Is Messi the GOAT?

[Bacon Sandwich]

I found the Argentina game almost unwatchable last night due to the ridiculous fawning over Messi by the BBC. As someone rightly said, it was a wonder he could play at all with Murphy so far up his ****.
Is he the greatest of all time? For me it's an emphatic 'no.' I think his numbers are skewed by season after season of games against Huesca, Levante, and others in La Liga.
I'd have Ronaldo above Messi, simply because he's done it in England, Spain and Italy - and while I'm too young to give an accurate view on Pele, I'd say both Best and Cruyff in my lifetime were above Messi. Given the mudbaths Best frequently played on, God only knows how many goals he'd have scored on today's perfect pitches.
Anyway, over to you...

 

[Willywolf]

The way Messi keeps and manipulates the ball, sees things others don’t, brings others into play is different to anyone I’ve ever seen play. He had a little pace earlier on in his career, and the ball looked glued to his feet. As you rightly point out, Ronaldo has done it at different clubs in 3 different countries and there’s no arguing that he is also phenomenal. But in terms of sheer entertainment, unpredictability, ability to create something special from absolutely nowhere, the number of goals scored even though he’s not a striker, my opinion is that he is the best player I’ve seen.

I’m 43 and haven’t seen some of the other greats over time, so it’s very difficult to compare directly. It’s like with boxing and f1, there are always arguments over who is the GOAT. It is virtually impossible to say as the sports have moved forward at a tremendous pace over the last 20-30 years. Technology has improved meaning the current best has access to far superior gear/machinery/fitness aides. Modern athletes also take their profession much more seriously now than ever before (unsurprising given the huge amounts of money involved).

So to try and compare and label someone as the GOAT is a really difficult task fraught with plenty of arguments for/against people’s own personal favourite. Messi is my favourite alongside Zidane. That doesn’t necessarily mean I think he is the GOAT, just that I recognise he is an unbelievably gifted player that I enjoy watching ply his trade.

 

[Minimalist]

I’m not sure what the answer is but I do think the standard of opposition messi has played against in his career will have been much higher than that which Best and Pele played against, given modern coaching and professionalism. Though I do agree that Ronaldo proving himself in the premier league is noteworthy.

The debate is messi or Ronaldo; probably impossible to conclusively pick one.

 

[reanswolf]

Been discussed to death -.

But it's an emphatic yes from me, but totally understand its personal opinion and that it varies. The fawning is exactly the same with Ronaldo, far worse infact since he came back to Man Utd. In terms of goals, the same applies to Ronaldo, he has always played for a top team. In terms of stats, they are close but Messi edges it on these, and dwarfs Ronaldo on assists.

I personally think Messi and Ronaldo are the best 2 players ever, but then Pele, Ronaldinho, Maradona, Palhinha - might be genuine contenders too. But just not quite as good as these 2 IMO.

Numerous polls have been done, and you can link ones to suit your view. When Ronaldo came back to Man Utd, UK polls swung back to him slightly, perhaps revealing the level of Man Utd sympathisers amongst the UK population.

Ultimately for me, Ronaldo is a machine, German efficiency level and if you appreciate that quality you go with him, if you appreciate artistry and grace you appreciate Messi. No one can tell any individual which of the two is the greatest asset.

But for me, Ronaldo makes you say "wow", Messi makes you say "how". Messi makes me swoon in admiration with his magical moments, personally I have never seen another player who so regularly and routinely makes me feel that way.

 

[Big Saft Kid]

Pele in a class of his own for me. He had every skill to virtual perfection. And humility on top. No contest.

 

[Supadavewolf]

The debate is messi or Ronald; probably impossible to conclusively pick one.

I guess you mean Ronald Flowers

One of our greatest players, and far better at defensive/midfield duties than Messi will ever be


(Seriously, for me Messi is only the second best left-footed forward his country has produced)

 

[Big Saft Kid]

I found the Argentina game almost unwatchable last night due to the ridiculous fawning over Messi by the BBC. As someone rightly said, it was a wonder he could play at all with Murphy so far up his ****.
Is he the greatest of all time? For me it's an emphatic 'no.' I think his numbers are skewed by season after season of games against Huesca, Levante, and others in La Liga.
I'd have Ronaldo above Messi, simply because he's done it in England, Spain and Italy - and while I'm too young to give an accurate view on Pele, I'd say both Best and Cruyff in my lifetime were above Messi. Given the mudbaths Best frequently played on, God only knows how many goals he'd have scored on today's perfect pitches.
Anyway, over to you...

