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manchesterwolf17

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Ruling out goals for toenail offsides last week, and now back to it's full abhorrent self.

No words for how much I hate it. I would 100% rather the game be riddled with bad decisions than have this ****ing thing hanging over every single moment of joy.

Last year I wrote an article regarding my thoughts on it. If you have the patience, feel free to give it a read and see what you think:





VAR and its impact on Football:



Most avid football supporters will recall their first game as vividly as they will anything else. The walk to the stadium. The turnstiles. The smell of pies and lager. These things become accustom to us as time goes by, but that first match cements itself long in the memory.

Nostalgia is challenging to avoid when the essence of something once so pure and enchanting seemingly disappears into something so inadequate. Human nature is so, that looking back with rose tinted glasses often evades the reality of grey days. But things do change for the worse. Some things are unquestionably tainted in a present that lays inferior to what went before.

Football is an incredibly simple sport with incredibly sporadic but unmatched moments of joy. At least it was once upon a time. Pre 2019 to be exact.

After several years of rumouring and suggesting, the notion of VAR was introduced to the English Premier League during the aforementioned year, under a premise of the eradication of a now infamous 'clear and obvious' officiating error.

A term itself coated in ambiguity, but one initially that seemed to catch the attention and approval of a majority. No longer would 'Hand of God' goals be mistakenly missed by a referee. No longer would a player be able to effectively con the man in the middle by diving in the box and winning his side a penalty. No longer would we as fans walk away from a game feeling that burning sense of injustice. If our team lose, it's because the opposition put the ball in the back of the net a superior number of times, and that is that. End of story.

It all begins to sound so marvellous, does it not?


Perhaps misguided by a 2018 World Cup in which VAR was generally considered a success (aka it didn't screw England over) There was a reasonable sense of optimism toward the technology at the beginning of its inaugural campaign. A curiosity if nothing else.

But then reality hit home. Fans quickly discovered VAR to be the joy destroying poison that it is. You see, to those who fail to appreciate the sport, this is where it becomes somewhat difficult to explain. However, for those immersed in the game, the following paragraph will resonate entirely.

The appeal that football brings to a fan cannot be defined and isolated simply by the contents of the match itself. Football is a way of releasing emotion. Releasing the stress that the majority of us experience through the trivialities that life thrusts upon us. Whatever may be going on elsewhere, during that hour and a half, the mind is focused on 22 players. Half of which we want to perform better than the other.

Think of the most you've ever celebrated your team scoring a goal. Is there a comparable experience of such intense and sudden ecstasy? (Maybe don't answer that)... Jumping around in the away end with a mass of strangers following an injury time winner. How do you begin to explain that sort of feeling to the casual or non-fans of the game?

And this is what VAR is destroying. This is where the real poison of the dagger exists. No longer can these moments be what they once were. When a ball hits the net, a fans immediate emotion is not one of such unrivalled joy. What that has turned into is trepidation. Trepidation and paranoia. Have I missed something in the build up? Was there an offside that they're going to measure to within an inch of a players (insert appropriate body part)? Ultimately, have my team scored a goal and can I enjoy this? Questions that when answered either way, result in the same outcome. A lost moment.

This sort of thing goes beyond tribalism. It's far more important than upmanship. These futile nonsenses of 'you weren't saying that when x profited last week from VAR' is nothing but a distraction, and a costly one at that. Whilst bickering of such pointless nature clogs up comment sections, the real issue with the technology continues to be avoided.

The truth of the matter is, we all suffer because of it. We all feel that confusion and reluctance when our team scores a goal. Wondering if we may 'get away' with it. How is it possible not to feel this way? So long as VAR exists in any capacity, this will always remain. That is something you simply have to accept if your stance is elsewhere. Talk of patience and eventual improvements are near enough redundant. Whilst ultimately, more goals may be given. Offsides may become more lenient. That feeling. That feeling you have now as a fan whenever your team scores a goal. That feeling of once pure adrenaline and joy, will continue to be tainted.

Already we see players reluctant to celebrate these sorts of moments. Perhaps illustrated most tragically, during Scotland's decisive European Championship Qualifier in Serbia, following goalkeeper David Marshall's denial of Alexander Mitrovic's penalty. A shootout save that sent his country to their first major tournament in 23 years. Instead of running away in some sort of Nicky Weaver tribute act mode, Marshall stood, waiting anxiously for the line official standing within the box to confirm with VAR that his save was in fact legitimate. This in a nutshell is exactly the sort of reason why VAR cannot and will not ever work within football.

