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Everton, surely a points deduction?

topcat99

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Which is what I assume Forest would argue, and I'm sure they will claim (with some justification) that because the date for the new regulation doesn't match with the club's accounting period, it doesn't give a true reflection of their financial position.

And I could reasonably argue that Johnson could have torn an ACL in training and wouldn’t have been sold at all.
He didn’t, but it is the same amount of “Whataboutery “ that Forest are embarking upon.
 
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And I could reasonably argue that Johnson could have torn an ACL in training and wouldn’t have been sold at all.
He didn’t, but it is the same amount of “Whataboutery “ that Forest are embarking upon.
But he didn't and he was sold which will impact positively on their year's accounts. I have no issue with the concept of the regulations but for me they should have been aligned with club's end of year accounts.
 

SingYourHeartsOut

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But he didn't and he was sold which will impact positively on their year's accounts. I have no issue with the concept of the regulations but for me they should have been aligned with club's end of year accounts.
To add to the list of things I'm not clear about, although we'll publish accounts at some time ending 31st May 2023, is the information to the PL for that date or to 30th June? Johnson was sold way too late for either though.
 

Black Country Wanderer

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It could have very easily been disaster for us on and off the pitch. Shi et al really did put us in quite a lot of danger with years of terrible decision making up until Nov 2022. Despite that things do appear to have worked out ok for us by hook or by crook (touch wood). We’ve had some luck within that though.

Its clear in retrospect that we had to take some evasive action to get our house in order over the summer, but the comms on this really was absolutely terrible. I’m loathe also to give the club too much credit for doing so, since they dug the hole in the first place?
While i agree that we have made some poor choices in hindsight,not many were calling the club out at the time,in fact most on here wanted even more spending
The fact that a few didnt work out and possibly we overpaid for a couple happens all the time in football,you cant blame the club for players that get homesick or just plain dont suit the Prem style no matter what their price tag
Even last summer people were calling it all a smoke screen and we had no problem with FFP just Fosun creaming off the top lol
 

topcat99

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But he didn't and he was sold which will impact positively on their year's accounts. I have no issue with the concept of the regulations but for me they should have been aligned with club's end of year accounts.

As I said. “Whataboutery” and not relevant to the facts and deadlines as they currently stand.

(I may or may not agree with your point though. But so confused by this that I’ll wait and see)
 

Matt

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I don’t think Forest have a leg to stand on if that is their defence. It makes deadlines pointless.
 

Halesowen wwfc

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But he didn't and he was sold which will impact positively on their year's accounts. I have no issue with the concept of the regulations but for me they should have been aligned with club's end of year accounts.
But the clubs know what time period they have to work with for ffp, it would not have come as a surpise to forest, otherwise whats the point in having rules if you are just gonna push the limits in your first season in the premier league. The rules are clear, and if forest had sold brennan for the 30m brentford offered, they most likely would not be in the position of being charged now. Whos to say we couldnt have held out for more for coady, collins etc but we had to sell to comply. We had to do what we had to do, selling neves being part of it. Forest should have done the same. The forest forum are very much of the opinion this is their own boards fault buying a load of crap players, vanity project in jesse lingard, and even going further back in having to rely on loan players in the championship because of previous overspending allowed by the owner forcing them to have to loan players as they couldnt afford to buy new ones. Forest didnt need to sign the volume of players they have done in every window so far since they got promoted, and now have a large bulky squad, with a number of players signed for some significant money not even able to get into their matchday squads.

If we were up for charges, because we had spent more than the rules allowed us to, and we hadnt been able to sell half our first team in the early summer, then we would have to accept whatever penalties were put upon us.
 

Northampton_wolf

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This is how i see it:
correct as we turned off the taps and needed to not breach FFP for 2023-24 (year end 31s May)

Profit of 18.1m 2020-21

We lost 46.1m in 21-22

its rumoured somewhere between a 60 to 75m loss 22-23

Obbviously for 23-24 we lost the 18.1m profit, so again are in need of a healthy small profit this year.


For 24-25 Next summer July1st onwards,

We will then have 60 to 75m 22-23 (Loss)

This years Profit

And therefore we have room to make purchases far greater as we have scope for a c 40m loss, i expect we will want to keep to maximum 25m loss, as they want to build a sustainable club
 

Sussex Wolf

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But he didn't and he was sold which will impact positively on their year's accounts. I have no issue with the concept of the regulations but for me they should have been aligned with club's end of year accounts.

The reporting deadline has to be the same for all PL clubs, and is aligned with the PL handbook, which defines that players contracts run on a July 1 - June 30 cycle. Most clubs also have financial reporting cycles running July - June for the same reason, and that’s why PwC do their annual review of football finances on the same cycle. Some clubs like Wolves have theirs running June - May, but that’s irrelevant to this regulation.

The most important aspect of this is that Forest knew what the reporting period was, and if they are to be believed, they chose not to sell Johnson within it in order to secure a higher sale price later in the summer. That’s their prerogative, but it’s a decision which now has consequences. If they now get a sizeable points deduction and are relegated as a result, then it was a very poor decision indeed.
 

