Gary O'Neil - tactics

[Jefe]

So on reflection, what did he get right and wrong yesterday?

Starting with a 4231. Wrong if understandable?

Swapping Neto and Hwang initially. Wrong?

Swapping them back. Right

Going to a 3/5 atb when we were being dominated. Right

Leaving 2 up top when we had 10 men ? Right

Bringing on Doc as a LWB. Wrong, maybe RAN was struggling, maybe Doc over Bueno for height and strength?

Leaving Neto as a lone striker .Wrong, but maybe settling for a point in a game you've been poor in with 10 men makes it understandable?

Or am I too worried about tactics and it was just about intensity?

• Going unchanged: wrong. If you're on a successful streak it makes sense of course, but the side who capitulated in the second half last week couldn't have complained if he made changes. Luton obviously present a different challenge to Liverpool, so persisting with luxury players like Cunha (who was largely anonymous again) demonstrated an unawareness of tactical context.
• Going with the same front three: wrong. If he must insist on Neto-Cunha-Hwang, even that precise configuration is sub-optimal. Cunha is not a number 9, and Hwang would be a better fit in the middle. Cunha may find more space out wide to run at defenders.
• Starting Hwang and Neto switched: wrong. Neto tore Gomez apart down the left last week for large spells, so of course let's randomly start him down the right, where he has historically struggled to hit his best form. GON saw sense eventually and reverted, which then led to us gaining a foothold in the game.
• Going 5 at the back: right. The sensible call, and a rare example of O'Neill employing a premeditated tactical change that had the desired effect. It invited Luton on to us of course, but we only needed to be moderately well organised to blunt Luton's limited attack force. Over-hit passes and crosses became the only outlet, easily dealt with by Dawson and Kilman, who really came into their own at this point. It was pretty comfortable stuff for the most part.
• Bringing on Doc for RAN at LWB: mega wrong. RAN was arguably our best defender in the first half. Assuming he had a mystery knock, square pegs in square holes when you have Bueno available; Doc has never played in that specific position to my knowledge. Should've been a straight swap at RWB, and Bueno at LWB if RAN was hurt. Semedo was poor until then (the sort of performance we've come to expect in the less glamorous ties), first shanking a clearance that led to Morris hitting the post, and was so clearly targeted by Luton that even the commentators were making note of it, with Dawson playing outside of him at points. He was so determined to not go forward that he'd rather set up a Luton player with a hospital back pass after the break.
• Leaving two up: mixture. It was good that he kept two up top as a positive outlet, but the goal was not a result of that. It came from sheer will and individual brilliance by Neto. It doesn't change the reality that neither Neto nor Cunha are centre forwards that can make the ball stick. Sasa had to come on, really. It increasingly feels like GON and Sasa have fallen out.
• Taking off Cunha for another midfielder, leaving Neto as a lone striker: mega wrong. Pedro was handily MOTM but a lone striker he is not. He would have understood if GON brought on Sasa as a tactical change. The ball just kept coming back. It's really because Luton are so poor that this didn't bite us on the **** - a semi-competent side would've punished us for that.

 

[Contrarian]

If you play 3 at the back you absolutely HAVE to play with two defensive midfielders unless you have a squad that Pep has. With the quality of CB’s we have, there is absolutely no way on earth do we play 3/5 without two defensive midfielders. Imagine playing Toti Dawson Kilman with ait nouri and Semedo as WB and only one DM? Jesus that midfielder is subbing himself at half time as he’s just ran a 10km first 45 mins

Could have spent the cash on a defensive midfielder instead of a non-goalscoring striker and assorted players who never wanted to be here.

 

[Contrarian]

I think the debate about formation misses something crucial. O'Neil actually sets up his teams incredibly well. The half-time scorelines of our five PL games read:

0-0, 0-1, 0-0, 0-0, 1-0

We've held our own brilliantly, and whilst we've only scored one first half goal, we've only conceded one as well. And we've more than matched our opponents on the whole.

Full-time scores: 0-1, 1-4, 1-0, 2-3, 1-3. Ten goals conceded, five in the first ten minutes of the restart. This is because most PL managers tweak at half-time, set out to exploit weaknesses they've seen. They adapt mid-match. O'Neil doesn't. Lage didn't either. We're back to being hopelessly rigid and slowly reactive.

