Everton, surely a points deduction?

[WW1963]

Anybody know what time tomorrow they announce what action they are taking?

04:30, hopefully. Woke up early for some reason.

 

[Big Saft Kid]

Haha.... well, maybe.... but we'll never know for sure!

Well, who am I to say? I "liked" your post along with another 20-odd Mixers!!

 

[Monk]

Dyche unaware of possible new financial charges

Sean Dyche says he is unaware if Everton are facing any charges regarding profit and sustainability rules relating to accounts submitted last month.

www.bbc.co.uk

BBC reporting Everton and Forest potentially breach FFP.

 

[SquaddieWolf]

Dyche unaware of possible new financial charges

Sean Dyche says he is unaware if Everton are facing any charges regarding profit and sustainability rules relating to accounts submitted last month.

www.bbc.co.uk

BBC reporting Everton and Forest potentially breach FFP.

Dyche unaware but everyone else in the country is aware lol

 

[Wolf in the sun]

it looks like, to me anyway, they are going after the low hanging fruit so when they they go after the "bigger" clubs there can be less arguments

 

[JadeWolf]

Anybody know what time tomorrow they announce what action they are taking?

I doubt they’ll announce any action yet, they’ll just confirm which teams they think have broken FFP. Then they’ll start the disciplinary process. It will be a long, long time I reckon before anything actually gets done.

 

[SA Wolf]

BBC Sport not reporting the issuance of the Premier League PSR report, other than 'Dyche is unaware'. Surprised it's not more newsworthy.

 

[wolfslair]

Dyche unaware but everyone else in the country is aware lol

He was unaware last time too….. allegedly lol

If that is true, he cannot have any relationship with the higher ups or anyone with any influence at Everton. as surely you hear rumblings?

 

[Wonder Boyo]

Happy PSR day everyone!

The opening of the PSR mitigation window every season is now where it is at. The days of the transfer window being the most exciting thing in football are officially over. I wonder what colour the PSR Mitigation scrolling banner will be on Sky Sports News?

 

[Frank Lincoln]

Never take my word for anything, but part of the issue Everton had was that the penalties were vague and not specifically defined. I think they were hoping for a financial penalty for breaking financial rules, which would have been be a farce.

So the PL decided to make guidance on the rule which is 6pts and 1 additional point for every £5m, Everton were found to be £19m over, although they admitted to about £7m I think so the appeal is a bit of a joke. The PL gave them 6+19/5=10 pt deduction.

If Forest were to be £30m over I think it would be 6+30/5=12 pt deduction. They won't be though, people are still adding up transfer deficits, which is meaningless and why they can't understand how , for example, Chelsea operate.

Will be interesting tomorrow though for sure.

I can't see we can be in trouble if Neves is in these accounts. Or that Forest's defence makes any sense, some of the rules are a bit odd, but nonetheless they are the rules. Everton were always bound to be in trouble as they (apparently) miscalculated their 21/22 loses and by the time that was cleared up, they'd finished 22/23, so were never going to be able to sort it out!

That's my take anyway!

Regarding the 1 point for every £5 million, if that is implemented then Nottingham Forest could be hit with a double figure point deduction. Whatever the outcome, Forest will have to sell a lot of players in the summer, or at least those that will command a good transfer fee, the obvious one being Morgan Gibbs-White. They really are in a mess.

 

[MattH]

Happy PSR day everyone!

The opening of the PSR mitigation window every season is now where it is at. The days of the transfer window being the most exciting thing in football are officially over. I wonder what colour the PSR Mitigation scrolling banner will be on Sky Sports News?

I hear Peter Odemwingie has already started his car and is driving to the high court.

 

[Superted]

The €75m last season is Transfermarkt's market value of the players that departed; Forest only brought in €5m from Brice Samba and 15 players worth of loan fees.
I doubt they got over €70m in loan fees to the likes of Cov, Guincamp and Wednesday.

22/23: €190m net spend

That £190m net spend would only translate to about £40-50m per year. They're still most likely screwed with only £61m to play with but it won't be to the tune of £130m.

 

[wolvesaywe]

The latest developments demonstrate how short-sighted Lopetegui was in leaving Wolves

He can go to most clubs now and find he has the same financial restrictions. United, Chelsea, Newcastle et al are all in the schtum with little wriggle room over the next year or so

He should have recognised the situation and been pragmatic, but instead chose to throw his dummy out

Well **** him. Gary O'Neil's barmy army

 

[wolfgar]

Whether by luck or judgement we appear to have got ourselves on the right side of the line. And what with GON turning out, against all expectations, to have been an inspired appointment, the club appears to be in a good place. Who'd have thunk it?

