Everton, surely a points deduction?

[northnorfolkwolf]

Can I just randomly chip in as an aside how daft I find it when people describe the fan bases of other clubs as various things. They are just a mixed bunch of human beings just like us. If you believed this forum at times every other club is supported by arrogant, entitled, cheating morons and we're all a bunch of saints. I'm sure all forums have this, it's just a bit ridiculous (at best).

You can feel sorry for them, or the fans of previously relegated clubs who stuck to the rules, but no fan is responsible for a cheating or incompetent owner.

Well said. I hate it on here when we bash other fans for simply supporting another club, most likely their home-town club. They go through the same **** that we do. When we squeal about VAR don't we think that other clubs' fans are doing the exact same thing? Was it after the Brentford game that I read their fans thought the ref gave all the decisions our way when we thought the exact opposite and shouted about it on here?

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

When wolves are found guilty for the offences by them and are given the penalty of a 20 point deduction

Aided by the expert eye witness evidence of MGW who saw it all……

Yeah we’re guilty as charged lol if only we sold Guedes instead of a silly loan

 

[oldgold4ever]

He was unaware last time too….. allegedly lol

If that is true, he cannot have any relationship with the higher ups or anyone with any influence at Everton. as surely you hear rumblings?

It is indeed laughable. If Dyche is really unaware, he should walk away from a dishonest board that kept it hidden. However, he's fooling no one and is making himself look like an idiot.

 

[wolfslair]

Well said. I hate it on here when we bash other fans for simply supporting another club, most likely their home-town club. They go through the same **** that we do. When we squeal about VAR don't we think that other clubs' fans are doing the exact same thing? Was it after the Brentford game that I read their fans thought the ref gave all the decisions our way when we thought the exact opposite and shouted about it on here?

moaning about our VAR injustices is justified! We have been ****ed over royally and have the apologies to prove it.

Everton fans screaming corruption and playing the victim of a premier league vendetta is pathetic!

They as a club had complete control over whether they complied or not, they chose not to. They could even have stopped their poor FFP practices and saved themselves like Jeff managed to do, to his credit.

We have had no choice or way to resolve the issue of the VAR errors….

They cheated the league and other teams, stayed up by cheating, yet somehow they are the victims….. we are genuinely and consistently victims of the poor implementation of the laws of football and it is out of our control.

Massive difference in the two situations.

 

[DanishWolf]

Can I just randomly chip in as an aside how daft I find it when people describe the fan bases of other clubs as various things. They are just a mixed bunch of human beings just like us. If you believed this forum at times every other club is supported by arrogant, entitled, cheating morons and we're all a bunch of saints. I'm sure all forums have this, it's just a bit ridiculous (at best).

You can feel sorry for them, or the fans of previously relegated clubs who stuck to the rules, but no fan is responsible for a cheating or incompetent owner.

True, and by the way it doesnt take much reading on the Everton fan forums to see that there is a much more nuanced view on this topic than generally portrayed. Lots point fingers at everything from the PL to other clubs, but quite a lot also point the finger at the owners.

Having said that I still hope Everton go down..

 

[Bankswolf The Third]

Well said. I hate it on here when we bash other fans for simply supporting another club, most likely their home-town club. They go through the same **** that we do. When we squeal about VAR don't we think that other clubs' fans are doing the exact same thing? Was it after the Brentford game that I read their fans thought the ref gave all the decisions our way when we thought the exact opposite and shouted about it on here?

I agree aside from Forest fans were unbeliavbly annoying when they signed MGW and their arrogance has kinda brought it on themselves

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Well its not quite 100m because of the monies are not directly all included in the loss, obviously agent fees etc,

but yes likely up to 90 to 100m

I don't get the maths. Let me try to explain how I see it and I do get that not all the loses are attributable to FFP, but let's face it we're hardly breaking the budget on ground improvements!