It's not the set-up, it's the inability to counter what the opponent does that screws us, plus suspect fitness levels meaning that the players can't compete as strongly as the game wears on. There's an argument to be made for starting with a 4 but putting Toti on at half-time to strengthen at our weakest time, whether replacing Ait-Nouri outright or moving to a 3 and adjusting shape in anticipation.

That's an interesting point. Though could be statistical anomaly based on only 5 data points. Also, against Luton, we very clearly were not set up well at all. O'Neil himself said that the way Luton started was not how he'd expected and he was forced to make adjusments after about 25 minutes. That did actually work until the sending off. I agree with him up to that point. But the momentum wasd already with Luton. They'd turned in by far their best 30 mins this season, for the first time they didn't look a league below their opponents. They'd given the fans something to shout about, which got to the ref and gave their players a lift.

But it all evens out over a season and when you aren't gettting the best out of your players, you will get caught out, only the detail remains to be seen. We are in a bunch of "much of a muchness" squads. There's rarely much between 8th and 17th in this league - it all comes down to getting the details right, being shrewd enough to have the edge. And we aren't getting that with O'Neil. Quite the opposite. Potential wins are turning into draws and potential draws into defeats.

 

[stevev53]

• Going unchanged: wrong. If you're on a successful streak it makes sense of course, but the side who capitulated in the second half last week couldn't have complained if he made changes. Luton obviously present a different challenge to Liverpool, so persisting with luxury players like Cunha (who was largely anonymous again) demonstrated an unawareness of tactical context.
• Going with the same front three: wrong. If he must insist on Neto-Cunha-Hwang, even that precise configuration is sub-optimal. Cunha is not a number 9, and Hwang would be a better fit in the middle. Cunha may find more space out wide to run at defenders.
• Starting Hwang and Neto switched: wrong. Neto tore Gomez apart down the left last week for large spells, so of course let's randomly start him down the right, where he has historically struggled to hit his best form. GON saw sense eventually and reverted, which then led to us gaining a foothold in the game.
• Going 5 at the back: right. The sensible call, and a rare example of O'Neill employing a premeditated tactical change that had the desired effect. It invited Luton on to us of course, but we only needed to be moderately well organised to blunt Luton's limited attack force. Over-hit passes and crosses became the only outlet, easily dealt with by Dawson and Kilman, who really came into their own at this point. It was pretty comfortable stuff for the most part.
• Bringing on Doc for RAN at LWB: mega wrong. RAN was arguably our best defender in the first half. Assuming he had a mystery knock, square pegs in square holes when you have Bueno available; Doc has never played in that specific position to my knowledge. Should've been a straight swap at RWB, and Bueno at LWB if RAN was hurt. Semedo was poor until then (the sort of performance we've come to expect in the less glamorous ties), first shanking a clearance that led to Morris hitting the post, and was so clearly targeted by Luton that even the commentators were making note of it, with Dawson playing outside of him at points. He was so determined to not go forward that he'd rather set up a Luton player with a hospital back pass after the break.
• Leaving two up: mixture. It was good that he kept two up top as a positive outlet, but the goal was not a result of that. It came from sheer will and individual brilliance by Neto. It doesn't change the reality that neither Neto nor Cunha are centre forwards that can make the ball stick. Sasa had to come on, really. It increasingly feels like GON and Sasa have fallen out.
• Taking off Cunha for another midfielder, leaving Neto as a lone striker: mega wrong. Pedro was handily MOTM but a lone striker he is not. He would have understood if GON brought on Sasa as a tactical change. The ball just kept coming back. It's really because Luton are so poor that this didn't bite us on the **** - a semi-competent side would've punished us for that.

Mr hindsight lol

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

That's an interesting point. Though could be statistical anomaly based on only 5 data points. Also, against Luton, we very clearly were not set up well at all. O'Neil himself said that the way Luton started was not how he'd expected and he was forced to make adjusments after about 25 minutes. That did actually work until the sending off. I agree with him up to that point. But the momentum wasd already with Luton. They'd turned in by far their best 30 mins this season, for the first time they didn't look a league below their opponents. They'd given the fans something to shout about, which got to the ref and gave their players a lift.

But it all evens out over a season and when you aren't gettting the best out of your players, you will get caught out, only the detail remains to be seen. We are in a bunch of "much of a muchness" squads. There's rarely much between 8th and 17th in this league - it all comes down to getting the details right, being shrewd enough to have the edge. And we aren't getting that with O'Neil. Quite the opposite. Potential wins are turning into draws and potential draws into defeats.

