Welcome Notice

Hello and welcome to Molineux Mix a forum for Wolves fans by Wolves fans.

Register Log in

Today’s Games 2023-2024

groundhogwolf

groundhogwolf

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
3,031
Reaction score
4,417
Monketron said:
If you put your foot up that high and make contact with another player than it is a foul, even if you win the ball. The onus is on the person choosing to put their foot high to make sure it doesn't endanger another player. Just like how some bicycle kicks are fine and others are called up for dangerous play.
Click to expand...
Have to agree on the old bicycle kick, as a centre half that got kicked in the face, way more dangerous than heading the ball.
 
T

Thank you Sir Jack

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
May 30, 2007
Messages
8,227
Reaction score
12,945
Wonder Boyo said:
The thing I like about the Villa forum is that they are a very level-headed sensible bunch. Always consider the season as a whole in order to keep all results in perspective. We could learn a thing or two from them on the Mix

View attachment 41071
Click to expand...
Love the extraneous full stop. So only one half was ****e. Also the use of capitals, a sure sign of someone a few sandwiches short of a picnic.
 
wolfgar

wolfgar

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Dec 6, 2015
Messages
5,688
Reaction score
8,789
So if you listen to Villa fans on twitter, Mcginns was never a red card, and if you listen to Liverpool fans they should have had a last minute penalty.

Firstly with Mcginn he goes in recklessly and aggressively with zero intent to win the ball. I'm not sure he or they can have any actual complaints really. Saw some fans suggesting an appeal, which would be a monumental waste of time.

With regards to the Doku incident, he's high and follows through a bit. Might have been harsh, but I think that is 100% given against any time outside the top 6, which in and of itself is quite messed up?
 
Frank Lincoln

Frank Lincoln

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Aug 8, 2012
Messages
25,175
Reaction score
35,183
SingYourHeartsOut said:
Yes, I mean having cogitated, it could be a pen, although I think McAllister has made the most of it (understandably) and maybe Oliver would have given it elsewhere on the pitch, where it wouldn't have been basically deciding the game. For a pen he needs to be sure and I think although it could be a pen, it isn't an obvious pen, so Atwell (much as it pains me to say it) is correct not to intervene.

My broader point is that VAR has stopped being used to overturn 40-60 judgement calls, and the game is all the better for it.
Click to expand...

I agree that it would have been a foul anywhere else on the pitch, but as I have said previously, the penalty area is part of the pitch and a foul is a foul irrespective of where it occurred.

I also think that had it not been Liverpool v Manchester City, then the referee would have given a penalty. The last thing he wanted was a major controversy in such a high profile game.
 
SingYourHeartsOut

SingYourHeartsOut

"Its less confusing with a smaller brain"
Joined
Aug 11, 2012
Messages
38,214
Reaction score
37,046
Frank Lincoln said:
I agree that it would have been a foul anywhere else on the pitch, but as I have said previously, the penalty area is part of the pitch and a foul is a foul irrespective of where it occurred.

I also think that had it not been Liverpool v Manchester City, then the referee would have given a penalty. The last thing he wanted was a major controversy in such a high profile game.
Click to expand...
The line about 'anywhere else on the pitch' gets used a lot (sure I've done it myself), but the reality is that the threshold for a penalty is higher than for a free kick. Sure it would be very hard for the Oliver to give a marginal penalty in the last minute of added time (albeit to the home team), Mike Dean would probably have probably struck a pose and pointed towards the spot, but my main point was that the VAR (useless Atwell) didn't bottle it, it wasn't a clear error, pundits I've seen are fairly split, so not much to see. Sure if I were a Liverpool fan I'd be outraged of course!
 
Frank Lincoln

Frank Lincoln

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Aug 8, 2012
Messages
25,175
Reaction score
35,183
SingYourHeartsOut said:
The line about 'anywhere else on the pitch' gets used a lot (sure I've done it myself), but the reality is that the threshold for a penalty is higher than for a free kick. Sure it would be very hard for the Oliver to give a marginal penalty in the last minute of added time (albeit to the home team), Mike Dean would probably have probably struck a pose and pointed towards the spot, but my main point was that the VAR (useless Atwell) didn't bottle it, it wasn't a clear error, pundits I've seen are fairly split, so not much to see. Sure if I were a Liverpool fan I'd be outraged of course!
Click to expand...