I thought we were going to be close in 22/23, hence why we didn't pay for Cunha etc. So that might have meant a £70m loss. If we had to sell Neves (almost all profit - say £43m) and we're still close, then that means we were heading towards a loss of £100m last season. So maybe £90m yes.

However I think most of us are imagining a good profit this season. I mean if 22/23 was close to the limit then we have to turn a profit. But the way I try to do it is to work out how much better off we are. So yes, we've saved maybe £25m in wages and yes we've saved the amortisation on Nunes and Collins (say £25m and got the fees in), obviously we've also added Cunha, Lemina and wages from Sarabia in particular. We had already got Silva's wages off the books. But if we need to improve things by £110m or so then even that is looking a struggle. No wonder there isn't much left for January!

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

 

[Northampton_wolf]

I don't get the maths. Let me try to explain how I see it and I do get that not all the loses are attributable to FFP, but let's face it we're hardly breaking the budget on ground improvements!

I thought we were going to be close in 22/23, hence why we didn't pay for Cunha etc. So that might have meant a £70m loss. If we had to sell Neves (almost all profit - say £43m) and we're still close, then that means we were heading towards a loss of £100m last season. So maybe £90m yes.

However I think most of us are imagining a good profit this season. I mean if 22/23 was close to the limit then we have to turn a profit. But the way I try to do it is to work out how much better off we are. So yes, we've saved maybe £25m in wages and yes we've saved the amortisation on Nunes and Collins (say £25m and got the fees in), obviously we've also added Cunha, Lemina and wages from Sarabia in particular. We had already got Silva's wages off the books. But if we need to improve things by £110m or so then even that is looking a struggle. No wonder there isn't much left for January!

Ill try to outlay my logic as best as i can.

22-23 potentially -70m

2020-21 was 18.4 positive

21-22 -46.4m

So you can see how close we are to 105m down

this year 23-34 we are still in, this will include cunhas purchase etc, but we have sold nunes collins mouts wages etc and we can amortise cunha bellegarde etc

But we do have JLs severance etc

We need to turn about a profit likely of 10 to 15m. Which they are now confident indonig so because of sales, as long as we dont spunk purchases.


Which is why wont wont do doyles option right now.

For then Summary 24

we are in 24-25 so then have the -70 and the hopefully plus 15 to 20m which then gives us room for another loss year

 

[Dubwolf71]

It is indeed laughable. If Dyche is really unaware, he should walk away from a dishonest board that kept it hidden. However, he's fooling no one and is making himself look like an idiot.

He did that yesterday during the Villa game. Camera pointing directly at him. He turned his head to the side and put his hand in front of his mouth as he spoke. Find it annoying at the best of times. But anyone watching could clearly read his lips if they wanted.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Ill try to outlay my logic as best as i can.

22-23 potentially -70m

2020-21 was 18.4 positive

21-22 -46.4m

So you can see how close we are to 105m down

this year 23-34 we are still in, this will include cunhas purchase etc, but we have sold nunes collins mouts wages etc and we can amortise cunha bellegarde etc

But we do have JLs severance etc

We need to turn about a profit likely of 10 to 15m. Which they are now confident indonig so because of sales, as long as we dont spunk purchases.


Which is why wont wont do doyles option right now.

For then Summary 24

we are in 24-25 so then have the -70 and the hopefully plus 15 to 20m which then gives us room for another loss year

Thanks, that is pretty much as I see it.

What's killed me a bit is that I didn't think we needed to sell Neves to balance the 22/23 FFP (I don't remember anyone suggesting that at the time). I therefore didn't think we needed to sell Nunes to balance 23/24 (I mean maybe it's just strategy but we didn't behave as if we wanted to sell him), I thought that money would be available to strengthen.

So the long and short of it is that things are worse than I thought!

 

[topcat99]

He did that yesterday during the Villa game. Camera pointing directly at him. He turned his head to the side and put his hand in front of his mouth as he spoke. Find it annoying at the best of times. But anyone watching could clearly read his lips if they wanted.

That habit started in the NFL when teams had lip readers looking at opposing coaches making play calls.

