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Timberwolf

Timberwolf

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WickedWolfie said:
Fair comment, albeit that if you believe that your own take on things is anything different......
Click to expand...
No, I believe **** is bad. I just don’t feel that calling Jeff and Fosun all the names under the sun because of it, is warranted. It’s not Jeff’s fault, Fosun aren’t asset stripping, they’d like to keep being owners of WW Ltd and to do that, they’ve had to make tough financial decisions.
It’s proper strange that Fosun and Jeff are vilified for taking decisions to keep the club solvent and hopefully in the Premier League, yet that’s what most people want, isn’t it?
 
Bondi Wolf

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Timberwolf said:
It’s proper strange that Fosun and Jeff are vilified for taking decisions to keep the club solvent
Click to expand...

"Solvent" has a different meaning in the Premier League though. Clubs are allowed, even forced to have losses of 35 million quid a year to comply with FFP. I say forced because if every other club is taking that loss then Wolves will have to to keep up.

So what's the point of an EPL club as an investment if it needs subsidising? The only reason could be that the club grows in value as the Prem increases in popularity worldwide and more money is pumped into it.

I wonder if Fosun have the appetite for it
 
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Bondi Wolf said:
"Solvent" has a different meaning in the Premier League though. Clubs are allowed, even forced to have losses of 35 million quid a year to comply with FFP. I say forced because if every other club is taking that loss then Wolves will have to to keep up.

So what's the point of an EPL club as an investment if it needs subsidising? The only reason could be that the club grows in value as the Prem increases in popularity worldwide and more money is pumped into it.

I wonder if Fosun have the appetite for it
Click to expand...
On paper, the new iteration of FFP, now called Financial Sustainability, should allow for clubs to very often make profits. Whereas now,
as you point out, they dont in the vast majority of seasons. Indeed, as you again point out, acceptance of losses have been built into the financial regulations, up until now.

Clubs arent going to make fortunes, and there is still a loss allowance, but the cap on wages and transfer/agent fees is going to ease the pressure markedly.

That's on paper. In reality, we may well see more inventive ways of bypassing the rules, and of rigging the market, however possible. The growth of the Latin America market is one of the early signs of this.

So club owners of mid-range clubs like Wolves are caught in a quandary: they will have less chance of challenging the top group, because of stricter rules against spending, but at the same time, it may be easier to stay afloat, also as a consequence of the new rules.

But if it becomes harder to challenge for Europe over time, then the overall value of mid-range clubs may not be as high as before.

The other possibility is that the rules are legally challenged on the basis that they stifle fair competition, something which UEFA have accepted may well be the consequence of the rule changes.

As for Fosun: they are also in a quandary. They are in the business of selling assets, especially loss-making ones, to try and reduce their ruinous debt level. At the same time, however, Wolves given them the profile and identity that comes with owning a Premier League club, and that may well be indispensable leverage for their future survival.

Fascinating times.....
 
cannockwolves

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At the end of the day it's the owners decision how much they chose to loose. No one can say fosun haven't pumped money into Wolves and it's clear something has changed. Maybe they are suffering financially, maybe the ccp have had a word about foreign investment, or maybe it is just a change in strategy. Maybe they are being influenced by Hobbs wanting to take a more Brighton approach?

The recruitment team must have been getting pretty feedup of doing loads of work for the club to ignore it and call Mendes. Maybe they are clearing the decks and stopping the Guedes/Semedo £30m type buys and trying a different approach - one I have hoped for personally.

Valuing a player is hard, getting players to settle is hard, keeping them happy is hard but getting those £5m - £10m gems that really want to be here has to be worth a go - is it any more risky than punting over £100m on the likes of Guedes, Cunha, and Silva?

I really don't belive this nonsense about asset stripping, in no way is it in Fosun's interest even if they were selling up.

This is just a change in strategy force by economics, politics, or maybe a loss of faith in the Mendes carousel?
 
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cannockwolves said:
At the end of the day it's the owners decision how much they chose to loose. No one can say fosun haven't pumped money into Wolves and it's clear something has changed. Maybe they are suffering financially, maybe the ccp have had a word about foreign investment, or maybe it is just a change in strategy. Maybe they are being influenced by Hobbs wanting to take a more Brighton approach?

The recruitment team must have been getting pretty feedup of doing loads of work for the club to ignore it and call Mendes. Maybe they are clearing the decks and stopping the Guedes/Semedo £30m type buys and trying a different approach - one I have hoped for personally.

Valuing a player is hard, getting players to settle is hard, keeping them happy is hard but getting those £5m - £10m gems that really want to be here has to be worth a go - is it any more risky than punting over £100m on the likes of Guedes, Cunha, and Silva?

