Hwang

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

The thing is, i reckon he could be quite good if we tried to get the ball in the box. Since the Jota move, I've realised more than ever how much importance the system has on players. By being out wide, he's completely anonymous and by not ever getting the ball in the box we're wasting his best quality (finishing).

Bingo, Jota isn't technically brilliant (better than Hwang but still got a ropey touch) but in a direct team that creates chances he scores bunches

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

Maybe we could get away with it by saying "That Rafa Mir, he's not as rubbish as we thought, we've changed our mind on him now"?

Sure Sevilla would understand when we tell them it was just a clerical error and we meant to sell them Hwang, not Mir, so the swap will be in the post.

Mir is just a back up for them tbf. They've realised unless he scores he offers absolutely nothing else. Rafa Mir Stats | FBref.com

Can barely trap it

 

[CologneWolf]

Mir is just a back up for them tbf. They've realised unless he scores he offers absolutely nothing else. Rafa Mir Stats | FBref.com

Can barely trap it

Haha so exactly like Hwang here.

 

[Contrarian]

Mir is just a back up for them tbf. They've realised unless he scores he offers absolutely nothing else. Rafa Mir Stats | FBref.com

Can barely trap it

Very true. The only catch is that results are based around actual goals scored, not trapped balls (ouch!). I prefer a player who does nothing in a match, but crops up with the vital goal, than the one who does all the backheels, tricks'n'flicks but rarely scores or creates. We have several of the latter! Can only afford one as a luxury, yet we often have taken to the field with three of them - it is no surprise we don't score many.

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

Very true. The only catch is that results are based around actual goals scored, not trapped balls (ouch!). I prefer a player who does nothing in a match, but crops up with the vital goal, than the one who does all the backheels, tricks'n'flicks but rarely scores or creates. We have several of the latter! Can only afford one as a luxury, yet we often have taken to the field with three of them - it is no surprise we don't score many.

Nah, how much you contribute to team wins is far more important than occasionally scoring yourself.

 

[Contrarian]

Nah, how much you contribute to team wins is far more important than occasionally scoring yourself.

If we had a player who did nothing other than score a goal every 2 matches, we'd be top 6. Wins need someone to score goals and we've struggled really badly with that most of this (and last) season. Exhibit A: Adama Traore. Contributes lots, but neither scores nor creates anything resembling actual goals. And he's not the worst we have.

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

If we had a player who did nothing other than score a goal every 2 matches, we'd be top 6. Wins need someone to score goals and we've struggled really badly with that most of this (and last) season. Exhibit A: Adama Traore. Contributes lots, but neither scores nor creates anything resembling actual goals. And he's not the worst we have.

Except if that player didn't link up play, didn't press and was constantly out of position then they could have removed more goals than they add.

 

[Contrarian]

Except if that player didn't link up play, didn't press and was constantly out of position then they could have removed more goals than they add.

Yep. Unfortunately we can only guess at all the alternatives! Though Sevilla don't seem to be struggling *too* much to score despite having Mir who can't trap a ball to save his life. I'm just working backwards from our miserable "goals scored" (though improved recently), to try and work out why that would be. And though it is many factors, I still think the key one is, we just don't have enough actual goal scorers , so one more would be useful. Hwang looked initially like he could be that player - scored 4 vital goals in his first few matches without doing much else - but has faded to nothing recently. Maybe he'll get his mojo back and do nothing other than score 2 or 3 more vital goals in the run in, as we need them for sure and if he did, I would take that. We have 10 other players who can do the frilly stuff.

 

[CologneWolf]

@jwolfie91 @Contrarian

I tell you what though it’s ****ing refreshing to see a difference of opinion not descend into name calling for a change. Hat’s off gentleman.

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

Yep. Unfortunately we can only guess at all the alternatives! Though Sevilla don't seem to be struggling *too* much to score despite having Mir who can't trap a ball to save his life. I'm just working backwards from our miserable "goals scored" (though improved recently), to try and work out why that would be. And though it is many factors, I still think the key one is, we just don't have enough actual goal scorers , so one more would be useful. Hwang looked initially like he could be that player - scored 4 vital goals in his first few matches without doing much else - but has faded to nothing recently. Maybe he'll get his mojo back and do nothing other than score 2 or 3 more vital goals in the run in, as we need them for sure and if he did, I would take that. We have 10 other players who can do the frilly stuff.

Sevilla haven't consistently started him since January. They actually start players who have scored less goals, he is their top scorer, for the reasons I mentioned.

 

[Oh When the Wolves]

Has he been sold yet

 

[CologneWolf]

Has he been sold yet

Not yet mate. I’m just as outraged as you are.