Pointless in football, especially Everton where it’s obvious he’s saying “Hoof it to DCL”

 

[Dingle Chris]

VAR still making their decision. Expect an answer next week

Gillet and on VAR “it looks like Wolves are close but haven’t breached it but the intent was there so give them -10 points!”

 

[Northampton_wolf]

Thanks, that is pretty much as I see it.

What's killed me a bit is that I didn't think we needed to sell Neves to balance the 22/23 FFP (I don't remember anyone suggesting that at the time). I therefore didn't think we needed to sell Nunes to balance 23/24 (I mean maybe it's just strategy but we didn't behave as if we wanted to sell him), I thought that money would be available to strengthen.

So the long and short of it is that things are worse than I thought!

Yes they were bad hence alluded to by percy and then JLS departure. It got really bad started running numbers and we genuinely need to turn a 100m in sales, which we did across two accounting periods.

Ins are amortised so its not net net like some would think

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Yes they were bad hence alluded to by percy and then JLS departure. It got really bad started running numbers and we genuinely need to turn a 100m in sales, which we did across two accounting periods.

Ins are amortised so its not net net like some would think

Yes, thing is I remember Percy saying £50m transfer profit (as you say always a bit of a silly phrase) l. What I don't remember his saying way that we needed to do that twice in one window according to two accounting periods. Thing is Nunes and Collins didn't generate that much of a profit, being sold a for a bit more than we bought them for with one year amortised off their book values.

In my head Nunes just became Cunha pretty much - good business to be fair!

 

[Zico]

Gillet and on VAR “it looks like Wolves are close but haven’t breached it but the intent was there so give them -10 points!”

Nah, Gillett apparently said that ours were the third set of accounts he looked at, which means an automatic penalty.

 

[Ned]

To be fair to the Forest fans (yep) they don't seem to be surprised, they knew this day was likely to come.

Both clubs have gambled on the fines/points deductions being "worth it" in terms of risk vs reward, hopefully at least one of them comes out of this a loser. Sadly I think both will have enough to stay up regardless of the punishment and this would have been just about worth it for them.

 

[WolfLing]

Thanks, that is pretty much as I see it.

What's killed me a bit is that I didn't think we needed to sell Neves to balance the 22/23 FFP (I don't remember anyone suggesting that at the time). I therefore didn't think we needed to sell Nunes to balance 23/24 (I mean maybe it's just strategy but we didn't behave as if we wanted to sell him), I thought that money would be available to strengthen.

So the long and short of it is that things are worse than I thought!

There's other factors to be taken into account here too though.

£40m+ for a player with 1 year left on his deal. Therefore avoiding a forced sale at a reduced price.

Nunes not wanting to be here, so a sale was the only option.

And the changing environment for transfers. If there was ever a time to put yourself in the best possible shape for future windows, it was this season. We've done that, and more.

 

[CelebrityWolf]

Can I just randomly chip in as an aside how daft I find it when people describe the fan bases of other clubs as various things. They are just a mixed bunch of human beings just like us. If you believed this forum at times every other club is supported by arrogant, entitled, cheating morons and we're all a bunch of saints. I'm sure all forums have this, it's just a bit ridiculous (at best).

You can feel sorry for them, or the fans of previously relegated clubs who stuck to the rules, but no fan is responsible for a cheating or incompetent owner.

Yeah this. It is the highest order of cringe worthy.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Yes, thing is I remember Percy saying £50m transfer profit (as you say always a bit of a silly phrase) l. What I don't remember his saying way that we needed to do that twice in one window according to two accounting periods. Thing is Nunes and Collins didn't generate that much of a profit, being sold a for a bit more than we bought them for with one year amortised off their book values.

In my head Nunes just became Cunha pretty much - good business to be fair!

