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The Tory Narrative

Pengwern

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Just watching Tory Conference. Hammond, the second richest MP with over £8m net personal wealth, mostly drawn from his company Castlemead, which took advantage of Thatcher's Health Privatisation to start building Doctor's surgeries within Housing Developments in the early 1990s, provided more detail to flesh out what leading Tories have been saying the last few days in response to Corbyn's comment that Capitalism has lost its legitimacy.

Hammond went straight for the 1970s, calling it the type of society Corbyn and McDonnell want to return to, and arguing that the British people dumped it in 1979 because state directed economics just does not work, 'reminding' us that Labour had to go 'cap in hand' to the IMF in 1975-6 for a loan to keep its dysfunctional economics going. Capitalism, or "the free market economy" as the new narrative prefers to call it, is the only known source of economic progress which can deliver rising living standards to people. The Tory claim is that living standards have doubled since 1979 How is that measured, I wonder?), and that Capitalism has since delivered huge economic success to countries which were formally part of the 'third world'.

Most of this is grounded in nothing more than claims of self-evident truth, asserted as a "history lesson", despite its highly selective version of the 1970s, which totally ignores the monetary effects of Nixon's marketisation of the dollar in 1970 and the 29-fold rise in oil prices in the 1970s, which is what tipped the post-war mixed economies into inflationary crisis and forced Capitalism to choose its gung-ho option: neoliberal globalisation.

The Tories also rely too much on language - euphemisms for their own politically-motivated relaxation of selected austerity mechanisms, such " paying for this by the normal governmental means of issuing gilts, which are lent out to bring in funds", which very few voters understand, whereas Corbyn's suggestions of funding social spending, which would use this self-same mechanism is dubbed "irresponsible borrowing".

All this is really a re-hashing of the propaganda the Tories have used before; the key to its previous success is far less to do with the organic resonance or applicability of its core messages and much more to do with the availability to them of mass communications outlets in private hands that are willing to repeat it ad nauseam, so that it becomes lodged in peoples' minds and becomes a staple of public debate. TINA was not built in a day or by the Tories alone.

This is further grist to the mill of the argument that we are in a new era in which basic political issues centred around the kind of society and governmental mechanisms we want have returned to centre stage, displacing economistic demands characteristic of the wage militancy of the 1960s and 1970s. Developments in Catalonia confirm not only this but that the tide of history is also with the self-determination of alienated minorities within imposed nation states. Québécois are already celebrating the immense gains made by Catalans so far; Scots must surely be purring inwardly or overtly. Walloons, East Germans, Sunnis and all the other myriad groups that have been forced into nation states run by others and often discriminatory towards them are likely to press their secessionary demands with more confidence than before, leading to a new round of fracturing of the the nation state template following the 1990s one.

The world is changing very quickly indeed!
 

maws

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Don't worry the unbiased press will obviously question his assertions, won't they?

Welcome to democracy
 

WolfLing

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He may even truly believe what he is saying. After all, that model has been proven to work out very well for him!

No doubt it would continue to work very well for some others too. But at the same time the gap between those it works for and those it doesn't would widen further.

I've been fortunate enough to visit America a couple of times during my life and both times I was shocked by the gulf between the rich and the poor.

It just feels that is where we are heading unfortunately.
 

GY Wolf

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Are you saying that tories bend the truth?

Great analysis Pengwern.
 

Pengwern

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One mind boggling fact always annoys me about the Conservative conference and that is the cost to be there starts at £520.00.
Labour's similar cost is £110.00 or £ 64.00 if you are retired or unwaged.
Clearly a sign the Conservative conference is for the few not the many

https://conservativepartyconference.com/registration
Wow! Confirms that they naturally tend towards assuming meritocracy lies behind economic or social success! No wonder their empathy is almost always skin deep!
 

Big Nosed Wolf

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What Hammond's speech portrays above all else is the broken, juvenile, yah booing that is our (in this case) government and the outdated party political nonsense we have to try and live with.

The chanting of Corbyn's name in true North Korean style is becoming a little unsettling, while the ludicrous liberals still think they might get in to government, while mainly bleating on about getting the referendum right. That is try for another until the right answer is given.

Meanwhile UKIP is on another leader who is ex army and no -one has a clue who he is and the Green's might as well be shouting from a dinghy in the middle of the Pacific for all anyone listens.