 

[Contrarian]

Sevilla haven't consistently started him since January. They actually start players who have scored less goals, he is their top scorer, for the reasons I mentioned.

Well, he's still young, Harry Kane was playing for the Dog & Doughnut pub team in his 20's. Don't write any player off too soon.

 

[Ian]

Nah, how much you contribute to team wins is far more important than occasionally scoring yourself.

Not if youre the only one putting the ball in the back of the net.

 

[goldfish]

I remember Lage saying in an early interview that Hwang was someone the club had been monitoring for some time and thought highly of. It didn't seem like it was his choice and doesn't look like the kind of player that fits his style of play.

My understanding is that Nuno chose Podence over Hwang and Olmo back in 2020. Thelwell and the previous head scout were big fans of Hwang supposedly.

 

[AndyWolves]

Hwang

 

[Wolfyyy]

Hwang is getting a lot of stick here and I feel it is not entirely his fault. I think he is played out of position - he is simply not a winger. He fares so much better when he attacks as an inverted forward or as a support striker alongside Raul. He is far more effective when he is played more centrally - just take a look at every single of his goals from the onset of the attack up till he scores. He knows how to poach a goal inside the box. His goal against Arsenal epitomises that I meant. He cannot play as a solo striker up front, but he needs someone like Raul to link up to unleash the potential in him. To me, he is more effective in a 3 5 2 than in a 3 4 3.

For some unexplainable reason, he seems to do a whole lot more back passes and doesn’t attempt as much to beat his man when he hugs along the side line as opposed to when he is placed centrally - his passes and movement are a lot more adventurous when he is placed in the thick of the action.

Anyone else feels the same?

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

I struggle to know his best position

 

[Supadavewolf]

Hwang is getting a lot of stick here and I feel it is not entirely his fault. I think he is played out of position

Quite a few Mixers on here, myself included, have made the same point. Hwang looks more effective centrally than out wide. This was also argued by a Mixer who had seen Hwang playing in Germany.

 

[Minimalist]

Perhaps large has plans to adjust our formation/style next season and he thinks this change will suit Hwang better.

 

[wolfgar]

That Newcastle game said it all for me. We need far better wide options than Hwang and Trincao are able to offer. I can see mileage in playing Hwang centrally, he looks far better there, but Trincao, whilst talented, is nothing like as effective as we need him to be.

 

[wwbug]

Yep. Unfortunately we can only guess at all the alternatives! Though Sevilla don't seem to be struggling *too* much to score despite having Mir who can't trap a ball to save his life. I'm just working backwards from our miserable "goals scored" (though improved recently), to try and work out why that would be. And though it is many factors, I still think the key one is, we just don't have enough actual goal scorers , so one more would be useful. Hwang looked initially like he could be that player - scored 4 vital goals in his first few matches without doing much else - but has faded to nothing recently. Maybe he'll get his mojo back and do nothing other than score 2 or 3 more vital goals in the run in, as we need them for sure and if he did, I would take that. We have 10 other players who can do the frilly stuff.

But look at the teams Hwang scored those few goals against. I think that is vital, in judging his ability and at what level he can score.

Watford, Leeds and Newcastle . Four goals in about 4 weeks . All leaking goals at the time. It looks good only against Silva and Trincao

 

[Norwegian Wolf]

Hwang is getting a lot of stick here and I feel it is not entirely his fault. I think he is played out of position - he is simply not a winger. He fares so much better when he attacks as an inverted forward or as a support striker alongside Raul. He is far more effective when he is played more centrally - just take a look at every single of his goals from the onset of the attack up till he scores. He knows how to poach a goal inside the box. His goal against Arsenal epitomises that I meant. He cannot play as a solo striker up front, but he needs someone like Raul to link up to unleash the potential in him. To me, he is more effective in a 3 5 2 than in a 3 4 3.

For some unexplainable reason, he seems to do a whole lot more back passes and doesn’t attempt as much to beat his man when he hugs along the side line as opposed to when he is placed centrally - his passes and movement are a lot more adventurous when he is placed in the thick of the action.

Anyone else feels the same?

Me.
Same with Jota (wasted stuck out on the wing for us), Gibbs White (wasted stuck out on the wing for us), Podence (wasted stuck out on the wing for us), Trincao (just wasted..) etc. Even Adama, wasted for 12 months trying to make him the new Doherty as wingback when all we had to do was switch Jonny, who is twice the player on the right than he was on the left.

I don't speak Portuguese, have any coaching badges and have never trained kids in the Benfica academy, but some things look pretty obvious to me.