I really don't belive this nonsense about asset stripping, in no way is it in Fosun's interest even if they were selling up.

This is just a change in strategy force by economics, politics, or maybe a loss of faith in the Mendes carousel?
Click to expand...

Brilliant post
 
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cannockwolves said:
At the end of the day it's the owners decision how much they chose to loose. No one can say fosun haven't pumped money into Wolves and it's clear something has changed. Maybe they are suffering financially, maybe the ccp have had a word about foreign investment, or maybe it is just a change in strategy. Maybe they are being influenced by Hobbs wanting to take a more Brighton approach?

The recruitment team must have been getting pretty feedup of doing loads of work for the club to ignore it and call Mendes. Maybe they are clearing the decks and stopping the Guedes/Semedo £30m type buys and trying a different approach - one I have hoped for personally.

Valuing a player is hard, getting players to settle is hard, keeping them happy is hard but getting those £5m - £10m gems that really want to be here has to be worth a go - is it any more risky than punting over £100m on the likes of Guedes, Cunha, and Silva?

I really don't belive this nonsense about asset stripping, in no way is it in Fosun's interest even if they were selling up.

This is just a change in strategy force by economics, politics, or maybe a loss of faith in the Mendes carousel?
Click to expand...
You need to read how bad the scouting and recruitment team at spurs have it with Levy……

It is soooo bad it is unreal!!!! He has killed deals when the player is en-route to the contract signing!!! For that player to join a prem rival and smash it……
 
JohnB

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wolvesjoe said:
On paper, the new iteration of FFP, now called Financial Sustainability, should allow for clubs to very often make profits. Whereas now,
as you point out, they dont in the vast majority of seasons. Indeed, as you again point out, acceptance of losses have been built into the financial regulations, up until now.

Clubs arent going to make fortunes, and there is still a loss allowance, but the cap on wages and transfer/agent fees is going to ease the pressure markedly.

That's on paper. In reality, we may well see more inventive ways of bypassing the rules, and of rigging the market, however possible. The growth of the Latin America market is one of the early signs of this.

So club owners of mid-range clubs like Wolves are caught in a quandary: they will have less chance of challenging the top group, because of stricter rules against spending, but at the same time, it may be easier to stay afloat, also as a consequence of the new rules.

But if it becomes harder to challenge for Europe over time, then the overall value of mid-range clubs may not be as high as before.

The other possibility is that the rules are legally challenged on the basis that they stifle fair competition, something which UEFA have accepted may well be the consequence of the rule changes.

As for Fosun: they are also in a quandary. They are in the business of selling assets, especially loss-making ones, to try and reduce their ruinous debt level. At the same time, however, Wolves given them the profile and identity that comes with owning a Premier League club, and that may well be indispensable leverage for their future survival.

Fascinating times.....
Click to expand...
Completely agree with this.

To add I’d note that my owner is bigger than your owner - which we’ve become - is not sustainable. However much money a side has only one can win PL and only one can win FA Cup and only one team can win Champions League. With a limit on players (not just registered players), there are enough players and talent to go around to make league competitive below big 6/7.

The real trick isn’t about spending more (we cannot compete with City, Newcastle and the big other Big 6/7 sides) it is about how we find the players, how we grow revenue, ensuring the right coaching and right manager to implement.

Not investing in ground, pared back operational and football management are concerns.
 
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cannockwolves said:
At the end of the day it's the owners decision how much they chose to loose. No one can say fosun haven't pumped money into Wolves and it's clear something has changed. Maybe they are suffering financially, maybe the ccp have had a word about foreign investment, or maybe it is just a change in strategy. Maybe they are being influenced by Hobbs wanting to take a more Brighton approach?

The recruitment team must have been getting pretty feedup of doing loads of work for the club to ignore it and call Mendes. Maybe they are clearing the decks and stopping the Guedes/Semedo £30m type buys and trying a different approach - one I have hoped for personally.

Valuing a player is hard, getting players to settle is hard, keeping them happy is hard but getting those £5m - £10m gems that really want to be here has to be worth a go - is it any more risky than punting over £100m on the likes of Guedes, Cunha, and Silva?

I really don't belive this nonsense about asset stripping, in no way is it in Fosun's interest even if they were selling up.