Fair comment, but as I said to a friend earlier, where in the laws of the game does it say there must be a higher threshold for a penalty to be given? Maybe I am old school, but a foul is a foul. I presume this higher threshold is another of Howard Webbs brainwaves.

My personal view is that as Doku got a touch on the ball, then it was not a foul, he can’t help the natural follow through of his leg. But the cynic inside me says that had it been Liverpool v Wolves, then the penalty would have been given. I don’t think it had anything to do with thresholds, just the referee and VAR being desperate not to have a major controversy in such a game.
 
SingYourHeartsOut

SingYourHeartsOut

"Its less confusing with a smaller brain"
Joined
Aug 11, 2012
Messages
38,214
Reaction score
37,046
Frank Lincoln said:
Fair comment, but as I said to a friend earlier, where in the laws of the game does it say there must be a higher threshold for a penalty to be given? Maybe I am old school, but a foul is a foul. I presume this higher threshold is another of Howard Webbs brainwaves.

My personal view is that as Doku got a touch on the ball, then it was not a foul, he can’t help the natural follow through of his leg. But the cynic inside me says that had it been Liverpool v Wolves, then the penalty would have been given. I don’t think it had anything to do with thresholds, just the referee and VAR being desperate not to have a major controversy in such a game.
Click to expand...
Yes, not in the laws, but since it would have been pretty much the last kick of the game, it would have been a massive decision. I just think that means that Oliver wants to be certain, which is how it should be for me. Halfway line 51/49 call, make a decision, give the free kick. Penalty in the 96th minute, has to be 80/20 at least.
 
Frank Lincoln

Frank Lincoln

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Aug 8, 2012
Messages
25,175
Reaction score
35,183
SingYourHeartsOut said:
Yes, not in the laws, but since it would have been pretty much the last kick of the game, it would have been a massive decision. I just think that means that Oliver wants to be certain, which is how it should be for me. Halfway line 51/49 call, make a decision, give the free kick. Penalty in the 96th minute, has to be 80/20 at least.
Click to expand...

I agree that a referee must be as certain as possible before awarding a penalty kick. My main concern is did he not give it because of the two teams involved, in which case that is wrong. I don’t think the referee was certain about the penalty he gave Sheffield United against Wolves earlier in the season, in fact I think he guessed, and yet VAR backed him up. As I said, had that been one of the so called lesser teams, then I am sure a penalty would have been given.
 
W

Watfordfc

Has a lot to say
Joined
Apr 21, 2021
Messages
1,637
Reaction score
1,894
I think had it been MC winning they would given it but as the game was level they “bottled the call”

I am sure the audio will be out soon!
 
T

thommo1984

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Jul 18, 2020
Messages
3,067
Reaction score
7,231
Watfordfc said:
Presume he wasn’t joining in with the John McGinn song you can hear them singing before the red card came out ?
Click to expand...
They continued to sing him off the pitch too. Absolutely bizarre behaviour after such a braindead moment which could easily cost them Champions League qualification. Football fans are weird.
 
Monketron

Monketron

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Jan 22, 2013
Messages
5,708
Reaction score
9,968
SingYourHeartsOut said:
Yes, not in the laws, but since it would have been pretty much the last kick of the game, it would have been a massive decision. I just think that means that Oliver wants to be certain, which is how it should be for me. Halfway line 51/49 call, make a decision, give the free kick. Penalty in the 96th minute, has to be 80/20 at least.
Click to expand...

Despite thinking it was a pen I don't disagree with this sentiment either.
 
S

Sketchead

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Apr 30, 2011
Messages
11,336
Reaction score
10,989
Honestly don't think McGinn's red was more than a yellow yesterday tbh. If he went in with his studs then yeah, but he took a frustrated swipe. Suspect the reaction of the bench and opposition got him a red, at which point you couldn't really overturn it.
 
S

Sirstancullis

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2016
Messages
416
Reaction score
774
thommo1984 said:
They continued to sing him off the pitch too. Absolutely bizarre behaviour after such a braindead moment which could easily cost them Champions League qualification. Football fans are weird.
Click to expand...

Didn't lots of our fans applaud Nathan Collins off when he karate kicked Grealish last season?
 
T

thommo1984

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Jul 18, 2020
Messages
3,067
Reaction score
7,231
Monketron

Monketron

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Jan 22, 2013
Messages
5,708
Reaction score
9,968
Sketchead said:
Honestly don't think McGinn's red was more than a yellow yesterday tbh. If he went in with his studs then yeah, but he took a frustrated swipe. Suspect the reaction of the bench and opposition got him a red, at which point you couldn't really overturn it.
Click to expand...

