Refereeing Inquiry NOW

[WolfLing]

We need to try and regroup then go again. The players need to start to take the bull by the horns and get us out of this mess. This circus with the officials right now is bloody annoying but we have to focus and keep going or we've had it.

Yes, it is an unwanted distraction at the moment.

Nunes shouldn’t have been sent off and it should be appealed, but that didn’t impact the scoreline at all.

I worry that all this noise might give them someone else to blame and stop our players from taking personal responsibility for their performances.

 

[Sammy Chungs Tracksuit]

According to Percy in the Telegraph (link in tweet above):-

“Wolves are set to submit video evidence which they believe will prove Nunes did not commit violent conduct. Telegraph Sport understands that Nunes was provoked by a remark made by assistant linesman Gary Beswick.”

If true, that’s a ****ing disgrace and he should be struck off and made to publicly apologise to Nunes, the club and fans. And to think some on here think we are “Victim FC”.

No sign from that video that the assistant said anything to rile Nunes unless it was after the collision. No violent conduct either but still not great that we are were surrounding the linesman mob handed. We need a bit more disciplined. I think Lopetegui could pick up a ban and Nunes might be reduced to 1 game but I doubt they will drop the ban. They should have been in Marriner's ear though rather than the Linos unless there were aggrevating factors that are not clear from the video. .

 

[Fenrir_]

No sign from that video that the assistant said anything to rile Nunes unless it was after the collision. No violent conduct either but still not great that we are were surrounding the linesman mob handed. We need a bit more disciplined. I think Lopetegui could pick up a ban and Nunes might be reduced to 1 game but I doubt they will drop the ban. They should have been in Marriner's ear though rather than the Linos unless there were aggrevating factors that are not clear from the video. .

Did you see Marriner though? Just stood there paying no attention, as if he wasn't listening, may as well have had his fingers in his ears going "la la la la"! I do think watching Nunes' reaction is that something was said after the red card, he was pretty calm up until that moment and then he flipped

 

[Zico]

It's not just the flash points that are the problem. It's the low level, under the radar nonsense we get from referees. Leeds started time wasting straight after their first goal. We were complaining, the referee eventually started warning the Leeds players. They carried on doing it, no action. The player Dawson fouled stays down for a couple of minutes. A VAR check on the penalty. A goal. Total time added on at the end of the half - 2 minutes. This kind of stuff just gets us wound up, and it's not the first time, look at the joke that was added time against United. As long as referees are allowed to be unaccountable, they'll carry on. Looking forward to Webb's postcard from his summer holidays apologising for sending us down.

 

[Jonzy54]

We all know how weak and ineffective Riley was .He and his cohorts allowed poor referees to continue ,often into their 50’s where some of them were treading water to keep up with play and yet despite a catalogue of mistakes there were next to no sanctions applied against them .
Webb has been appointed ,he has streamlined some of the jobs for the boys element and we have seen some officials removed .
Webb is a decent guy and I have ‘high’ hopes we will see dramatic changes before long .Every week we are seeing more and more controversy and as the buck stops at his door he has to defend things more and more and having to make apologies .The problem is he inherited many of these officials and he can’t just get rid of them all in one go because who would replace them ? Not withstanding they are full time so they would be contracted to the PGMOL so that would have its own problems .
The more controversies we see just means the problems are not going away and I genuinely believe we will start to see improvements before too long and boy does the game need them.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

We all know how weak and ineffective Riley was .He and his cohorts allowed poor referees to continue ,often into their 50’s where some of them were treading water to keep up with play and yet despite a catalogue of mistakes there were next to no sanctions applied against them .
Webb has been appointed ,he has streamlined some of the jobs for the boys element and we have seen some officials removed .
Webb is a decent guy and I have ‘high’ hopes we will see dramatic changes before long .Every week we are seeing more and more controversy and as the buck stops at his door he has to defend things more and more and having to make apologies .The problem is he inherited many of these officials and he can’t just get rid of them all in one go because who would replace them ? Not withstanding they are full time so they would be contracted to the PGMOL so that would have its own problems .
The more controversies we see just means the problems are not going away and I genuinely believe we will start to see improvements before too long and boy does the game need them.

We live in hope. Thing is he's clearly trying to get VAR to step back, his comments about how the Raul penalty was a mistake by the onfield ref but the VAR was correct not to intervene, show that the bar is now extremely high. On that basis you could see why the Semedo penalty and the Adama shirt pull don't get given (although of course Coote did try to give the shirt pull). Really those of us who want rid of VAR should applaud this, but that certainly wasn't how it felt!