How was the way they started not what he expected though, they played the same 532 as all season didn't they?

 

[wolfslair]

How was the way they started not what he expected though, they played the same 532 as all season didn't they?

They also targeted the RB and used their left side for the majority of their attacks.

It was a typical Luton performance, it was just another **** attempt to pretend like he didn’t get found out and second best AGAIN in the manager head to head but this time against the manager with the weakest squad in the league.

To say he didn’t expect what happened shows he isn’t very clever at all….. they played exactly to usual gameplan.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Mr hindsight lol

Looking back at what someone did right and wrong does tend to involve some degree of hindsight though. If we could do it live ourselves, we probably wouldn't be discussing it on a forum. I did say after Liverpool I thought maybe we should have gone to a 5 at half time, but of course if we had and then still lost that decision would have been criticised.

There's always an element of 'if it we won it was right and if we lost it wasn't', but I feel like some decisions (like starting 4231) are understandable, others, like bringing Doc on at LWB take a bit more thinking about.

 

[Contrarian]

How was the way they started not what he expected though, they played the same 532 as all season didn't they?

I don't know, ask him! It's as baffling as the weird things Fosun do, because anyone whose watched the game for a few decades would know Luton, at home, against another struggling team, would be really up for it. That you'd need some physicality to match them - if you don't have Man City/Arsenal quality skilled players (which we don't ). Frustrate them from the start, don't let them get a foothold. Yet we had Mr Lightweight giving them acres of space wide on our right, as usual. Causing the rest to get pulled all over the place. And Lightweights brothers scattered all over the pitch losing every 60/40, let alone the 50/50s.

For all the stick they get, Dawson and Kilman kept us in it and not for the first time. (though Kilman shouldn't be captain, that needs fixing ASAP). Though in summarising a game involving one of Europes highest spenders in the past 5 years, against a team who cost peanuts, it is a travesty to have to suggest our CH's "kept us in it" (and credit to Neto, who will inevitably be sold for more than the Luton team cost). Shows how truly poor we are with GON at the helm.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

So credit to O'Neil today, got us set up absolutely correctly (picked the side I requested ) . A few of questions

1. Does this mean (as many wanted anyway) that we're likely to stick with a 343 (maybe looking more like that than a 541?

2. He picked out Cunha in particular for a disciplined performance. Any thoughts about what he did in particular today?

3. Was Hugo injured (sorry if I missed that) the whole Doc, then Jonny at LWB thinking looked a bit desperate?

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

Spot on today. Very impressive. Praise where praise is due.

 

[SoCal_Wolf]

So credit to O'Neil today, got us set up absolutely correctly (picked the side I requested ) . A few of questions

3. Was Hugo injured (sorry if I missed that) the whole Doc, then Jonny at LWB thinking looked a bit desperate?

Didn’t he pick up a knock in the first half at Portman Road? RAN came on at the start of the second half…

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing - deleted at own request]

So credit to O'Neil today, got us set up absolutely correctly (picked the side I requested ) . A few of questions

1. Does this mean (as many wanted anyway) that we're likely to stick with a 343 (maybe looking more like that than a 541?

2. He picked out Cunha in particular for a disciplined performance. Any thoughts about what he did in particular today?

3. Was Hugo injured (sorry if I missed that) the whole Doc, then Jonny at LWB thinking looked a bit desperate?

3. Even if he was fit I struggle to see why you'd choose Hugo in that situation over Jonny and Doc. I don't really trust Bueno defensively over those two options at the moment. In fact, he is the last person in the world I'd add to a defense in that situation. Too weak and despite multiple opportunities he has not shown the mental strength to compete at this level yet.

 

[goldfish]

2. He picked out Cunha in particular for a disciplined performance. Any thoughts about what he did in particular today?

Marked Kovacic/Phillips to prevent them dictating play from deep.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Excellent article from The Athletic, confirming the opinions above.

The tactical blueprint that enabled Wolves to beat the 'best team ever'

Gary O'Neil made specific adjustments to his team in the hope of shocking the champions... and it worked

theathletic.com

Kilman to help Dawson with Haaland.
Lemina's job to follow Alvarez.
Toti on Foden.
Cunha to stop Kovacic dictating the play.

 

[gullykular]

Latest take on GO'N-Ball after the victory over Man City

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Be interested in thoughts on today. Felt like we wanted to play as if they were City, but then we had to sort of press them rather than just surrendering one half. Not a real press though and they just played round it every time, particularly when Neto came narrow and left the right wing exposed. Would have been very hard to move away from the 343 after last week, but felt it was a bit cautious today. Would have taken a point though, and for all their control of the middle we matched them for chances, so maybe that's all a bit harsh

 

[Minimalist]

I like the fact Neto is left up the pitch when we defend corners.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

OK, I've relied on the app Comms today, so not much idea what's happened tactically (no offence Thomo).

Several people have told me we started 442, but maybe it was 343 and RAN just got over excited? Definitely 343 after we went behind and then we're we 442 again late on to chase the game? No tactical change at half time, just details like trying shooting?

 

[jrpb-3]

OK, I've relied on the app Comms today, so not much idea what's happened tactically (no offence Thomo).

Several people have told me we started 442, but maybe it was 343 and RAN just got over excited? Definitely 343 after we went behind and then we're we 442 again late on to chase the game? No tactical change at half time, just details like trying shooting?

Did seem we started 442 with RAN in midfield then went to 3 at back.Did Wonder if the team selection was deliberate to allow us to change formation depending on how Bournemouth set up

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

I'm just pleased now, to give GON some credit, we have the 'tactics' thread up top rather than the 'sack him' one which under the circumstances now seems inappropriate.

 

[Redrockwanderer]

Anyone see who the players were that celebrated the second goal with GON!? I was at the game and interestingly players went over and celebrated with him. Whilst the rest ran off with Sasa to the away end. Clearly the players have taken to him!

 

[SuperGran]

Anyone see who the players were that celebrated the second goal with GON!? I was at the game and interestingly players went over and celebrated with him. Whilst the rest ran off with Sasa to the away end. Clearly the players have taken to him!

They would have known how much that meant to him

 

[Poztin]

Looking forward to seeing some more of his layers.

 

[Ned]

OK, I've relied on the app Comms today, so not much idea what's happened tactically (no offence Thomo).

Several people have told me we started 442, but maybe it was 343 and RAN just got over excited? Definitely 343 after we went behind and then we're we 442 again late on to chase the game? No tactical change at half time, just details like trying shooting?

I honestly thought it was just a 343 but going to a 442 when we attacked in spells with RAN pushing up and Toti going wide. It was always 343 when out of possession, though, we just got caught between the two for their goal - Dawson was clearly confused as he would have come across ordinarily.

 

[peter&thewolf]

Got it wrong to start with playing 4 at the back, when we have played well in the previous games with playing 5. But at least put it right when it was going wrong

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Got it wrong to start with playing 4 at the back, when we have played well in the previous games with playing 5. But at least put it right when it was going wrong

This is the great hope for me, maybe with the extra brains he's got in, we now sort out problems within the game. That was his massive weakness for me initially, so if that's improving maybe we're going the right way.

 

[Ned]

This is the great hope for me, maybe with the extra brains he's got in, we now sort out problems within the game. That was his massive weakness for me initially, so if that's improving maybe we're going the right way.

He’s understanding the squad now too and knows the players so much better. I’m almost starting to believe…

 

[brianm]

I honestly thought it was just a 343 but going to a 442 when we attacked in spells with RAN pushing up and Toti going wide. It was always 343 when out of possession, though, we just got caught between the two for their goal - Dawson was clearly confused as he would have come across ordinarily.

It was confusing because Toti got caught waaaaaay up without really stopping the ball. Even if wolves shuffle over, there are massive alarm bells there.

The question is why on earth RAN is so far up off their keeper having possession....just in no man's land.

For as weird as that experiment was, the Doyle sub and the way the team came out in the second half is 10/10.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Having watched the extended highlights I can't see any hint of a back 4. Seems to me that RAN was just way too far up field (which he does do to be fair) and maybe Lemina would have filled in for him, but we just left a huge overload on Toti.

 

[GoldenHorseshoe]

It was confusing because Toti got caught waaaaaay up without really stopping the ball. Even if wolves shuffle over, there are massive alarm bells there.

The question is why on earth RAN is so far up off their keeper having possession....just in no man's land.

For as weird as that experiment was, the Doyle sub and the way the team came out in the second half is 10/10.

The TV commentator mentioned in the first half how many times there were huge spaces being left open, and how unusual that was in prem games.
Putting Doyle in at HT to exploit those spaces with his passing range was inspired IMO.

