Is Messi the GOAT?

[Mugwump]

Barcelona were an unfashionable side in an impoverished region in the early 1970s and hadn’t won the title for years. The Barcelona of today is different because of Cruyff who transformed the club as a player and then manager.

Either way, the GOAT argument is never going to be objective as people value different things. Maradona’s achievements with Napoli are certainly impressive. But if Messi had grown up in 70s Buenos Aeris, I’m sure he would have been a tough little **** and adapted his game accordingly.

No matter how you dress it up though, the expectation at a club like Barcelona has always been there. Its not like they weren't always challenging even when they weren't winning the title. I dont see them as remotely comparable to where Napoli were. Even when Cryuff was at Barca as a player ( not going to get into the management side as its pretty irrelevant to this ) he only won 1 league title in 5 seasons. They won the title a couple of years before he joined as well.

You are right though, it is subjective. I've always had this argument about players like Messi, Ronaldo, Maradona etc being the GOAT. You cant tell me people like Maldini or Schmiechel for example werent equally as good in their positions are the ones i mentioned were in theirs. Because they arent glamour, forward players i dont think they ever get the same kind of credit.

 

[Wall heath Wanderer]

I still remember that tackle that broke his leg. It was a shocker.

Just googled and watched it, one of those that you can't help but wince at. Ouch.

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

I actually don't think it's close.

The points about the pitches and defenders kicking the likes of Pele and Maradona are fair enough but surely they're more than equalled out by the fact the game is much faster/better nowadays and defenders are athletes.

It's a different sport today so it is hard to make comparisons from those in a different era.

However, nobody can compete with Messi in terms of longevity and that's massive in this debate.

I also think the goalposts get moved a lot with Messi.

For example, it gets used against him that he stayed at Barcelona - the need to do it in different leagues.
Pele didn't move from Santos.
Maradona didn't win the European Cup ever and won two league titles in 10 years in Europe, admittedly they hold a lot of weight as it was a great story with Napoli but it's still not a good record.
Ronaldo won two titles in nine years at Real Madrid and he gets praised for 'doing it' in Spain. Surely that must be one of the worst decades in Real Madrid's history haha? Of course, it doesn't really matter or impact his legacy as as they won four Champions Leagues, but the point is he didn't exactly help Real Madrid domestically because of Messi and Barcelona primarily.

You also get the narrative that Ronaldo somehow had to work harder to get to the top. I can't imagine it's easy being just slightly taller than Daniel Podence and being the best player in the world for 15 years!

Messi's personality also doesn't help. He's not a flawed genius like Best, Maradona etc. He's quiet, unassuming and hard to relate to for many.

Maradona was crazy and that made him so appealing. It also helps that you only ever see the good bits of those players as we couldn't watch them every week and analyse them as happens today.

I suppose you could make a case to say Maradona and Pele at their best were on par with Messi but if you have to look at the overall package in terms of career then in my opinion it's not a debate.

 

[sedgwolf1980]

Maradona would have dragged Argentina to the World Cup at least once by now. He also had an impact on Naples that transcended football way more so than even Messi did at Barca.

Ronaldo is a machine who has extracted every last drop of potential and talent out of his body in a way that has never been seen before.

Cruyff I don’t get. Best played nowhere near long enough.

Pele is the only one that comes close to Maradona for me. Plus he loves viagra.

For me, Maradona and Pele. Then the rest.

Edit:… it’s all subjective though isn’t it, that’s the beauty of football.

 

[steve vena]

Maradona, George Best.

 

[ewarwoowar]

it all subjective,all i know is that i have never seen anyone so consistently perform at the highest level and with the most pressure exerted on their shoulders as Messi.also i have never witnessed anyone be able to do things with a football that he can ,Ask yourselves this,name the best goal scorer,the best dribbler,the best passer,the best free kick taker and the chances are you will have 4 different players but also likely is Messi will be in all of those lists.As for the old chestnut of not winning the world cup gary lineker(yes i know)has a brilliant response to this which is per mertsacker has won the world cup so what is your point?

 

[Loefah]

No matter how you dress it up though, the expectation at a club like Barcelona has always been there. Its not like they weren't always challenging even when they weren't winning the title. I dont see them as remotely comparable to where Napoli were. Even when Cryuff was at Barca as a player ( not going to get into the management side as its pretty irrelevant to this ) he only won 1 league title in 5 seasons. They won the title a couple of years before he joined as well.

