When does Kenny get questioned on his decisions?

[Mr Wolf]

Yeah it's called being a football manager, you know that thing they are paid millions to do but again the point isn't the players read again, hit & miss don't care but he went for the more expensive options so he had the money, or should he have spent more on some other flops like Delort is that what people are wanting.

 

[Deleted member 3573J]

Anymore players who had a good season to hand pick out and use against him? Why didn't he sign Wilson from Coventry in the summer of 2013 instead of going for him the following year for example? He could have had him for less than £500k.

 

[Mr Wolf]

You're not getting it that's fine I'll try once more.

Posters are saying Moxey/Morgan money this & that ok, so I've replied we had the opportunity to pick up some players cheaper than the ones we bought, they were better for less money, understood?

So how 'Morgan open the purse strings' would that have helped us, use Wilson/Grabben if you like they cost £3m but aren't as good as Afobe (imo).

Again we have 3 player absorbing about 45k per week who aren't even in the squad from our last spending spree so you all need get on board with this approach or go support Villa with their Billionaire owner because it's becoming tiredsome.

If KJ can't find a loan/free/£1m/anything player better to play on the left than Edwards than we're in for a long season. The fact he couldn't replace Clarke last year doesn't fill me with hope either even though he's had longer to scout a left sided Gray/Coady/Wilson.

 

[Oh When the Wolves]

You're not getting it that's fine I'll try once more.

Posters are saying Moxey/Morgan money this & that ok, so I've replied we had the opportunity to pick up some players cheaper than the ones we bought, they were better for less money, understood?

So how 'Morgan open the purse strings' would that have helped us, use Wilson/Grabben if you like they cost £3m but aren't as good as Afobe (imo).

Again we have 3 player absorbing about 45k per week who aren't even in the squad from our last spending spree so you all need get on board with this approach or go support Villa with their Billionaire owner because it's becoming tiredsome.

If KJ can't find a loan/free/£1m/anything player better to play on the left than Edwards than we're in for a long season. The fact he couldn't replace Clarke last year doesn't fill me with hope either even though he's had longer to scout a left sided Gray/Coady/Wilson.

Good post .football managing isn't just about put spending other clubs for players any member of the public would pick

 

[MOLINEUXWOLFIE]

You're not getting it that's fine I'll try once more.

Posters are saying Moxey/Morgan money this & that ok, so I've replied we had the opportunity to pick up some players cheaper than the ones we bought, they were better for less money, understood?

So how 'Morgan open the purse strings' would that have helped us, use Wilson/Grabben if you like they cost £3m but aren't as good as Afobe (imo).

Again we have 3 player absorbing about 45k per week who aren't even in the squad from our last spending spree so you all need get on board with this approach or go support Villa with their Billionaire owner because it's becoming tiredsome.

If KJ can't find a loan/free/£1m/anything player better to play on the left than Edwards than we're in for a long season. The fact he couldn't replace Clarke last year doesn't fill me with hope either even though he's had longer to scout a left sided Gray/Coady/Wilson.

Not sure who's asked to splash the cash, have however pointed out that something is holding KJ back from adding to a squad which is pretty threadbare in positions where quality/proven players are needed to carry on the momentum built up the last 2 seasons.

 

[Deleted member 3573J]

You're not getting it that's fine I'll try once more.

Posters are saying Moxey/Morgan money this & that ok, so I've replied we had the opportunity to pick up some players cheaper than the ones we bought, they were better for less money, understood?

So how 'Morgan open the purse strings' would that have helped us, use Wilson/Grabben if you like they cost £3m but aren't as good as Afobe (imo).

Again we have 3 player absorbing about 45k per week who aren't even in the squad from our last spending spree so you all need get on board with this approach or go support Villa with their Billionaire owner because it's becoming tiredsome.

If KJ can't find a loan/free/£1m/anything player better to play on the left than Edwards than we're in for a long season. The fact he couldn't replace Clarke last year doesn't fill me with hope either even though he's had longer to scout a left sided Gray/Coady/Wilson.

I understand, you're picking out Jackett's poor buys, finding some players he could have had for half the price who've just had a decent season at our level to try and prove he's being well backed.

Go and support Villa. Brilliant haha.

 

[Mugwump]

Jackett isnt the head of recruitment, Thelwell is. It's up to him to bring the players to KJ. If we aren't finding good players that KJ is happy with that's Thelwells problem. It's not rocket science yet some people don't get it.

 

[Skrilla]

You're not getting it that's fine I'll try once more.

Posters are saying Moxey/Morgan money this & that ok, so I've replied we had the opportunity to pick up some players cheaper than the ones we bought, they were better for less money, understood?

So how 'Morgan open the purse strings' would that have helped us, use Wilson/Grabben if you like they cost £3m but aren't as good as Afobe (imo).

