The evidence

[Glass ankles]

Still fuming. For anyone that hasn't seen it...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1611866140967591936

 

[SA Wolf]

If I could see what was happening on that video, I'd be a ****ing owl. Looked like Dougan got the final touch, mind!

 

[Golden_Wolf]

Absolute ****take

 

[Gold Umbro]

This might be clearer

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

So clear to see we was cheated oh well Klopp Will cry about replays next

 

[Loefah]

View attachment 32329
This might be clearer

It comes off a Wolves head for the first clearance. Apparently it doesn't matter anymore that the ball goes backwards, it can still be offside. That's the only thing I think it can be.

 

[ombyman]

Honestly, yesterday evening was the worst 'football experience' i have ever had. I hope the cretins running the show just appreciate how utterly shambolic and corrupt their product looks to neutral viewers and how deeply it affects fans. Total clowns.
After over 30 years as a fan, why am i questioning, aged 41, if I want to still be watching football? They have done this.

 

[ombyman]

It comes off a Wolves head for the first clearance. Apparently it doesn't matter anymore that the ball goes backwards, it can still be offside. That's the only thing I think it can be.

ok, but how is he interfering with play when he is miles away from everyone?

 

[Saltyjim]

The most annoying thing is the that because of Alexander Arnold's position its obvious the linesman is just guessing as he can't see Nunes on the other side of the pitch.
I reckon he went with his instinct knowing VAR would clarify and - just our luck - for once there was no decent camera footage available. Which is the real scandal.

 

[Loefah]

ok, but how is he interfering with play when he is miles away from everyone?

Because the ball goes back to Nunes and he puts the cross in for the goal.

The offside rule is a bit of a mystery these days anyway. Stupid that you can be offside when a ball goes backwards.

 

[Zico]

It comes off a Wolves head for the first clearance. Apparently it doesn't matter anymore that the ball goes backwards, it can still be offside. That's the only thing I think it can be.

On this view, it possibly was. I'm not sure it ever mattered that the ball goes backwards, I think what matters is whether the player in the offside position is behind the ball, which Nunes wasn't.

 

[Chris H]

That’s not 100% accurate but it’s near enough and shows Nunes feet a good half a yard inside the line. He’s stood straight so his back foot is the furthest point forward, same as Alexander-Arnold’s who is also leaning away from goal.

A more accurate line may show it to be a closer call but there’s a big enough gap that I’m adamant it’d still be onside in my view.

 

[Chris H]

It comes off a Wolves head for the first clearance. Apparently it doesn't matter anymore that the ball goes backwards, it can still be offside. That's the only thing I think it can be.

It may well have come off Collins, but Hwang then heads it on and at that point Nunes is back onside. I’ve posted a rough picture of that point with a line showing roughly where they are and I’m adamant Nunes in on when Hwang touches the ball.

Surely Hwang touching it makes Collins initial touch irrelevant.

 

[Loefah]

It may well have come off Collins, but Hwang then heads it on and at that point Nunes is back onside. I’ve posted a rough picture of that point with a line showing roughly where they are and I’m adamant Nunes in on when Hwang touches the ball.

Surely Hwang touching it makes Collins initial touch irrelevant.

I think it's the same phase of play in this instance? Not sure.

If they hadn't made a pigs ear of reviewing and explaining it, we would know.

 

[King Henry VIII]

It comes off a Wolves head for the first clearance. Apparently it doesn't matter anymore that the ball goes backwards, it can still be offside. That's the only thing I think it can be.

But that header didn't go to Nunes but to Hwang.

It's Hwang's hear to Nunes that makes Nunes "active in the phase" and he is clearly inside at that point.

 

[Chris H]

I think it's the same phase of play in this instance? Not sure.

If they hadn't made a pigs ear of reviewing and explaining it, we would know.

It might be but I don’t get why that’s relevant.

As a comparison players stand in an offside position at free kicks all the time and then fall back in line after the ball is played in to the be onside after the next touch and that’s never given as offside otherwise surely a linesman just flags as soon as the free kick is taken?