Well I guess it makes sense the club would have modelled it forward, working out what pace of sales it needed both to ensure compliance, and to leave headroom for any necessary or opportunistic incomings. The Nunes sale last summer was a surprise according to the press at the time, but likely was in the plan for June 2024 had he not gone when he did. Seems like Neto is being lined up for a sale summer 2024 now, but perhaps the Nunes sale in this accounting period, means we don’t necessarily need to sell him before the end of June.

More generally, I think we’ve readopted a similar transfer policy to many others in the past. Each year, aim to sell either a major star or a few lesser stars, bringing in 40-50m, and reinvest in a mix of players. It was our approach in the seasons immediately before the pandemic, and has been done by others like Leicester, Southampton, and more recently, Brighton. We’ve switched our targets from mainly Portugal, using Mendes, to reflect the changing transfer market post Brexit.

 

[Wolvessince63]

Why Everton, Nottingham Forest and Wolves may face points deductions this week — inews

A football finance expert explains why these three clubs are most likely to be punished if charges are announced on Monday

apple.news

 

[Wednesbury Wolf]

Everton doing a media briefing now and are going to release details soon after.

 

[CelebrityWolf]

Sincerely hope Forest and indeed Everton find the loop holes they are looking for so that it makes a mockery of this nonsensical FFP.

 

[ade123]

As much as Everton & Forest deserve to be docked points the real villain in my mind is the premier league. The PSR is a flawed system. it seems atbitary, inconsistent, is not transparent & is not dynamic in sanctioning. How was Everton only the first team to have points docked when FFP has been running so long?

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Well I guess it makes sense the club would have modelled it forward, working out what pace of sales it needed both to ensure compliance, and to leave headroom for any necessary or opportunistic incomings. The Nunes sale last summer was a surprise according to the press at the time, but likely was in the plan for June 2024 had he not gone when he did. Seems like Neto is being lined up for a sale summer 2024 now, but perhaps the Nunes sale in this accounting period, means we don’t necessarily need to sell him before the end of June.

More generally, I think we’ve readopted a similar transfer policy to many others in the past. Each year, aim to sell either a major star or a few lesser stars, bringing in 40-50m, and reinvest in a mix of players. It was our approach in the seasons immediately before the pandemic, and has been done by others like Leicester, Southampton, and more recently, Brighton. We’ve switched our targets from mainly Portugal, using Mendes, to reflect the changing transfer market post Brexit.

Still mystified how apparently in December we were persuading a manager to come to us on the basis of signing some top players and maybe dealing a bit, when in fact we were apparently already heading for losses of £100m.

Then having turned that into £70m we need to improve that by £80m to stay safe. I know people imagine that we made that on Nunes and Collins, but I also know that you'll be aware that Nunes still had a book value of about £36m, so maybe £16m profit and Collins maybe £7m profit. So they aren't making that balance up, even before we take off £9m for Cunha.

Anyway are we getting a bloody announcement or not?

 

[zedkiel60]

Someone on forest forum is quoting talksport as saying announcement at 4PM

 

[hollo]

Sincerely hope Forest and indeed Everton find the loop holes they are looking for so that it makes a mockery of this nonsensical FFP.

I hope they throw the book at Everton as they claimed 200 million covid losses.

 

[Eastyorksyeltz]

It does seem that everyone on here now does accept we are, or were, close to having infringed ourselves. Which is at least progress considering the number of posters who were convinced and/or ITK of. the "fact" that we had no FFP problems in the summer and it was just a smokescreen for Fosun preparing to sell the club, or extract cash from it. The narrative now seems to have changed, without any apology, to the new "truth"that, yes we were in trouble, but it was all Jeff's fault. It seems to me more like we are very close, thanks to the firefighting Fosun carried out to save us from relegation and that, had they not also took effective counter measures last summer, there could be fan's of relegated clubs rightly saying we deserve any punishment we get.

 

[Oliwolf44]

To be fair to the Forest fans (yep) they don't seem to be surprised, they knew this day was likely to come.

Both clubs have gambled on the fines/points deductions being "worth it" in terms of risk vs reward, hopefully at least one of them comes out of this a loser. Sadly I think both will have enough to stay up regardless of the punishment and this would have been just about worth it for them.