Again we have 3 player absorbing about 45k per week who aren't even in the squad from our last spending spree so you all need get on board with this approach or go support Villa with their Billionaire owner because it's becoming tiredsome.

If KJ can't find a loan/free/£1m/anything player better to play on the left than Edwards than we're in for a long season. The fact he couldn't replace Clarke last year doesn't fill me with hope either even though he's had longer to scout a left sided Gray/Coady/Wilson.

The fact you think KJ is responsible for not finding players is really embarrassing to read, do you know we have a team of scouts and head of recruitment? Did you also ever stop to think KJ might be working on limited funds and that he has a track record for performing well under strict financial constraints like at Millwall where he kept them in the Championship for over five years on a shoestring budget? It is no coincidence they were relegated last season.

 

[goldenwolf69]

The fact you think KJ is responsible for not finding players is really embarrassing to read, do you know we have a team of scouts and head of recruitment? Did you also ever stop to think KJ might be working on limited funds and that he has a track record for performing well under strict financial constraints like at Millwall where he kept them in the Championship for over five years on a shoestring budget? It is no coincidence they were relegated last season.

Exactly.
Morgan couldn't believe his luck when KJ took the job.

Imagine how well KJ could do without the financial constraints.
We can only live in hope.

 

[reanswolf]

What points did you disagree with earlier you quoted , or can't you support your argument ?

You've just got an anti-Jackett agenda, but you're too blind to see it.:embarassed:

 

[Oh When the Wolves]

As Tring posted yesterday Jacket has an excellent record in the transfer market

You've st got an anti-Jackett agenda, but you're too blind to see it.:embarassed:

Not at all . I like him

 

[Mr Wolf]

The fact you think KJ is responsible for not finding players is really embarrassing to read, do you know we have a team of scouts and head of recruitment? Did you also ever stop to think KJ might be working on limited funds and that he has a track record for performing well under strict financial constraints like at Millwall where he kept them in the Championship for over five years on a shoestring budget? It is no coincidence they were relegated last season.

He's not the only one but it's his head on the line should we fail, I'd be willing to bet we have scouted plenty of strikers but you can't tell me it was Thelwell or anyone else pushing for Chris Wood. As known it's Jackets decision on all transfers so yes he is responsible. Thelwell is mostly an academy scout, it seems he brings in the youngsters.

Again budget/money like that solves all problems, he/they have had a year to scout strikers & we've still only got 2. Blame Moxey & Thewell if you like but KJ will be the one paying when results go poor from the lack of squad depth again.

 

[Mr Wolf]

I understand, you're picking out Jackett's poor buys, finding some players he could have had for half the price who've just had a decent season at our level to try and prove he's being well backed.

Go and support Villa. Brilliant haha.

Yeah, other clubs can pick up decent left wingers for small fees so why can't we. Why do we neglect these glaring holes in the squad?

 

[Chungster]

He's not the only one but it's his head on the line should we fail, I'd be willing to bet we have scouted plenty of strikers but you can't tell me it was Thelwell or anyone else pushing for Chris Wood. As known it's Jackets decision on all transfers so yes he is responsible. Thelwell is mostly an academy scout, it seems he brings in the youngsters.

Again budget/money like that solves all problems, he/they have had a year to scout strikers & we've still only got 2. Blame Moxey & Thewell if you like but KJ will be the one paying when results go poor from the lack of squad depth again.

KT: Got one for you Kenny.

KJ: Sorry, don't fancy him.

KT: Got another for you Kenny.

KJ: Sorry, don't fancy him. I've got one of mine own though. What do you think Jez?

JM: Sorry, too much but you can have either of Kevin's.

KJ: I have to say I'm not really convinced by....

JM: (interrupts) ....and you do realise you'll get the sack if either of them turns out to be ****.

 

[Tring Wolf]

Classic, chased Wood all summer, Clayton, Delort, Tonev, Sagbo, Graham along with Clarke & McAlinden don't point to the board at all.

Andre Gray was 650k, Donaldson was free, both these players scored about 15 goals last season at smaller littler clubs so don't give me that budget board money wages line because we went on to buy Afobe for 2 mill.

For the record I'm not on about his signings, hit & miss doesn't bother me that's football. But saying he hasn't been backed when he's chased expensive poorer players than the cheaper better alternatives doesn't make sense to me if Morgan hasn't given him he money.

Let's not forget Thelwell who I believe deals with the youth squad mostly has brought in some good players also.

I don't care if they have Stafford Rangers' budget to find players, even league 2 clubs have better alternatives to Edwards on the left wing & some kid called Ried up front from the bench.

I don't think you can say that 'hit and miss doesn't bother you' and 'that's football' in the same post as saying that we should have gone for Gray and Donaldson (I'm presuming you chose those two because they went on to have good seasons at their new clubs). Based on that logic, we could have also signed Nick Proschwitz and Wes Thomas for even less than those two...