EDIT: An example that fits is Jota’s hat trick goal against Leicester. He was way off when Neves makes the pass but on when Jimenez plays it across. Same phase of play but no one suggested he was off because the initial ball didn’t go to him directly.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

I think the world and his dog knows that the decision was wrong now. Trouble is that it’s hours after the game has finished and it’s too late. I suspect those in the VAR booth also thought Nunes was onside, but strangely had no evidence to prove it…

 

[Loefah]

It might be but I don’t get why that’s relevant.

As a comparison players stand in an offside position at free kicks all the time and then fall back in line after the ball is played in to the be onside after the next touch and that’s never given as offside otherwise surely a linesman just flags as soon as the free kick is taken?

Maybe yeah. Like the Salah goal, when certain players become active or not and phases of play make it so confusing these days.

 

[floydstreet]

I’ve said for years it’s simple

Use var for is it over the line

And for offsides but with a thick line so it’s for clear and obvious. The rest down to the refs who will get stuff wrong ofc

Oh and clearly change the offside law around salahs goal. Never deliberate from Toti and he’s offside

Oh and linesman flag straight away

Oh and involve the ex players in var

We all accept crap human error decisions
But when it’s on a screen how can you accept that ?

Also / Liverpool should be fined points for having a none functioning var system that twice has missed a part of the pitch. Appalling

 

[Netherton Wolf]

Has anyone actually seen/heard/read officially why the goal was ruled out?? Ive seen various reasons?

 

[jrpb-3]

So is it the Collins or the Hwang Header that is the one that counts ?
The ball going forwards or backwards is irrelevant (not part of the rule)
If Nunes is in an offside position ( < 2 defenders in front) and is in front of the ball when it is played is what would determine offside



In both decisions for the 2 goals regardless of whether they were right or not to the letter of the law, in both cases they would seem to go against the intended purpose of the offside rule i.e. to prevent an attacker from gaining an advantage.

Salah clearly does gain an advantage from his position
Nunes gains no advantage, in face if he was in an offside position he'd be at a disadvantage compared to an onside position as the headers go backwards so he'd be further away,

 

[thommo1984]

So is it the Collins or the Hwang Header that is the one that counts ?
The ball going forwards or backwards is irrelevant (not part of the rule)
If Nunes is in an offside position ( < 2 defenders in front) and is in front of the ball when it is played is what would determine offside



In both decisions for the 2 goals regardless of whether they were right or not to the letter of the law, in both cases they would seem to go against the intended purpose of the offside rule i.e. to prevent an attacker from gaining an advantage.

Salah clearly does gain an advantage from his position
Nunes gains no advantage, in face if he was in an offside position he'd be at a disadvantage compared to an onside position as the headers go backwards so he'd be further away,

It has to be Hwang’s header given where Nunes is on the pitch. Collins header wasn’t going to Nunes so there’s no way it’s the same phase.

 

[WWFC4EVA]

I await Dermot Gallagher coming out in defence of all the decisions on Sky Sports tomorrow!
Paid up members of the Cartel, the lot of 'em!!!

 

[Alex Rae The Substitute]

Thing is, they’re correct in their application of the rules that there was no available VAR camera angle that could decisively rule the lino’s decision either way so they had to go with the on field decision. The footage that has emerged today I believe is from a Wolves tactical camera feed not a feed VAR had.

The unacceptable thing is that one of the newest stands in the PL at one of the self-titled biggest clubs in the world didn’t have suitable camera rigs to man VAR correctly. That is shockingly bad and stinks of negligence.

I may be being a conspiracy theorist here, but can’t help but feel if Liverpool score that third goal in the same circumstances the linesman doesn’t flag, and challenges VAR to rule the goal out rather than rule the goal in. I’m sure of it. What linesman is going to flag for a late Liverpool winner at Anfield on a marginal call, when he knows VAR will check anyway and spare his blushes.

 

[Spitfire]

I await Dermot Gallagher coming out in defence of all the decisions on Sky Sports tomorrow!
Paid up members of the Cartel, the lot of 'em!!!

Not sure they’ll even discuss it as they haven’t got the footage. Very convenient .

 

[WWFC4EVA]

Not sure they’ll even discuss it as they haven’t got the footage. Very convenient .

