The evidence

[old wittonian]

Thing is, they’re correct in their application of the rules that there was no available VAR camera angle that could decisively rule the lino’s decision either way so they had to go with the on field decision. The footage that has emerged today I believe is from a Wolves tactical camera feed not a feed VAR had.

The unacceptable thing is that one of the newest stands in the PL at one of the self-titled biggest clubs in the world didn’t have suitable camera rigs to man VAR correctly. That is shockingly bad and stinks of negligence.

I may be being a conspiracy theorist here, but can’t help but feel if Liverpool score that third goal in the same circumstances the linesman doesn’t flag, and challenges VAR to rule the goal out rather than rule the goal in. I’m sure of it. What linesman is going to flag for a late Liverpool winner at Anfield on a marginal call, when he knows VAR will check anyway and spare his blushes.

It has been said that the assistant referee only flagged because the referee told him to. In which case he is not assisting but being dictated to.

 

[Shergar]

Video footage from the VAR screens has just been released.…
.

 

[sedgwolf1980]

Imagine the dogs abuse Toti would get if he had just left it, and Salah had ended up being onside.

Every single piece of instinct in a footballers body tells them to go for that ball, it’s ingrained since 5 years old. That we now have a law that penalises that is just beyond absurb.

Whilst I’m on my soapbox too, one of the most bizarre bits from the night was when RAN went down injured, was refused treatment and essentially told he needs to get subbed, by the ref!!! Amazed more hadn’t been made of that too, could hardly believe what I was watching.

 

[Bill S Preston Esq.]

ok, but how is he interfering with play when he is miles away from everyone?

He's not. By the time the ball is played to Nunes, he's onside. Kept on by a GK and at least two red defenders.

 

[Contrarian]

I very much hope that all the officials in the Liverpool game are relegated to non-league football for the rest of the season and have to learn the rules. I know it won't happen but it should. PL referees who don't know the rules....humbug!

More likely is that they will be promoted and given "key" fixtures as they have shown that the "right" teams are safe when these officials.

 

[Bill S Preston Esq.]

Thing is, they’re correct in their application of the rules that there was no available VAR camera angle that could decisively rule the lino’s decision either way so they had to go with the on field decision. The footage that has emerged today I believe is from a Wolves tactical camera feed not a feed VAR had.

The unacceptable thing is that one of the newest stands in the PL at one of the self-titled biggest clubs in the world didn’t have suitable camera rigs to man VAR correctly. That is shockingly bad and stinks of negligence.

I may be being a conspiracy theorist here, but can’t help but feel if Liverpool score that third goal in the same circumstances the linesman doesn’t flag, and challenges VAR to rule the goal out rather than rule the goal in. I’m sure of it. What linesman is going to flag for a late Liverpool winner at Anfield on a marginal call, when he knows VAR will check anyway and spare his blushes.

Which begs the question, why even flag when you're expecting a VAR check anyway?

We all know why he flagged though, to assist the cash cow LFC.

It should be policy to not flag when a goal has been scored as you know the footage can be forensically examined so what's the point?

 

[Deleted member (smith)]

Can someone clarify for me 1 did the ref signal to the linesman? If so why?
2 when did he raise his flag?

 

[maws]

Here, the linesman’s flag is down, our lads are off to celebrate, balls in the net, not a single Liverpool player think so it’s offside.

Look at the ref, he’s looking at the linesman, no arm in the air for a goal, he never has any intention of giving that goal. Something stinks here

 

[wolvesjoe]

View attachment 32343
Here, the linesman’s flag is down, our lads are off to celebrate, balls in the net, not a single Liverpool player think so it’s offside.

Look at the ref, he’s looking at the linesman, no arm in the air for a goal, he never has any intention of giving that goal. Something stinks here

There's a picture floating around, which shows Madeley indicating to the linesman to raise his flag. It would make sense that he was told to do this by Dean, as they put together a quick way of ruling the goal out. There may well be evidence of this, both photographically and audibly if the conversation is leaked.

 

[Wiltshire Wolfie]

The evidence now is clear and obvious.......

VAR does not work properly and is not fit for purpose.
Withdraw it from use at the end of this season and just solely use goalline technology via the referees watch buzzer.

Let's get back to old style football refereeing and linesmen flagging instantly, sometimes we swore at them but accepted the human error issue now and then.

the scientists in white coats must go.

 

[maws]

The evidence now is clear and obvious.......