It could have very easily been disaster for us on and off the pitch. Shi et al really did put us in quite a lot of danger with years of terrible decision making up until Nov 2022. Despite that things do appear to have worked out ok for us by hook or by crook (touch wood). We’ve had some luck within that though.

Its clear in retrospect that we had to take some evasive action to get our house in order over the summer, but the comms on this really was absolutely terrible. I’m loathe also to give the club too much credit for doing so, since they dug the hole in the first place?

 

[Ginger Chimp]

I doubt they’ll announce any action yet, they’ll just confirm which teams they think have broken FFP. Then they’ll start the disciplinary process. It will be a long, long time I reckon before anything actually gets done.

All punishments and penalties have to occur during the current campaign.

 

[Ginger Chimp]

Happy PSR day everyone!

The opening of the PSR mitigation window every season is now where it is at. The days of the transfer window being the most exciting thing in football are officially over. I wonder what colour the PSR Mitigation scrolling banner will be on Sky Sports News?

Blood red.

 

[Halesowen wwfc]

It could have very easily been disaster for us on and off the pitch. Shi et al really did put us in quite a lot of danger with years of terrible decision making up until Nov 2022. Despite that things do appear to have worked out ok for us by hook or by crook (touch wood). We’ve had some luck within that though.

Its clear in retrospect that we had to take some evasive action to get our house in order over the summer, but the comms on this really was absolutely terrible. I’m loathe also to give the club too much credit for doing so, since they dug the hole in the first place?

Im in the same school of thought. Difficult to know how much credit to give the board over the summer. I remember at the end of last season Jonny Philips saying we needed to net 50m to be sorted, which after the sales of neves and coady we all thought job done. Hence why when there were further sales the doubt around fosuns strategy and were we up for sale etc kicked in, understandably as as far as we were concerned we had achieved what was needed to breach the gap. However it subsequently turned out we needed to be closer to 100m to get our house in order. Was that a severe miscalculation, or was the initial message of 50m communicated out by the club via Jonny a smokescreen to avoid mass panic and hysteria, which subsequently happened anyway.

 

[North West Wanderer]

The latest developments demonstrate how short-sighted Lopetegui was in leaving Wolves

He can go to most clubs now and find he has the same financial restrictions. United, Chelsea, Newcastle et al are all in the schtum with little wriggle room over the next year or so

He should have recognised the situation and been pragmatic, but instead chose to throw his dummy out

Well **** him. Gary O'Neil's barmy army

arrogant, self centred man.

 

[Ned]

Forest needed to spend when they went up because they went up with quality loan players who obviously were their best players. However, they panicked as soon as the window opened rather than identifying targets because they had a tiny squad. Players signed at the start of the window were finding themselves 2nd or 3rd choice by the end of it, crazy.

Everton just deserve everything they get. They had blatant disregard for the rules, cooked the books and now claiming to be hard done by with the spurious argument of “what about City?”.

 

[wolfslair]

Forest needed to spend when they went up because they went up with quality loan players who obviously were their best players. However, they panicked as soon as the window opened rather than identifying targets because they had a tiny squad. Players signed at the start of the window were finding themselves 2nd or 3rd choice by the end of it, crazy.

Everton just deserve everything they get. They had blatant disregard for the rules, cooked the books and now claiming to be hard done by with the spurious argument of “what about City?”.

The “what about city” defence is the football version of the chewbacca defence!

 

[woop woop barmy army]

All I am reading about is FFP and is impacting all clubs its seems.

Serious question is this good for the game?

If an owner has lots of cash and wants to chuck it at a club then so be it. It seems we are in for a quiet January transfer window for all clubs with a few loans

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Regarding the 1 point for every £5 million, if that is implemented then Nottingham Forest could be hit with a double figure point deduction. Whatever the outcome, Forest will have to sell a lot of players in the summer, or at least those that will command a good transfer fee, the obvious one being Morgan Gibbs-White. They really are in a mess.

Yes, although one of the weird part of the rules is that they are only allowed to lose about £60m in this cycle, but next year (assuming they're still in the Prem) it will be £85m with the first Champ season dropping out. So they could potentially lose a fair bit this season.

 

[Chisels_n_ommers]

Everton's argument - we didn't seek a sporting advantage, money was used to build the stadium.


Build stadium = more paying fans and revenue = more money to buy players = sporting advantage.

Laughable argument

 

[Halesowen wwfc]

Yes, although one of the weird part of the rules is that they are only allowed to lose about £60m in this cycle, but next year (assuming they're still in the Prem) it will be £85m with the first Champ season dropping out. So they could potentially lose a fair bit this season.

