The Tory Narrative

[Sedgley Gold N Black]

It depends on the definition of capitalism.

There’s only really one though, the means of production is in private hands and utilised for profit.

Once there are more people than jobs (probably already at that point) who then pays the government to pay us? As governments don't have any money only that which we give them where will the taxes come from?

That can only come by taxing the robot-run businesses who will be making bigger profits (due to investing in technology which pays for itself over time unlike many staff, where costs only rise). Not only will they have to be taxed more heavily probably, it will be crucial no one escapes paying. Not a pretty scenario.

The same, in theory though also applies to state subsidised institutions such as the NHS. Technology should bring down the cost of running it, at least by having Robots doing much of the primary care. What happens to drug prices though? Many drug companies invest in research/development of new drugs. They then charge eye watering amounts for them. What happens with that issue is anyone's guess.

There will still be customers for those companies products in the 'free market' but will those customers be able to afford only the basics, due to the universal income being little more than the current amounts given with the benefits system? Meaning there isn't a market for many products, those companies diversify or pack up, the latter meaning there is even less tax revenue to pay the universal income.

Perhaps,in a couple of centuries time, humanity will have had to evolve a totally different method of living. Perhaps everyone goes back to living off a given strip of land to grow crops on. Who knows. Back to the future?

And you’ve just summed up why capitalism is not sustainable in the long run.

If the community or society owned those means of production, robots, and they were utilised for everyone’s equal benefit, do we need to go back?

 

[Pengwern]

Capitalism has been stuck in strategic inertia since 2009, with no idea or plan about where it's next round of accumulation (business cycle in the euphemistic phrase of its economists) will come from. It is lost, as political crises whirl around it, many reflecting the widespread delayed reaction of the majority of human beings who now see it does not deliver for them. It appears to be dying rather than being put out of its misery.

 

[German Wolf]

After reading about the birds and the bees, young Proudlock was shocked that people were unwilling to risk their own money to pay others a minimum wage of £15 an hour out of their own charity.

Meanwhile, back in the real world of real people on 7.50 per hour after 5 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/society...serati-garage-cleaners-strike-for-living-wage

 

[Big Nosed Wolf]

There’s only really one though, the means of production is in private hands and utilised for profit.


And you’ve just summed up why capitalism is not sustainable in the long run.

If the community or society owned those means of production, robots, and they were utilised for everyone’s equal benefit, do we need to go back?

Of course we wouldn't. Which is the gist of my argument about governments facing up to that which is coming. That technology, if used selflessly, will improve humanities existence.

It will have to be fought for though. Like every other bit of progress.

 

[Ulfhednar]

This intellectualising is a waste of time now, the reality of all these different political theories has become manifest. Thatcherism that became modern Conservatism / Neo-Liberalism (that Hammond champions) is just an endless abuse, pushing all wealth & opportunity up out of reach of most, turning us into tenants in our own Country, just one long modern Enclosures act. The last General Election proved it's no longer electable. And International Socialism of the Left, and it's mass immigration is equally despised, for pushing all wealth & opportunity down, into the hands of economic migrants who have become parasites and their children cuckoos.

I think we've as much chance of a revolution as we do of democracy working now, both the Left & the Right are biased bigoted extremist crazies.

 

[Ulfhednar]

But we have Theresa May, whose politics / vision is old World & pre-Thatcherite. She branded herself as the Conservative who was anti-Nasty party, she's commissioned and championed reports like from the Social Mobility Commission, that exposes the horrors of Neo-Liberalism (Thatcherism that became Blarism) that she clearly intends to act on. She's a real hope, and even the Conservatives are accepting that, she's their only chance, if not her it will be Corbyn who'll be PM, and not constructively, he'd be elected out of spite and for revenge. No one with any sense thinks Corbyn would do anything other than wreck the Country, but that's definitely an option to fall back on, to wreck it for the rich too, out of spite.

 

[Pengwern]

But we have Theresa May, whose politics / vision is old World & pre-Thatcherite. She branded herself as the Conservative who was anti-Nasty party, she's commissioned and championed reports like from the Social Mobility Commission, that exposes the horrors of Neo-Liberalism (Thatcherism that became Blarism) that she clearly intends to act on. She's a real hope, and even the Conservatives are accepting that, she's their only chance, if not her it will be Corbyn who'll be PM, and not constructively, he'd be elected out of spite and for revenge. No one with any sense thinks Corbyn would do anything other than wreck the Country, but that's definitely an option to fall back on, to wreck it for the rich too, out of spite.

You really like sawn-off simplification of any issue, Football or Politics, in order to use a scattergun approach to any target you have a dislike for, which seems to be infinite. This is my first and possibly last response to you on anything. ... No wonder many good discussions end up being dragged down to a level where personal remarks enter the fray. Now I've gone and done it, but you have ride to lower the level of debate, denouncing theory, so I think you deserve picking up on this.

 

[Ulfhednar]

You really like sawn-off simplification of any issue, Football or Politics, in order to use a scattergun approach to any target you have a dislike for, which seems to be infinite. This is my first and possibly last response to you on anything. ... No wonder many good discussions end up being dragged down to a level where personal remarks enter the fray. Now I've gone and done it, but you have ride to lower the level of debate, denouncing theory, so I think you deserve picking up on this.

It's a good thing then that politics and opinion is a shotgun affair for most people. So far since I bothered to look at politics again, I've been in the same camp / predicted Trump, Brexit, TMay for PM, Corbyn becoming a cult figure and having a great campaign, TMay losing Cons majority in Election but her staying PM long term.

I was backing Corbyn from the moment the GE was announced off the back of Cons Grammar school & useless housing plans, he worked as a Trump like anti-Establishment figure. But it became obvious really quickly that he was being sly about immigration, that he wanted to borrow tons of money to build infrastructure & housing, not to fix anything, but just to let it get over consumed all over again by even more mass immigration. No more flats apparently, Grenfell proved immigrants should live in houses. Is the Country having an extension or something? Where's the land coming from?

The age of politics / ideologies leading people is over, people are too well educated, informed & aware now to need it, it's time for politics to do what people want.

 

[Ulfhednar]

You really like sawn-off simplification of any issue, Football or Politics, in order to use a scattergun approach to any target you have a dislike for, which seems to be infinite.

The correct term isn't infinite it's eternal.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

It's a good thing then that politics and opinion is a shotgun affair for most people. So far since I bothered to look at politics again, I've been in the same camp / predicted Trump, Brexit, TMay for PM, Corbyn becoming a cult figure and having a great campaign, TMay losing Cons majority in Election but her staying PM long term.

I was backing Corbyn from the moment the GE was announced off the back of Cons Grammar school & useless housing plans, he worked as a Trump like anti-Establishment figure. But it became obvious really quickly that he was being sly about immigration, that he wanted to borrow tons of money to build infrastructure & housing, not to fix anything, but just to let it get over consumed all over again by even more mass immigration. No more flats apparently, Grenfell proved immigrants should live in houses. Is the Country having an extension or something? Where's the land coming from?

The age of politics / ideologies leading people is over, people are too well educated, informed & aware now to need it, it's time for politics to do what people want.

Feel free to correct me but I don't think you've made any of these predictions on here, so no offence but we have nothing to base the validity of this on but your own claim. I wouldn't get too confident about Mrs May's long term future, maybe you want to put a more definite time on that? I'd be amazed if she made the next election, but then I'm often wrong.

 

[Sedgley Gold N Black]

Some, such as Jane Hunt, whose dreams of unseating Labour's Lilian Greenwood in Nottingham South crashed and burned in June, believe the Corbyn bubble will burst.

"We need to get through the stage where Jeremy Corbyn is sexy. He is going through a phase where people think he is a Messiah almost. That will soon die off. It's built on absolutely nothing as far as I can see."

Like others you speak to, she claims Mr Corbyn "hoodwinked" young people by promising to abolish tuition fees and "sort" their debts.

"I am afraid I think the students were absolutely conned and I think they will switch off from politics once they realise they've been conned. They'll be switched off for a generation and that's really unfortunate."

It certainly cost her her own chances, she says, as students queued up outside polling stations to cast a ballot for her opponent, who got 10,000 extra votes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41463399

I wonder how long they'll keep believing in this?

 

[German Wolf]

It's a good thing then that politics and opinion is a shotgun affair for most people. So far since I bothered to look at politics again, I've been in the same camp / predicted Trump, Brexit, TMay for PM, Corbyn becoming a cult figure and having a great campaign, TMay losing Cons majority in Election but her staying PM long term.

I was backing Corbyn from the moment the GE was announced off the back of Cons Grammar school & useless housing plans, he worked as a Trump like anti-Establishment figure. But it became obvious really quickly that he was being sly about immigration, that he wanted to borrow tons of money to build infrastructure & housing, not to fix anything, but just to let it get over consumed all over again by even more mass immigration. No more flats apparently, Grenfell proved immigrants should live in houses. Is the Country having an extension or something? Where's the land coming from?

The age of politics / ideologies leading people is over, people are too well educated, informed & aware now to need it, it's time for politics to do what people want.

ULF.

You said, 'he (Jeremy Corbyn) wanted to borrow tons of money to build infrastructure and housing'. It's always like that whether you are a capitalist or a socialist. Governments, businesses. organisations and individuals borrow to invest in what they want. But there's a key difference between investing in the basics or the thrill frills. Oh, and hopefully you will eventually understand the truth about the dreaded 'immigrants'! ie that most are forward-looking and hardworking filling in the gaps and niches the local 'Engish' - for want of a better word - can't, won't, don't want to do.

Jeremy Corbyn's ideas are actually ****ing in the wind compared with the deluge that went to the investment bankers after they ripped off the financial system and the nation's assets to dump cash in their offshore tax havens and splurge the rest on anonymous investments, fancy houses, holidays, cars, boats and uninvestigated cocaine habits.

Now, Ulf, what's better or worse for the English? Labour's basics Money Tree or the Tory/Banker frills Money Tree. Try asking Karl Henry who benefited from proper state infrastructure in housing, education and health. Whoops....!

 

[Ulfhednar]

Corbyn wanted to borrow vasts amounts (on top of the deficit we already have), and a vast amount more than Conservatives did (who want to reduce the deficit). His spending, particularly on housing, would have made the UK a honeypot to immigration, all the extra housing & land it had used up would have been consumed, we'd have a bigger population and still unaffordable housing.

Immigrants aren't a benefit to economy, that's an abuse of statistics & a lie. They don't factor in the cost of the extra schooling, NHS provision, extra power stations, roads, cars, drains, landfills, pollution etc.. And they base their housing cost on slums like Grenfell. If they had decent housing, they'd be just as expensive as our own people. And we haven't the land to accommodate it endlessly anyway. I agree with a lot of Corbyn's policies, but he is in la la land & unelectable over immigration.

The Public Sector, the NHS, the Monarchy, Westminster, NATO etc etc, the whole lot can burn ahead of this Country becoming an overpopulated urban slum.

 

[Ulfhednar]

Also, consider how less able Corbyn would have been to maintain all that debt, as business ran from his Socialism. The Exchequers receipts would have crashed, our credit rating would get downgraded, our debt would be more expensive and we'd have less to be able to service it. The Country could have been properly broken. But Corbyn (& McDonnell) don't care, too old to suffer the consequences.

 

[Andy]

and a vast amount more than Conservatives did (who want to reduce the deficit).

Haven't recent Tory governments borrowed more than any other government in history? They don't seem to be trying too hard to reduce the deficit.

Corbyn might not be the answer, but we've been increasing the deficit while life gets worse for vast numbers of people. That's a **** deal. Only the Tories have been able to do anything about this, and they've failed.

 

[tamwolf]

Haven't recent Tory governments borrowed more than any other government in history? They don't seem to be trying too hard to reduce the deficit.

Corbyn might not be the answer, but we've been increasing the deficit while life gets worse for vast numbers of people. That's a **** deal. Only the Tories have been able to do anything about this, and they've failed.

The Tories have always borrowed more. The notion that Labour always borrow more is a misconception that the media and the Conservative party have helped to ingrain in the consciousness of the British public. They have done it pretty successfully.

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/...the-biggest-borrowers-over-the-last-70-years/

 

[Ulfhednar]

Haven't recent Tory governments borrowed more than any other government in history? They don't seem to be trying too hard to reduce the deficit.

Corbyn might not be the answer, but we've been increasing the deficit while life gets worse for vast numbers of people. That's a **** deal. Only the Tories have been able to do anything about this, and they've failed.

I think we got the best result in the Election possible and the one I wanted. The Conservatives are in a corner having to be more fair & realistic.

Our economy is a complete fraud, it's based on consumer spending that is based on debt (that is now maxed out & unsustainable, never mind offering more opportunity). The deficit is a consequence of Blair & Brown, and the Cons who supported their Neo-Lib policies. Our only hope is Brexit, and through that rebalancing the economy.

The biggest issue with cost of living isn't wages, it's unaffordable house prices that make everything else unaffordable. If we never fix that, we'll always have real & meaningful poverty. We can't hope to fix that without controlling who has access to our housing, which means controlling immigration & population size.

 

[Andy]

I think we got the best result in the Election possible and the one I wanted. The Conservatives are in a corner having to be more fair & realistic.

Our economy is a complete fraud, it's based on consumer spending that is based on debt (that is now maxed out & unsustainable, never mind offering more opportunity). The deficit is a consequence of Blair & Brown, and the Cons who supported their Neo-Lib policies. Our only hope is Brexit, and through that rebalancing the economy.

The biggest issue with cost of living isn't wages, it's unaffordable house prices that make everything else unaffordable. If we never fix that, we'll always have real & meaningful poverty. We can't hope to fix that without controlling who has access to our housing, which means controlling immigration & population size.

That actually all sounds reasonable to me.

I don't really have any faith in this government however, but that's another issue I guess.

 

[Ulfhednar]

It's a fact, we're only reliant on immigration for low skill labour, because of unaffordable housing. Immigrants suffer compromised housing, like Grenfell, and it's often better from where they came from, so they have lots of kids, when indigenous less so because they don't feel financially secure enough. There used to be loads of Council houses in Shropshire for agri workers, now they're all sold off, too expensive, cost of housing means agri workers can't afford to work for those wages, or are given higher wages, increasing farming cost & making our farming produce more expensive. It's why we can't afford to manufacture either, and therefore export, cuz wages cuz cost of housing. The immigration / over-population is sinking the Country. The politicians (working on 5yr terms & relatively short careers) do it for short term gain, and ignore the long term catastrophe it is.

 

[Ulfhednar]

I hope May & Corbyn being older & more old World, are more interested in their legacies than in being powerful & more rich (like Blair), I think the two work / compete well together, they bring out the better in each others policies, I think they'll both be remembered as being good for the Country. Maybe it will be time for Corbyn next election, when he's got real about immigration. I like his anti-privatisation policies.

 

[Sedgley Gold N Black]

The biggest issue with cost of living isn't wages, it's unaffordable house prices that make everything else unaffordable. If we never fix that, we'll always have real & meaningful poverty. We can't hope to fix that without controlling who has access to our housing, which means controlling immigration & population size.

It's not just controlling immigration and population size though is it?

The main issue in this regard is that houses are seen as assets rather than homes, house builders don't build enough homes because its in their interests to limit supply to maximise profit. You have private renters too buying houses and renting them, they'll be able to outbid many first time home buyers and keep what is generation rent trapped.

Then of course you have people living longer too.

 

[derbyrameater]

It's a fact, we're only reliant on immigration for low skill labour, because of unaffordable housing. Immigrants suffer compromised housing, like Grenfell, and it's often better from where they came from, so they have lots of kids, when indigenous less so because they don't feel financially secure enough. There used to be loads of Council houses in Shropshire for agri workers, now they're all sold off, too expensive, cost of housing means agri workers can't afford to work for those wages, or are given higher wages, increasing farming cost & making our farming produce more expensive. It's why we can't afford to manufacture either, and therefore export, cuz wages cuz cost of housing. The immigration / over-population is sinking the Country. The politicians (working on 5yr terms & relatively short careers) do it for short term gain, and ignore the long term catastrophe it is.

Nothing to do with the tories getting rid of the Agricultural Workers wages board then, phew what a relief it's the bloody immigrants fault!

 

[Ulfhednar]

It's not just controlling immigration and population size though is it?

The main issue in this regard is that houses are seen as assets rather than homes, house builders don't build enough homes because its in their interests to limit supply to maximise profit. You have private renters too buying houses and renting them, they'll be able to outbid many first time home buyers and keep what is generation rent trapped.

Then of course you have people living longer too.

It needs State intervention for the good of the Nation. I think it's as much of a National crisis, and opportunity (fix for the future) as WW2 was. I don't believe anyone fought in the Wars & would have considered it a victory, for their grandchildren & great grandchildren not to be able to afford to live in their own Country.

Nothing to do with the tories getting rid of the Agricultural Workers wages board then, phew what a relief it's the bloody immigrants fault!

They'd just achieve higher wages and make our farming even less competitive, pushing us toward more food imports and ignoring all the pollution that costs, and meaning more of our land can't be used for farming as it's too uncompetitive so is given over to housing, which doesn't relieve supply & stop the housing bubble cuz there's an almost endless demand outstripping whatever supply there is. While there's more demand than supply, cuz housing is a necessity, every extra penny most people (and certainly the less well off) get in their wages will only ever go into house price inflation. Your wealthy Leftie Liberals who support immigration are either too thick to realise, or don't care, that the vast majority are just running on a mouse wheel to get nowhere. Funnily enough, one that powers their World where they get to swan about & ponce so much.

 

[derbyrameater]

It's LJ MK II or BS MKII

 

[Ulfhednar]

It's LJ MK II or BS MKII

Not a clue. But I'm on a roll at the moment, I'm even getting real stuff done (or I've at least have achieved a whole new level of kidding myself I am).

 

[Pengwern]

Builders are also cutting the size of rooms in nearly all new developments, compared to almost any generation of housing apart from very basic terraces built a century ago. The Tories, who've always had a very close relationship to builders, are perfectly happy with this, so long as the numbers built is politically defensible, just like they are with the de-humanising, low wage jobs their management of the economy has produced. 'Never mind the quality, feel the width' springs to mind.

 

[luckyjim]

Builders are also cutting the size of rooms in nearly all new developments, compared to almost any generation of housing apart from very basic terraces built a century ago. The Tories, who've always had a very close relationship to builders, are perfectly happy with this, so long as the numbers built is politically defensible, just like they are with the de-humanising, low wage jobs their management of the economy has produced. 'Never mind the quality, feel the width' springs to mind.

It can't be anything to do with hundreds of thousands of immigrants pouring in year upon year, massively increasing demand.

 

[luckyjim]

It's not just controlling immigration and population size though is it?

The main issue in this regard is that houses are seen as assets rather than homes, house builders don't build enough homes because its in their interests to limit supply to maximise profit. You have private renters too buying houses and renting them, they'll be able to outbid many first time home buyers and keep what is generation rent trapped.

Then of course you have people living longer too.

Population growth is mostly to blame and yet birth-rates among native British are falling. It's galling to stand on top of Barr Beacon knowing that some of the last strands of green belt could soon be gone forever, merely to house an immigration Ponzi-scheme in which we'll be fed the same lies about "our population getting old so we need more workers", ad infinitum. Corbyn will only accelerate this.

 

[maws]

I'm livin in a box

 

[luckyjim]

Would love to read what Luckyjim and his Ukipper fellow travellers have to say about posts 21-24 on this thread...

Quite happy to destroy them later on.

 

[German Wolf]

Quite happy to destroy them later on.

LOL

 

[German Wolf]

Population growth is mostly to blame and yet birth-rates among native British are falling. It's galling to stand on top of Barr Beacon knowing that some of the last strands of green belt could soon be gone forever, merely to house an immigration Ponzi-scheme in which we'll be fed the same lies about "our population getting old so we need more workers", ad infinitum. Corbyn will only accelerate this.

Corbyn? Where have you been since the 1950s? The biggest Ponzi scheme yet, leading to the 2008 crash and mounting debt being paid off by the tax paying workers was enacted by the aristo, ex-public school boy, whitey, tax evading, offshore hoarding, privatising bankers and their jolly jape Tory friends as the natural party of government... or wasn't I on the same planet? Corbyn! LOL I'll give you the sexually compromised Blair and Brown to add to the endless post-1979 Tory blaggers and carpet baggers but, jeez man, get a grip.

 

[luckyjim]

'Risk' paying people for what they have been contracted to do and have done. 15 pounds per hour... where did that come from?
You ignore so much of real life around you that the list is just endless. I'll give you just two for free. Housing costs and zero hours contracts.
And, no comment on Pengwern's comment or my thread on Boris 'Bunter' Johnson yet... Quelle surprise!
WUM. Quite simply a WUM.

You could be forgiven for thinking that by wishing to produce well-rounded adults, teachers would be imparting qualities of resilience and open-mindedness onto their pupils, but if you disagree with German Wolf, than you're a wum! No free discussion in his class.

He's so conscientious that he'll do a Van La Parra and try and get a fellow poster punished by calling him a "wum". .... He'll say he's staunchly anti-racist and yet he's shown exactly the kind of thinking that has yielded the AfD seats they would never have won had a few idiots not reacted over a photo the way they did.

You remind me of Pyle in the Quiet American.

 

[Sedgley Gold N Black]

Population growth is mostly to blame and yet birth-rates among native British are falling. It's galling to stand on top of Barr Beacon knowing that some of the last strands of green belt could soon be gone forever, merely to house an immigration Ponzi-scheme in which we'll be fed the same lies about "our population getting old so we need more workers", ad infinitum. Corbyn will only accelerate this.

So old people aren’t living longer? And aren’t downsizing?

I suppose immigrants are to blame for the pressure on the health service too?

Immigration obviously has an impact on the housing market but thinking stopping immigration will solely provide a solution is incredibly naive, sums up your generation’s thinking quite well though.

On the Ponzi scheme, who’s going to pay for the ever increasing bill of the the ageing population and filling the black hole of that generation?

 

[German Wolf]

So old people aren’t living longer? And aren’t downsizing?

I suppose immigrants are to blame for the pressure on the health service too?

Immigration obviously has an impact on the housing market but thinking stopping immigration will solely provide a solution is incredibly naive, sums up your generation’s thinking quite well though.

On the Ponzi scheme, who’s going to pay for the ever increasing bill of the the ageing population and filling the black hole of that generation?

Well said. Basic economics there that most 12 year olds would understand. Another example of how a certain level of critical thinking shows that the world isn't as simple as it might seem. Unless, you were born in the golden generation on which the sun is not supposed to set.