VAR does not work properly and is not fit for purpose.
Withdraw it from use at the end of this season and just solely use goalline technology via the referees watch buzzer.

Let's get back to old style football refereeing and linesmen flagging instantly, sometimes we swore at them but accepted the human error issue now and then.

the scientists in white coats must go.

Not sure if ever call Mike dean a scientist

 

[old wittonian]

Imagine the dogs abuse Toti would get if he had just left it, and Salah had ended up being onside.

Every single piece of instinct in a footballers body tells them to go for that ball, it’s ingrained since 5 years old. That we now have a law that penalises that is just beyond absurb.

Whilst I’m on my soapbox too, one of the most bizarre bits from the night was when RAN went down injured, was refused treatment and essentially told he needs to get subbed, by the ref!!! Amazed more hadn’t been made of that too, could hardly believe what I was watching.

That was appalling.

 

[jrpb-3]

it's the lack of clarity in these cases that is the most annoying thing, and the way things are done differently in the Prem and under UEFA guidance (which the FA Cup follows) with regard to showing VAR reasoning/images etc. In this case initially no one in the ground of commentary etc knew who was supposed to have been offside. Then we're told no definitive angle, but what we havn't or won't get to see is what angle(s)/footage they did have, certainly some of the TV Footage shown does seem to show onside for when Hwang plays the ball, so what is deemed to be a definitive angle or not. Referees performances are assessed, is there any assessment of VAR officials decisions ?

 

[maws]

It’s all so bad none of us are even really mentioning a very good penalty claim

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

This won't be a popular opinion, but here goes....

The lino thinks Nunes is offside, but he's not sure, so he doesn't flag.
We score the goal.
The ref says is that goal OK?
The lino says, I think the corner taker was offside.
The ref says and indicates' well stick your flag up'.
So the lino flags.
Mike Dean (all hope dies here) looks at the angles available and decides it's not clear that he can overrule the lino.

So we're done by human error (by the lino), ITV's lack of a decent camera angle. It's not a conspiracy, there's a bit of incompetence a hint of unconscious bias and of course Mike Dean hates us, but that's a given.

So I'm aggrieved today, but some of this stuff is a bit silly.

 

[maws]

This won't be a popular opinion, but here goes....

The lino thinks Nunes is offside, but he's not sure, so he doesn't flag.
We score the goal.
The ref says is that goal OK?
The lino says, I think the corner taker was offside.
The ref says and indicates' well stick your flag up'.
So the lino flags.
Mike Dean (all hope dies here) looks at the angles available and decides it's not clear that he can overrule the lino.

So we're done by human error (by the lino), ITV's lack of a decent camera angle. It's not a conspiracy, there's a bit of incompetence a hint of unconscious bias and of course Mike Dean hates us, but that's a given.

So I'm aggrieved today, but some of this stuff is a bit silly.

Hmmm, the Salah goal, the non penalty, the ludicrous yellow we got that Liverpool player didn’t get at the end, the potential foot in Adams’s face? All went against us, every single one. What call did go our way??
Also the linesman will have no idea who headed the ball away from goal, in fact you’d think it would be a Liverpool player as that’s their aim. So the lino is surely guessing. If we’ve got officials guessing then fair enough var clears it up. Oh hold one of the biggest clubs in the world doesn’t have all the cameras??

I don’t think we are going too far mate. It’s like the PPE scandals, tell me you think everything there’s fair? Corruption goes through this country and footballs included

 

[DJW]

Because the ball goes back to Nunes and he puts the cross in for the goal.

The offside rule is a bit of a mystery these days anyway. Stupid that you can be offside when a ball goes backwards.

Doesn't Collins head it to Hwang? and when it comes off Hwangs heads Nunes is miles onside. Either way an investigation into why the camera wasn't working should be carried out and Liverpool should receive a huge fine.

 

[WWFC4EVA]

I'd suspend every single one of the officials involved, with immediate effect, pending an inquiry or investigation!

 

[Incognito]

It comes off a Wolves head for the first clearance. Apparently it doesn't matter anymore that the ball goes backwards, it can still be offside. That's the only thing I think it can be.

But it has nothing to do with the direction of travel of the ball. The bottom line is when Hwang touches it, Nunes is in an onside position. The fact that the linesman did not raise his flag at the time and only raised it when told to by the ref to do so, after the goal, and that VAR conveniently lost a camera, smacks of remarkable ineptitude at best, disgusting corruption at worst. I think we all know, even LiVARpool fans, which one it is. The game has gone.

 

[jrpb-3]

This won't be a popular opinion, but here goes....

The lino thinks Nunes is offside, but he's not sure, so he doesn't flag.
We score the goal.
The ref says is that goal OK?
The lino says, I think the corner taker was offside.
The ref says and indicates' well stick your flag up'.
So the lino flags.
Mike Dean (all hope dies here) looks at the angles available and decides it's not clear that he can overrule the lino.

So we're done by human error (by the lino), ITV's lack of a decent camera angle. It's not a conspiracy, there's a bit of incompetence a hint of unconscious bias and of course Mike Dean hates us, but that's a given.

So I'm aggrieved today, but some of this stuff is a bit silly.

sounds about right, the question really is how clear or not was the footage VAR did have, that's what we don't get to know. If VAR wants to be tramsparant and has nothing to hide then lets see the footage they did have available

 

[jrpb-3]

As for Salahs goal, this is what happens in Scotland

https://twitter.com/x/status/1611836671036690435

the IFAB site has a whole selection of videos for guidance about what should and shouldn't be seen as deliberately playing the ball in these cases,, (videos 11 and 12 are a similar header and guidance there is not deliberate).. Have to say having watched a few theres not a lot of difference between some they deem as deliberate and some not deliberate
Law 11 - Offside: ‘deliberate play’ guidelines clarified | IFAB

 

[A wanderer from Bristol]

This won't be a popular opinion, but here goes....

The lino thinks Nunes is offside, but he's not sure, so he doesn't flag.
We score the goal.
The ref says is that goal OK?
The lino says, I think the corner taker was offside.
The ref says and indicates' well stick your flag up'.
So the lino flags.
Mike Dean (all hope dies here) looks at the angles available and decides it's not clear that he can overrule the lino.

So we're done by human error (by the lino), ITV's lack of a decent camera angle. It's not a conspiracy, there's a bit of incompetence a hint of unconscious bias and of course Mike Dean hates us, but that's a given.

So I'm aggrieved today, but some of this stuff is a bit silly.

Agree with this. Let's not go all JFK on conspiracy theories. Unconscious bias and incompetence yes but let's not pretend that the linesman and the ref are consciously trying to cheat Wolves out of a winner.

It's still a major **** up from VAR, as is the Salah goal, and we have every reason to feel completely aggrieved on both counts. But Mike Dean is not the shooter on the grassy knoll, he's just an attention seeking **** who has ****ed us over once again

 

[SA Wolf]

I've just watched the whole game again. The flag was definitely in the air when Wolves were celebrating in the corner. If the ref told the lino to flag, then he was very quick to do so, within a couple of seconds of the 'goal' being scored! Even the commentator said 'wait, the goal maybe ruled out for offside'. This while VAR was still considering.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

sounds about right, the question really is how clear or not was the footage VAR did have, that's what we don't get to know. If VAR wants to be tramsparant and has nothing to hide then lets see the footage they did have available

Well I saw the MOTD coverage this morning and they said they showed all the angles they had, none of those were conclusive. You can't really wait for people to upload videos to Twitter. I can be as bitter as the next guy, but I think we have to keep things realistic. If people really believe it's fixed as opposed to some unconscious bias and a lot of incompetence, I really don't know why they go.

 

[jrpb-3]

Well I saw the MOTD coverage this morning and they said they showed all the angles they had, none of those were conclusive. You can't really wait for people to upload videos to Twitter. I can be as bitter as the next guy, but I think we have to keep things realistic. If people really believe it's fixed as opposed to some unconscious bias and a lot of incompetence, I really don't know why they go.

I'm not suggesting its fixed or bias or anything, but if they show the footage its then clear what basis they are making decision on, as you say a lot of the footage that has been shown it's not entirely clear, what we have now is people left guessing as to what VAR did or didn't do, showing their angle is hardly going to make it more contentious than it already is

 

[greco wolf]

I can’t believe they don’t have an angle that shows the incident. They literally have tv cameras everywhere. It’s poor. We will soon need a second VAR team to review VAR

It’s farcical - it’s not a top six thing or people against us. It’s just poor. We may as well go back to pre-VAR if we can cannot use it. As it still relies on humans which is what we had before !

 

[jrpb-3]

I can’t believe they don’t have an angle that shows the incident. They literally have tv cameras everywhere. It’s poor. We will soon need a second VAR team to review VAR

It’s farcical - it’s not a top six thing or people against us. It’s just poor. We may as well go back to pre-VAR if we can cannot use it. As it still relies on humans which is what we had before !

I'm sure there was a camera in a position that could have covered it, but if that camera is not pointing the right way, or zoomed in too far then you don't get that bit of footage, what we still don't know (and never will) is what footage VAR did actually have

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Hmmm, the Salah goal, the non penalty, the ludicrous yellow we got that Liverpool player didn’t get at the end, the potential foot in Adams’s face? All went against us, every single one. What call did go our way??
Also the linesman will have no idea who headed the ball away from goal, in fact you’d think it would be a Liverpool player as that’s their aim. So the lino is surely guessing. If we’ve got officials guessing then fair enough var clears it up. Oh hold one of the biggest clubs in the world doesn’t have all the cameras??

I don’t think we are going too far mate. It’s like the PPE scandals, tell me you think everything there’s fair? Corruption goes through this country and footballs included

OK, best not get me started on PPE . We certainly didn't get much off the ref (again) last night. The Salah one is beyond ridiculous, but blame the idiot rule makers as much as the ref/lino,nobody really knows if it's offside any more! He didn't give any of those Cunha sort of contacts anywhere, some were free kicks for me, but he was consistent I guess. The camera availability is down to ITV, I think this has happened before and is a flaw in the theory you can have VAR, ITV and BBC don't use as many cameras as Sky. I'm not saying it's transparent enough, or fair (never has been), just that there isn't a conspiracy against us!

 

[ewarwoowar]

Imagine the dogs abuse Toti would get if he had just left it, and Salah had ended up being onside.

Every single piece of instinct in a footballers body tells them to go for that ball, it’s ingrained since 5 years old. That we now have a law that penalises that is just beyond absurb.

Whilst I’m on my soapbox too, one of the most bizarre bits from the night was when RAN went down injured, was refused treatment and essentially told he needs to get subbed, by the ref!!! Amazed more hadn’t been made of that too, could hardly believe what I was watching.

i noticed that, imagine saying that to trent or whatever he is called,he would be drummed out of the brownies

 

[JohnB]

Yesterday reminded me of a boxing contest where close rounds go to the home boxer and to win the rounds you had to be clearly ahead.

The number of barges into the back of Wolves players - Jonny, Cunha, Traore - some of which may have been a Harry Kane “bought” a foul as I’ve not seen back on TV but would generally have been given were significant. Every 50/50 against us.

Goals were down to Mike Dean. I’m incredulous no camera angle for Toti goal. I’m somewhat bemused by Salah goal.

Looking forward to playing them 3 times in a month or so. Could be spicy and we know our second team can give them a good game.

 

[Ned]

View attachment 32343
Here, the linesman’s flag is down, our lads are off to celebrate, balls in the net, not a single Liverpool player think so it’s offside.

Look at the ref, he’s looking at the linesman, no arm in the air for a goal, he never has any intention of giving that goal. Something stinks here

Bang on. I should have stayed off here today as im more angry than I was last night somehow.

It’s corrupt. I usually don’t buy in to all that stuff but this is corruption and it stinks.

 

[fleck1]

down to the change that came in this year

What do the rules say?​

Both incidents center around when a new phase of play starts, and what is a deliberate action.

According to Law 11 in the FA's rules: "A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball, including by deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent.

"A 'save' is when a player stops, or attempts to stop, a ball which is going into or very close to the goal with any part of the body except the hands/arms (unless the goalkeeper within the penalty area)."


Salah's goal was not ruled out as a result of Toti's header, which was deemed Toti deliberately played the ball to clear it. But it also says player who is in control of the ball, and that's questionable, if Toti was in control of the ball there's no way he heads it backwards to where Salah is he heads it forwards.
(It's the rules that make no sense in this case

Here's the text

"'Deliberate play' is when a player has control of the ball with the possibility of passing the ball to a team-mate, gaining possession of the ball, or clearing the ball," IFAB's clarified guidelines state.

Yeh I know the current ruling, but under that Toti is expected to leave the ball and hope that nobody else is playing Salah inside which is farcical. Then it become the new favourite word" subjective" as to whether he made a deliberate attempt to play the ball and was he in control. Which again plays in to the officials hands as they give everything in favour of the big clubs.

 

[Luke Blakenhall]

Nobody seems to have mentioned the foul on Adama Traore right at the end of added time before the final whistle! A few seconds to go and he is steaming towards the Liverpool penalty area and cutting in towards the centre (possibly to get in a shot or pass to a colleague). The Liverpool player behind him then blatantly pushes him in the back (with both hands as I recall) and he understandably goes over. Blatant free kick just outside the area which would give Wolves the chance of a last kick winner past a Red wall. BUT the referee just waves play on - indeed I think he gave a free kick to Liverpool for what I have no idea! My thoughts on the officials (inc the VAR Team!!!!!) are unprintable!

 

[maws]

OK, best not get me started on PPE . We certainly didn't get much off the ref (again) last night. The Salah one is beyond ridiculous, but blame the idiot rule makers as much as the ref/lino,nobody really knows if it's offside any more! He didn't give any of those Cunha sort of contacts anywhere, some were free kicks for me, but he was consistent I guess. The camera availability is down to ITV, I think this has happened before and is a flaw in the theory you can have VAR, ITV and BBC don't use as many cameras as Sky. I'm not saying it's transparent enough, or fair (never has been), just that there isn't a conspiracy against us!

It’s not against us per se, it’s against the teams lower ends of the food chain

 

[Wulve5]

If it’s up the other end it’s not getting chalked off and that’s the infuriating part .

 

[ewarwoowar]

89th minute kop end liverpool need a point to win the league,would any of those two decisions go against them?answers on a post card

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

down to the change that came in this year

What do the rules say?​

Both incidents center around when a new phase of play starts, and what is a deliberate action.

According to Law 11 in the FA's rules: "A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball, including by deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent.

"A 'save' is when a player stops, or attempts to stop, a ball which is going into or very close to the goal with any part of the body except the hands/arms (unless the goalkeeper within the penalty area)."


Salah's goal was not ruled out as a result of Toti's header, which was deemed Toti deliberately played the ball to clear it. But it also says player who is in control of the ball, and that's questionable, if Toti was in control of the ball there's no way he heads it backwards to where Salah is he heads it forwards.
(It's the rules that make no sense in this case

Here's the text

"'Deliberate play' is when a player has control of the ball with the possibility of passing the ball to a team-mate, gaining possession of the ball, or clearing the ball," IFAB's clarified guidelines state.

Cheers. I'd say it's pretty clear from that it should have been given offside even under the current laws.

If Toti brings it down and tries to pass it back to Sakic but gives it to Salah, then fair enough onside. As it is he can't quite reach the header properly and therefore is never in control of the ball and hence not 'deliberately playing the ball'. At the risk of getting deeply into the language there's a difference between deliberate as opposed to accidental and deliberate as in with deliberation.

 

[Tring Wolf]

This won't be a popular opinion, but here goes....

The lino thinks Nunes is offside, but he's not sure, so he doesn't flag.
We score the goal.
The ref says is that goal OK?
The lino says, I think the corner taker was offside.
The ref says and indicates' well stick your flag up'.
So the lino flags.
Mike Dean (all hope dies here) looks at the angles available and decides it's not clear that he can overrule the lino.

So we're done by human error (by the lino), ITV's lack of a decent camera angle. It's not a conspiracy, there's a bit of incompetence a hint of unconscious bias and of course Mike Dean hates us, but that's a given.

So I'm aggrieved today, but some of this stuff is a bit silly.

This is exactly what I think happened. It’s a hugely annoying human error.

Of course, the real scandal is not having the camera angles for VAR available, which as we have now seen, would have over-ruled it and awarded the goal.

The Salah one is the right decision. It’s one of the worst rules in football, but under it, it’s correct. Some of the other decisions were just absolute dog**** though.

 

[Beijing Wolf]

Bang on. I should have stayed off here today as im more angry than I was last night somehow.

It’s corrupt. I usually don’t buy in to all that stuff but this is corruption and it stinks.

I’m still angry about that “handball” against Doherty in the away game at Burnley a few years ago!

1. Doherty was protecting his face from a dangerous HIGH BOOT.
2. It was also a case of BALL TO HAND

Yet somehow they award a penalty. That essential cost us a place in Europe the next season.

We have really had some rotten decisions against us. VAR just seems to have exposed it more.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

I’m still angry about that “handball” against Doherty in the away game at Burnley a few years ago!

1. Doherty was protecting his face from a dangerous HIGH BOOT.
2. It was also a case of BALL TO HAND

Yet somehow they award a penalty. That essential cost us a place in Europe the next season.

We have really had some rotten decisions against us. VAR just seems to have exposed it more.

When you say 'they'.....