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Did you see Marriner though? Just stood there paying no attention, as if he wasn't listening, may as well have had his fingers in his ears going "la la la la"! I do think watching Nunes' reaction is that something was said after the red card, he was pretty calm up until that moment and then he flipped

To be honest, if the assistant said something along the lines of “you got what you deserved” then that’s probably enough to trigger Nunes at that stage, given he would just have seen the injustice of the Adama foul and know that it was the Assistant who walked into him. That would probably be seen by PGMOL as an unnecessary and unhelpful comment by the Assistant, but not worthy of any reprimand.

If it was something worse, such as “your club got what it deserved”, or something personal related to Nunes appearance or nationality, then it could result in suspension or worse for the Assistant.

My guess from the reaction of Costa later in restraining him and not himself getting involved, it was more likely the first than the second type of comment.

 

[Jonzy54]

To be honest, if the assistant said something along the lines of “you got what you deserved” then that’s probably enough to trigger Nunes at that stage, given he would just have seen the injustice of the Adama foul and know that it was the Assistant who walked into him. That would probably be seen by PGMOL as an unnecessary and unhelpful comment by the Assistant, but not worthy of any reprimand.

If it was something worse, such as “your club got what it deserved”, or something personal related to Nunes appearance or nationality, then it could result in suspension or worse for the Assistant.

My guess from the reaction of Costa later in restraining him and not himself getting involved, it was more likely the first than the second type of comment.

I would find it highly unlikely that such comments would be uttered .More likely along the lines of ‘It wasn’t a foul’
Who knows ?

 

[Sussex Wolf]

I would find it highly unlikely that such comments would be uttered .More likely along the lines of ‘It wasn’t a foul’
Who knows ?

You’re probably right Jonzy, and given how hyped up the Wolves bench were by the injustice of the clear foul in front of them, then that would probably have been enough to trigger an initial response from Nunes. What makes me wonder a little though, is his later reaction when we see Costa having to restrain him. He is seriously angry at that point, which makes me wonder if perhaps the comment or comments were more than the Assistant just expressing his professional opinion of the refs decision. Nunes is a bit hot headed, like Jota used to be, so maybe it’s just a reaction to the injustice he felt. Would be juicy and helpful to Wolves cause with refs in general if it were something more though!

 

[Jonzy54]

You’re probably right Jonzy, and given how hyped up the Wolves bench were by the injustice of the clear foul in front of them, then that would probably have been enough to trigger an initial response from Nunes. What makes me wonder a little though, is his later reaction when we see Costa having to restrain him. He is seriously angry at that point, which makes me wonder if perhaps the comment or comments were more than the Assistant just expressing his professional opinion of the refs decision. Nunes is a bit hot headed, like Jota used to be, so maybe it’s just a reaction to the injustice he felt. Would be juicy and helpful to Wolves cause with refs in general if it were something more though!

All we can hope for is the the Red card is overturned .I can imagine Webb opening his emails this morning and saying to his secretary’ Can you get me Gary Beswick on the line’

 

[glorybox]

It appears to me that the referees/assistant referees/VAR are now doing their utmost to put us in our place. Show us who's boss. And there is **** all we can do about it.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

All we can hope for is the the Red card is overturned .I can imagine Webb opening his emails this morning and saying to his secretary’ Can you get me Gary Beswick on the line’

I said on another thread, I think by that stage of the game, certainly Salisbury and perhaps others in his team at Molineux, had had enough of Wolves. He got an earful first half and at HT after the penalty shout, and perhaps felt that by initially giving yellows for both Dawson and Jonny fouls, he was being pretty fair to Wolves and didn’t deserve the agro he was getting from the bench. He was forced by VAR to look at the Adama foul on the monitor, but if he was feeling ****ed at Wolves for what he perceived as unjust attacks on him, then maybe he just said to himself, sod it there’s enough interpretation in that foul that I can let the goal stand, and just get this game over with. If so, his subsequent red for Nunes may have been an over reaction, reflecting his irritation with the Wolves bench.

His stony face response to Julen screaming at him on the pitch and general body language following the final whistle certainly suggested he wasn’t happy. I also note that it was reported that he allowed Julen’s assistant and the club secretary to visit his office after the game. I think in prior games, it’s been Julen who has gone in to discuss matters with the ref.