This is just a change in strategy force by economics, politics, or maybe a loss of faith in the Mendes carousel?
Click to expand...
Fosun are definitely struggling financially as better informed people than me have explained. I would link "the mighty thor's" (?) excellent post on the matter if i knew how.
In a nut shell, they have funded massive expansion, and acquisitions, with borrowed money and the value of those acquisitions has not increased or delivered the profits forecast because of the global economic stagnation post covid and the Russian-Ukraine war, whilst interest payments on their borrowings and bonds are increasing or due to be repaid.
The whole Chinese economy is struggling and Fosun can also not be anything other than adversely affected by that.
All together this means they are short of cash and probably do not have any funds or appetite any longer to subsidise WWFC losses.
Not sure it is a change of strategy - Fosun always said that we were supposed to be self sufficient and have a buy to sell policy, Jeff Shi has just been very poor at delivering that as he has signed off on over paying for players like Silva, Guedes, Cutrone, Cunha et al, whilst not selling players at or near their peak when there was supposed to be interest (Traore, Raul, Neto etc).
I also dont believe Fosun are asset stripping, but they certainly seem to be hoarding cash for a reason.
The strategy was parked for reasons I dont understand, but probably because Fosun were happy with the good times when they could afford it, but they have flip flopped over what approach they really want to take from about a year before Nuno left as financial reality has set in.
 
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Timberwolf said:
No, I believe **** is bad. I just don’t feel that calling Jeff and Fosun all the names under the sun because of it, is warranted. It’s not Jeff’s fault, Fosun aren’t asset stripping, they’d like to keep being owners of WW Ltd and to do that, they’ve had to make tough financial decisions.
It’s proper strange that Fosun and Jeff are vilified for taking decisions to keep the club solvent and hopefully in the Premier League, yet that’s what most people want, isn’t it?
Click to expand...
Jeff runs the football club and the football clubs transfer policy over the last few years has been abysmal so that literally is his fault?
 
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Timberwolf said:
No, I believe **** is bad. I just don’t feel that calling Jeff and Fosun all the names under the sun because of it, is warranted. It’s not Jeff’s fault, Fosun aren’t asset stripping, they’d like to keep being owners of WW Ltd and to do that, they’ve had to make tough financial decisions.
It’s proper strange that Fosun and Jeff are vilified for taking decisions to keep the club solvent and hopefully in the Premier League, yet that’s what most people want, isn’t it?
Click to expand...
IMO Jeff and Fosun are getting flak because of 4 years of turgid football, then being relegation favourites (spread 2/1 to 4/1 ) and then not spending money to put those matters right.
Losing a manager weeks before the season started. And they knew his character for 10 years !!
Selling £80 million of players and in addition to that £80 million, letting go for free, of experienced players like Coady , Costa and Moutinho with no replacement.

You give the impression its irrational fan behavior. It certainly isn't irrational.
 
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O

old wittonian

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wwbug said:
IMO Jeff and Fosun are getting flak because of 4 years of turgid football, then being relegation favourites (spread 2/1 to 4/1 ) and then not spending money to put those matters right.
Losing a manager weeks before the season started. And they knew his character for 10 years !!
Selling £80 million of players and in addition to that £80 million, letting go for free, of experienced players like Coady , Costa and Moutinho with no replacement.

You give the impression its irrational fan behavior. It certainly isn't irrational.
Click to expand...
Thought we got about £8 million for Coady. Costa and Mouts were out of contract.
 
Timberwolf

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The Wolf Of Wombourne said:
Jeff runs the football club and the football clubs transfer policy over the last few years has been abysmal so that literally is his fault?
Click to expand...

So, Guedes and Cutrone…huge disappointments and the jury is still out on Cunha and Fabio. However, then we have profits on Neves, Jota, Mir, Doherty, Cav, H. Costa, Vinagre, etc etc…and then we have good buys like Sa, Kilman, Jimenez, Bueno, Dawson, Ait-Nouri, Lemina, A. Traore, Sasa (?) Gomes…

So, not abysmal.
 
Timberwolf

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wwbug said:
IMO Jeff and Fosun are getting flak because of 4 years of turgid football, then being relegation favourites (spread 2/1 to 4/1 ) and then not spending money to put those matters right.
Losing a manager weeks before the season started. And they knew his character for 10 years !!
Selling £80 million of players and in addition to that £80 million, letting go for free, of experienced players like Coady , Costa and Moutinho with no replacement.

You give the impression its irrational fan behavior. It certainly isn't irrational.
Click to expand...
It is though, isn’t it…? :tearsofjoy:
 
Timberwolf

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wwbug said:
No but its the flirting with relegation , the turgid football , and one of the lowest scoring teams in Europe, that comes about from the total movement in and out of players.
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I would say that’s a coaching issue. I’m sure Jeff didn’t hire Nuno, Bruno, Lop or GON to make Wolves be low scorers. The coaches have certainly been backed so you can’t claim they haven’t. Strange as it may seem but I look at our squad and I think it’s quite strong but I will concede depth of quality is an issue.
 