You are right though, it is subjective. I've always had this argument about players like Messi, Ronaldo, Maradona etc being the GOAT. You cant tell me people like Maldini or Schmiechel for example werent equally as good in their positions are the ones i mentioned were in theirs. Because they arent glamour, forward players i dont think they ever get the same kind of credit.

Yeah, the Napoli story is great no doubt, and winning the World Cup, but I just don't think it puts him above others solely for that. Nobody is thinking Kante is one of the all time greats for being a major part of Leicester's Premier League title and France's World Cup win.

 

[wolvesaywe]

It's forever a flawed debate with huge recency bias

 

[Soho Wolf]

No, this a Goat:

File:Hausziege 04.jpg - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Jefe]

Pele in a class of his own for me. He had every skill to virtual perfection. And humility on top. No contest.

And also isn't a tax dodger.

 

[Ironfistedmonk]

Pele will always be the GOAT

 

[Jack Russell]

He had ridiculous balance.

And incredible bird pulling expertise!

 

[Shergar]

Messi had a good game against ‘mighty’ Australia yesterday but what followed afterwards with the BBC jizzfest was nauseating. I think it happened because subconsciously they are all disappointed with the recent focus on Ronaldo revelations and behaviour and it culminated in this gushing for ’the other side’ out of relief.
Ronaldo has amplified his disliked arrogant and self centred traits whereas yesterday Messi just played football.

 

[SingleMalt]

It's forever a flawed debate with huge recency bias

Yes. I’m just happy I’ve been able to watch Messi, Ronaldo, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Van Basten, Maradona and all the other geniuses of the past few decades. I shall be forever sad that I never saw Best, Pele, Garrincha, Di Stefano and all the others that came before.

 

[floydstreet]

The impossible argument to settle
How do you compare players from different eras or differing positions ?
For example maradona played on crap pitches and at a time when players could kick lumps out of him
Messi is brilliant no question, but flair players are so protected now which makes the numbers and comparisons impossible in my opinion

He’s certainly one of the greatest alongside maradona, ronaldo, Brazilian ronaldo, etc

 

[Beijing Wolf]

George Best for me even though I wasn’t born until 88 so never saw him play live.

Plus he was a Wolves fan!

Messi is the best player of my lifetime (so far) for sure, but I wonder how he would perform when defenders were allowed to tackle you in ways that would result in a red card today.

 

[Plastic Shrapnel]

I hate the 'Greatest' arguments, and I loathe how it's pushed that it's the main four now. Pele, Maradona, Messi and C Ronaldo.

It's completely subjective, are they the four most skillful? Most likely, although Garrincha and Ronaldinho could probably be included in the list on that front.

Are the best goalscorers? Arguably but Puskas, Gerd Muller, Lewa and the like could be included.

Do they have the best vision and passing range? Scholes, Iniesta and Zidane are three examples off the top of my head that are better.

Are they good defensively? Absolutely not.

There is one player that I think could be deemed the GOAT because I think other than keeper you could put him in any position on the pitch and he'd be comfortable in that position, and that player is Johan Cruyff. Messi would get skinned at Left back, Cruyff wouldn't. Add to that his intrinsic understanding of the philosophies of football and how the game works, the affect he's had in tactics and team style, the managers that have been moulded from his teachings.

Without question he's just football.

Messi and the others are/were generational talents (no Fabio jokes) there's no denying that. But Cruyff was a player, manager and person in football that was not just that generational talent but also a revolutionary of the game.

 

[Hot Fuss]

 

[Beijing Wolf]

I hate the 'Greatest' arguments, and I loathe how it's pushed that it's the main four now. Pele, Maradona, Messi and C Ronaldo.

It's completely subjective, are they the four most skillful? Most likely, although Garrincha and Ronaldinho could probably be included in the list on that front.

Are the best goalscorers? Arguably but Puskas, Gerd Muller, Lewa and the like could be included.

Do they have the best vision and passing range? Scholes, Iniesta and Zidane are three examples off the top of my head that are better.

Are they good defensively? Absolutely not.

There is one player that I think could be deemed the GOAT because I think other than keeper you could put him in any position on the pitch and he'd be comfortable in that position, and that player is Johan Cruyff. Messi would get skinned at Left back, Cruyff wouldn't. Add to that his intrinsic understanding of the philosophies of football and how the game works, the affect he's had in tactics and team style, the managers that have been moulded from his teachings.

Without question he's just football.

Messi and the others are/were generational talents (no Fabio jokes) there's no denying that. But Cruyff was a player, manager and person in football that was not just that generational talent but also a revolutionary of the game.

If we are picking the most exciting player to watch I would certainly say Ronaldinho. He is my personal favourite player in football history, outside of Wolves of course.

He would do an insane piece of skill every match, playing like someone would do against their mates at the park, just showboating with a huge smile on his face. Superb.

It’s mad to me that at one point PSG had Jay Jay Okocha and Ronaldinho in the same team! Would have loved to have seen those 2 together live.

 

[Glow69]

It’s mad to me that at one point PSG had Jay Jay Okocha and Ronaldinho in the same team! Would have loved to have seen those 2 together live.

Would be nearly as good as the Kightly/Jarvis days.

 

[Brockmoorwolf]

From what ive seen this world cup , he must be the most tackled player at the tournament, loses the ball way to often.

 

[wolvesaywe]

Yes. I’m just happy I’ve been able to watch Messi, Ronaldo, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Van Basten, Maradona and all the other geniuses of the past few decades. I shall be forever sad that I never saw Best, Pele, Garrincha, Di Stefano and all the others that came before.

I'm forever sad that I never got to watch our great team of the 50s from a packed south bank

Oh to see a Wilshaw goal, Broadbent dribble, a Wright tackle and a Williams save with my own eyes

Some of the older guys on here know just how lucky they were

 

[Sussex Wolf]

No, because GOAT is an impossible thing to assess as others have pointed out. We are only asking the question because some BBC pundits fawned over him to the degree that it was embarrassing.

 

[Jonzy54]

No, because GOAT is an impossible thing to assess as others have pointed out. We are only asking the question because some BBC pundits fawned over him to the degree that it was embarrassing.

Just like Art ,fine wine and good food it is always subjective. That said ,I will never change my opinion.In an era of muddy pitches ,cloggers and thugs -
GEORGE BEST

 

[Fenrir_]

Messi is the most skilful player I've ever seen, and quite possibly the best ever technically. For me though, he's almost a bit of a flat track bully and often goes missing in big games when things aren't going the way of his team. He's the captain of Argentina but he's no leader, and to me that kind of thing counts. I was a kid in the 80s so didn't see huge amounts of Maradona but Messi's late countryman would be screaming for the ball and dragging every last drop out of himself and his side, you don't see Messi do that

I think Ronaldo (Brazilian) would have surpassed the lot without his injuries, you watch some of the stuff he was doing as a teenager and he was frightening. He'd easily get fifty a season in today's game

 

[CelebrityWolf]

Absolutely no doubt unless you happened to see one of Maradonas 20 or so televised games way back when.

Messi has only scored nearly 500 more goals than Maradona, has more assists and played at the top for nearly 15 years.

 

[CelebrityWolf]

Messi is the most skilful player I've ever seen, and quite possibly the best ever technically. For me though, he's almost a bit of a flat track bully and often goes missing in big games when things aren't going the way of his team. He's the captain of Argentina but he's no leader, and to me that kind of thing counts. I was a kid in the 80s so didn't see huge amounts of Maradona but Messi's late countryman would be screaming for the ball and dragging every last drop out of himself and his side, you don't see Messi do that

I think Ronaldo (Brazilian) would have surpassed the lot without his injuries, you watch some of the stuff he was doing as a teenager and he was frightening. He'd easily get fifty a season in today's game

Yeah a fit R9 for an extra five years would have been something.

 

[CelebrityWolf]

We are never going to see anyone come close to what we have seen from Messi and Ronaldo the last 15 years. Truly outrageous.

Suarez is a phenomenal player himself, so prolific, but when you realise he is close to 300 goals behind those two it is staggering. Just think of Bullys 306 goals, impressive right, but yet Suarez is that many goals behind those two, it blows the mind.

 

[Supadavewolf]

For me, Maradona and Pele. Then the rest.

Edit:… it’s all subjective though isn’t it, that’s the beauty of football.

Spot on IMV

 

[Wellington Wolf]

When I saw him play live (tourist tickets at Barca,) he was a different level to anything I've seen on a football pitch. (Most of the other players I have seen played in the championship admittedly!)

 

[Fifty Niner]

I actually don't think it's close.

The points about the pitches and defenders kicking the likes of Pele and Maradona are fair enough but surely they're more than equalled out by the fact the game is much faster/better nowadays and defenders are athletes.

It's a different sport today so it is hard to make comparisons from those in a different era.

However, nobody can compete with Messi in terms of longevity and that's massive in this debate.

I also think the goalposts get moved a lot with Messi.

For example, it gets used against him that he stayed at Barcelona - the need to do it in different leagues.
Pele didn't move from Santos.
Maradona didn't win the European Cup ever and won two league titles in 10 years in Europe, admittedly they hold a lot of weight as it was a great story with Napoli but it's still not a good record.
Ronaldo won two titles in nine years at Real Madrid and he gets praised for 'doing it' in Spain. Surely that must be one of the worst decades in Real Madrid's history haha? Of course, it doesn't really matter or impact his legacy as as they won four Champions Leagues, but the point is he didn't exactly help Real Madrid domestically because of Messi and Barcelona primarily.

You also get the narrative that Ronaldo somehow had to work harder to get to the top. I can't imagine it's easy being just slightly taller than Daniel Podence and being the best player in the world for 15 years!

Messi's personality also doesn't help. He's not a flawed genius like Best, Maradona etc. He's quiet, unassuming and hard to relate to for many.

Maradona was crazy and that made him so appealing. It also helps that you only ever see the good bits of those players as we couldn't watch them every week and analyse them as happens today.

I suppose you could make a case to say Maradona and Pele at their best were on par with Messi but if you have to look at the overall package in terms of career then in my opinion it's not a debate.

Very well put. Messi, Pele and Maradona are neck and neck but I too edge toward Messi to pip them at the post.

 

[Jay Jay de Wolf]

George Best & Messi for me both players excited the crowds and glided past 2 , 3 or more defenders with ease and both scored loads of great goals

 

[WiseWolf]

But for me, Ronaldo makes you say "wow", Messi makes you say "how".

This to me sums up the Ronaldo vs Messi debate perfectly

 

[Jefe]

Lionel Messi worship after miskick for Argentina puts pressure on the 'BBC jizz launderette'

The Mailbox is baffled by the Lionel Messi adulation, as Louis van Gaal is praised and Southgate just needs to avoid the brain farts.

www.football365.com

“Uuuuuuh phooooaaaaar….eeeerrrr….slurp….mmmmmm….oh God…mmmmmmm….uuuuuuhhhh oh yes oh yes oh yes…”

What has happened? Is it:
A) you have just received an Olympic grade blow job from Beyonce.
B) Lionel Messi, unmarked on the penalty spot has tripped over his own feet and miskicked his shot which has rolled out slowly for a goal kick just before it went for a corner.

If you answered “B”. Commiserations. You are Danny Murphy.

 

[Monketron]

Maradonna > Messi > Pele > Ronaldo for me in terms of pure skill but you'd have to say Messi is the GOAT given the way he's managed to stay at his peak for so long.

Honourable mentions to Best, Cruyff and Fat Ronaldo.

 

[Stourport wolf]

View attachment 31725

That is the humility of Messi for you.

 

[Kebab Warrior]

There’s a mute button on the remote control. Just thought I’d let people know

Messi is the best player in this World Cup watch him appreciate him and let others appreciate him it will be his last World Cup

Maradonna is the best player of all time.

Mbappe is the best player at this World Cup

 

[Hot Fuss]

That is the humility of Messi for you.

Fair play to him. Good guy and an unbelievable player.

He’s right though.

 

[Kebab Warrior]

I hate the 'Greatest' arguments, and I loathe how it's pushed that it's the main four now. Pele, Maradona, Messi and C Ronaldo.

It's completely subjective, are they the four most skillful? Most likely, although Garrincha and Ronaldinho could probably be included in the list on that front.

Are the best goalscorers? Arguably but Puskas, Gerd Muller, Lewa and the like could be included.

Do they have the best vision and passing range? Scholes, Iniesta and Zidane are three examples off the top of my head that are better.

Are they good defensively? Absolutely not.

There is one player that I think could be deemed the GOAT because I think other than keeper you could put him in any position on the pitch and he'd be comfortable in that position, and that player is Johan Cruyff. Messi would get skinned at Left back, Cruyff wouldn't. Add to that his intrinsic understanding of the philosophies of football and how the game works, the affect he's had in tactics and team style, the managers that have been moulded from his teachings.

Without question he's just football.

Messi and the others are/were generational talents (no Fabio jokes) there's no denying that. But Cruyff was a player, manager and person in football that was not just that generational talent but also a revolutionary of the game.

In terms of most influential on the development of football it’s Cryuff, I’d also throw in Jimmy Hogan (manager).

 

[Plastic Shrapnel]

I’d also throw in Jimmy Hogan (manager).

A name that should be shouted from the rooftops of English footballing folklore, pretty much invented on the deck possession football. Instrumental in the rise of football, and successful football on the continent.

Alas, no sods heard of him unless you've sort him out.