You could equally reverse your argument and say that having not been able to bring in more expensive targets, he then went out and signed successful players for cheaper. McDonald at a quarter of the price of Murphy. Dicko at £250k when we could have had Joe Garner for £1.5m. Afobe at an initial £1.5m vs Delort at £2.5m. The argument works (and is equally flawed) both ways.

If you put yourself in KJ's shoes last Summer, when faced with a choice of Chris Wood (a 22 year-old who you had got the best out of and had scored 11 goals in 16 games for you in this division) or Donaldson (approaching 30 and had an inferior record to Clarke who was already here) or Gray (prolific but at non-League level), who would have gone for? I totally get the logic of us waiting to try and get our top target in that particular instance, and that's why I give the Club a bit of a pass on the whole for that situation.

Of the others you mentioned, we had Clayton on trial and decided he wasn't an improvement on what we had and that Crewe's valuation of him when he was at a similar stage of his progression to Liam McAlinden was unrealistic (that's football). Delort would have been scouted and recommended by our Recruitment Team (or touted by an Agent) and according to Delort's club, the deal fell through because we couldn't match the wages being offered by Wigan (not sure how any of that is the Head Coach's fault). Toney, we actually did a favour to by not signing and Graham wasn't available until later in the season.

You also intimate that it is KJ's fault that we haven't brought in a left-winger and striker. As others have said, the whole point of our move to having a Director of Football and revamped Recruitment Team is to avoid the set-up we had under Mick where one man (and his personally chosen scouts) had carte blanche over the club's transfer policy. There are obviously players that KJ has had more of an input over (Afobe, McDonald, Ricketts, Henry, Golbourne) based on either working with them before or chasing them previously at Millwall but there are only so many players that he will have that knowledge of. So unless we want our next striking targets to be Steve Morison, Gary Alexander or Jason Scotland, the Manager requires a huge degree of support from that (full-time) recruitment team and scouting network. The majority of Jackett's time is spent in the dressing-room and on the training ground, and he will fit in scouting missions around that (as he did with Wallace). He's not going to be spending most of his day visiting foreign clubs, lower-league clubs (even Stafford Rangers) trying to unearth a hidden gem.

The fact that we haven't brought someone in yet suggests that either we haven't been able to attract them due to wages or their vision of their role at the club (Wood) or that the Manager doesn't believe that some of the alternatives being proposed to him are better than what we already have.

I have always believed money is there (within reason) but he is working under much tighter constraints than his predecessors and against an increasing number of clubs who can offer far higher transfer fees and wages than before. Given those constraints, the fact that his net transfer spend here is currently actually negative and that he has had to oversee a huge reduction in the wage bill during his tenure, I think he's got a hell of a lot more right than he has wrong so far.

 

[Mr Wolf]

Spin it how you want, he's the one getting sacked not the scouting team you would have to say. You could equally name players who cost less who went on to be poor it makes no difference to the point that he had money but nobody came, he's not very clever in the market imo. You have no idea who has put these constraints on him, as said do the accountants care if it's one player on 20k or 2 on 10k, I doubt it.

Funny how all the signings that come off & are good are his but the ones that fail or never happen is down to anyone else. Somebody said the other day (Alex) that KJ would never sign a player unles it was on Thelwels list haha.

He'd better have something decent up his sleeve this next month because watching average players slot into unfamiliar positions & no changes or subs being made because the bench is poor will have fans not turn up.

 

[Vietnam Wolf]

I'd like to see a reply to Chungster's question about Thelwell. What's the point of him ? nice knitted cardigan aside.

Jackett has done his fair share of identifying targets especially in League 1 where he had an encyclopedic knowledge of the talent down there. If Thelwell subsequently identified Afobe and Coady then fair play to him, Afobe wasn't too difficult to "spot" in fairness. It seems Thelwell is some kind of glorified "chief scout" that doesn't manage to really find very much. What about Sako's replacement ? Is he also overseeing the Academies ?

If Thelwell is the transfer guy why are people blaming Jackett who you'd have thought would be pretty busy with his day job, yet still manages to contribute to recruitment, eg Ricketts, Henry, Golbourne and probably McDonald amongst others.

 

[Tring Wolf]

Spin it how you want, he's the one getting sacked not the scouting team you would have to say. You could equally name players who cost less who went on to be poor it makes no difference to the point that he had money but nobody came, he's not very clever in the market imo. You have no idea who has put these constraints on him, as said do the accountants care if it's one player on 20k or 2 on 10k, I doubt it.

Funny how all the signings that come off & are good are his but the ones that fail or never happen is down to anyone else. Somebody said the other day (Alex) that KJ would never sign a player unles it was on Thelwels list haha.