And they have the brennan johnson 50m to add to this years accounts

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

All I am reading about is FFP and is impacting all clubs its seems.

Serious question is this good for the game?

If an owner has lots of cash and wants to chuck it at a club then so be it. It seems we are in for a quiet January transfer window for all clubs with a few loans

Good for the clubs at the top when it was introduced.

Good for clubs who don't have owners who want to lose money.

Bad for owners who want to buy their way into the top table in the way Chelsea and City did.

 

[Northampton_wolf]

All I am reading about is FFP and is impacting all clubs its seems.

Serious question is this good for the game?

If an owner has lots of cash and wants to chuck it at a club then so be it. It seems we are in for a quiet January transfer window for all clubs with a few loans

I think the freeze on the allowance isnt good, given prices of players continue inflating, i do think they should revise the current three year rolling and increase with a player index inflation or something.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Everton's argument - we didn't seek a sporting advantage, money was used to build the stadium.


Build stadium = more paying fans and revenue = more money to buy players = sporting advantage.

Laughable argument

Even more laughable when you realise that infrastructure capital expenditure is excluded from the FFP calculation specifically to allow clubs to invest in their stadiums to benefit fans and increase matchday revenue, which is included. If you have some opaque loans to shady business people and the corporate equivalent of loan sharks to keep your club from going into administration, as Everton do, then you’re not going to get away with calling it infrastructure investment… especially if you tried to portray your accounts as something they’re not in order to escape FFP sanctions.

 

[Ponty]

Irrespective of any FFP stuff, Everton (and Forest obviously) have been splurging on expensive players instead of sorting out their operating costs which is baseline for any business..
Unless you get a very very cheap rate of interest, you don't pay for business operating costs with loans...it's basically telling everybody you can't run a business, have maxed out other loans taken to buy assets, and you're on the road to bankruptcy.
Who would invest in that, unless it's a distressed asset to be got at a knockdown price laden with debt?

I see Sean Dyche has come out and said the original charges "came out of the blue" although they were about 20% over the cap.
There have been fan websites run by supporters predicting this for years just by using transfer fee reports and a *******' calculator.
What were Everton themselves doing?

Lets not forget where all this came from. In the UK the change of rules to make sure that the taxpayer was not put at the back of the queue if clubs went bust, when dodgy owners just assumed any tax debt to the UK could just be ignored and the impact went on public services and loss of wealth for the country. HMRC can now shut them down if they think they're going to leave a trail of debt behind them....like with any other company in the UK in times of public hardship and a country on its backside regarding wealth.
FFP is just designed to make clubs who insist on running as a business without interference from any competition regulators, run as a business under safe financial rules.
And the rules are about maximum debt incurred....nobody's stopping them from borrowing or setting up whatever financial borrowing mechanisms they like to run their business...they're just saying when you go into dangerous territory we will punish you, so don't do it.
If a club is going over 105 million debt in 3 years (and that doesn't take into account overall debt which could be a lot lot higher), then it's pointing out that things are being run very badly right now. They have had a 3 year window, and should have taken action well before now to reduce debt...like Wolves did.

Don’t disagree with any of that but I think there are two other drivers behind it. Firstly it stops a smaller club challenging the establishment- see Newcastle for example. Secondly it makes it more likely going forwards that owners can make a profit as competitors can’t throw money around like confetti. The disparity in income between the Scum Six and the rest makes it almost inevitable they’ll continue to dominate the league.

 

[wolfgar]

Don’t disagree with any of that but I think there are two other drivers behind it. Firstly it stops a smaller club challenging the establishment- see Newcastle for example. Secondly it makes it more likely going forwards that owners can make a profit as competitors can’t throw money around like confetti. The disparity in income between the Scum Six and the rest makes it almost inevitable they’ll continue to dominate the league.

I was reading something the other day about which clubs voted for and against FFP (West Brom voted against incidentally, as did Man City. Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool, Utd and Chelsea all voted for FYI).

When it passed it was remarked that the key reason for FFP rules was to ensure financial stability and that we avoid another club doing a Portsmouth. Yes apparently that was really vitally important to some of the clubs I just mentioned, and was absolutely not them spotting that such rules might be quite advantageous to them and ensure them permanent seats at the head of the table?

 

[Plovdiv Wolf]

Good for the clubs at the top when it was introduced.

Good for clubs who don't have owners who want to lose money.

Bad for owners who want to buy their way into the top table in the way Chelsea and City did.

Good idea if you want to money ball like some club Brentford, Brighton

 

[Northampton_wolf]

I was reading something the other day about which clubs voted for and against FFP (West Brom voted against incidentally, as did Man City. Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool, Utd and Chelsea all voted for FYI).