If we can't get a federal UK how about all MP's have to be independent? Those who want to be in a political party can be but wont be let anywhere near legislative power. Let them have 'think tanks' which are put to the independent MP's who then take any draft policy back to their constituencies for 'the people' to have their say. This should be relatively easy using internet polling and media sites. Once a percentage of the electorate give their views it can go back to the now independent House of Commons for further debate and drawing up of said policy legislation. Or something along those lines.

The problem. It gives too much power to the unwashed and the (majority) who don't give a flying fig about being 'on message' or being 'right honourable' but just want to live with a real voice in what happens with the services they pay for.

It just won't do that sort of non patronising realism.M'luds and ladies couldn't get their heads around it. Nor is it embroidered with snowflakes.
 

Andy

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The chanting of Corbyn's name in true North Korean style is becoming a little unsettling

People chant Corbyn's name because they believe in his ideas, in North Korea they chant because if they don't they disappear.

There's nothing 'North Korean' about it at all.
 

ricki herberts moustache

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Meanwhile UKIP is on another leader who is ex army and no -one has a clue who he is and the Green's might as well be shouting from a dinghy in the middle of the Pacific for all anyone listens.

Ah, that explains the mournful wailing I heard drifting in from the ocean the other day. And there I was thinking it came from Australian rugby fans
 

Big Nosed Wolf

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People chant Corbyn's name because they believe in his ideas, in North Korea they chant because if they don't they disappear.

There's nothing 'North Korean' about it at all.

He got my vote at the last election. It doesn't mean I want to kiss his feet. Nor should anyone else. I tried to vote on policy. As that is almost impossible in this country due to false promises or manifesto's which contain too much of something and nothing on anything else because those said policies are not 'red' enough' or 'blue' enough and takes it 'off message' or whatever 'they' think they can get into power with. Before sliding policy around to their indoctrinated versions when in power.

There should be no place for such blind chanting and creeping idolatry in a grown up, democratic 'rich' nation state. It smacks of celebrity culture at best, something a bit more sinister at worst.

One individual should not be held up as a 'saviour.' One very well known one was crucified a couple of thousand years ago.
 

maws

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One individual should not be held up as a 'saviour.' One very well known one was crucified a couple of thousand years ago.


A saviour? If a saviour had been crucified as you describe them why aren't we in a flawless world, saved from our sins? Off topic I know but
 

Big Nosed Wolf

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A saviour? If a saviour had been crucified as you describe them why aren't we in a flawless world, saved from our sins? Off topic I know but

Because there's no such thing as a 'saviour'. Only in the minds of humans who need one. Corbyn is fitting the bill in unhealthy manner.

Politics means policies not personalities. At least not personality of the 'saviour' genre.
 

maws

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Because there's no such thing as a 'saviour'. Only in the minds of humans who need one. Corbyn is fitting the bill in unhealthy manner.

Politics means policies not personalities. At least not personality of the 'saviour' genre.
I'm confused to where there are people calling him a saviour? A breath of fresh air, a socialist or even not part of the established political elite that we usually have to suffer in government roles, yes. There were less people singing his name than would sing Stevie Bulls no tatter, on a Saturday
 

Andy

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He got my vote at the last election. It doesn't mean I want to kiss his feet. Nor should anyone else. I tried to vote on policy. As that is almost impossible in this country due to false promises or manifesto's which contain too much of something and nothing on anything else because those said policies are not 'red' enough' or 'blue' enough and takes it 'off message' or whatever 'they' think they can get into power with. Before sliding policy around to their indoctrinated versions when in power.

There should be no place for such blind chanting and creeping idolatry in a grown up, democratic 'rich' nation state. It smacks of celebrity culture at best, something a bit more sinister at worst.

One individual should not be held up as a 'saviour.' One very well known one was crucified a couple of thousand years ago.

I don't think that anyone wants to kiss his feet, I agree with most of what you say.

As I say, I don't think anyone is viewing him as a saviour, or worshipping him. He's making waves due to his ideas in my opinion.
 

maws

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IMO there is a big danger of it becoming or even sounding like 'triumphalism' and that went down well when Kinnock went all USA at Sheffield, you could feel the votes disappearing.
Corbyn has stayed to left once leader of the opposition, kinnock wanted to go centralist
 

Big Nosed Wolf

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I'm confused to where there are people calling him a saviour? A breath of fresh air, a socialist or even not part of the established political elite that we usually have to suffer in government roles, yes. There were less people singing his name than would sing Stevie Bulls no tatter, on a Saturday

What would you call a hall full of people chanting the name of a (supposedly) future Prime Minister? It is a form of Idolatry that has no place in the important business of building a more just society.

Policies. You know those boring things which actually might make a difference. He is no 'breath of fresh air' to those who remember a socialist party and government, (sort of). Because we recognise some of those policies which actually did make a difference for a while.

Here's another thing. As thingy said on question time. What is wrong with having a socialist leader of a socialist party? What we have to try to decide is will we have someone who. once in power (if) will commence that 'sliding' I was on about? He has a shadow chancellor who is a confirmed Marxist. Honest of course and nothing wrong with that. Whether our leaders should attach themselves to such ideology is open to question.

I prefer a more independent, non 'partisan', method of policy making. Based on what needed rather than what's 'good' for us.

Steve Bull was a footballer at a ****ing football match. Where you might expect such a thing, nay want it.
 
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maws

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What would you call a hall full of people chanting the name of a (supposedly) future Prime Minister? It is a form of Idolatry that has no place in the important business of building a more just society.

Policies. You know those boring things which actually might make a difference. He is no 'breath of fresh air' to those who remember a socialist party and government, (sort of). Because we recognise some of those policies which actually did make a difference for a while.

Hers another thing. As thingy said on question time. What is wrong with having a socialist leader of a socialist party? What we have to try to decide is will we have someone who. once in power (if) will commence that 'sliding' I was on about? He has a shadow chancellor who is a confirmed Marxist. Honest of course and nothing wrong with that. Whether our leaders should attach themselves to such ideology is open to question.

I prefer a more independent, non 'partisan', method of policy making. Based on what needed rather than what's 'good' for us.

Steve Bull was a footballer at a ****ing football match. Where you might expect such a thing, nay want it.
Obviously your view is so more worthy than mine it's one of those where you're being all high and mighty (you have form on being told this) that wasting my night to try and counter your over the top claims, isn't worth my time.
 

derbyrameater

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A really interesting article on how Thatcherism no longer works, so unless The Conservatives try something new, this brand of capitalism is destined to fail.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ies-thatcher-treasury-cupboard-bare?CMP=fb_gu

I thought this was an interesting segment..
.."Look at the results. Thatcher’s capitalism has ended up breaking every one of its big promises. Home ownership in England has slumped to its lowest point since the mid-1980s. Share ownership among individuals is below where it was when Thatcher entered No 10. Thatcherism was meant to help those who wanted to get on in life; the Resolution Foundation now forecasts that those aged between 15 and 35 could earn less over their entire lifetimes than their parents."..
 

WolfLing

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I quite liked the ending.....

“What Thatcher once said of socialism goes for her own brand of economics: you eventually run out of taxpayer money to give to the rich and public assets to privatise.”
 

maws

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I quite liked the ending.....

“What Thatcher once said of socialism goes for her own brand of economics: you eventually run out of taxpayer money to give to the rich and public assets to privatise.”

Exactly this, I keep hearing socialism can't work as eventually you run out of other people's money to spend, it's so ironic. The problem with capitalism is yiu promise people all can be well off, so when the people who fall for it don't be one like the elite, they look for people to blame, immigrants, people on benefits, Europe, anyone but the rich who peddled the original myth.
 

Sedgley Gold N Black

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What would you call a hall full of people chanting the name of a (supposedly) future Prime Minister? It is a form of Idolatry that has no place in the important business of building a more just society.
The chant isn’t about Jeremy Corbyn the individual, it’s about what Jeremy Corbyn represents, a collection of beliefs, of policies and it’s about how an often unheard group finally have a collective voice.

It’s also about how others, including some within the Labour party, have tried to silence that group by silencing him and crush those views by crushing him, this time they have failed.

Maybe it should be “We’re all Jeremy Corbyn”.
 

Sedgley Gold N Black

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I quite liked the ending.....

“What Thatcher once said of socialism goes for her own brand of economics: you eventually run out of taxpayer money to give to the rich and public assets to privatise.”
I’d just sum it up as

“You eventually run out of other people to exploit”.
 

Big Nosed Wolf

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The chant isn’t about Jeremy Corbyn the individual, it’s about what Jeremy Corbyn represents, a collection of beliefs, of policies and it’s about how an often unheard group finally have a collective voice.

It’s also about how others, including some within the Labour party, have tried to silence that group by silencing him and crush those views by crushing him, this time they have failed.

Maybe it should be “We’re all Jeremy Corbyn”.

But you only quote part of my post. Taking it out of context.

Whatever the 'chant' is about the business of policy for the country doesn't need it. We are not all Jeremy Corbyn.

It's about policies not celebrity. Nor is it helpful in making society more just. All it does is divide. As much as any Tory seal clapping while sharpening the knives, or fisticuffs by Ukip members etc etc.

We need to grow up as an electorate. Stop look for saviour's as the answer to all ill's. It all ends the same way. The SQ remains because too many look for the answers in the wrong place. That all the countries problems will be solved by electing the 'new boss'.

I have been waiting (in vain) for the polling booths to stay empty nationwide with no votes being cast for any of them. This might send the message that we can't vote in a way which makes that much difference and what we want is a radical change in both voting system and the political set up in the UK. That wont happen until the polarisation through party politics ceases.

I repeat. I voted Labour at the last election. It doesn't mean I agree with, (or want), some of their policies. Like us all we have to go with what's on offer at the time.

I am aware of the in fighting which exists in all political parties. Which makes my point.

In fact when we vote we vote for an individual, rather than a party, or should do. He/she is our representative. That's not a bad system. The issues come when those individuals are compromised by having other allegiances. Broadly, either to the established order, or political ideology. Virtually none are independent.

So on we go, the conference bull**** coming to an end for another year. Nothing changes and it might well be that this time next year the 'old boss' will be replaced by the 'new boss', who will be given the same back slapping transparent nonsense. Reported on by the 'experts' in the media who themselves often twist and contort what was supposed to have been meant by the speeches.
 
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German Wolf

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Exactly this, I keep hearing socialism can't work as eventually you run out of other people's money to spend, it's so ironic. The problem with capitalism is yiu promise people all can be well off, so when the people who fall for it don't be one like the elite, they look for people to blame, immigrants, people on benefits, Europe, anyone but the rich who peddled the original myth.
I quite liked the ending.....

“What Thatcher once said of socialism goes for her own brand of economics: you eventually run out of taxpayer money to give to the rich and public assets to privatise.”

Would love to read what Luckyjim and his Ukipper fellow travellers have to say about posts 21-24 on this thread...
 

bod101

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the gap between the top and bottom has become too stretched, close that gap back down and there will be less discontent. the top end has got too greedy.
 

Pengwern

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A really interesting article on how Thatcherism no longer works, so unless The Conservatives try something new, this brand of capitalism is destined to fail.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ies-thatcher-treasury-cupboard-bare?CMP=fb_gu

It's interesting, but I think it takes an insular, Britcentric view of how the world was changed from the late 1970s onwards. The German political sociologist Wolfgang Streik, has written a revealing book showing how neoliberalism owed rather more to West German thinking and planning than to Reagan and Thatcher. Thatcher in many ways is best understood through Naomi Klein's concept of shock doctrine, who took the opportunity presented by the collapse of the underpinnings of the post-war consensus to point grapeshot at everything she thought was wrong. I don't actually think anyone besides Keith Joseph in the Thatcher cabinet really got Hayek and Friedman. For me, it was Blair & Brown who systematised Thatcherism, eventually claiming, ludicrously, that boom and bust had been abolished. It was Blair who took privatisation into the core public services and re-drew welfare benefits around means testing, took the country into imperialistic wars and waged war against socialism.

Neoliberal Capitalism is a world system and the UK role within it is more or less restricted to finance capitalism, which is why we have such high levels of domestic inequality compared to countries that have tried harder to nurture their manufacturing industries so as to retain as much as possible of them. That unbalanced economic structure did not arise from Thatcher letting manufacturing go to the wall; it had suffered long-term poor investment in infrastructure and was increasingly uncompetitive. This in turn came from the fact that French and German industry had been developed with massive state involvement from the outset, creating companies of a size and with balance sheets, professional management and assets that enabled them to survive neoliberalism. In the U.K, there were no great capitalist firms, just a lot of second rate ones dependent on London finance houses and government handouts. Underlying this is the fact that both the modern British state and the City of London continued to be run by the same alliance of classes that carried out the counterrevolution against the Levellers - the aristocracy owned the land on which factories and cities were built, merchant capitalists used the empire to make more out of exporting British manufactures than did the factory owners and bankers made the most money of all. Yes, the industrial revolution had profound social effects, but an independent class of industrial capitalists never took power, which is why we have never had a Republic. The Crown in Parliament system, the very antithesis of democracy, remains in place because industrial capitalists and industrial capitalism have always played a distant second fiddle.