I predict that Sky will lay their hands on some, merely as a dick swinging exercise, to show how they are seemingly more competent than other broadcasters!

 

[Spitfire]

I predict that Sky will lay their hands on some, merely as a dick swinging exercise, to show how they are seemingly more competent than other broadcasters!

Hope you’re right .

 

[fleck1]

Maybe yeah. Like the Salah goal, when certain players become active or not and phases of play make it so confusing these days.

I couldn't believe more wasn't made of this one, surely salah running past Toti in to an offside position affects his decision. Toti has to stretch and try to get something on the ball as he is aware the man is there and can't be sure he's offside. So how can Salah not be interfering with play.

 

[Boss Hogg]

I thought the linesman’s flag when he finally put it up was straight out not held at an angle indicating the offside was in the centre not the far side of the pitch?

 

[Surrey Wolf]

Farcical

 

[Spitfire]

I thought the linesman’s flag when he finally put it up was straight out not held at an angle indicating the offside was in the centre not the far side of the pitch?

Just checked. It was raised slightly. The delay in raising it is the damning evidence for me. All our players looked across to the linesman to check and them immediately ran after Toti to celebrate when there was no initial flag.

 

[Irish_Wolf]

As for Salahs goal, this is what happens in Scotland

https://twitter.com/x/status/1611836671036690435

 

[Kashmire Hawker]

Having seen the Match of the Day analysis, it makes me even more livid.

Roll on using the anger in the Replay!

 

[molineux man]

Here's my effort at line drawing, the proportion of red vs blue is lower for TAA, hence clearly onside

 

[Glass ankles]

Had SSN on for the last hour and they've not mentioned it once. If it were the other way around, it would be talked about every 5 mins

 

[wulfie88]

 

[jrpb-3]

I couldn't believe more wasn't made of this one, surely salah running past Toti in to an offside position affects his decision. Toti has to stretch and try to get something on the ball as he is aware the man is there and can't be sure he's offside. So how can Salah not be interfering with play.

down to the change that came in this year

What do the rules say?​

Both incidents center around when a new phase of play starts, and what is a deliberate action.

According to Law 11 in the FA's rules: "A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball, including by deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent.

"A 'save' is when a player stops, or attempts to stop, a ball which is going into or very close to the goal with any part of the body except the hands/arms (unless the goalkeeper within the penalty area)."


Salah's goal was not ruled out as a result of Toti's header, which was deemed Toti deliberately played the ball to clear it. But it also says player who is in control of the ball, and that's questionable, if Toti was in control of the ball there's no way he heads it backwards to where Salah is he heads it forwards.
(It's the rules that make no sense in this case

Here's the text

"'Deliberate play' is when a player has control of the ball with the possibility of passing the ball to a team-mate, gaining possession of the ball, or clearing the ball," IFAB's clarified guidelines state.

 

[jrpb-3]

It has to be Hwang’s header given where Nunes is on the pitch. Collins header wasn’t going to Nunes so there’s no way it’s the same phase.

from BBC Site

Seems to agree that it should be Hwangs header and that Collins Header to Hwang starts a second phase of play. So from footage seen looks like Nunes was onside for that header, not sure what angles VAR did have but some of the footage I've seen would seem to be clear enough for them to have used to make a decision ?

​

What do the rules say?​

Both incidents centre around when a new phase of play starts, and what is a deliberate action.

According to Law 11 in the FA's rules: "A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball, including by deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent.

"A 'save' is when a player stops, or attempts to stop, a ball which is going into or very close to the goal with any part of the body except the hands/arms (unless the goalkeeper within the penalty area)."

The assistant referee believed Nunes was offside when Hwang headed the ball - which started a new phase of play - and VAR had no clear evidence to overturn that decision.

 

[kennyB]

I very much hope that all the officials in the Liverpool game are relegated to non-league football for the rest of the season and have to learn the rules. I know it won't happen but it should. PL referees who don't know the rules....humbug!

 

[lobodelsur]

As for Salahs goal, this is what happens in Scotland

https://twitter.com/x/status/1611836671036690435

Just shows that there is absolutely no consistency in decision making even when VAR is used. If anything, VAR is adding confusion to decision making.