 

[Super NES]

We live in hope. Thing is he's clearly trying to get VAR to step back, his comments about how the Raul penalty was a mistake by the onfield ref but the VAR was correct not to intervene, show that the bar is now extremely high. On that basis you could see why the Semedo penalty and the Adama shirt pull don't get given (although of course Coote did try to give the shirt pull). Really those of us who want rid of VAR should applaud this, but that certainly wasn't how it felt!

Setting the higher bar for when VAR gets involved is a good idea, but implementing this consistently across multiple referee's is not going to work as each referee's threshold for what to check (when under pressure etc) won't be the same. There will be inherent unconscious bias at play.

The only solution I see to overcome the initial problem of what to check vs what not to check is to take it out of the referee's hands. Instead work on an appeal basis, with the captains deciding what they want to review (with a max number allocated to each team). This still doesn't mean the correct end decision will be made, as its still subjective to how a human interprets the play, but at least the first issue is resolved.

The whole application of VAR and the lack of consistency is just a farce at the moment, and ruining games for the paying fan (either live or on tv).

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Setting the higher bar for when VAR gets involved is a good idea, but implementing this consistently across multiple referee's is not going to work as each referee's threshold for what to check (when under pressure etc) won't be the same. There will be inherent unconscious bias at play.

The only solution I see to overcome the initial problem of what to check vs what not to check is to take it out of the referee's hands. Instead work on an appeal basis, with the captains deciding what they want to review (with a max number allocated to each team). This still doesn't mean the correct end decision will be made, as its still subjective to how a human interprets the play, but at least the first issue is resolved.

The whole application of VAR and the lack of consistency is just a farce at the moment, and ruining games for the paying fan (either live or on tv).

My biggest issue with that when a 90th minute winner is scored there will inevitably be an appeal and VAR review as you may as well hope they cam find something.

 

[Super NES]

My biggest issue with that when a 90th minute winner is scored there will inevitably be an appeal and VAR review as you may as well hope they cam find something.

It's a fair point, and no doubt this would happen at times assuming a team hasn't already max'd out their appeals.

Still trying to find the best way to use this system after 3(?) years since introduction shows what a mess the application of VAR in our league has been.

 

[glorybox]

Setting the higher bar for when VAR gets involved is a good idea, but implementing this consistently across multiple referee's is not going to work as each referee's threshold for what to check (when under pressure etc) won't be the same. There will be inherent unconscious bias at play.

The only solution I see to overcome the initial problem of what to check vs what not to check is to take it out of the referee's hands. Instead work on an appeal basis, with the captains deciding what they want to review (with a max number allocated to each team). This still doesn't mean the correct end decision will be made, as its still subjective to how a human interprets the play, but at least the first issue is resolved.

The whole application of VAR and the lack of consistency is just a farce at the moment, and ruining games for the paying fan (either live or on tv).

When VAR was planned to be introduced I assumed that a lot of decisions would be taken out of the referees hands altogether so that people with the technology immediately to hand could step in and correct or assist with contentious issues. This would have also alleviated the animosity towards the referee on the pitch. I still believe that is how it should end up being used.

 

[Fenrir_]

Just seen that Dermot Gallagher reckoned Junior Firpo got enough of the ball...

 

[Cousins78]

Just seen that Dermot Gallagher reckoned Junior Firpo got enough of the ball...

Give me a break, these Idiots get paid to talk utter crap

 

[Wolf316]

Give me a break, these Idiots get paid to talk utter crap

He did say the fourth goal shouldn’t have stood.

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

Wonder what they will serve up for us against forest

 

[SA Wolf]

Just seen that Dermot Gallagher reckoned Junior Firpo got enough of the ball...

I didn't see him get ANY of the ball, let alone 'enough' of it!

 

[Alienwolf]

Wonder what they will serve up for us against forest

Was just thinking the same. I’m going for a Gillet & Coote combo. It’s got disaster written all over it.

 

[SA Wolf]

TOM COLLOMOSSE: VAR must start getting the big calls right

TOM COLLOMOSSE AT MOLINEUX: In the most dramatic Premier League relegation battle for many years, there is huge pressure on the officials to get the big decisions right.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Hot Fuss]

The Ref today turned the game against Fulham to get Manure through with THREE red cards with 28 minutes to go to get Manure through.

No he didn’t.