Tend to agree on Cruyff and Best

 

[Big Saft Kid]

One of my abiding memories is going to Wembley and watching Cruyff single handedly dismantle England in the late 70s. Simply couldn't get near him. Saw Best many times, and not only in Wolves games. He was the only player I would go and pay to watch in ANY game, against any opposition, and often did when I lived near London and United were in town.

 

[Kebab Warrior]

Maradona for me

 

[JadeWolf]

Greatest of the modern era? Possibly, it’s either him or Ronaldo. Greatest of all time? I don’t think you can really say. How many goals would Messi score in the 50s and 60s? How many would Pele score now?

 

[Supadavewolf]

Should we not qualify GOAT as "greatest forward/striker of all time"? Otherwise the truly great players in their positions -

for example, keepers Lev Yashin and Gordon Banks; FBs Roberto Carlos and Paulo Maldini; central defenders Bobby Moore, Franco Baresi and Gaetamo Scirea -

never get a look-in.

 

[Frank Lincoln]

It's a no from me.

Pele, Eusabio, Di Stefano, Best and Cruyff are the best I have seen.

I'm not even sure he is the best of his generation, Ronaldo might have something to say about that!

 

[Guzeppi]

I honestly don't know.

I haven't been, and probably won't be, witness to "all time".

 

[WasStefan]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1599064589182078978

No

 

[waveney wolf]

No way
Who's he played for ? A dominant Barcelona and a psg in a 1 horse race league.
I'd have scored a few goals in those teams.....and he can only kick with one foot .
Pele , Mathews, Cruyff better

 

[Glow69]

Maradona.

He did it against some of the best defenders to grace the game at a time they could kill you on, on pitches that were ****e along with his drive to win. He'd have ripped this tournament apart lol.

Still don't get how anyone could pick CR7 over R9 at both of their peaks.

Maradona, R9, Zidane for me. Obvs pele on footage and Best was mesmerising.

 

[Mr Sizzle]

Been discussed to death -.

But it's an emphatic yes from me, but totally understand its personal opinion and that it varies. The fawning is exactly the same with Ronaldo, far worse infact since he came back to Man Utd. In terms of goals, the same applies to Ronaldo, he has always played for a top team. In terms of stats, they are close but Messi edges it on these, and dwarfs Ronaldo on assists.

I personally think Messi and Ronaldo are the best 2 players ever, but then Pele, Ronaldinho, Maradona, Palhinha - might be genuine contenders too. But just not quite as good as these 2 IMO.

Numerous polls have been done, and you can link ones to suit your view. When Ronaldo came back to Man Utd, UK polls swung back to him slightly, perhaps revealing the level of Man Utd sympathisers amongst the UK population.

Ultimately for me, Ronaldo is a machine, German efficiency level and if you appreciate that quality you go with him, if you appreciate artistry and grace you appreciate Messi. No one can tell any individual which of the two is the greatest asset.

But for me, Ronaldo makes you say "wow", Messi makes you say "how". Messi makes me swoon in admiration with his magical moments, personally I have never seen another player who so regularly and routinely makes me feel that way.

Perfectly summed up for me..

 

[Matt]

Can’t comment on the older players as I never saw them play, for me Messi is the best I’ve ever seen. In terms of who is a better footballer, I don’t think it’s even close to be honest. He’s on another planet. A real shame we won’t be able to watch him play for much longer.

 

[SuperGran]

There’s a mute button on the remote control. Just thought I’d let people know

Messi is the best player in this World Cup watch him appreciate him and let others appreciate him it will be his last World Cup

Maradonna is the best player of all time.

 

[Wonder Boyo]

Maradona.

Apart from his amazing international exploits, he also single handedly dragged Napoli to the Seria A title. There's no other played who has played in the history of football who could have done that. Look at some of the highlights from that title charge. I'm now logging off this thread never to view it again, because the idea that any other player comes close is ridiculous!

 

[wolvesaywe]

Arguments against... played all of his career for the best team in his league, on billiard table pitches, with modern sports science, balls and boots, in a time when vicious tackling has been taken out of the game

Imagine Maradona, Cruyff, Best, Pele, Matthews, Puskas etc etc with these advantages. The mind boggles

One of the best for sure but only one of many contenders over many generations. My grandad would tell you it was Di Stefano. First player he ever saw curl a ball

And as a side note yesterday was the first time Messi scored a goal in the knockout stages of the world cup. Not exactly GOAT standards

 

[Jonzy54]

It will always be subjective but for me it is
George Best

 

[JamesWolves]

Colin Cameron was better than everyone mentioned in this thread

 

[Big Saft Kid]

Arguments against... played all of his career for the best team in his league, on billiard table pitches, with modern sports science, balls and boots, in a time when vicious tackling has been taken out of the game

Imagine Maradona, Cruyff, Best, Pele, Matthews, Puskas etc etc with these advantages. The mind boggles

One of the best for sure but only one of many contenders over many generations. My grandad would tell you it was Di Stefano. First player he ever saw curl a ball

And as a side note yesterday was the first time Messi scored a goal in the knockout stages of the world cup. Not exactly GOAT standards

Tend to agree. My Dad thought di Stefano was the best. That 7-3 Real win at Hampden in the European Cup Final in1960 was his crowning glory.

 

[Southdownswolf]

Messi is the best of his generation.
Impossible to say who is the best of all time as the game is completely different over time.

 

[Loefah]

Maradona had a career high of 16 goals in a season in European football. He's more a cult hero GOAT due to his personality and influence, not to diminish his ability, but he's not in the same ball park as Messi in terms of numbers and consistency. Messi scored 91 goals in a calendar year in 2012.

 

[WKFWolf]

I always rationalise like this

Messi the most gifted technically
Ronaldo the hardest grafter ever, he was always a good player but his attitude and work ethic have taken him to that level

 

[Swinford Wolf]

Personal opinion Messi is right up there . George Best gets my vote . Maradona will always be a cheat IMO

 

[Glow69]

Oh to have to the protection of today lol.

 

[Mugwump]

Maradona had a career high of 16 goals in a season in European football. He's more a cult hero GOAT due to his personality and influence, not to diminish his ability, but he's not in the same ball park as Messi in terms of numbers and consistency. Messi scored 91 goals in a calendar year in 2012.

Stats just dont tell the whole story and people who get carried away with those sorts of things are just not seeing the bigger picture. Its pretty ridiculous comparing the champions league to European competition then it was the European cup. Totally different setup so you arent comparing apples with apples.

As much as i dont like the bloke, Maradona turned 2 teams that werent contenders at the time in Argentina and Napoli and turned them into champions. As good as Messi and Ronaldo have been, they havent really had to play in sides that arent already the best. They havent ever really had to prove they can turn decent sides into champion sides. It would be like sticking Messi or Ronaldo in a side like Valencia or Athletico Bilbao and then they drag them to winning the title. I dont think it happens like it did with Maradona.

 

[Mugwump]

Personal opinion Messi is right up there . George Best gets my vote . Maradona will always be a cheat IMO

Thats what will always go against Maradona.

Oh to have to the protection of today lol.

Imagine if the likes of Pele, Maradona and Best had the freedom to play like Messi and Ronaldo did with the kind of protection players get today. Some of those tackles in that clip are shocking.

 

[Wall heath Wanderer]

Oh to have to the protection of today lol.

The way he gets up from most of those puts the supposed greatest of all times from today's game to shame.

 

[Mugwump]

The way he gets up from most of those puts the supposed greatest of all times from today's game to shame.

I still remember that tackle that broke his leg. It was a shocker.

 

[Loefah]

Stats just dont tell the whole story and people who get carried away with those sorts of things are just not seeing the bigger picture. Its pretty ridiculous comparing the champions league to European competition then it was the European cup. Totally different setup so you arent comparing apples with apples.

As much as i dont like the bloke, Maradona turned 2 teams that werent contenders at the time in Argentina and Napoli and turned them into champions. As good as Messi and Ronaldo have been, they havent really had to play in sides that arent already the best. They havent ever really had to prove they can turn decent sides into champion sides. It would be like sticking Messi or Ronaldo in a side like Valencia or Athletico Bilbao and then they drag them to winning the title. I dont think it happens like it did with Maradona.

I only see this argument for Maradona though. It's great what he did with Napoli and Argentina but he's not the only player to drag a team to a title. Cruyff also transformed the teams he played for, arguably for longer periods at Ajax and Barcelona, and he had a bigger legacy in terms of his philosophy and style of play shaping the clubs for decades.

 

[Premier Quality]

Pele, maradona, best then Messi - the first three weren’t just brilliant technically, fantastic characters and massive innovators for what was possible on mud baths and with ****e training - they were the toughest of tough men.

Messi is brilliant but he wouldn’t have lasted more than a couple of seasons in their time. Massive refereeing protection and pitches like carpets have given him the platform he has, and he’s made the most of it - but if Pelé, maradona and best had those, they’d have been even better.

 

[Mugwump]

I only see this argument for Maradona though. It's great what he did with Napoli and Argentina but he's not the only player to drag a team to a title. Cruyff also transformed the teams he played for, arguably for longer periods at Ajax and Barcelona, and he had a bigger legacy in terms of his philosophy and style of play shaping the clubs for decades.

Name another player who has dragged sides like Napoli were at the time and even Argentina and turned them into champions like Maradona did.

As much as Cruyff did transform the way teams played, he still had the luxury of doing it at powerhouse clubs in their respective countries who were expected to challenge for the title. Napoli havent really been in the same bracket in their history, as is shown by their only 2 titles came when Maradona was a player there.

Messi has arguably had better Argentina sides around him than Maradona has, certainly no worse yet he still hasnt managed to inspire them to a world cup win. Ronaldo is in the same bracket. He's played in some great Portugal sides but no World cup.

 

[Ponty]

Messi and Ronaldo have longevity on their side. Maradonna was at his peak for a lot shorter time but in that time he was better than both of them.

 

[Jack Russell]

I wonder how many on here actually saw George Best play? Maradona wasn't fit to lace his boots!

George may have been problematical at times but he was no cheat. I saw Best, Law and Charlton playing together on many occasions, including twice at Old Trafford. Now that really was something to behold.

I met George Best and Rodney Marsh at the Lakeside Cub at Frimley and have their autographs in the book they were promoting.

 

[Loefah]

Name another player who has dragged sides like Napoli were at the time and even Argentina and turned them into champions like Maradona did.

As much as Cruyff did transform the way teams played, he still had the luxury of doing it at powerhouse clubs in their respective countries who were expected to challenge for the title. Napoli havent really been in the same bracket in their history, as is shown by their only 2 titles came when Maradona was a player there.

Messi has arguably had better Argentina sides around him than Maradona has, certainly no worse yet he still hasnt managed to inspire them to a world cup win. Ronaldo is in the same bracket. He's played in some great Portugal sides but no World cup.

Barcelona were an unfashionable side in an impoverished region in the early 1970s and hadn’t won the title for years. The Barcelona of today is different because of Cruyff who transformed the club as a player and then manager.

Either way, the GOAT argument is never going to be objective as people value different things. Maradona’s achievements with Napoli are certainly impressive. But if Messi had grown up in 70s Buenos Aeris, I’m sure he would have been a tough little **** and adapted his game accordingly.

 

[Glow69]

I wonder how many on here actually saw George Best play? Maradona wasn't fit to lace his boots!

George may have been problematical at times but he was no cheat. I saw Best, Law and Charlton playing together on many occasions, including twice at Old Trafford. Now that really was something to behold.

I met George Best and Rodney Marsh at the Lakeside Cub at Frimley and have their autographs in the book they were promoting.

He had ridiculous balance.