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Timberwolf said:
I would say that’s a coaching issue. I’m sure Jeff didn’t hire Nuno, Bruno, Lop or GON to make Wolves be low scorers. The coaches have certainly been backed so you can’t claim they haven’t. Strange as it may seem but I look at our squad and I think it’s quite strong but I will concede depth of quality is an issue.
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I would only say on those grounds ( which I dont agree with) , you seem to be saying Nuno , Bruno, Loppy were not very good.
 
Timberwolf

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wwbug said:
I would only say on those grounds ( which I dont agree with) , you seem to be saying Nuno , Bruno, Loppy were not very good.
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I adore Nuno, the man. As a coach, he definitely had his flaws but he delivered. Can’t say I was convinced by Lop but you stated ‘turgid football’ and this didn’t improve after Lage got the boot.
 
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Timberwolf said:
I adore Nuno, the man. As a coach, he definitely had his flaws but he delivered. Can’t say I was convinced by Lop but you stated ‘turgid football’ and this didn’t improve after Lage got the boot.
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For me our turgid football was down to not having a goalscorer.
Play lacks attacking focus. It becomes defensive in mind and nature. Just my opinion .
 
WickedWolfie

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bod101 said:
back to the pub rumours please not the ffp financials stuff there are plenty of threads for that discussion
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Oh, l don't know bod.... At my local that is the topic of conversation every night.... Isn't that the case where you go drinking??? lol....
 
sillytuna

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cannockwolves said:
At the end of the day it's the owners decision how much they chose to loose. No one can say fosun haven't pumped money into Wolves and it's clear something has changed. Maybe they are suffering financially, maybe the ccp have had a word about foreign investment, or maybe it is just a change in strategy. Maybe they are being influenced by Hobbs wanting to take a more Brighton approach?

The recruitment team must have been getting pretty feedup of doing loads of work for the club to ignore it and call Mendes. Maybe they are clearing the decks and stopping the Guedes/Semedo £30m type buys and trying a different approach - one I have hoped for personally.

Valuing a player is hard, getting players to settle is hard, keeping them happy is hard but getting those £5m - £10m gems that really want to be here has to be worth a go - is it any more risky than punting over £100m on the likes of Guedes, Cunha, and Silva?

I really don't belive this nonsense about asset stripping, in no way is it in Fosun's interest even if they were selling up.

This is just a change in strategy force by economics, politics, or maybe a loss of faith in the Mendes carousel?
Click to expand...
It was never asset stripping, it was very obviously getting things in good order. The issue was really about communication - internally and externally from the sound of it. If it was asset stripping, we'd have flogged off first teamers and we didn't. Even the Nunes thing has been last minute and we are at least spending some of that. We have a better squad as a result tho perhaps missing that bit of class - depending how players like Sasa do.

Jeff deserves grief not because of money Fosun do or don't put in, that's not up to him, but because of how it's been used and the lack of strategic long term planning. There's no defending it, from Nuno's final season onwards it's been awful. I feel more comfortable with Hobbs on transfers but less sure about managers! Still, we don't know what his remit was.

I have no pub gossip. Sorry!
 
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Timberwolf said:
So, Guedes and Cutrone…huge disappointments and the jury is still out on Cunha and Fabio. However, then we have profits on Neves, Jota, Mir, Doherty, Cav, H. Costa, Vinagre, etc etc…and then we have good buys like Sa, Kilman, Jimenez, Bueno, Dawson, Ait-Nouri, Lemina, A. Traore, Sasa (?) Gomes…

So, not abysmal.
Click to expand...
The profits have come from players early doors and most of the good buys were Jan since Hobbs took charge. In the middle there was a load of money wasted either by buying poor players, over paying or under selling which was my point when I said the last few years.

We are actually employing a director of football to do a director of football job rather than Jeff thinking he knows how to pick players and negotiate. Shock horror it’s starting to work a little better.
 
Sussex Wolf

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Meanwhile, up the M6, it seems the Man Utd takeover is off (for now)… source Daily Mail, so more or less a pub rumour!

talksport.com

Man United takeover 'off' as Glazer family plan to revisit sale of club in 2025

The Glazer family are taking Manchester United off the market having failed to attract an offer meeting their asking price. According to the Daily Mail, the American moguls will try and sell the cl…
talksport.com talksport.com
 
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Sussex Wolf said:
Meanwhile, up the M6, it seems the Man Utd takeover is off (for now)… source Daily Mail, so more or less a pub rumour!

talksport.com

Man United takeover 'off' as Glazer family plan to revisit sale of club in 2025

The Glazer family are taking Manchester United off the market having failed to attract an offer meeting their asking price. According to the Daily Mail, the American moguls will try and sell the cl…
talksport.com talksport.com
Click to expand...
Perhaps that means the Qataris will be looking for a different Prem club to buy. I know one with a very sexy balance sheet...
 
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