 

[KBWWFC]

Very true. The only catch is that results are based around actual goals scored, not trapped balls (ouch!). I prefer a player who does nothing in a match, but crops up with the vital goal, than the one who does all the backheels, tricks'n'flicks but rarely scores or creates. We have several of the latter! Can only afford one as a luxury, yet we often have taken to the field with three of them - it is no surprise we don't score many.

But Mir doesn't create his own goals, he's reliant on others.

He doesn't just pop up with a goal out of the blue - he has a 12% shot conversion and 38% shot accuracy, he's not hyper clinical. (I've argued this to death before so many times).

(For reference, the average conversion / accuracy for all players with 10+ league goals this season is 25% / 57%)

Our chance creation is non-existant, midfielders sit too deep to protect the back line, we don't progress the ball through the middle, we intentionally attack areas where we're statistically less likely to score, which makes us easy to defend against.

 

[Contrarian]

But look at the teams Hwang scored those few goals against. I think that is vital, in judging his ability and at what level he can score.

Watford, Leeds and Newcastle . Four goals in about 4 weeks . All leaking goals at the time. It looks good only against Silva and Trincao

Yes, that's a really good point. Though TBF, this applies to several other of our players, really. Trincao only scored against that same leakey Leeds. Fabio got a a couple against abysmal Albion last season. I know he's gone, but I think Vitinha is a good example as he only had eye catching performances against the same abysmal Albion and a better, though not very good, Chorley.

There is another side to this as well. There have been plenty of other sides leaking goals - Norwich, for example - yet in 2 matches we have hardly created anything against them. Take those goals of Hwangs off against Newcastle and Leeds and we have 4 less points. He still did what none of our other forwards could manage against them. He scored at a time when we could hardly buy a goal. I just think overall, at this level (strongest league in the world) goals are not to be sniffed at. If (yes, a big if!), Hwang could score 3 or 4 more before season end , then 8 or 9 in a first season in this league, for his price.... sounds decent enough for anything other than the most fickle. Though even if he doesn't, there's been a fair few forwards cost a lot more and done a lot less over the years. He's not been very good, but he's not the total disaster some seem to be saying. Decent enough squad player at this level, perhaps.

 

[Wigan Wolf]

Hwang

That’s not today’s Wordle

 

[Andywolf74]

Why not play him as a central striker the last few games and see how well he links up with Raul? Both Nuno and Bruno to some degree seem intent on trying a number of players out wide, when maybe two centre forwards would help us play through the centre, instead of out wide to cross it into a lone striker.

 

[wwbug]

Yes, that's a really good point. Though TBF, this applies to several other of our players, really. Trincao only scored against that same leakey Leeds. Fabio got a a couple against abysmal Albion last season. I know he's gone, but I think Vitinha is a good example as he only had eye catching performances against the same abysmal Albion and a better, though not very good, Chorley.

There is another side to this as well. There have been plenty of other sides leaking goals - Norwich, for example - yet in 2 matches we have hardly created anything against them. Take those goals of Hwangs off against Newcastle and Leeds and we have 4 less points. He still did what none of our other forwards could manage against them. He scored at a time when we could hardly buy a goal. I just think overall, at this level (strongest league in the world) goals are not to be sniffed at. If (yes, a big if!), Hwang could score 3 or 4 more before season end , then 8 or 9 in a first season in this league, for his price.... sounds decent enough for anything other than the most fickle. Though even if he doesn't, there's been a fair few forwards cost a lot more and done a lot less over the years. He's not been very good, but he's not the total disaster some seem to be saying. Decent enough squad player at this level, perhaps.

Dammed with faint praise . I really doubt Hwang will score , he isn’t good enough. I have seen enough .
And I am getting ****ed off that Fosun don’t seem to have identified it’s importance.

 

[berwickwolf]

Why not play him as a central striker the last few games and see how well he links up with Raul? Both Nuno and Bruno to some degree seem intent on trying a number of players out wide, when maybe two centre forwards would help us play through the centre, instead of out wide to cross it into a lone striker.

I think it would be better for our development to play fabio there to get more minutes and experience.

 

[I'm the Wanderer]

hwang will score if he's a 9 to Raul's 10

 

[Contrarian]

Dammed with faint praise . I really doubt Hwang will score , he isn’t good enough. I have seen enough .
And I am getting ****ed off that Fosun don’t seem to have identified it’s importance.

Would definitely like to see him played more centrally , as a striker, basically, before we give up on him.

I think Fosun have idendified the importance - they just don't seem to have anywhere near the success rate with strikers as they do with any other position. Cutrone, Bonitini, Jose - all seemed decent prospects when we acquired them (as did Hwang), though none of them worked out. Even Fabio. I would guess those who stumped up the money were surprised how far off delivering when they saw him in action. The thing in his favour is he's too young to be written off just yet. Give it another 2 or 3 years, though. If I was a financial backer, I'd raising a quizzical eyebrow at yet more tens of millions requested for another attempt at a striker!