The specific nature of the UK capitalist crisis is therefore that a working class was created by industrialisation but is now surplus to the requirements of the peculiar structure of British finance capitalism. To put it another way, the City of London does not need the rest of the country outside its south east commuter belt. It does not even need most working class Londoners, which is why they are being socially cleansed to Wolverhampton and elsewhere. The only reason the country still exists is to preserve the existing state structure, which is so easy for them to work with.

If Catalonia frees itself from Spain, this will speed up Scottish independence and the eventual break-upon the U.K.
 
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luckyjim

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I’d just sum it up as

“You eventually run out of other people to exploit”.

After reading about the birds and the bees, young Proudlock was shocked that people were unwilling to risk their own money to pay others a minimum wage of £15 an hour out of their own charity.
 
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German Wolf

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After reading about the birds and the bees, young Proudlock was shocked that people were unwilling to risk their own money to pay others a minimum wage of £15 an hour out of their own charity.

'Risk' paying people for what they have been contracted to do and have done. 15 pounds per hour... where did that come from?
You ignore so much of real life around you that the list is just endless. I'll give you just two for free. Housing costs and zero hours contracts.
And, no comment on Pengwern's comment or my thread on Boris 'Bunter' Johnson yet... Quelle surprise!
WUM. Quite simply a WUM.
 

Sedgley Gold N Black

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After reading about the birds and the bees, young Proudlock was shocked that people were unwilling to risk their own money to pay others a minimum wage of £15 an hour out of their own charity.
Exploiting and punishing the weaknesses of others is at the very heart of capitalism, sure you can dress it up and put it in nicer terms but the brutal truth is that capitalism is survival of the fittest, beating the competition, which will eventually comes down to one human benefiting at the expense of another.

What happens when there's only the fittest left? what happened to everyone else? what happens when there's no competition left to beat?
 
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German Wolf

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Exploiting and punishing the weaknesses of others is at the very heart of capitalism, sure you can dress it up and put it in nicer terms but the brutal truth is that capitalism is survival of the fittest, beating the competition, which will eventually comes down to one human benefiting at the expense of another.

What happens when there's only the fittest left? what happened to everyone else? what happens when there's no competition left to beat?

The Emperor's New Clothes, London's Financial Centre or the palaces in North Korea? No difference.
 

Big Nosed Wolf

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Exploiting and punishing the weaknesses of others is at the very heart of capitalism, sure you can dress it up and put it in nicer terms but the brutal truth is that capitalism is survival of the fittest, beating the competition, which will eventually comes down to one human benefiting at the expense of another.

What happens when there's only the fittest left? what happened to everyone else? what happens when there's no competition left to beat?

Well I don't know what Jim's take is but can I take the liberty?

Eventually Joe Worker will be surplus to requirements in much of the workplace because automation will make it that way.

It won't be just the minimum wage earners who will be either. As an example there is already a 'robot' which can diagnose many ailments which currently need a GP. We can feed in symptoms, give the appropriate answers and get a diagnosis, followed by prescription and/or referral to specialists as appropriate. It has been tested and checked by the medical profession and it has been pretty efficient and accurate in the diagnosis and treatments concluded.

Only now are Politicians waking up and looking at how humanity will manage to feed and cloth itself. By putting a universal income on the agenda. Along with population growth these are the two issues which are still not being taken seriously enough.

I suppose capitalism will still be with us. How that pans out with paying for the measures that will be necessary should be at the forefront of all governments.
 

Andy

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Well I don't know what Jim's take is but can I take the liberty?

Eventually Joe Worker will be surplus to requirements in much of the workplace because automation will make it that way.

It won't be just the minimum wage earners who will be either. As an example there is already a 'robot' which can diagnose many ailments which currently need a GP. We can feed in symptoms, give the appropriate answers and get a diagnosis, followed by prescription and/or referral to specialists as appropriate. It has been tested and checked by the medical profession and it has been pretty efficient and accurate in the diagnosis and treatments concluded.