To the armchair fan, perhaps, yes, the cinematic and often tense drama of it all may be somewhat appealing. To the casual fan, the thought of decisions being categorically correct (despite this never being possible) takes priority over being able to fully commit to a celebration again. But to the true supporter, this is simply not the case.

What we are losing from the game overweighs the positives of VAR astronomically. Robin Van Persie's stunning volley against Aston Villa to seal Sir Alex Ferguson's final title in 2013, would now be ruled out for offside. Lost in the archives. Jamie Vardy's record equalling consecutive strike against Newcastle in 2015 would now be ruled out by VAR. Further examples of such memorable goals could be listed. Does anyone know with certainty whether Tony Adams' shoulder blade would have been deemed ahead of the final defender on the way to his title clinching Highbury goal against Everton? That would ruin the moment somewhat, wouldn't it...

" Adams, played through by Steve Bould. Would you BELIEVE IT!!!... THAT! Sums it all up!...

Oh, and they're just checking for an offside "...

Even the dulcet tones of Martin Tyler would struggle to execute that with vigour.

It's imperative that those in power have some form of understanding at what impact this is doing to the game.

Fans of relegated Premier League sides will express their somewhat relief at the thought of being able to enjoy a goal again in their upcoming season. This is what it has come to. Yet, still, there is a baffling reluctance from some to address the elephant in the room. Talk among pundits will often turn to the duration of decisions, the inability to hear what the referee and VAR official are discussing. Annoyances, undoubtedly. But paling in comparisons to the real issue.

An argument that is regularly thrown in, in support of VAR is the necessity for these decisions to be correct, because of the potential financial impact surrounding them. Well, perhaps this is a bigger issue that needs addressing in itself.

It feels as though what we are doing is delaying the inevitable. Is it a bold prediction to foresee in 2-3 years' time fans collectively muted in celebration within stadiums? How could this not happen? Every single weekend we witness goals ruled out by the tightest of offside margins. Whether that leniency is moved or otherwise, how can we as fans ever really be sure from the stands that we haven't missed something? Ruben Neves' 30-yard strike against Manchester United in August 2019, VAR's first month had the fine-tooth comb treatment for an absurd offside in the build-up. No goal is safe from the threat of this. It's impossible. Once VAR has burnt you once, it stays with you.

VAR in principle was a good idea. No one likes feeling cheated. But this has brought an entirely unprecedented level of frustration and anger that no refereeing mistake without technology could ever replicate. Were we all far too harsh on officials? Yes. Unquestionably. I'm afraid however that this comes with the job description. And what the introduction of VAR has taught us is that incompetence will exist Irregardless.

Sooner or later, if they haven't to some extent already, fans will turn away because of this. When you cannot celebrate your team scoring a goal, quickly, the realisation becomes clear. What is the point? What is the point of spending hard-earned money, for every moment of supposed enjoyment to be diluted? This is not what football is about. It has never been and never ever will. So, why not refrain from trying to perfect a sport that thrives off its natural imperfection?
 
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SingYourHeartsOut

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Yes, nothing's changed, there are two questions still.

1. Can they actually get the decisions right? Clearly today the West Ham and Newcastle ones were very bad (Lee Mason clueless). Maybe they'll get better with Howard Webb, but who knows?

2. Even if it corrects every major mistake, do we want it anyway. The pure moment of joy that we all go for always tempered by the thought of a toenail being ahead of an armpit.
 
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Deleted member 8455jwf

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The Newcastle one is the worst one I've ever seen. The Bowen one is bad, but if you squint you can see how they'd apply a very technical interpretation of the laws but the Newcastle one Willock is literally pushed into the keeper by a Palace player. It should have been a penalty if it wasn't a goal.
 

Bossworld

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The Newcastle one is the worst one I've ever seen. The Bowen one is bad, but if you squint you can see how they'd apply a very technical interpretation of the laws but the Newcastle one Willock is literally pushed into the keeper by a Palace player. It should have been a penalty if it wasn't a goal.
Devil's advocate here but Willock absolutely wiped the keeper out. So can't be a goal.