"Yes, but Raul..." (and I'd be more annoyed about more millions requested for yet another tricky winger)

 

[wwbug]

Would definitely like to see him played more centrally , as a striker, basically, before we give up on him.

I think Fosun have idendified the importance - they just don't seem to have anywhere near the success rate with strikers as they do with any other position. Cutrone, Bonitini, Jose - all seemed decent prospects when we acquired them (as did Hwang), though none of them worked out. Even Fabio. I would guess those who stumped up the money were surprised how far off delivering when they saw him in action. The thing in his favour is he's too young to be written off just yet. Give it another 2 or 3 years, though. If I was a financial backer, I'd raising a quizzical eyebrow at yet more tens of millions requested for another attempt at a striker!

"Yes, but Raul..." (and I'd be more annoyed about more millions requested for yet another tricky winger)

But with the best agent in the world why can’t we find a goalscorer . I can think of 30 countries other than Portugal that play football including England !
Like you I would give Hwang a central role alongside Raul , because just as Trincao is no centre forward nor is Hwang a wide player .

 

[AndyY]

hwang will score if he's a 9 to Raul's 10

So would Silva

 

[Wednesbury Wolf]

hwang will score if he's a 9 to Raul's 10

I agree with that, I do think that he can become a decent player if played in the right position.

 

[Andywolf74]

Would definitely like to see him played more centrally , as a striker, basically, before we give up on him.

I think Fosun have idendified the importance - they just don't seem to have anywhere near the success rate with strikers as they do with any other position. Cutrone, Bonitini, Jose - all seemed decent prospects when we acquired them (as did Hwang), though none of them worked out. Even Fabio. I would guess those who stumped up the money were surprised how far off delivering when they saw him in action. The thing in his favour is he's too young to be written off just yet. Give it another 2 or 3 years, though. If I was a financial backer, I'd raising a quizzical eyebrow at yet more tens of millions requested for another attempt at a striker!

"Yes, but Raul..." (and I'd be more annoyed about more millions requested for yet another tricky winger)

I think we should look more at the best young players in the Championship. In the summer when we signed Fabio, Brentford had just missed out on promotion and for similar money (possibly even a bit less), we could have signed Ivan Toney. Jarrod Bowen is another example of a player we could have signed from Hull for by today’s standard’s,a fairly modest fee.

 

[wwbug]

I think we should look more at the best young players in the Championship. In the summer when we signed Fabio, Brentford had just missed out on promotion and for similar money (possibly even a bit less), we could have signed Ivan Toney. Jarrod Bowen is another example of a player we could have signed from Hull for by today’s standard’s,a fairly modest fee.

The problem is the British market is left to Scott Sellars who seems unable to spot or recruit genuine top level British talent.
This is how I judge him and how I am sure many others judge him rightly or wrongly

 

[Frank Lincoln]

I could be wrong, I often am! But I can't help wondering if Hwang will come good if Raul leaves, or if Hwang is played up top instead of RauI. think he is wasted out wide. Though Bruno sees his players every day in training, so it's fair to say he knows a lot more about them than I do.

 

[Rhyl Wolf]

The problem is the British market is left to Scott Sellars who seems unable to spot or recruit genuine top level British talent.
This is how I judge him and how I am sure many others judge him rightly or wrongly

Share this concern. No grumble with the recruitment overall, but just think it would be beneficial to incorporate the odd player from the Championship. Outside of City / L'pool, Bowen must be in running for Player of the Season.

 

[freezin]

On the subject of Rafa Mirs technical ability.
Bully wasn't particularly technically gifted.

...I'll leave that there.

 

[Contrarian]

I think we should look more at the best young players in the Championship. In the summer when we signed Fabio, Brentford had just missed out on promotion and for similar money (possibly even a bit less), we could have signed Ivan Toney. Jarrod Bowen is another example of a player we could have signed from Hull for by today’s standard’s,a fairly modest fee.

I agree. But with the caveat that much the same as getting strikers from anywhere, it is a big leap to the Premier League and no guarantee that they will do as well there. It's a feature of it that for years now, we've seen these strikers who can get 20+ goals in a full Championship season. Yet that translates into 6 in the Premier, if you're lucky. Mitrovic, for example. Dwight Gayle, Ebanks-Blake and there must be more.

Though the advantage is players don't have the "settling abroad" thing to worry about. I just think Fabio's signing was an exceptionally odd one for us. We have been looking for someone whose not really flavour of the month, somebody under the radar, to burst on the scene when we sign them. It did work brilliantly with Raul, just hasn't with any others yet.