Only now are Politicians waking up and looking at how humanity will manage to feed and cloth itself. By putting a universal income on the agenda. Along with population growth these are the two issues which are still not being taken seriously enough.

I suppose capitalism will still be with us. How that pans out with paying for the measures that will be necessary should be at the forefront of all governments.

I'm glad someone bought this up.

When we get this kind of automation is debatable, but when we do, @luckyjim 's world view will be a thing of the past if it's not already.

We'll get UBI or we'll get huge civil unrest in my opinion.
 

Sedgley Gold N Black

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Well I don't know what Jim's take is but can I take the liberty?

Eventually Joe Worker will be surplus to requirements in much of the workplace because automation will make it that way.

It won't be just the minimum wage earners who will be either. As an example there is already a 'robot' which can diagnose many ailments which currently need a GP. We can feed in symptoms, give the appropriate answers and get a diagnosis, followed by prescription and/or referral to specialists as appropriate. It has been tested and checked by the medical profession and it has been pretty efficient and accurate in the diagnosis and treatments concluded.

Only now are Politicians waking up and looking at how humanity will manage to feed and cloth itself. By putting a universal income on the agenda. Along with population growth these are the two issues which are still not being taken seriously enough.

I suppose capitalism will still be with us. How that pans out with paying for the measures that will be necessary should be at the forefront of all governments.
Surely if we introduce universal benefit or something along those lines, capitalism will be dead?

As for Jim’s view, I’d imagine it’d be that all of those people should go hungry unless they can find a market need for themselves. Only those who own the capital for the automation should survive!

At least that’s what his political views would suggest.

Although I would also point out that the key foundations of capitalism doesn’t only apply to taking advantage of the workforce, it includes customers too. What capitalism always fails to recognise is that the continued accumulation of additional capital by those with the capital puts up barriers to entry and forms monopolies!
 
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Big Nosed Wolf

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I'm glad someone bought this up.

When we get this kind of automation is debatable, but when we do, @luckyjim 's world view will be a thing of the past if it's not already.

We'll get UBI or we'll get huge civil unrest in my opinion.


Civil unrest will be the issue which most governments, if they have any sense, which most do not, should be anticipating and why they should be taking 'robots' and population growth seriously,

The political structures which exist are/will be outdated.

Scenes like the last few years of mass migration from famine, poverty, civil war and persecution will grow in number and size. The majority fleeing to the EU and the 'rich West ,where they are led to believe they will taken care of. If they don't kill themselves first. Only to find some members won't let them in at all (Hungary, Poland,) Those who might/have don't have either the will or the money to make sure the basic infrastructures can cope.

Meanwhile the leaders of the UK and Europe play willy swingin' over the far less important issue of who does what, why and to whom and how much is 'owed'.
 

Big Nosed Wolf

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Surely if we introduce universal benefit or something along those lines, capitalism will be dead?

As for Jim’s view, I’d imagine it’d be that all of those people should go hungry unless they can find a market need for themselves. Only those who own the capital for the automation should survive!

At least that’s what his political views would suggest.

Although I would also point out that the key foundations of capitalism doesn’t only apply to taking advantage of the workforce, it includes customers too. What capitalism always fails to recognise is that the continued accumulation of additional capital by those with the capital puts up barriers to entry and forms monopolies!

It depends on the definition of capitalism.

Once there are more people than jobs (probably already at that point) who then pays the government to pay us? As governments don't have any money only that which we give them where will the taxes come from?

That can only come by taxing the robot-run businesses who will be making bigger profits (due to investing in technology which pays for itself over time unlike many staff, where costs only rise). Not only will they have to be taxed more heavily probably, it will be crucial no one escapes paying. Not a pretty scenario.

The same, in theory though also applies to state subsidised institutions such as the NHS. Technology should bring down the cost of running it, at least by having Robots doing much of the primary care. What happens to drug prices though? Many drug companies invest in research/development of new drugs. They then charge eye watering amounts for them. What happens with that issue is anyone's guess.

There will still be customers for those companies products in the 'free market' but will those customers be able to afford only the basics, due to the universal income being little more than the current amounts given with the benefits system? Meaning there isn't a market for many products, those companies diversify or pack up, the latter meaning there is even less tax revenue to pay the universal income.

Perhaps,in a couple of centuries time, humanity will have had to evolve a totally different method of living. Perhaps everyone goes back to living off a given strip of land to grow crops on. Who knows. Back to the future?
 
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