When it passed it was remarked that the key reason for FFP rules was to ensure financial stability and that we avoid another club doing a Portsmouth. Yes apparently that was really vitally important to some of the clubs I just mentioned, and was absolutely not them spotting that such rules might be quite advantageous to them and ensure them permanent seats at the head of the table?

there is virtually no defence for breaching other than the covid defence everton had, its water tight rules, clear from the transparency of shi we know they are there we dont want to cross them

We had up to -80m we could lose last reporting year. Its been expected that we are in the region of 60 to 75m, so tight but under. With the profit coming off from previosu year, and the -47 odd already we have to make a small profit this year, so again we are budgeting for that hence big player sales and limited ins.

Makes sense really

What im suggesting is that everton and forest know they were going to and just disregarded but damage was already done before the meeting with the prem saying they were going to be harsh on it in Feb 2023.

Hence why we have seen so many more teams now be sensible with spending

 

[wolvesaywe]

I love this current band of brothers pulling on the old gold shirt. Honestly not bothered if we get anyone in or not

 

[wolfgar]

I love this current band of brothers pulling on the old gold shirt. Honestly not bothered if we get anyone in or not

Probably the most relaxed I've been about a transfer window for some time, but I would like to see a striker come in. Would be very disappointing to pick up a few injuries up top post Jan and the season fizzle out. No guarantees with a signing obvs, but would reduce the risk slightly if we can get someone decent. We'll see?

 

[Sussex Wolf]

I was reading something the other day about which clubs voted for and against FFP (West Brom voted against incidentally, as did Man City. Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool, Utd and Chelsea all voted for FYI).

When it passed it was remarked that the key reason for FFP rules was to ensure financial stability and that we avoid another club doing a Portsmouth. Yes apparently that was really vitally important to some of the clubs I just mentioned, and was absolutely not them spotting that such rules might be quite advantageous to them and ensure them permanent seats at the head of the table?

You could add to that, I think, that with UEFA introducing FFP rules for their competitions, English clubs who routinely compete in them would feel disadvantaged if other PL clubs didn’t have to worry about FFP while not competing in Europe. Of course that wouldn’t stop the Wolves or Leicester scenario of an upstart club qualifying out of the blue and not being financially prepared for UEFA’s rules.

 

[Stourport wolf]

Football isn't what it was. The decisions are being made behind closed doors, both on the pitch and off the pitch.
The excitement of football was the moment. You scored a goal it was a goal, you gained points you had gained points, you were a position in the the league, it was your position in the league. It was like if you had won, you knew you had won, that was the excitement of football.
Now, you are never sure about anything, if it is a goal, if you are safe in the league. Decisions now are made behind closed doors. They have taken away the excitement of the moment for me.

 

[Northampton_wolf]

Premier League clubs set to find out profit and sustainability fate

Clubs are expected to find out later today whether they have been charged under the Premier Leagues profitability and sustainability regulations (P&S); Everton and Nottingham Forest are thought to be the clubs most at risk; Everton were deducted ten points in November for PSR breach

www.skysports.com

This will update today with details, i dont know if they will be able to get leaks of all clubs running 3 years values.

More likely just where each club is if they have breached (forest and everton)

 

[GoldenHorseshoe]

arrogant, self centred man.

It's completely obvious that he didn't care about the club at all.

 

[wolfslair]

Everton's argument - we didn't seek a sporting advantage, money was used to build the stadium.


Build stadium = more paying fans and revenue = more money to buy players = sporting advantage.

Laughable argument

A well paid barrister would have come up with that…..

If you ever have dealings with a barrister and some solicitors, their ability to try and spin a banged to rights guilty client into looking innocent is something to behold sometimes! They try to twist how they are guilty into how they are the actually aggrieved party is incredible!

It is the kind of creative writing and narrative weaving that Hollywood is missing!

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Premier League clubs set to find out profit and sustainability fate

Clubs are expected to find out later today whether they have been charged under the Premier Leagues profitability and sustainability regulations (P&S); Everton and Nottingham Forest are thought to be the clubs most at risk; Everton were deducted ten points in November for PSR breach

www.skysports.com

This will update today with details, i dont know if they will be able to get leaks of all clubs running 3 years values.

More likely just where each club is if they have breached (forest and everton)

I'm confused as to whether there is actually an announcement or just a letter to clubs involved. The lack of transparency is the one constant of the PL.

 

[St. Lukes Reserves]

And they have the brennan johnson 50m to add to this years accounts

Which is what I assume Forest would argue, and I'm sure they will claim (with some justification) that because the date for the new regulation doesn't match with the club's accounting period, it doesn't give a true reflection of their financial position.