Way too much force behind it and given he deliberately kicked the player and didn't really go for the ball it's hard to argue against a red. Could have broke the guys leg, lucky it was in the air at the point of contact and not planted.
 
Mile End Wanderer

Mile End Wanderer

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Feb 3, 2016
Messages
18,839
Reaction score
18,396
Monketron said:
Way too much force behind it and given he deliberately kicked the player and didn't really go for the ball it's hard to argue against a red. Could have broke the guys leg, lucky it was in the air at the point of contact and not planted.
Click to expand...
It was dangerous and that’s why it was a red. Stupid tackle to make but when ya losing he saw red and hopefully will continue to do so. Little rattled cage at vile park
 
C

Contrarian

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Jul 14, 2018
Messages
15,037
Reaction score
23,136
Frank Lincoln said:
Fair comment, but as I said to a friend earlier, where in the laws of the game does it say there must be a higher threshold for a penalty to be given? Maybe I am old school, but a foul is a foul. I presume this higher threshold is another of Howard Webbs brainwaves.
Click to expand...

Something that's really become clear since this drive to make eveything 100% objective, is how much of the game wasn't actually defined in a way that was consistently applied. There were all sorts of unrwritten rules that were applied. Players knew them. And it was a reason why international tounaments could have controversial decisions as different nations would have different interpretations of the unwritten rules.

Straightforward things like just blowing the final whistle. Was it ever written in the rules that refs should wait till an attack was finished, or the ball was in the middle? Or that if a corner was won with 5 seconds left, then the corner would be taken and the attacking team allowed another 10 seconds? Or till the ball is in a "safe" place away from any chance of a goal? The rules state nothing on this - it is the referees decision when to blow the final whistle. Occasionally, they have blown the whistle just as a player shoots, and a goal is scored , so the disallow it as the match had ended. That may seem crazy, but surely, if the letter of the law is applied to offsides, hence goals disallowed for being 2mm offside, then a goal score 0.5 seconds after the final whistle should also be disallowed? Do refs use common sense or the strict letter of the law? A corner awarded with 5 seconds left, the whistle should go exactly 5 seconds after the corner is taken, though refs will invariably allow more (I haven't got over the injustice of a Chelsea goal against us a few years ago, that was scored 20 seconds after a corner that was taken well after injury time was up. Whistle blown as soon as the goal was scored. )

And that's just one example. With regard to penalties, due to the hop, skip, jumping technique, the scoring rate of penalties is now significantly higher than it used to be. When a referee awards a penalty in the Premier League, he is effectively awarding a goal. As long as that is the case, I'm OK with their being a higher threshold for penalties. Because linked to above, if we are going to letter of the law rather than spirit of the law, then it has to be applied everywhere. Else it isn't the letter of the law, it's selective again! At least let some of the spirit of the law live on without killing it off completely.

Penalties need looking at in general. There are far too many these days, probably half of them being initiated by attackers. We have attackers deliberately smashing the ball at defenders trying to get hand balls. And we have attackers putting themselves in positions where they will get kicked on the follow through, also to try and get a penalty. I think there may have been an aspect of this in the Liverpool/City incident. Anywhere else on the pitch, the attacker may well have stepped back, instead of sticking his face in the way of the opponents boot!

I'm wondering if we shouldn't go back to more indirect free kicks in the penalty area, instead of all these soft penalties where the attacking team going nowhere, somehow blags a goal, merely by falling over a defenders leg. Also, prior to that incident Salah did one blatant dive and there were a couple of others from Liverpool that looked like dives. Should be retrospective three match bans for that.

Players are mostly to blame for everything wrong with the officiating these days. For every mistake by a ref that gets analysed to death by the media, there are 20 deliberate attempts at cheating by players that get a free pass. "There was contact" is turning into a pathetic apology for incessant cheating.
 
B

bully9

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2014
Messages
810
Reaction score
1,109
Sketchead said:
Honestly don't think McGinn's red was more than a yellow yesterday tbh. If he went in with his studs then yeah, but he took a frustrated swipe. Suspect the reaction of the bench and opposition got him a red, at which point you couldn't really overturn it.absolute ****** he ment it end of
Click to expand...
 