Northampton_wolf

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The reporting deadline has to be the same for all PL clubs, and is aligned with the PL handbook, which defines that players contracts run on a July 1 - June 30 cycle. Most clubs also have financial reporting cycles running July - June for the same reason, and that’s why PwC do their annual review of football finances on the same cycle. Some clubs like Wolves have theirs running June - May, but that’s irrelevant to this regulation.

The most important aspect of this is that Forest knew what the reporting period was, and if they are to be believed, they chose not to sell Johnson within it in order to secure a higher sale price later in the summer. That’s their prerogative, but it’s a decision which now has consequences. If they now get a sizeable points deduction and are relegated as a result, then it was a very poor decision indeed.
importantly the window opened on the 14th June 2023 giving 2 weeks to act on sales,


if for example the window didnt open till JUly1st you could then argue different i guess, but still you should have sol in Jan then
 

Northampton_wolf

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Even we failed it would be minor 6pts not much worry for us
46.7m
18.1m

costs arent all included

but it would mean even with a 75m loss we are in by 1.1m

we end up on -103.9

Percy was pretty clear they expected it to be minus 65


This one notes 60 to 70m loss - so yep cutting it close as we are aware


Thats for this reporting year.

The reason we cant buy anyone is that 18m profit coming off, meaning we need profit. So you literally have to run a very tight ship.

But the nunes sale etc collins etc, in the window after JUly1st means will be fine.

Remember MGWs sale is within the 22-23 figures also - should help keep losses above 76.1m
 

Plovdiv Wolf

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46.7m
18.1m

costs arent all included

but it would mean even with a 75m loss we are in by 1.1m

we end up on -103.9

Percy was pretty clear they expected it to be minus 65


This one notes 60 to 70m loss - so yep cutting it close as we are aware


Thats for this reporting year.

The reason we cant buy anyone is that 18m profit coming off, meaning we need profit. So you literally have to run a very tight ship.

But the nunes sale etc collins etc, in the window after JUly1st means will be fine.

Remember MGWs sale is within the 22-23 figures also
We have nothing major to worry
 
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Aren’t we due extra cash from Forest for MGW or have we already had that? I seem to remember there were a couple of clauses; avoiding relegation (must have had that one) but then around another £10m for appearances?
Not sure how it works
 

SingYourHeartsOut

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46.7m
18.1m

costs arent all included

but it would mean even with a 75m loss we are in by 1.1m

we end up on -103.9

Percy was pretty clear they expected it to be minus 65


This one notes 60 to 70m loss - so yep cutting it close as we are aware


Thats for this reporting year.

The reason we cant buy anyone is that 18m profit coming off, meaning we need profit. So you literally have to run a very tight ship.

But the nunes sale etc collins etc, in the window after JUly1st means will be fine.

Remember MGWs sale is within the 22-23 figures also - should help keep losses above 76.1m
Here my only concern with us.

I thought we were running it close in 22/23 with maybe a £70m loss and then a huge profit this Summer mostly generated by selling Neves for £45m clear profit. With the wages off the books and other sales we should be comfortably in profit 23/24.

However if we are running it close including the sale of Neves in the 22/23 accounts, then that means we were on tract to potentially lose £100m+. So the profit for this season is £45m lower and the losses last season were potentially huge. If that was right, we'd need to improve the figures by £100m on a season where we sold Neves. That can't be right surely?
 

BlahBlah

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Which is what I assume Forest would argue, and I'm sure they will claim (with some justification) that because the date for the new regulation doesn't match with the club's accounting period, it doesn't give a true reflection of their financial position.

Might Wolves have argued that we also realised late, but took drastic action to make sure we fitted within the rules?
It could explain the Lopetegui situation where he felt he'd been misled and the goalposts had been moved.
 

Northampton_wolf

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Here my only concern with us.

I thought we were running it close in 22/23 with maybe a £70m loss and then a huge profit this Summer mostly generated by selling Neves for £45m clear profit. With the wages off the books and other sales we should be comfortably in profit 23/24.

However if we are running it close including the sale of Neves in the 22/23 accounts, then that means we were on tract to potentially lose £100m+. So the profit for this season is £45m lower and the losses last season were potentially huge. If that was right, we'd need to improve the figures by £100m on a season where we sold Neves. That can't be right surely?
we ran it close we really did, but we have nunes,collins etc sales plus no wages of costa mouts etc for this year 23-24, we havent done much business and we have again got loan salaries for players like sasa and fabio
 

SingYourHeartsOut

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we ran it close we really did, but we have nunes,collins etc sales plus no wages of costa mouts etc for this year 23-24, we havent done much business and we have again got loan salaries for players like sasa and fabio
But you're saying without the Neves sale we'd have lost £100m+ 22/23?
 

wolfslair

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But he didn't and he was sold which will impact positively on their year's accounts. I have no issue with the concept of the regulations but for me they should have been aligned with club's end of year accounts.