He'd better have something decent up his sleeve this next month because watching average players slot into unfamiliar positions & no changes or subs being made because the bench is poor will have fans not turn up.

You are of course right in that it will eventually be the Manager who gets sacked. As you say, 'that's football', but it doesn't really answer the question as to whose fault it was/is as to why we haven't got players in (or even in some cases if there is any blame at all).

Let's take the left-wing situation. I know of 3 left-wingers that we have shown interest in.

1. Zyro - scouted but apparently KJ unsure as to whether he would fit in with our style of play and stories that the player himself wants to sign for a club in a higher division;

2. Ameobi - chose Cardiff over us allegedly due a clause in the contract stating he would always play.

3. Un-named Championship Winger (I'm saying un-named as there is still a chance we may go back in for him) - rejects our offer due to wages.

Is the Head Coach to blame in any of those situations (not wanting to spend £1.5m on a player he isn't sure fits in with his plans, a contractual clause and wages that don't match/improve the player's current wage at Championship level)?

In our current model of working, who is then responsible for identifying and scouting other targets, and subsequently for leading the negotiations to agree terms?

 

[Mugwump]

I don't think you can say that 'hit and miss doesn't bother you' and 'that's football' in the same post as saying that we should have gone for Gray and Donaldson (I'm presuming you chose those two because they went on to have good seasons at their new clubs). Based on that logic, we could have also signed Nick Proschwitz and Wes Thomas for even less than those two...

You could equally reverse your argument and say that having not been able to bring in more expensive targets, he then went out and signed successful players for cheaper. McDonald at a quarter of the price of Murphy. Dicko at £250k when we could have had Joe Garner for £1.5m. Afobe at an initial £1.5m vs Delort at £2.5m. The argument works (and is equally flawed) both ways.

If you put yourself in KJ's shoes last Summer, when faced with a choice of Chris Wood (a 22 year-old who you had got the best out of and had scored 11 goals in 16 games for you in this division) or Donaldson (approaching 30 and had an inferior record to Clarke who was already here) or Gray (prolific but at non-League level), who would have gone for? I totally get the logic of us waiting to try and get our top target in that particular instance, and that's why I give the Club a bit of a pass on the whole for that situation.

Of the others you mentioned, we had Clayton on trial and decided he wasn't an improvement on what we had and that Crewe's valuation of him when he was at a similar stage of his progression to Liam McAlinden was unrealistic (that's football). Delort would have been scouted and recommended by our Recruitment Team (or touted by an Agent) and according to Delort's club, the deal fell through because we couldn't match the wages being offered by Wigan (not sure how any of that is the Head Coach's fault). Toney, we actually did a favour to by not signing and Graham wasn't available until later in the season.

You also intimate that it is KJ's fault that we haven't brought in a left-winger and striker. As others have said, the whole point of our move to having a Director of Football and revamped Recruitment Team is to avoid the set-up we had under Mick where one man (and his personally chosen scouts) had carte blanche over the club's transfer policy. There are obviously players that KJ has had more of an input over (Afobe, McDonald, Ricketts, Henry, Golbourne) based on either working with them before or chasing them previously at Millwall but there are only so many players that he will have that knowledge of. So unless we want our next striking targets to be Steve Morison, Gary Alexander or Jason Scotland, the Manager requires a huge degree of support from that (full-time) recruitment team and scouting network. The majority of Jackett's time is spent in the dressing-room and on the training ground, and he will fit in scouting missions around that (as he did with Wallace). He's not going to be spending most of his day visiting foreign clubs, lower-league clubs (even Stafford Rangers) trying to unearth a hidden gem.

The fact that we haven't brought someone in yet suggests that either we haven't been able to attract them due to wages or their vision of their role at the club (Wood) or that the Manager doesn't believe that some of the alternatives being proposed to him are better than what we already have.

I have always believed money is there (within reason) but he is working under much tighter constraints than his predecessors and against an increasing number of clubs who can offer far higher transfer fees and wages than before. Given those constraints, the fact that his net transfer spend here is currently actually negative and that he has had to oversee a huge reduction in the wage bill during his tenure, I think he's got a hell of a lot more right than he has wrong so far.

One of the best posts ever on here.

 

[Wolves in Limerick]

Tring, you appear to know details about what goes on behind the scenes at the club. When Glen Hoddle left it was as I viewed it a decision made on the basis that the club had sold on a number of key players at that time and with the end of payments following our relegation three seasons previously. Was Mick at least for his first season subject to constraints as severe or perhaps even more severe than Kenny in his first season at the club? Secondly and I recall you went through a list of Mick's signings for the club at one time seeing who was successful and who was not. My query here again centres on his first year in charge. Given the situation he found the club in on taking over from GH, were not a number of his signings at that time 'emergency/stop gap' signings. You may have in your analysis at the time noted this and apologies if you did. It strikes me however that if you list these players as failures that you may be somewhat unfair to Mick in this respect.