 

[Contrarian]

Having watched the extended highlights I can't see any hint of a back 4. Seems to me that RAN was just way too far up field (which he does do to be fair) and maybe Lemina would have filled in for him, but we just left a huge overload on Toti.

Also, some credit to Bournemouth, they built up with some fast, precise passing. Probably their best move of the match. They really did race forward on that overload, something like 6 attackers vs 5 defenders for the finish. I guess this happens when you have inexperienced players holding the midfield, they just switch off for a few seconds and at this level, that's all it takes to be way off the play desperately catching up.

If any one of the Bournemouth players in possession had stopped and looked around - you know, like we've seen our players do umpteen times in the past few seasons - then the move breaks down into safe possession passing. Good finish, too.

 

[SakosRightFoot]

Having watched the extended highlights I can't see any hint of a back 4. Seems to me that RAN was just way too far up field (which he does do to be fair) and maybe Lemina would have filled in for him, but we just left a huge overload on Toti.

It deffo was a back 4 until they scored, we even warmed up like it with the 4 doing drills and RAN doing the shooting with the midfielders & forwards. After the goal we went back to 3-4-3

Difference was Doyle coming on, he actually passed forward which I said to my dad on way home felt alien to us

 

[VancouverWolf]

Anyone see who the players were that celebrated the second goal with GON!? I was at the game and interestingly players went over and celebrated with him. Whilst the rest ran off with Sasa to the away end. Clearly the players have taken to him!

That’s a great bit of info for those of us who only get to see it on tv……that’s one of the best posts I’ve read since the game…thx.

 

[wolvesaywe]

Interesting quote from GON for all those saying he got it wrong at the start. We were set up expecting a different system...

“They normally play with a single pivot and they had a double today with the ball, so it caused us a few issues early,” O’Neil said when asked about adapting his tactics.
“The lads were trying to figure it out and it’s difficult for me to get messages on at that point.
“It’s not something they’ve done previously, so it was a new one and we got caught in between a little bit.
“It can happen. Our system caused them some problems, their system caused us some problems.
“We made a change as well and got Rayan a bit lower and let Toti get on Philip Billing to try and help Joao and Bouba. From there, we got some control. I’m disappointed it cost us a goal but these things can happen. The response from that was very, very good.”

 

[nomadwolf]

14 mins of...

 

[Aussie_Wolf]

He’s understanding the squad now too and knows the players so much better. I’m almost starting to believe…

Get off the fence, Ned. We're going to win the league.

 

[Corporate Wolf]

Interesting quote from GON for all those saying he got it wrong at the start. We were set up expecting a different system...

“They normally play with a single pivot and they had a double today with the ball, so it caused us a few issues early,” O’Neil said when asked about adapting his tactics.
“The lads were trying to figure it out and it’s difficult for me to get messages on at that point.
“It’s not something they’ve done previously, so it was a new one and we got caught in between a little bit.
“It can happen. Our system caused them some problems, their system caused us some problems.
“We made a change as well and got Rayan a bit lower and let Toti get on Philip Billing to try and help Joao and Bouba. From there, we got some control. I’m disappointed it cost us a goal but these things can happen. The response from that was very, very good.”

I had to Google it myself

 

[DanishWolf]

Interesting quote from GON for all those saying he got it wrong at the start. We were set up expecting a different system...

“They normally play with a single pivot and they had a double today with the ball, so it caused us a few issues early,” O’Neil said when asked about adapting his tactics.
“The lads were trying to figure it out and it’s difficult for me to get messages on at that point.
“It’s not something they’ve done previously, so it was a new one and we got caught in between a little bit.
“It can happen. Our system caused them some problems, their system caused us some problems.
“We made a change as well and got Rayan a bit lower and let Toti get on Philip Billing to try and help Joao and Bouba. From there, we got some control. I’m disappointed it cost us a goal but these things can happen. The response from that was very, very good.”

Shows the disadvantage of setting up his team to counter the oppositions tactics, but it also shows his ability to quickly make necessary changes, when the opposition setup differently than expected. Well done Gary,

 

[Ned]

Shows the disadvantage of setting up his team to counter the oppositions tactics, but it also shows his ability to quickly make necessary changes, when the opposition setup differently than expected. Well done Gary,

Agree. We could do with a “stock system” that we play more often than not and not just set up for what we expect the opposition to do. Obviously it’s horses for courses but games like Saturday are ones I’d love for us to, one day, swagger in to and do what we do best regardless of how they set up.

 

[SuperGran]