enough in the short time we saw him. He's a hopefully the injury hasn't ruined his career.

I think you're overestimating the effect on wages of fringe players - they earn nothing like the first teamers. I agree there are one or two we should have handled differently and generally at 23/24 you have to move on but sometimes it's just bad luck. You need to have a few of these potential squad players - the benefits very much outweigh the costs.

FWIW I have no idea how he's playing, only that he was good enough to at least be on the bench. If he isn't going to start with the first team next year than I agree completely, but unless you've been watching him play you can't say he isn't good enough.

Its not like Chiquhinho is a kid anymore, he's 24 and tbh as much as i think he showed signs of potential, he's just another one of our younger players who just wont ever be good enough.

We need to start moving on some of these players who you can see just wont be good enough.

Through no fault of his own he is further away from a first teamer than when we signed him....we've got a bit better and has regressed slightly...his value is less than we paid in reality....all I think is we need to be a bit more ruthless with some players , because as the last window has shown we ain't leaving ourselves much wiggle room to add when the first team squad needs it.....I just think think the peripheral squad and youth set up would benefit from less is more maybe approach , similar to the transformation the first team squad has gone through......we can't have 17 players out on loan and only 14/15, to pick from.....I get most the players are youngsters but most aren't as well....

The same applies for Silva and Hoever....

 

[sillytuna]

Through no fault of his own he is further away from a first teamer than when we signed him....we've got a bit better and has regressed slightly...his value is less than we paid in reality....all I think is we need to be a bit more ruthless with some players , because as the last window has shown we ain't leaving ourselves much wiggle room to add when the first team squad needs it.....I just think think the peripheral squad and youth set up would benefit from less is more maybe approach , similar to the transformation the first team squad has gone through......we can't have 17 players out on loan and only 14/15, to pick from.....I get most the players are youngsters but most aren't as well....

The same applies for Silva and Hoever....

I think it's harder with the rules on loans now too. The hoever purchase was another poor one from the time and it seems very doubtful he's more than a championship player.

 

[Aurum Lupus]

Through no fault of his own he is further away from a first teamer than when we signed him....we've got a bit better and has regressed slightly...his value is less than we paid in reality....all I think is we need to be a bit more ruthless with some players , because as the last window has shown we ain't leaving ourselves much wiggle room to add when the first team squad needs it.....I just think think the peripheral squad and youth set up would benefit from less is more maybe approach , similar to the transformation the first team squad has gone through......we can't have 17 players out on loan and only 14/15, to pick from.....I get most the players are youngsters but most aren't as well....

The same applies for Silva and Hoever....

Where have you got 17 players out on loan from? I looked on Wikipedia and it only has 12 out, only 4 of which you would count as first teamers. I appreciate Wikipedia isnt gospel, so am not saying you're wrong on the numbers, just asking for clarification.

 

[SoCal_Wolf]

Where have you got 17 players out on loan from? I looked on Wikipedia and it only has 12 out, only 4 of which you would count as first teamers. I appreciate Wikipedia isnt gospel, so am not saying you're wrong on the numbers, just asking for clarification.

Trying to think off the top of my head. For senior players that would legitimately be on the bench or getting time on the pitch: Podence (27), Guedes (27), Sasa (26), Chiquinho (24).

Then you have players on the cusp or that are older: Bolla (23), Mosquera (22), Fabio (21), Hodge (21), Cundle (21), Hoever (21), Chem Campbell (21). Would any of these players be "first teamers"? Maybe. All except Bolla have been on our bench and/or seen game time with the first team.

 

[Wolves in Limerick]

I get most the players are youngsters but most aren't as well

I've no idea what you are trying to say in this sentence.

Surely sending players on loan is to see how they perform and to see if they continue to develop. We have to acknowledge also, that if they don't achieve the level of performance the club anticipates, that we are dealing with human beings and that the club has to treat them as such. Contracts have to be honoured and players need to know where they stand. Where a players career is under threat because of a serious injury, there is an onus on the club to help that player to adjust to that new reality. Chiquhinho if I remember correctly wasn't a particularly expensive player when we signed him. I was surprised how quickly he seemed to get into the first team and indeed the quality of his performances. He now appears to be on the road to recovery but how the injury will affect his development remains to be seen. Talking of treating him and other young players ruthlessly if pursued by the club is more likely to sully the clubs reputation rather than enhance it and to discourage young players from wanting to sign.

 

[lets all have a disco]

Where have you got 17 players out on loan from? I looked on Wikipedia and it only has 12 out, only 4 of which you would count as first teamers. I appreciate Wikipedia isnt gospel, so am not saying you're wrong on the numbers, just asking for clarification.

It was a rough guess...when you think we have had to cancel two players contracts recently as well and a few kids have come back pond, tipton, Griffith's etc it wasn't far off......all I was saying is we have had as much not contributing to the first as we have contributing at times this season.....just think it's need rebalancing a bit....I get you will always have kids out but even those either need to be good enough to a least make money or help the first team operation..

 

[lets all have a disco]

I've no idea what you are trying to say in this sentence.

Surely sending players on loan is to see how they perform and to see if they continue to develop. We have to acknowledge also, that if they don't achieve the level of performance the club anticipates, that we are dealing with human beings and that the club has to treat them as such. Contracts have to be honoured and players need to know where they stand. Where a players career is under threat because of a serious injury, there is an onus on the club to help that player to adjust to that new reality. Chiquhinho if I remember correctly wasn't a particularly expensive player when we signed him. I was surprised how quickly he seemed to get into the first team and indeed the quality of his performances. He now appears to be on the road to recovery but how the injury will affect his development remains to be seen. Talking of treating him and other young players ruthlessly if pursued by the club is more likely to sully the clubs reputation rather than enhance it and to discourage young players from wanting to sign.

We have some big earners, senior players out on loan....Two 35m pound players , Two 18m players....that's nearly 100m.....for a club our size that's ridiculous...so some of the players ain't kids.....you also can't really class the likes of Hoever and Bolla as kids when they are out 3 or so season on loan....so they ain't kids...

Seems daft the amount of money we have tied up in loan players and was reluctant to spend an extra 1m on agents fees to strengthen in January because of FFP....

 

[WKFWolf]

We have some big earners, senior players out on loan....Two 35m pound players , Two 18m players....that's nearly 100m.....for a club our size that's ridiculous...so some of the players ain't kids.....you also can't really class the likes of Hoever and Bolla as kids when they are out 3 or so season on loan....so they ain't kids...

Seems daft the amount of money we have tied up in loan players and was reluctant to spend an extra 1m on agents fees to strengthen in January because of FFP....

or its just a sign that we are learning lessons about being taken for rides by agents...

 

[Aurum Lupus]

Trying to think off the top of my head. For senior players that would legitimately be on the bench or getting time on the pitch: Podence (27), Guedes (27), Sasa (26), Chiquinho (24).

Then you have players on the cusp or that are older: Bolla (23), Mosquera (22), Fabio (21), Hodge (21), Cundle (21), Hoever (21), Chem Campbell (21). Would any of these players be "first teamers"? Maybe. All except Bolla have been on our bench and/or seen game time with the first team.

I'd actually counted Fabio as 1st team rather than youth, not Chiquinho, but you're right with him too. Maybe Mosquera could be counted as well. But that's a long way off the worrying number of 17, which I do appreciate wasn't your statement. The rest are all still in development and should be expected to be out gaining experience to come back or be sold. Once broken down the numbers are far more palatable than was being made out.

 

[lets all have a disco]

or its just a sign that we are learning lessons about being taken for rides by agents...

Yes.....got no problem with us not paying the agent as such , I'm just saying what happened..we couldn't strengthen cause money was tight but we have endless players out on loan.....we also need to learn lessons from this as well....move players in quicker who ain't good enough....

We leave it now.....cause this is a good thread with a lot of work put into it......I just think we have too many out on loan and the operation needs reducing...

 

[Premier Quality]

If having players on loan is helping us to make money, and sometimes gets a player in our first team, where’s the problem?

 

[Aurum Lupus]

It was a rough guess...when you think we have had to cancel two players contracts recently as well and a few kids have come back pond, tipton, Griffith's etc it wasn't far off......all I was saying is we have had as much not contributing to the first as we have contributing at times this season.....just think it's need rebalancing a bit....I get you will always have kids out but even those either need to be good enough to a least make money or help the first team operation..

But your rough guess was way off and so doesn't support your argument. I'm not sure now why you've bought cancelled players in to the mix or youth players who've returned who would be nowhere near the 1st team squad. We've used 25 players this season, which is enormously higher than the 6/7 real first teamers out on loan. So we've had nowhere near as many not contributing as the 14/15 you stated either. Your last statement is also exactly what we're doing with all the youth players you named, seeing if they are good enough to play in the prem or putting them in the shop window for other clubs to gain interest.

I get that seeing a significant value in players out on loan is galling, but if you take a step back and look at the actual facts instead of guessing, the picture is nowhere near as bleak as you are making out.

 

[lets all have a disco]

But your rough guess was way off and so doesn't support your argument. I'm not sure now why you've bought cancelled players in to the mix or youth players who've returned who would be nowhere near the 1st team squad. We've used 25 players this season, which is enormously higher than the 6/7 real first teamers out on loan. So we've had nowhere near as many not contributing as the 14/15 you stated either. Your last statement is also exactly what we're doing with all the youth players you named, seeing if they are good enough to play in the prem or putting them in the shop window for other clubs to gain interest.

I get that seeing a significant value in players out on loan is galling, but if you take a step back and look at the actual facts instead of guessing, the picture is nowhere near as bleak as you are making out.

My original point was about chiquhinho, which stands he isn't a first teamer....none of Sasa hoever Guedes podence bolla chiquhinho will ever be .. there's 6 before we start in the youth players, which is a different argument....sorry if you don't think that is a problem that needs addressing...

 

[giantwolf]

Where have you got 17 players out on loan from? I looked on Wikipedia and it only has 12 out, only 4 of which you would count as first teamers. I appreciate Wikipedia isnt gospel, so am not saying you're wrong on the numbers, just asking for clarification.

It was a rough guess...when you think we have had to cancel two players contracts recently as well and a few kids have come back pond, tipton, Griffith's etc it wasn't far off......all I was saying is we have had as much not contributing to the first as we have contributing at times this season.....just think it's need rebalancing a bit....I get you will always have kids out but even those either need to be good enough to a least make money or help the first team operation..

If only there was a post on this thread that tells you who is out on loan…..

It’s 20 of which 12 would be first team squad

 

[lets all have a disco]

If only there was a post on this thread that tells you who is out on loan…..

It’s 20 of which 12 would be first team squad

I bet it nearer 20 players who at some point have been out of loan this season...granted about half are kids.....

Sorry to derail you thread a bit ...as you do a good job.....it's a full time job for you keeping up , which probably gives me a bit of credibility in what I'm saying...it's out of control and needs trimming...