 

[Mugwump]

Spin it how you want, he's the one getting sacked not the scouting team you would have to say. You could equally name players who cost less who went on to be poor it makes no difference to the point that he had money but nobody came, he's not very clever in the market imo. You have no idea who has put these constraints on him, as said do the accountants care if it's one player on 20k or 2 on 10k, I doubt it.

Funny how all the signings that come off & are good are his but the ones that fail or never happen is down to anyone else. Somebody said the other day (Alex) that KJ would never sign a player unles it was on Thelwels list haha.

He'd better have something decent up his sleeve this next month because watching average players slot into unfamiliar positions & no changes or subs being made because the bench is poor will have fans not turn up.

It's not hard to find out who are KJ signings and who aren't. He seems make the point either it's somebody who has played for him before ( Ricketts, Afobe, Saville, Henry ) or somebody he has had on his radar before he came to Wolves ( Jacobs, Golbourne, McDonald ). Unless I am missing somebody, the rest are Thelwell players.

 

[Tring Wolf]

Tring, you appear to know details about what goes on behind the scenes at the club. When Glen Hoddle left it was as I viewed it a decision made on the basis that the club had sold on a number of key players at that time and with the end of payments following our relegation three seasons previously. Was Mick at least for his first season subject to constraints as severe or perhaps even more severe than Kenny in his first season at the club? Secondly and I recall you went through a list of Mick's signings for the club at one time seeing who was successful and who was not. My query here again centres on his first year in charge. Given the situation he found the club in on taking over from GH, were not a number of his signings at that time 'emergency/stop gap' signings. You may have in your analysis at the time noted this and apologies if you did. It strikes me however that if you list these players as failures that you may be somewhat unfair to Mick in this respect.

Hi WiL. I am extremely rarely 'ITK' about the current goings on at the club (although I hear bits from other posters who are), and certainly wasn't around the time of Hoddle's departure and Mick's arrival.

To me, Mick's achievements in that first season were arguably his best during his time here and some of the signings in that season were superb (Kightly, Breen, Ward, Keogh etc). Others didn't have quite such a big impact but he was undoubtedly working under tighter constraints than he did the subsequent two years following Morgan's takeover.

The one thing that has changed massively since Mick's time is the move to the Director of Football model and a separate scouting team, which was a conscious decision by the Club to move away from the scenario whereby just one person had full autonomy over our transfer policy. So whereas before, Mick would have his own scouting set-up, the Director of Football model is in place to supposedly ensure continuity in the type of players we are targeting.

 

[Mugwump]

Tring, you appear to know details about what goes on behind the scenes at the club. When Glen Hoddle left it was as I viewed it a decision made on the basis that the club had sold on a number of key players at that time and with the end of payments following our relegation three seasons previously. Was Mick at least for his first season subject to constraints as severe or perhaps even more severe than Kenny in his first season at the club? Secondly and I recall you went through a list of Mick's signings for the club at one time seeing who was successful and who was not. My query here again centres on his first year in charge. Given the situation he found the club in on taking over from GH, were not a number of his signings at that time 'emergency/stop gap' signings. You may have in your analysis at the time noted this and apologies if you did. It strikes me however that if you list these players as failures that you may be somewhat unfair to Mick in this respect.

Unless it's a loan signing, or a short term contract wouldn't any stop gap signing only be such if they were a failure? If they were a success then they would be at the club for a couple of seasons at least.

 

[Woburn Wolf]

I don't think you can say that 'hit and miss doesn't bother you' and 'that's football' in the same post as saying that we should have gone for Gray and Donaldson (I'm presuming you chose those two because they went on to have good seasons at their new clubs). Based on that logic, we could have also signed Nick Proschwitz and Wes Thomas for even less than those two...

You could equally reverse your argument and say that having not been able to bring in more expensive targets, he then went out and signed successful players for cheaper. McDonald at a quarter of the price of Murphy. Dicko at £250k when we could have had Joe Garner for £1.5m. Afobe at an initial £1.5m vs Delort at £2.5m. The argument works (and is equally flawed) both ways.

If you put yourself in KJ's shoes last Summer, when faced with a choice of Chris Wood (a 22 year-old who you had got the best out of and had scored 11 goals in 16 games for you in this division) or Donaldson (approaching 30 and had an inferior record to Clarke who was already here) or Gray (prolific but at non-League level), who would have gone for? I totally get the logic of us waiting to try and get our top target in that particular instance, and that's why I give the Club a bit of a pass on the whole for that situation.

Of the others you mentioned, we had Clayton on trial and decided he wasn't an improvement on what we had and that Crewe's valuation of him when he was at a similar stage of his progression to Liam McAlinden was unrealistic (that's football). Delort would have been scouted and recommended by our Recruitment Team (or touted by an Agent) and according to Delort's club, the deal fell through because we couldn't match the wages being offered by Wigan (not sure how any of that is the Head Coach's fault). Toney, we actually did a favour to by not signing and Graham wasn't available until later in the season.

You also intimate that it is KJ's fault that we haven't brought in a left-winger and striker. As others have said, the whole point of our move to having a Director of Football and revamped Recruitment Team is to avoid the set-up we had under Mick where one man (and his personally chosen scouts) had carte blanche over the club's transfer policy. There are obviously players that KJ has had more of an input over (Afobe, McDonald, Ricketts, Henry, Golbourne) based on either working with them before or chasing them previously at Millwall but there are only so many players that he will have that knowledge of. So unless we want our next striking targets to be Steve Morison, Gary Alexander or Jason Scotland, the Manager requires a huge degree of support from that (full-time) recruitment team and scouting network. The majority of Jackett's time is spent in the dressing-room and on the training ground, and he will fit in scouting missions around that (as he did with Wallace). He's not going to be spending most of his day visiting foreign clubs, lower-league clubs (even Stafford Rangers) trying to unearth a hidden gem.

The fact that we haven't brought someone in yet suggests that either we haven't been able to attract them due to wages or their vision of their role at the club (Wood) or that the Manager doesn't believe that some of the alternatives being proposed to him are better than what we already have.

I have always believed money is there (within reason) but he is working under much tighter constraints than his predecessors and against an increasing number of clubs who can offer far higher transfer fees and wages than before. Given those constraints, the fact that his net transfer spend here is currently actually negative and that he has had to oversee a huge reduction in the wage bill during his tenure, I think he's got a hell of a lot more right than he has wrong so far.

Agree 100%.

 

[Vietnam Wolf]

Great post Tringo ... I think your theory is probably correct. You've clearly given it a lot of thought. Something not everyone does on here myself included.

 

[Edgmond Wolf]

Great post Tring

 

[Mr Wolf]

Tighter constraints, wages that's all we hear on here, funny how we got Coady to sign but I guess all these left wingers must want 15k plus, probably 3/4 times what they're on now.

 

[Tring Wolf]

Tighter constraints, wages that's all we hear on here, funny how we got Coady to sign but I guess all these left wingers must want 15k plus, probably 3/4 times what they're on now.

No. As I said earlier, one was wages (and he is currently at a similar sized transfer Championship club), one was apparently due to a contractual clause and the other KJ wasn't sure on.

So in your eyes, whose responsibility is it to (a) identify the left-wing targets that meet the recruitment/wages criteria and (b) lead the negotiations to bring them here?

And yes, there are restraints relative to his predecessors. The last first-team left winger we signed was Sako who was on £20k, which is now supposedly way more than we are prepared to pay.

As you yourself earlier, it is KJ whose neck will ultimately be on the line so why would he not want to bring players in for those positions? The only logical reasons I can think of are that we either haven't met the wages required, haven't sold the vision of the club particularly well to those targets or that the Head Coach believes that a number of the targets aren't better than what is currently here.

I'm not debating that there is money (within reason) to spend. I've always believed that there is and continue to do so. I just don't think we have done a particularly great job at getting some of our top targets in.

 

[Skrilla]

I don't think you can say that 'hit and miss doesn't bother you' and 'that's football' in the same post as saying that we should have gone for Gray and Donaldson (I'm presuming you chose those two because they went on to have good seasons at their new clubs). Based on that logic, we could have also signed Nick Proschwitz and Wes Thomas for even less than those two...

You could equally reverse your argument and say that having not been able to bring in more expensive targets, he then went out and signed successful players for cheaper. McDonald at a quarter of the price of Murphy. Dicko at £250k when we could have had Joe Garner for £1.5m. Afobe at an initial £1.5m vs Delort at £2.5m. The argument works (and is equally flawed) both ways.

If you put yourself in KJ's shoes last Summer, when faced with a choice of Chris Wood (a 22 year-old who you had got the best out of and had scored 11 goals in 16 games for you in this division) or Donaldson (approaching 30 and had an inferior record to Clarke who was already here) or Gray (prolific but at non-League level), who would have gone for? I totally get the logic of us waiting to try and get our top target in that particular instance, and that's why I give the Club a bit of a pass on the whole for that situation.

Of the others you mentioned, we had Clayton on trial and decided he wasn't an improvement on what we had and that Crewe's valuation of him when he was at a similar stage of his progression to Liam McAlinden was unrealistic (that's football). Delort would have been scouted and recommended by our Recruitment Team (or touted by an Agent) and according to Delort's club, the deal fell through because we couldn't match the wages being offered by Wigan (not sure how any of that is the Head Coach's fault). Toney, we actually did a favour to by not signing and Graham wasn't available until later in the season.