Was it a pen? Well it looks less of a shove than our second goal was wiped out for last week; Willock was presumably already going up for the ball even with the added momentum.

With the weird and wonderful VAR rules, can anyone confirm if it could even have been awarded as a pen, once the goal was disallowed?

Side note but strangest VAR quirk for me today was Richarlison getting booked for removing his shirt in celebration, but the goal being wiped out. The yellow still stood.
 

The Wolf In The North

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On the thread that cropped up last week, about the last time anyone enjoyed watching us play, it's no coincidence that for many people it was pre Covid and pre VAR.

It's a blight on the game, pure and simple. It's no longer possible to enjoy goals in the way we used to, because the spectre of VAR is always there. And football is about goals. That's what it is.

It's not a corrupt system, I don't personally believe that referees favour or penalise certain teams, but it is corruptED, being that it's a system with flaws that cause it not to function as intended.

Binning VAR would improve football overnight. They can work all they want to try and perfect it, but they'll fail because of incompetence, and the only way the true spectacle and emotion of the game will ever be brought back is by getting rid.
 
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Deleted member 8455jwf

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Devil's advocate here but Willock absolutely wiped the keeper out. So can't be a goal.

Was it a pen? Well it looks less of a shove than our second goal was wiped out for last week; Willock was presumably already going up for the ball even with the added momentum.

With the weird and wonderful VAR rules, can anyone confirm if it could even have been awarded as a pen, once the goal was disallowed?

Side note but strangest VAR quirk for me today was Richarlison getting booked for removing his shirt in celebration, but the goal being wiped out. The yellow still stood.
He was pushed into the keeper, who also jumped into him as much as Willock went into him. The goal wouldn't have been disallowed if it was adjudged to be a foul on Willock, no why would that have occurred it is literally impossible.
 

manchesterwolf17

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On the thread that cropped up last week, about the last time anyone enjoyed watching us play, it's no coincidence that for many people it was pre Covid and pre VAR.

It's a blight on the game, pure and simple. It's no longer possible to enjoy goals in the way we used to, because the spectre of VAR is always there. And football is about goals. That's what it is.

It's not a corrupt system, I don't personally believe that referees favour or penalise certain teams, but it is corruptED, being that it's a system with flaws that cause it not to function as intended.

Binning VAR would improve football overnight. They can work all they want to try and perfect it, but they'll fail because of incompetence, and the only way the true spectacle and emotion of the game will ever be brought back is by getting rid.

Another thing some fail to comprehend is that the greater significance of the goal brings with it the stronger feeling of trepidation. Ultimately ruining the moment entirely whether the goal is given or otherwise.
 

SingYourHeartsOut

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Devil's advocate here but Willock absolutely wiped the keeper out. So can't be a goal.

Was it a pen? Well it looks less of a shove than our second goal was wiped out for last week; Willock was presumably already going up for the ball even with the added momentum.

With the weird and wonderful VAR rules, can anyone confirm if it could even have been awarded as a pen, once the goal was disallowed?

Side note but strangest VAR quirk for me today was Richarlison getting booked for removing his shirt in celebration, but the goal being wiped out. The yellow still stood.
No offence, but when you say 'Devil's Advocate' what you should have said is 'completely ignoring what actually happened'. Willock was probably scoring with a header, which is why he was pushed, so if the ball hadn't gone in the correct decision would have been a penalty and a red card.
 

Bossworld

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He was pushed into the keeper, who also jumped into him as much as Willock went into him. The goal wouldn't have been disallowed if it was adjudged to be a foul on Willock, no why would that have occurred it is literally impossible.
I've watched that clip 7 or 8 times on MoTD now. I'd love to see it slow motion because Willock is in front of/too low for the ball as he arrives. Ostensibly due to the shove. What I'm asking is whether VAR rules state they can review for an earlier penalty, following a disallowed goal in the same passage of play (I don't know the answer).

I cannot see how you're blaming the keeper there, his eyes are on the ball as he gets wiped out (they're both entitled to go for it). Lineker said the keepers typically get the rub of the green for more protection (agreed on that count).

Newcastle fans are complaining about a conspiracy and conveniently forgetting two VAR decisions went their way judt last week (rightly or wrongly).
 

Bossworld

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No offence, but when you say 'Devil's Advocate' what you should have said is 'completely ignoring what actually happened'. Willock was probably scoring with a header, which is why he was pushed, so if the ball hadn't gone in the correct decision would have been a penalty and a red card.
No offence but read what I've written, asking whether VAR can pull it back or not.
 

Ned

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It’s ruined the game for me. It’s become ingrained to have VAR in the back of your mind before really celebrating - then the moment is gone anyway.

It makes me so angry that it’s been introduced and is clearly hear to stay. Still, at least the league, their sponsors and the bookies can all profit from more control on results.
 
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Deleted member 8455jwf

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I've watched that clip 7 or 8 times on MoTD now. I'd love to see it slow motion because Willock is in front of/too low for the ball as he arrives. Ostensibly due to the shove. What I'm asking is whether VAR rules state they can review for an earlier penalty, following a disallowed goal in the same passage of play (I don't know the answer).

I cannot see how you're blaming the keeper there, his eyes are on the ball as he gets wiped out (they're both entitled to go for it). Lineker said the keepers typically get the rub of the green for more protection (agreed on that count).

Newcastle fans are complaining about a conspiracy and conveniently forgetting two VAR decisions went their way judt last week (rightly or wrongly).
Well that specific incident it would be impossible to review, as they aren't going to disallow a goal for a foul by Willock and then award him a penalty for said foul. But yeah they can come back to give a pen if a goal is disallowed for say offside later on.
 

Bossworld

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Well that specific incident it would be impossible to review, as they aren't going to disallow a goal for a foul by Willock and then award him a penalty for said foul. But yeah they can come back to give a pen if a goal is disallowed for say offside later on.
This is the PL's guidance. Perhaps this is the first time this particular combination/scenario has occurred.


For what it's worth, the PL state the goal was ruled out for the foul on the keeper

 
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Deleted member 8455jwf

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This is the PL's guidance. Perhaps this is the first time this particular combination/scenario has occurred.


For what it's worth, the PL state the goal was ruled out for the foul on the keeper

I've honestly got no idea what point you are trying to make here? Yeah I know it was ruled out for foul on keeper, I don't think it was a foul.

This is the first time a goal has been ruled out for a foul by VAR?
 

manchesterwolf17

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It’s ruined the game for me. It’s become ingrained to have VAR in the back of your mind before really celebrating - then the moment is gone anyway.

It makes me so angry that it’s been introduced and is clearly hear to stay. Still, at least the league, their sponsors and the bookies can all profit from more control on results.


The fact is it literally ruins legitimate goals as well. Other than a penalty, how can you ever really be 100% sure the goal you've just witnessed is going to stand? Answer - You can't.

It winds me up so much how this is overlooked completely by the media, who focus on how long decisions take and whether we should hear what they're discussing. Who cares? How will that change anything to the actual hatred many fans feel toward it?
 

Sussex Wolf

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Awful system. Overused by incompetent referees who refuse proper scrutiny on their decisions. We’ve seen repeated instances of SP explaining their incomprehensible decisions by making interpretations of the rules up on the fly. Is it biased towards certain teams? Perhaps not consciously, but just as onfield referees can sometimes appear influenced by the crowd or team/players, so can VAR officials by unconscious bias towards certain teams or players.

Ultimately PGMOL acts like it is a law onto itself and this needs to stop. There needs to be independent oversight of PGMOL.
 

Bossworld

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I've honestly got no idea what point you are trying to make here? Yeah I know it was ruled out for foul on keeper, I don't think it was a foul.

This is the first time a goal has been ruled out for a foul by VAR?
I'm not sure if you're being purposefully obtuse. Combination/scenario clearly meaning this specific foul > foul > OG combination.

We disagree as to whether it's a foul on the keeper.

If it is, you've answered my question above. If it's been given as a foul on the keeper, you've said VAR won't rewind for a foul on Willock in the build up.
 

Scallywolf

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At least VAR was consistent in Schars potential leg breaker on Pedro last week and Van Dijks potential leg breaker on Onana this week.

Both awful challenges with yellow cards which should have been red.
 
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I'm not sure if you're being purposefully obtuse. Combination/scenario clearly meaning this specific foul > foul > OG combination.

We disagree as to whether it's a foul on the keeper.

If it is, you've answered my question above. If it's been given as a foul on the keeper, you've said VAR won't rewind for a foul on Willock in the build up.

If it isn't a foul on the keeper, Willock 99% gets a pen.
If it is a foul on Willock then it is impossible he fouls the keeper. A prevents B from occurring so there is no need for a wind back. It would be foul > advantage played and penalty not awarded as goal scored.

It is very simple.


Clear push for me, he is jumping about to head the ball in and the push when you're in the air moving at speed is enough to change trajectory considerably.
 

Bossworld

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If it is a foul on Willock then it is impossible he fouls the keeper. A prevents B from occurring so there is no need for a wind back. It would be foul > advantage played and penalty not awarded as goal scored.

It is very simple.


Clear push for me, he is jumping about to head the ball in and the push when you're in the air moving at speed is enough to change trajectory considerably.
Yep, he's arriving too low/late to connect, again, ostensibly because he's been pushed.

Hit reply while trying to flesh out that last line, hence removed. Further up, SingYourHeartsOut says something about "if the ball hadn't gone in" and that's the contributory issue. If it was a shove on Willock on its own, no keeper clattering and no OG, it'd be a dead straight forward VAR check for possible penalty.

"It is very simple"

It is, but only if the VAR flow follows your logic, which it seems hasn't happened. I don't know why that is, and that's the point I was trying to make/seek clarification on
 
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Deleted member 8455jwf

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Yep, he's arriving too low/late to connect, again, ostensibly because he's been pushed.

Hit reply while trying to flesh out that last line, hence removed. Further up, SingYourHeartsOut says something about "if the ball hadn't gone in" and that's the contributory issue. If it was a shove on Willock on its own, no keeper clattering and no OG, it'd be a dead straight forward VAR check for possible penalty.

"It is very simple"

It is, but only if the VAR flow follows your logic, which it seems hasn't happened. I don't know why that is, and that's the point I was trying to make/seek clarification on
If it was ruled as I see it correctly, then it would have been a goal and no penalty required as the advantage law would come into play allowing goal to be scored. If there was no OG then yes I believe a penalty should have been awarded by VAR. It is actually really dangerous play to shove a player in the air like that, not saying a red card but it is poor.
I think the VAR flow was just they thought it was a foul, imo incorrectly. Nothing more than that
 
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VAR has become a monster…the fiction that the referee makes the decision is a plain lie as when they go to the monitors ( instructed by VAR) the decision is always changed…..if VAR was only for offside ( with a margin for error like DRS or a clearer definition of feet only ) or when the ref asked for clarification it might be livable ….but it’s interventions are totally wrong .
 

SA Wolf

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So much wrong with football at the moment and VAR is right up there. I didn't watch the Newcastle match but from what I've seen, there was a clear push on Willock and the goal (or penalty) should result. I did watch the Chelsea match and the Cornet goal should have stood. Yes, there was a trailing leg by Bowen, but it was innocuous and the goal keepers momentum meant that Bowen could not avoid contact. Ball broke to Cornet and he did what he needed to. VAR asking ref to reappraise was nuts!!

Like others have said, I'd be happy without the not-fit-for-purpose ruining the game (further). Scrap it off!
 

Stratman Wolves

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It’s ruined the game for me. It’s become ingrained to have VAR in the back of your mind before really celebrating - then the moment is gone anyway.

It makes me so angry that it’s been introduced and is clearly hear to stay. Still, at least the league, their sponsors and the bookies can all profit from more control on results.
I didn't celebrate for the same reason. I am sad that it has gotten to this point. Don't get me wrong, I still feel "joy", I am happy to see it but I immediately tell myself "it always happens..." its made me cynical, I hate that.
 

Jamwolf

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I get that VAR can help when the ref is far from the action (eg the Neves foul last week) but when he's so close it seems crazy.
As it happens I thought that both VAR decisions were right.
 

JadeWolf

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The fact is it literally ruins legitimate goals as well. Other than a penalty, how can you ever really be 100% sure the goal you've just witnessed is going to stand? Answer - You can't.

It winds me up so much how this is overlooked completely by the media, who focus on how long decisions take and whether we should hear what they're discussing. Who cares? How will that change anything to the actual hatred many fans feel toward it?
You can’t even celebrate a penalty properly in case they order a retake because of encroaching. And when Sa saves Mitrovic’s penalty the other week we had to wait to see if Sa had moved off his line too quickly.
 

Oh When the Wolves

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The whole process is a joke

1) let the ref double check for something if he might be unsure

2) ref to walk across to screen in stadium so fans have full visibility of what is happening. It’s simply a joke when in ground and no idea what is happening

3) only overturn the decision if it’s clear and obvious. This means a 30 second video period . If you don’t have enough evidence to change your view in that period - it’s likely your instinctive decision is correct

4) no lines for offsides. If you can’t tell clearly on the replay, give the goal

It really isn’t rocket science but they’ve royally ****ed it up
 

Wolf316

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I didn't celebrate for the same reason. I am sad that it has gotten to this point. Don't get me wrong, I still feel "joy", I am happy to see it but I immediately tell myself "it always happens..." its made me cynical, I hate that.
I barely celebrated Neto’s goal last week as I just knew it was going to be ruled out.
 

Bradmore Wolf

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For every right decision VAR makes, there seems to be 3 or 4 dubious calls...certainly not rectifying "clear and obvious " errors. It's not corrupt it's just poorly applied.
Nice to have a thread about it without having the usual screaming corruption, corruption!! (Well only 1 so far)
 

Frank Lincoln

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I have disliked the monstrosity that is VAR since its introduction. It has not helped the game, it has ruined the game. I keep on hoping it will be scrapped as it is not fit for purpose. Just yesterday alone there were controversial VAR decisions at Chelsea, Newcastle United and Aston Villa. Three big decisions and they got them all wrong.

I have said before that while I hesitate to call VAR corrupt, there is definitely something seriously amiss.
 

S G Wolves

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In VAR world they disallow the Palace goal - abysmal decision.

In real football world that we all love and watch it should be a goal and Palace player booked for a blatant foul shoving Willock.
 

Saltyjim

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I have disliked the monstrosity that is VAR since its introduction. It has not helped the game, it has ruined the game. I keep on hoping it will be scrapped as it is not fit for purpose. Just yesterday alone there were controversial VAR decisions at Chelsea, Newcastle United and Aston Villa. Three big decisions and they got them all wrong.

I have said before that while I hesitate to call VAR corrupt, there is definitely something seriously amiss.
I think you can add the Van Dijk tackle as a big decision they got wrong. For what its worth, whilst they made a mistake by blowing too soon at Villa I don't think it was an error of the same magnitude as at Newcastle and Chelsea. Firstly, because it was Villa and secondly because City stopped when the whistle blew so no guarantee the ball would have gone in..
So VAR continues to be awful even though former refs like Lee Mason and Mike Dean are involved! Who would have guessed that would happen? Mason was useless on the pitch with his decision making so no surprise its just as bad behind a screen.
 

Frank Lincoln

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One slight glimmer of light was that Michael Oliver did not overturn his decision at Nottingham Forest. The clown in Fawlty Towers asked him to check on the screen, which he did and stuck to his guns.
 

WickedWolfie

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Even on MOTD tonight -

'VAR isn't the problem the officials are'

'It's time to get some ex pros involved'...

Absolute nonsense. How does any of that factor in what we really hate about it?
Given how many in the game seem completely ignorant of the rules l really don't see how that would help. On MOTD the pundits often talk about what they think should happen, not what the rules say should happen.
 

WickedWolfie

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One slight glimmer of light was that Michael Oliver did not overturn his decision at Nottingham Forest. The clown in Fawlty Towers asked him to check on the screen, which he did and stuck to his guns.
Not sure that is a glimmer of hope - Mike Dean refused to even look at the screen when Ruben was fouled (and it should have been a red) by Pogba in the build up to the ManUre winner at Molineux last season - l hardly think that was helpful.
 

Frank Lincoln

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Not sure that is a glimmer of hope - Mike Dean refused to even look at the screen when Ruben was fouled (and it should have been a red) by Pogba in the build up to the ManUre winner at Molineux last season - l hardly think that was helpful.

That was obviously wrong, but yesterday Oliver went to the screen, which usually means changing the decision. Oliver stuck to his guns and hopefully we will see more of that.
 
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