 

[Super NES]

When VAR was planned to be introduced I assumed that a lot of decisions would be taken out of the referees hands altogether so that people with the technology immediately to hand could step in and correct or assist with contentious issues. This would have also alleviated the animosity towards the referee on the pitch. I still believe that is how it should end up being used.

I think the challenge with all of this is around what is deemed worthy to review i.e classed as contentious, and applying the treatment consistently. That's not solved if the decision maker of what is reviewed is the ref or someone in Stockley Park, and is why us (and other teams no doubt) feel aggrieved when something isn't looked at.

I think the only way you get around this is put the decision in the hand of the teams so that they decide what gets reviewed (similar process to Cricket). That way we don't end up leaving the ground asking why was x/y/z not looked at - again not a perfect solution but better than what we have currently imo.

The recent refs we have seen aren't helping themselves with some questionable calls, but they are taking the brunt of the flack when I don't think they should - the system in its current use is essentially flawed.

 

[clivewolves]

Seeing as we are on an international break I thought I would check out some old football matches. The first full match I saw available on YouTube was Man Utd vs Liverpool on New Years Day 1989. Not the best match but it's fast paced.

I've watched about on hour so far and what is noticeable is how easy the game seems to be for the referee to do his job compared to football today. He's not trying to decipher the latest interpretation of handball or offside. He's managing the game and letting the play continue whenever he can. The players' attitudes are also very different. There's been some tough but fair challenges, but players get on with it. There's no back chat, chasing the ref or crowding around him. Players aren't feigning injury. Beardsley needed the physio twice, once for a head injury and again when a United player wiped him out. There was a potential handball in the box in the first half, but the ref said no and players got on with the match. Plus there weren't twenty slow motion close-up replays by the broadcaster for fans to get wound about.

Not that this helps with the current situation. It's not as if we can go back. Plus this might be an exception and other matches were more confrontational. It just seems a more pleasant experience for the footballers and the referee.

If Podence had been on the end of the tackle at 50 min 50 seconds I don't think he would have got back up, never mind shake the opponents hand.

 

[bilstonwolf]

The impossible job: inside the world of Premier League referees

Players, pundits and fans complain bitterly that referees are getting worse each season – but is that fair?

www.theguardian.com

Interesting read, if this was meant to improve their image it hasn't gone well.

 

[wolvesaywe]

The impossible job: inside the world of Premier League referees

Players, pundits and fans complain bitterly that referees are getting worse each season – but is that fair?

www.theguardian.com

Interesting read, if this was meant to improve their image it hasn't gone well.

It's the referees who make their job impossible by being so utterly inept week after week

Between them and VAR it's no wonder players and fans alike are always one bad decision away from exploding with rage

Notice how refs past and present have closed ranks after the Mitrovic incident and looking to shift blame to the players. Mitrovic was merely conveying the feelings we all have after years of incompetence

How about they stop hiding away and come out after every game and explain their decisions. That is the only way to restore any faith whatsoever

 

[SuperGran]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1638206330325581826

 

[JadeWolf]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1638206330325581826

What a gob****e.

 

[SuperGran]

What a gob****e.

Lifetime ban and baggies season ticket would be a fitting punishment

 

[SuperGran]

Referee suspended for using phone to disallow goal

best use of var yet

 

[chignalwolf]

Lifetime ban and baggies season ticket would be a fitting punishment

I'd go even further than that, make it a home and away season ticket,

 

[Hazza]

Seeing as we are on an international break I thought I would check out some old football matches. The first full match I saw available on YouTube was Man Utd vs Liverpool on New Years Day 1989. Not the best match but it's fast paced.

I've watched about on hour so far and what is noticeable is how easy the game seems to be for the referee to do his job compared to football today. He's not trying to decipher the latest interpretation of handball or offside. He's managing the game and letting the play continue whenever he can. The players' attitudes are also very different. There's been some tough but fair challenges, but players get on with it. There's no back chat, chasing the ref or crowding around him. Players aren't feigning injury. Beardsley needed the physio twice, once for a head injury and again when a United player wiped him out. There was a potential handball in the box in the first half, but the ref said no and players got on with the match. Plus there weren't twenty slow motion close-up replays by the broadcaster for fans to get wound about.

Not that this helps with the current situation. It's not as if we can go back. Plus this might be an exception and other matches were more confrontational. It just seems a more pleasant experience for the footballers and the referee.