You also intimate that it is KJ's fault that we haven't brought in a left-winger and striker. As others have said, the whole point of our move to having a Director of Football and revamped Recruitment Team is to avoid the set-up we had under Mick where one man (and his personally chosen scouts) had carte blanche over the club's transfer policy. There are obviously players that KJ has had more of an input over (Afobe, McDonald, Ricketts, Henry, Golbourne) based on either working with them before or chasing them previously at Millwall but there are only so many players that he will have that knowledge of. So unless we want our next striking targets to be Steve Morison, Gary Alexander or Jason Scotland, the Manager requires a huge degree of support from that (full-time) recruitment team and scouting network. The majority of Jackett's time is spent in the dressing-room and on the training ground, and he will fit in scouting missions around that (as he did with Wallace). He's not going to be spending most of his day visiting foreign clubs, lower-league clubs (even Stafford Rangers) trying to unearth a hidden gem.

The fact that we haven't brought someone in yet suggests that either we haven't been able to attract them due to wages or their vision of their role at the club (Wood) or that the Manager doesn't believe that some of the alternatives being proposed to him are better than what we already have.

I have always believed money is there (within reason) but he is working under much tighter constraints than his predecessors and against an increasing number of clubs who can offer far higher transfer fees and wages than before. Given those constraints, the fact that his net transfer spend here is currently actually negative and that he has had to oversee a huge reduction in the wage bill during his tenure, I think he's got a hell of a lot more right than he has wrong so far.

Definitely how I see it Tring. There is money there, but it is within reason. Do not expect us to spend £4-5m on a player, but if the right player comes across and ticks all the boxes like Coady and Afobe did, we are willing to pay a fair amount.

 

[reanswolf]

Tring, quality points. No wonder you were poster of the year my mate.

Realistic, expressive, rational, never confrontational or patronising, incisive, all those qualities, and unlike many of us........intelligent :adore:.

Equal top poster of the year this year, along with Goldeneyed for me.

 

[Deleted member 4456]

I think what Tring is saying is close to the truth. KJ has always known that he was going to carry the can for the mistakes of his predecessors. I wonder what he would've made of the money they wasted?

 

[Mr Wolf]

No. As I said earlier, one was wages (and he is currently at a similar sized transfer Championship club), one was apparently due to a contractual clause and the other KJ wasn't sure on.

So in your eyes, whose responsibility is it to (a) identify the left-wing targets that meet the recruitment/wages criteria and (b) lead the negotiations to bring them here?

And yes, there are restraints relative to his predecessors. The last first-team left winger we signed was Sako who was on £20k, which is now supposedly way more than we are prepared to pay.

As you yourself earlier, it is KJ whose neck will ultimately be on the line so why would he not want to bring players in for those positions? The only logical reasons I can think of are that we either haven't met the wages required, haven't sold the vision of the club particularly well to those targets or that the Head Coach believes that a number of the targets aren't better than what is currently here.

I'm not debating that there is money (within reason) to spend. I've always believed that there is and continue to do so. I just don't think we have done a particularly great job at getting some of our top targets in.

It's Jackets job as he's the one responsible for the first team, he's the one coaching the players, picking them & telling them what he wants from them, how they fit into his plans etc. You can say we haven't scouted the right players for him & that's whoevers fault or we haven't offered the right deal for other players but ultimately it's KJ who needs to step up & take this thing by the scruff of the neck or he's out. You could tell last summer the whole Wilson thing seemed to catch him out, nobody can deny that. If he had truly wanted him Moxey & Morgan would back him easily from what I know.

I'm sure selling our top training facilities, great fans with big home & away crowds is not that difficult to players who have gone to lesser clubs.

We are again 2 players away & it's frustrating because we all know we'll be saying the same thing in January once again.

 

[Wednesbury Wolf]

I'm sure selling our top training facilities, great fans with big home & away crowds is not that difficult to players who have gone to lesser clubs.

Can you imagine a player saying I am signing for Wolves because although they're paying **** wages they do have a nice training ground and lovely fans.

99.99999% of players go for money nothing else, and who can blame them.

 

[Mr Wolf]

Can you imagine a player saying I am signing for Wolves because although they're paying **** wages they do have a nice training ground and lovely fans.

99.99999% of players go for money nothing else, and who can blame them.

That was in response to the 'haven't sold the vision of the club line' in fairness.

 

[Skrilla]

Can you imagine a player saying I am signing for Wolves because although they're paying **** wages they do have a nice training ground and lovely fans.

99.99999% of players go for money nothing else, and who can blame them.

Exactly, money talks.

 

[goldenwolf69]

I don't think you can say that 'hit and miss doesn't bother you' and 'that's football' in the same post as saying that we should have gone for Gray and Donaldson (I'm presuming you chose those two because they went on to have good seasons at their new clubs). Based on that logic, we could have also signed Nick Proschwitz and Wes Thomas for even less than those two...

You could equally reverse your argument and say that having not been able to bring in more expensive targets, he then went out and signed successful players for cheaper. McDonald at a quarter of the price of Murphy. Dicko at £250k when we could have had Joe Garner for £1.5m. Afobe at an initial £1.5m vs Delort at £2.5m. The argument works (and is equally flawed) both ways.

If you put yourself in KJ's shoes last Summer, when faced with a choice of Chris Wood (a 22 year-old who you had got the best out of and had scored 11 goals in 16 games for you in this division) or Donaldson (approaching 30 and had an inferior record to Clarke who was already here) or Gray (prolific but at non-League level), who would have gone for? I totally get the logic of us waiting to try and get our top target in that particular instance, and that's why I give the Club a bit of a pass on the whole for that situation.

Of the others you mentioned, we had Clayton on trial and decided he wasn't an improvement on what we had and that Crewe's valuation of him when he was at a similar stage of his progression to Liam McAlinden was unrealistic (that's football). Delort would have been scouted and recommended by our Recruitment Team (or touted by an Agent) and according to Delort's club, the deal fell through because we couldn't match the wages being offered by Wigan (not sure how any of that is the Head Coach's fault). Toney, we actually did a favour to by not signing and Graham wasn't available until later in the season.

You also intimate that it is KJ's fault that we haven't brought in a left-winger and striker. As others have said, the whole point of our move to having a Director of Football and revamped Recruitment Team is to avoid the set-up we had under Mick where one man (and his personally chosen scouts) had carte blanche over the club's transfer policy. There are obviously players that KJ has had more of an input over (Afobe, McDonald, Ricketts, Henry, Golbourne) based on either working with them before or chasing them previously at Millwall but there are only so many players that he will have that knowledge of. So unless we want our next striking targets to be Steve Morison, Gary Alexander or Jason Scotland, the Manager requires a huge degree of support from that (full-time) recruitment team and scouting network. The majority of Jackett's time is spent in the dressing-room and on the training ground, and he will fit in scouting missions around that (as he did with Wallace). He's not going to be spending most of his day visiting foreign clubs, lower-league clubs (even Stafford Rangers) trying to unearth a hidden gem.

The fact that we haven't brought someone in yet suggests that either we haven't been able to attract them due to wages or their vision of their role at the club (Wood) or that the Manager doesn't believe that some of the alternatives being proposed to him are better than what we already have.

I have always believed money is there (within reason) but he is working under much tighter constraints than his predecessors and against an increasing number of clubs who can offer far higher transfer fees and wages than before. Given those constraints, the fact that his net transfer spend here is currently actually negative and that he has had to oversee a huge reduction in the wage bill during his tenure, I think he's got a hell of a lot more right than he has wrong so far.

Very well said.

It is embarrassing to read so called supporters slagging off KJ.

 

[Mr Wolf]

Asking him to improve our transfer situation & say look we are weaker than last season I need this & that otherwise we'll get left behind so make it happen is not slagging him off. He needs to point out what we need, where we are falling short & get it dealt with.

 

[Deleted member 3604]

They seem to operate within a strict financial model and it's clear to see that as the financial situation has become less precarious they have spent more. The signings of Saville, Rowe and VLP were at a time when the wage bill was much higher. These young and hungry, match ready players are it appears £2M+ (Coady, Afobe). The final third of last season suggested real progression and as such my judgment on KJ is excellent job done. Hopefully a couple more on the way and more progression from the likes of Iorfa, Landell, Price and Evans. Have complete faith money can and will be spent on the right player at the right time. The right time is most likely now ! More in's and out's required.

 

[Skrilla]

Asking him to improve our transfer situation & say look we are weaker than last season I need this & that otherwise we'll get left behind so make it happen is not slagging him off. He needs to point out what we need, where we are falling short & get it dealt with.

It is fact we targeted Chris Wood & Sammy Ameobi. That's a left winger and striker. He knows what we need and where we are falling short. Getting it dealt with is a lot more complicated and while you can instantly point the blame at KJ for our inactivity, perhaps the reason why is because we have a strict criteria for players, or maybe even that KJ is working on a very restricted budget now.

Unless Moxey/SM comes out and states that Kenny is being backed but hasn't found the right players he wants, I don't think you can blame KJ at all. It wouldn't surprise me at all if we went down the route of loaning a couple of players in because the funds aren't there for KJ to utilise like you seem to think he does.

 

[Mr Wolf]

Again if he can't get players in under these circumstances whatever they may be then somebody else will.