Reading gambled on promotion from champ and look where it got them. FFP designed to stop this exact thing from happening. (Ownership tests a different argument).
Is this just the fact that the rules and leagues have finally showed some sort of power and fans dont like it.
People cant say look at reading what a bad story someone should do something. Then complain your club cant spend however many millions like Newcastle now that the leagues are doing something.

To play devils advocate, we gambled in the championship and were probably lucky we went up first time of real spending. Neves and Jota in the championship for ~£30million doesnt sound very sustainable or fair to me.

 

[Plovdiv Wolf]

Reading gambled on promotion from champ and look where it got them. FFP designed to stop this exact thing from happening. (Ownership tests a different argument).
Is this just the fact that the rules and leagues have finally showed some sort of power and fans dont like it.
People cant say look at reading what a bad story someone should do something. Then complain your club cant spend however many millions like Newcastle now that the leagues are doing something.

To play devils advocate, we gambled in the championship and were probably lucky we went up first time of real spending. Neves and Jota in the championship for ~£30million doesnt sound very sustainable or fair to me.

We need more Neves, Jota deal. Never come for us. Ended with Guedes, Fabio triple price

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

I hope they throw the book at Everton as they claimed 200 million covid losses.

Water under the bridge

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Someone on forest forum is quoting talksport as saying announcement at 4PM

Yep, they said they expect it around 4

 

[Plovdiv Wolf]

Yep, they said they expect it around 4

Notification? No points docked today

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Notification? No points docked today

Talksport said they expect an announcement around 4pm on the clubs who are being punished. But they were not certain.

 

[Eastyorksyeltz]

But fosun made mistakes with the manager (lage) in letting him stay too long, then a few seasons of bad recruitment which saw the side stagnate and drop down the league.

The emergency transfer dealings last Jan and in the summer were drastic and panicked actions because of massive screw ups Jeff made with the club.

They saved it twice with the reactions, but we needing such drastic and extreme actions because of the failings in his management of the club and infrastructure he put in place.

If we hadn’t gotten the fee we did for neves, we would have had to have sold even more players leaving the playing squad that started the season even weaker.

There is no “new narrative” the issues of wasted money and errors in jeffs management of the club have been spoken about for some time…….

So, what about the narrative that there was no FFP issue at all? Did I just imagine that many people claimed this to be the case?

 

[topcat99]

Water under the bridge

It does show a frame of mind at the top of the club management though.

Every other club put figures in and they were in the same ballpark.
Everton put outrageous figures in and then wonder why they get laughed at.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

So, what about the narrative that there was no FFP issue at all? Did I just imagine that many people claimed this to be the case?

I don’t think many were saying there wasn’t FFP involved, only that this wasn’t the whole story, and the story from the club on it, via their journalist mates, kept changing. It was clear after the heavy spending in January and late summer ‘22, that sales would be needed to remain sustainable.

 

[Stourport wolf]

10 Point Deduction

When are the dates for this latest breach. I can’t understand any of this, the 21/22 season we we’re £6m profit, the 22/23 season we we’re £102m profit, and the 22/23 season we we’re £88m profit. Do you mean profit on player sales? If so I don't think we made that much, but our issue is wages...

www.grandoldteam.com

 

[topcat99]

10 Point Deduction

When are the dates for this latest breach. I can’t understand any of this, the 21/22 season we we’re £6m profit, the 22/23 season we we’re £102m profit, and the 22/23 season we we’re £88m profit. Do you mean profit on player sales? If so I don't think we made that much, but our issue is wages...

www.grandoldteam.com

Wow. Totally missed the point.

However it’s not that clear

 

[Plovdiv Wolf]

Everton and Nottingham Forest have been charged by the Premier League for allegedly breaking financial rules.
Both clubs have been referred to an independent commission for alleged breaches of profit and sustainability rules in their accounts for 2022-23.