Bryce

Bryce

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
May 18, 2022
Messages
2,805
Reaction score
5,025
It’s a crude Sunday morning hack and the obnoxious little weed deserved red

In fact there should be a mcginn card just for being mcginn
 
SingYourHeartsOut

SingYourHeartsOut

"Its less confusing with a smaller brain"
Joined
Aug 11, 2012
Messages
38,214
Reaction score
37,046
Contrarian said:
Something that's really become clear since this drive to make eveything 100% objective, is how much of the game wasn't actually defined in a way that was consistently applied. There were all sorts of unrwritten rules that were applied. Players knew them. And it was a reason why international tounaments could have controversial decisions as different nations would have different interpretations of the unwritten rules.

Straightforward things like just blowing the final whistle. Was it ever written in the rules that refs should wait till an attack was finished, or the ball was in the middle? Or that if a corner was won with 5 seconds left, then the corner would be taken and the attacking team allowed another 10 seconds? Or till the ball is in a "safe" place away from any chance of a goal? The rules state nothing on this - it is the referees decision when to blow the final whistle. Occasionally, they have blown the whistle just as a player shoots, and a goal is scored , so the disallow it as the match had ended. That may seem crazy, but surely, if the letter of the law is applied to offsides, hence goals disallowed for being 2mm offside, then a goal score 0.5 seconds after the final whistle should also be disallowed? Do refs use common sense or the strict letter of the law? A corner awarded with 5 seconds left, the whistle should go exactly 5 seconds after the corner is taken, though refs will invariably allow more (I haven't got over the injustice of a Chelsea goal against us a few years ago, that was scored 20 seconds after a corner that was taken well after injury time was up. Whistle blown as soon as the goal was scored. )

And that's just one example. With regard to penalties, due to the hop, skip, jumping technique, the scoring rate of penalties is now significantly higher than it used to be. When a referee awards a penalty in the Premier League, he is effectively awarding a goal. As long as that is the case, I'm OK with their being a higher threshold for penalties. Because linked to above, if we are going to letter of the law rather than spirit of the law, then it has to be applied everywhere. Else it isn't the letter of the law, it's selective again! At least let some of the spirit of the law live on without killing it off completely.

Penalties need looking at in general. There are far too many these days, probably half of them being initiated by attackers. We have attackers deliberately smashing the ball at defenders trying to get hand balls. And we have attackers putting themselves in positions where they will get kicked on the follow through, also to try and get a penalty. I think there may have been an aspect of this in the Liverpool/City incident. Anywhere else on the pitch, the attacker may well have stepped back, instead of sticking his face in the way of the opponents boot!

I'm wondering if we shouldn't go back to more indirect free kicks in the penalty area, instead of all these soft penalties where the attacking team going nowhere, somehow blags a goal, merely by falling over a defenders leg. Also, prior to that incident Salah did one blatant dive and there were a couple of others from Liverpool that looked like dives. Should be retrospective three match bans for that.

Players are mostly to blame for everything wrong with the officiating these days. For every mistake by a ref that gets analysed to death by the media, there are 20 deliberate attempts at cheating by players that get a free pass. "There was contact" is turning into a pathetic apology for incessant cheating.
Click to expand...
What an excellent post. Just to be picky on the corners, the clock doesn't stop, so if time keeping was just a matter of blowing up on the correct time then you wouldn't even have to give it 5 seconds, could just blow as the guy ran up to take it! Like the higher threshold for a pen, it's accepted as common sense not written down, or you could literally have the ref blow as the ball was on its way into the top corner. I hate all the 'well in rugby....' type posts, but maybe they have it right on stopping the game? The whole 'retrospective action for diving' thing seemed to vanish with VAR, presumably on the basis that nobody can con the ref now as the VAR will spot that.
 
WolvesAndCows

WolvesAndCows

Has a lot to say
Joined
May 9, 2023
Messages
1,922
Reaction score
2,631
Monketron said:
Way too much force behind it and given he deliberately kicked the player and didn't really go for the ball it's hard to argue against a red. Could have broke the guys leg, lucky it was in the air at the point of contact and not planted.
Click to expand...
Could have broke his own leg!
 
B

brianm

Has a lot to say
Joined
Aug 17, 2023
Messages
1,228
Reaction score
2,299
The McGinn challenge honestly reminds me of Vinnie Jones. It's such a cowardly play too. Just lining a lad up to have a whack like he's in muay thai. The ball is well on the other side of Udogi's body even...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom