The mediocre manager merry-go round

[ShropshireLad]

I don't mind Big Sam but don't ruin the thread by talking about Pulis

Is there a difference between the two?

A Palace fan I know recently said when they'd got rid of de Boer that they'd had Warnock, Pullis and Allardyce who were all the same and then they appointed de Boer who couldn't do anything with the players they'd bought for him - what was he supposed to do?

Anyhow, Roy has picked up a few points...perhaps he's in their mould as well.

 

[Essex Wolf]

Is there a difference between the two?
My favorite manager of all time is English and he was the complete opposite of those two. I'll let the MolMix guess who it is.

I was part joking mate but as you ask I'd say Allardyce is far and away a better manager than Pulis who is very one dimensional IMO. At least Big Sam's sides did on occasion play some decent stuff.

Regards your favourite manager, Sir Bobby Robson?

 

[Jonzy54]

I know what you mean but I would put Allardyce in a different category. Unlike the others he has taken on several teams in trouble and saved them from relegation and I expect him to do the same at Everton, if appointed. By doing this he is saving the club owners countless millions.

Yes but he takes a short term contract with a massive bonus to keep them up ,will probably sign a long deal with his entourage , it goes belly up and then the club pays out big compensation after he gets the sack and so the merrygoround continues.

 

[ShropshireLad]

My favorite manager of all time is English and he was the complete opposite of those two. I'll let the MolMix guess who it is.

Clough.

 

[portugaletc]

Clough was obviously a great manager, but I don't really know much about him except he won a lot of stuff.

Bobby Robson ?

Regards your favourite manager, Sir Bobby Robson?

Yes, he was not only a fantastic manager that made his teams play great attacking football, he had sportsmanship and class, even his opponents would get classier in the post-match interviews.
Everyone in Portugal puts their club affiliations aside when it's time to talk about the "English Gentleman", probably the most respected manager in Portugal's football history and maybe the biggest reason for the current crop of great Portuguese managers, because thanks to Mourinho's success, Portuguese managers like Jardim, Fonseca, Silva, AVB have a chance to show their ability in the big stages
Without Robson, there's no Mourinho, and without Mourinho there's no Nuno, so maybe he helped Wolves a bit too.
I don't know what the MolMix thinks about him, but if you disagree, I think it's impossible to change my mind. I mean, would anyone call Allardyce an English gentleman?

 

[GoldenHorseshoe]

I have just been reading the comments on the BBC website regarding Everton's likely employment of Allardyce... none of their fans wants him !! Clubs sacking their manager put themselves in a totally unwinnable situation. Allardyce is not going to accept a 6 - 12 month deal, not enough money in it , so they will offer a 3 years deal, then if he fails, another large payout . I'm glad that Mamager's like Silva and Dyche are showing loyalty, and by God doesn;t it even make you more happier that Fosun acquired Nuno ?

Silva is not showing loyalty IMO it's just that Watford have him by the nuts.

 

[portugaletc]

Silva is not showing loyalty IMO it's just that Watford have him by the nuts.

There's no evidence of Silva trying to leave Watford.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

Hodgson, Moyes, Allardyce, Pardew. All handed PL jobs this year (or will be soon), combined age of 243, 18 PL stints between them, 0 major honours.

Roy Hodgson - West Brom David Moyes - Everton Sam Allardyce - Crystal Palace Alan Pardew - West Ham


Roy Hodgson - Crystal Palace David Moyes - West Ham Sam Allardyce - Everton Alan Pardew - West Brom


Can see Pullis managing Swansea by January too.

These blokes make millions, time after time for serving up nothing but mediocrity.

These are the people standing in the way of young managers! Such cowardly appointments.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/09/sports/soccer/premier-league-sam-allardyce.html

Good article on it, above.

Interesting that these 4 clubs may be rotating managers?! In the past I'm sure we on here would have been happy with some/all of the 4? We've come so far now that this lot + Harry and Lambert and Mick seem a million miles in the past. Exciting times!

 

[Moulinex Mixer]

Is there a difference between the two?
My favorite manager of all time is English and he was the complete opposite of those two. I'll let the MolMix guess who it is.

William Harry McGarry

 

[GoldenHorseshoe]

There's no evidence of Silva trying to leave Watford.

He's been very coy about committing to Watford. Very political like.

 

[Writer Wolf]

Probably because his is unproven at that (PL) level!

Isn't that the point of this thread? Someone outside the Premiership merry-go-round. Someone unproven in that league but with obvious skills and talent to potentially - just maybe - do very well.

 

[portugaletc]

He's been very coy about committing to Watford. Very political like.

As he should! It's ****ing Watford...

 

[GoldenHorseshoe]

As he should! It's ****ing Watford...

He could have least tweeted a picture of a hornet landing on his ass

 

[Lupo Italiano]

Clough was obviously a great manager, but I don't really know much about him except he won a lot of stuff.


Yes, he was not only a fantastic manager that made his teams play great attacking football, he had sportsmanship and class, even his opponents would get classier in the post-match interviews.
Everyone in Portugal puts their club affiliations aside when it's time to talk about the "English Gentleman", probably the most respected manager in Portugal's football history and maybe the biggest reason for the current crop of great Portuguese managers, because thanks to Mourinho's success, Portuguese managers like Jardim, Fonseca, Silva, AVB have a chance to show their ability in the big stages
Without Robson, there's no Mourinho, and without Mourinho there's no Nuno, so maybe he helped Wolves a bit too.
I don't know what the MolMix thinks about him, but if you disagree, I think it's impossible to change my mind. I mean, would anyone call Allardyce an English gentleman?

Good call and regarding Sir Bobby, I would hope the whole of MM would agree the man was a total legend and a true gent to boot

 

[Chisels_n_ommers]

Clough.

Clough is an absolute legend and was a genius to boot.

When they interviewed for the England Job after Revie took the Saudi Doe, Cloughie, Bobby Robson & Lawrie McMenemy were interviewed for the job.

Lawrie says he thought Clough would definitely get it.

He says how they were all waiting in reception at Lancaster Gate when an elderly gentleman walked in and started walking up the stairs, puffing and blowing.

Clough shouted across " Hey I'd take the lift if I were you, you'll never make it up them stairs at your age"

Lawrie says when they eventually went in for the interview, this old gent was one of the FA selection panel!

Oh and they gave the job to Ron Greenwood without an interview.

 

[Deleted member 4456]

On the subject of Fonseca, there's been a lot of money placed on him taking over at Everton in the last few hours.

 

[Fifty Niner]

Isn't that the point of this thread? Someone outside the Premiership merry-go-round. Someone unproven in that league but with obvious skills and talent to potentially - just maybe - do very well.

Absolutely. But with all the money and prestige involved how many Chairmen are willing to take the gamble?

 

[Hull Wolf]

Up here in Hull, the current Hull City manager is living on borrowed time and looks like Slutsky is gonna be out on his **** very soon. Various names are being bandied about, Nigel Adkins seems to be up there but there's a lot of talk about Tony Pulis.....Lord help them

 

[Oldgold Wolfcub]

I cringe every time Unsworth opens his mouth. Ridiculous he's been there 5 weeks. His efforts to come across as a "true blue" after every battering are painful to watch.
At least Terry Connor had the good grace to speak like a bloke who knew he shouldn't have the job.

The best laugh I have had since hearing about sleeping beauty.

 

[kaohsiungwolf]

Silva, Wagner & Nuno have come in.

Equally the influx of foreign managers makes the lack of young British managers even worse.

 

[mcwolf]

albion should not hire Pardew they should stick with megson and keep wolves fans entertained

 

[sillytuna]

The problem is managers are not given a chance. It's always the same ones.

Sam is actually a pretty decent manager but not everyone's cup of tea. Pulis has only one way of doing things but it usually works to a point. However, neither are progressive.

What wolves have done is look at teams such as Monaco and even man city. Instead of the usual approach of throwing money at whatever over the hill name the current manager wants, we appear to have a plan. Top to bottom, throughout the club (online facilities apart).

The football we play is contemporary, the players are picked based on role rather than name or generic ability, and recruitment has been for young, hungry, and highly rated. This means we have an out even if it goes wrong, and we don't have big name issues. We will in future and I do wonder when Jota will decide it's time to move on, but I'm confident we will deal with it.

Look at everton and borough. Both spent a lot of money and both underachieving. No togetherness at either club.

We'll have bumps in the road. We look more susceptible than results have indicated, but we are doing this right.

 

[mcwolf]

wolves have been extremely lucky in bagging owners who have put an infrastructure in place to attract the management team we have .
compare wolves to a host of prem clubs like everton we are streets ahead .

 

[RosehillWolf]

Pardew announced at our mighty neighbours

 

[The Professional]

Pardew announced at our mighty neighbours

He’ll do his usual. He will keep them up this season, and then it will start to go wrong the next season. Probably just about keep them up again, and then get sacked some time after that.

 

[Ponty]

Bobby Robson got lucky in the England job. He insisted on playing Robson and Wilkins and it was only when Robson was injured and Wilkins suspended he played Reid and Hoddle and we actually started playing some football. Hoddle was one of the two world class players we had in 1986, along with Lineker, and the team should have been built around them. (Hoddle is a world class tit but as a player he was outstanding!)

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

I blame the media, they force agenda's on us with this British coaching thing. That article is right, but how many do you see like that?

Instead we read 'needs to have Premier League experience', 'needs to know the league'. Therefore, you're vastly increasing the chances of appointing an English/British manager.

This narrative is said time after time and clearly the club's are believing it. And, ultimately, it's because they're scared.

Look at Marco Silva, he had to go to Hull, who were effectively down, and work a near miracle to get the Watford job. He's managed Sporting Lisbon and Olympiacos but apparently you need 'Premier League' experience. They are both massive club's and the expectation with those two will far outweigh anything he has at Hull and Watford. And, who doesn't 'know' the Premier League? It's the easiest league to watch and 'know' in the world. Do they think he couldn't see how the game is played, the players, the intensity? Of course they could.

The other problem is the ignorance of fans and pundits. Look at Merson and Thompson on Silva. It was disgusting and as mentioned he has managed two massive club's and done well wherever he has been. He deserved respect. Instead they went in on him and suggested Gary Rowett.

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say there's nothing sinister or nasty in their comments, instead that they're just stupid. But, these are pundits on English football's biggest broadcaster. And, they're not alone. Papers, journalists, everyone, believes the rubbish idea.

To me, it's a completely selfish approach.

If you're an English manager, just play along with this, it cosies you up to the journalists/pundits who think they same way, then once you're in favour with them, you can get a job. It's an easy road to go down and as mentioned, it's worked a treat for Allardyce and Moyes.

Tell everyone they need experienced British coaches. Manager sacked. Club are panicking and you and your mates reinforce the need for experienced British coaches. Club panicking more. So much money at stake. Mustn't take a risk. Club really panicking now. Must appoint British manager who knows league. Voila. Big Sam/Moyes/Pulis has a job.

And, repeat.

It's such an old boys network and it's not on. I even heard David Unsworth get many mentions for the Everton job, he bleeds Blue don't you know, because he 'knows' the club. The very same people who go in on Marco Silva.

The fear paralyses the club's and they believe what they read in the media and care to much about how they're perceived by the media.

England is the perfect example of that. I'll actually stick up for Allardyce here, the fact he was sacked was disgraceful and purely because the FA were scared about the reaction in the press. Of course, whilst they should've had a backbone, the issue again is with the press for acting like that in the first place.

With the Premier League that fear is more with losing money, but the attitude of the press can't help.

Look at Albion, getting all sorts of stick for sacking Pulis because he's in that network. The reality is the football was rubbish and they weren't getting points.

Look at the same reaction to Claude Puel and Southampton. Where was the outrage? They're a bigger profile club yet there wasn't much after they sacked a man who took them to a cup final and 8th position, probably above all expectations for the season.

Not only is there no outrage at the time, the only outrage comes about when that very man gets another job with a lower placed side. Erm, what is going on!?

Again, I'm not implying there's sinister actions here. I don't think they're horrible people, I think most are just so ignorant and arrogant when it comes to English football and like-minded fans agree with it.

The same will happen when Brendan Rodgers leaves Celtic. He's worked wonders there, but I guarantee all we'll hear when he does leave is how it's a Mickey Mouse league and how everyone's Nan could win it with them. Not entering the Scottish football debate, but if you genuinely think that Rodgers doesn't deserve any credit for his overall work there, then you fall into that category.

Finally, a MASSIVE thank you to Fosun.

Not sure this topic has been revisited, but I hope people don't try and rewrite history on here. The fact is, there were MANY fans who were upset that Lambert was going, upset that we weren't signing the 'proven Championship players' that he had identified.

I'm not digging them out on it, we've all made daft calls in the past, but everyone seems to have forgotten about it.

We were the exact scenario that I'm talking about here. We had the proven manager and whilst you can't call Lambert's time a success, he wasn't a massive failure and had done just about enough for Fosun to stick by him.

We had the bull**** stories from the press, who stuck up for him. We had the bull**** 'need Championship experience' line, but our board had the balls to make a change and I'm so glad they did and I honestly don't think they get enough credit for it.

Because everything has gone so well people understandably don't want to talk about it, but there was a lot of unhappy posts with the way we went about it.

As I say, well done Fosun for being prepared to change, but you would've faced more stick then ever before had things gone wrong with Nuno, it's how it works in England.

Absolutely fantastic post that I agree with 100% apart from the Celtic bit. It is a Mickey Mouse League with mickey mouse players and ANY manager in the top two divisions in England would win exactly what Rodgers has won. There budget is huge and they are light years above of any of their rivals. FWIW i think Rodgers is a fraud, one good season at Swansea and he was the messiah.

 

[portugaletc]

Bobby Robson got lucky in the England job. He insisted on playing Robson and Wilkins and it was only when Robson was injured and Wilkins suspended he played Reid and Hoddle and we actually started playing some football. Hoddle was one of the two world class players we had in 1986, along with Lineker, and the team should have been built around them. (Hoddle is a world class tit but as a player he was outstanding!)

Well, in Portugal, at Sporting he was completely screwed over and fired despite being first. He got his revenge by turning Porto into a side that beat teams 5-0 quite regularly.
A bit similar to how AVB got screwed at Spuds, but even worse.

 

[goldeneyed]

As we have seen with the appointment of Pardew and the probable appointment of Allardyce at Everton there is a small pool of very average UK managers who go round and round. Lambert would be on that list also along with, Moyes, Bruce, Pulis and McCarthy. Battle hardened veterans who despite ups and downs in their career can get results but who are dinosaurs in modern football terms.
Nuno and Silva represent a far higher level and a more progressive and imaginative type of manager and we are very lucky to at last have someone in charge who actually knows what he is doing and how. Fosun should pull out every penny they can to keep hold of him over the next decade never mind the next season or two. Solbakken was a brave try which backfired badly but to find someone of similar calibre to Nuno right now would be practically impossible as even a club of the size of Everton have discovered.

 

[Mr Wolf]

Equally the influx of foreign managers makes the lack of young British managers even worse.

Nothing wrong with the young foreign managers, it’s the old British managers that clubs with no ambition appoint that keep the younger ones out.

 

[Jonzy54]

As we have seen with the appointment of Pardew and the probable appointment of Allardyce at Everton there is a small pool of very average UK managers who go round and round. Lambert would be on that list also along with, Moyes, Bruce, Pulis and McCarthy. Battle hardened veterans who despite ups and downs in their career can get results but who are dinosaurs in modern football terms.
Nuno and Silva represent a far higher level and a more progressive and imaginative type of manager and we are very lucky to at last have someone in charge who actually knows what he is doing and how. Fosun should pull out every penny they can to keep hold of him over the next decade never mind the next season or two. Solbakken was a brave try which backfired badly but to find someone of similar calibre to Nuno right now would be practically impossible as even a club of the size of Everton have discovered.

Don't forget Hodgson

 

[Macman]

 

[portugaletc]

 

[Gedwolf]

Weird watching Everton v West Ham with Moyes managing hammers and Allardicé about to manage toffees. Shows how incestuous the managerial gene pool is

 

[Flump]

I'd also draw a line between Big Sam and Pulis, who are limited, but fantastic at what they do, and people like Moyes & Pardew, who are just utterly mediocre and yet keep getting good jobs.

 

[wwbug]

The problem may be the lack of knowledge by the average owner who buys a "housewife's choice", and the infantile British Footballer, who needs an authoritative daddy to look up to and respect.

 

[AW]

A few years ago I read the book 'Soccernomics'. It dedicated a chapter to explaining why England are so poor on the world stage compared to a number of European countries. One of the arguments it puts across is to do with the nationality of the manager and essentially said that England will never achieve huge success whilst having an English manager. It is all to do with the spread of ideas and information; football is like technology. Ideas and styles become obsolete and you need to be trying new things to be better than your opponent. In Europe, these ideas and people associated with them flow all around the continent however England does not buy into this and has a more isolationist approach which means that they achieve less success.

I think a little of this creeps in with the dinosaur squad. They are so predictable and struggle to adapt their style. Yes, they know the league and what is required of them and can motivate their players but they will ultimately be found out and will be shipped on with a big package and can easily find a job with the next club in need.

 

[kaohsiungwolf]

Nothing wrong with the young foreign managers, it’s the old British managers that clubs with no ambition appoint that keep the younger ones out.

13 PL managers so far this season have been non-British/Irish, personally I don't think a few older managers, Big Sam, Hodgson and David Moyes are the wider problem here in regards young managers. Are foreign appointments exempt from lacking ambition on the basis that, they're foreign? Seems that way.

The issue is obviously very complex, but I think we're looking for a scapegoat here. Sam Allardyce might not be exotic but he will likely keep Everton up which is why precisely why he's there.

 

[Mr Wolf]

13 PL managers so far this season have been non-British/Irish, personally I don't think a few older managers, Big Sam, Hodgson and David Moyes are the wider problem here in regards young managers. Are foreign appointments exempt from lacking ambition on the basis that, they're foreign? Seems that way.

The issue is obviously very complex, but I think we're looking for a scapegoat here. Sam Allardyce might not be exotic but he will likely keep Everton up which is why precisely why he's there.

Look at the coaches they have appointed also, Stuart Pearce, John Carver, some old guy next to Hodgson. No young blood there either.

It is complex but for me I’m sick of seeing the same old names being wheeled out time after time. Pulis will be a at Swansea before the new year.

 

[1312]

This about sums it up. Manager's nationality by virtue of league position. Top two are naturally Spanish and Portuguese