They willing fully and by choice chose to not do the deal in the window of time needed to have the money be used in the accounts needed.

Tough tits…..

There are clear dates and deadlines, the whole league operate to them. If you let them off that then when is the cut off to have a deal done by? A week, a month, a financial quarter?

Don’t knowingly break the rules and expect not to be punished!

Weak excuse…. They deserve any punishment they get.
 

wolfslair

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we ran it close we really did, but we have nunes,collins etc sales plus no wages of costa mouts etc for this year 23-24, we havent done much business and we have again got loan salaries for players like sasa and fabio

We really were ran very very poorly for the sales needed to be so reactionary, aggressive and Deep to squad depth……

They did well and corrected the issue, but questions need to be asked about why this was allowed to happen in the first place!

But let’s not act like Jeff is a master strategist and this was part of a plan! He corrected his **** ups so that we weren’t punished, but let’s not over praise Jeff and his emergency actions here….. as he very nearly ****ed the club completely……

He did well to correct the ship, but it is worrying how close we came to falling foul here. We are still hamstrung to improve the squad even with all of the sales and that isn’t very good financial planning is it?
 

wolfslair

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All I am reading about is FFP and is impacting all clubs its seems.

Serious question is this good for the game?

If an owner has lots of cash and wants to chuck it at a club then so be it. It seems we are in for a quiet January transfer window for all clubs with a few loans

It is good for the game, in one sense as.

But sadly the sky 6 will have an unfair advantage going forward for sometime to come, due to spending on squad building they were allowed to do to get there before the rules came into affect that gave them the brand and global fan bases that give them the revenue to be ahead of everyone that is going to be harder to replicate and achieve because it is harder to find the money to get onto that level for a sustained period to get the same consistent fan revenue.
 

NothingButNeto

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We really were ran very very poorly for the sales needed to be so reactionary, aggressive and Deep to squad depth……

They did well and corrected the issue, but questions need to be asked about why this was allowed to happen in the first place!

But let’s not act like Jeff is a master strategist and this was part of a plan! He corrected his **** ups so that we weren’t punished, but let’s not over praise Jeff and his emergency actions here….. as he very nearly ****ed the club completely……

He did well to correct the ship, but it is worrying how close we came to falling foul here. We are still hamstrung to improve the squad even with all of the sales and that isn’t very good financial planning is it?

It’s not that difficult to see why we were in that mess - it was Mendes pushing Jeff into dumb deals (worst examples being Fabio and Guedes).

Almost all of our recent major purchases and failures were Mendes links/clients.

This was facilitated further by a weak DoF in Sellars, who didn’t have any of the requisite skills for that job.

Now that we have Hobbs, with his experience in scouting, we have been making better purchases and ensuring that the players we sign actually want to be here.
 

wolfslair

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It’s not that difficult to see why we were in that mess - it was Mendes pushing Jeff into dumb deals (worst examples being Fabio and Guedes).

Almost all of our recent major purchases and failures were Mendes links/clients.

This was facilitated further by a weak DoF in Sellars, who didn’t have any of the requisite skills for that job.

Now that we have Hobbs, with his experience in scouting, we have been making better purchases and ensuring that the players we sign actually want to be here.

Promoting Hobbs at the time we did was major! He is well respected and had bigger clubs looking at him.

Him being in his post has me excited to see what the recruitment team can do!
 

Saltyjim

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But he didn't and he was sold which will impact positively on their year's accounts. I have no issue with the concept of the regulations but for me they should have been aligned with club's end of year accounts.
Agree with that to an extent. However, in terms of Forest's defence of selling Johnson at the end of the transfer window, you also have to take into account that they carried on buying players after the 30th June cut-off as well. I think they signed 13 all told and pretty sure most of them were towards the end of the window, including 7 on deadline day.
 

92WWFC

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Having found Forest fans to be deluded in the extreme for the last 18 months I'm suprised that they are actually blaming their owners rather than go the Everton route of rallying about injustice and bias.
 

Jefe

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It could have very easily been disaster for us on and off the pitch. Shi et al really did put us in quite a lot of danger with years of terrible decision making up until Nov 2022. Despite that things do appear to have worked out ok for us by hook or by crook (touch wood). We’ve had some luck within that though. Its clear in retrospect that we had to take some evasive action to get our house in order over the summer, but the comms on this really was absolutely terrible. I’m loathe also to give the club too much credit for doing so, since they dug the hole in the first place?
We were very lucky. Jeff could never have foreseen some mad Saudis with more money than sense, spaffing nearly £50m on a player who was on course to walk for free this Summer; I was expecting us to entertain bids as low as £25m for Neves. Considering how tight we've apparently come in in the end (even with £47m of 'pure' FFP profit), this transfer really was a minor miracle for the club. Without it, we would likely have had to sell several more first-teamers like Kilman, to the point where it really would have begun to look like a fire sale.
 
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