If Podence had been on the end of the tackle at 50 min 50 seconds I don't think he would have got back up, never mind shake the opponents hand.

Love the loo roll being thrown on

 

[Contrarian]

Pass success rate about 10% You're right though, the match flows far better than what we see now. The players themselves must take a lot of the blame because the amount of play acting, diving and all round unsporting behaviour is huge now, when it was minimal back then. There were always a few who acted up, but 99% just got on with it. VAR basically got introduced because players can't stop cheating. The problem with it being that it hasn't helped at all.

Perhaps improving the game could start with clamp down on players hassling the ref.

BTW That match is the season when Arsenal took the title from Liverpool in injury time in that famous last match at Anfield. Was the last time Liverpool won the title till a couple of years ago.

Forest were 3rd. Norwich 4th. Derby 5th.I don't think live league football had been on TV for long, started in the mid-80's with a few matches as I recall. The stifling presence of the Big 6 monopoly yet to exist. The Premier League would soon be formed and it was all downhill from there.

 

[wwfc9]

Pass success rate about 10% You're right though, the match flows far better than what we see now. The players themselves must take a lot of the blame because the amount of play acting, diving and all round unsporting behaviour is huge now, when it was minimal back then. There were always a few who acted up, but 99% just got on with it. VAR basically got introduced because players can't stop cheating. The problem with it being that it hasn't helped at all.

Perhaps improving the game could start with clamp down on players hassling the ref.

BTW That match is the season when Arsenal took the title from Liverpool in injury time in that famous last match at Anfield. Was the last time Liverpool won the title till a couple of years ago.

Forest were 3rd. Norwich 4th. Derby 5th.I don't think live league football had been on TV for long, started in the mid-80's with a few matches as I recall. The stifling presence of the Big 6 monopoly yet to exist. The Premier League would soon be formed and it was all downhill from there.

Never really understood why it’s not a rule that no one can go and moan and plead with the ref !! I’ve never seen one change his mind as a result of this so don’t really see the point anyway ….

 

[WickedWolfie]

We all know how weak and ineffective Riley was .He and his cohorts allowed poor referees to continue ,often into their 50’s where some of them were treading water to keep up with play and yet despite a catalogue of mistakes there were next to no sanctions applied against them .
Webb has been appointed ,he has streamlined some of the jobs for the boys element and we have seen some officials removed .
Webb is a decent guy and I have ‘high’ hopes we will see dramatic changes before long .Every week we are seeing more and more controversy and as the buck stops at his door he has to defend things more and more and having to make apologies .The problem is he inherited many of these officials and he can’t just get rid of them all in one go because who would replace them ? Not withstanding they are full time so they would be contracted to the PGMOL so that would have its own problems .
The more controversies we see just means the problems are not going away and I genuinely believe we will start to see improvements before too long and boy does the game need them.

I do wonder if PGMOL got legal advice before starting issuing those apologies. If not they could come back to bite them big time if someone litigates.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Never really understood why it’s not a rule that no one can go and moan and plead with the ref !! I’ve never seen one change his mind as a result of this so don’t really see the point anyway ….

It's not to change his mind about the last decision, it's for the next one.

 

[WickedWolfie]

It appears to me that the referees/assistant referees/VAR are now doing their utmost to put us in our place. Show us who's boss. And there is **** all we can do about it.

Sue the rearend off PGMOL....

 

[WickedWolfie]

I said on another thread, I think by that stage of the game, certainly Salisbury and perhaps others in his team at Molineux, had had enough of Wolves. He got an earful first half and at HT after the penalty shout, and perhaps felt that by initially giving yellows for both Dawson and Jonny fouls, he was being pretty fair to Wolves and didn’t deserve the agro he was getting from the bench. He was forced by VAR to look at the Adama foul on the monitor, but if he was feeling ****ed at Wolves for what he perceived as unjust attacks on him, then maybe he just said to himself, sod it there’s enough interpretation in that foul that I can let the goal stand, and just get this game over with. If so, his subsequent red for Nunes may have been an over reaction, reflecting his irritation with the Wolves bench.

His stony face response to Julen screaming at him on the pitch and general body language following the final whistle certainly suggested he wasn’t happy. I also note that it was reported that he allowed Julen’s assistant and the club secretary to visit his office after the game. I think in prior games, it’s been Julen who has gone in to discuss matters with the ref.

He was utterly ****e. He probably knew that he is utterly out of his depth but like many sad inadequates is unwilling to admit it.