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Gary O'Neil - tactics

Chisels_n_ommers

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I don’t know if it has been mentioned on this thread, but I do wonder if the players aren’t fit enough, which is down to our training staff. Conceding 10 goals out of 11 in the second half of our 5 matches would seem to confirm that.

JL had a top class backroom staff and the players seemed a lot fitter than this season (so far). We could see out games and our home form was excellent.

We must improve our fitness levels imo.

Oh and GO must rethink what he says in the half time team talk as well!
These players were fighting fit against Rennes and Man Utd, 1 month ago.

An athlete in his 20s who's got that fit and then eats the most healthy food, trains nearly every day and plays in prem matches on a weekend does not lose fitness in that time period.

That should be put to bed.

It's the way they are being deployed, not their fitness levels
 

Contrarian

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Have just looked at his managerial stats…this guys record is incredible! Won pretty much everything to win in South America and has a 54% win rate in 463 games! His teams have scored nearly two goals a game in that time (over 800!) with a plus 422 goal difference having conceded less than a goal a game. Like I said above, with 4 South Americans now in our squad this would be the perfect time to go and get him…use some of the Nunes money to make it happen….come on Jeff…you know it makes sense!

And what happens when he says "I will need these players to get us scoring goals. And these defenders need replacing to play how I want to play.. and I'll need these coaches and .. .and ..."? Will Fosun stump up the cash, or will he be our third excellent manager to leave "by mutual consent"? Probably to be replaced by some guy whose managed Stevenage to top of League 1. Or worse (remember Zenga?)
 

WolfLing

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Noticed something new against Liverpool, but hard to explain what I mean!

For the last few years, we've seen our centre backs passing the ball out to the fullback. The fullback looks up the line, nothing is on, so more often than not it goes back to the centre back, across the back-line and the same happens in the other fullback position.

This was coined 'the horseshoe of death' under Nuno, but moving to a back 4 didn't really change much.

There was a new pass that has happened a few times this season, but was a lot more noticeable against Liverpool, where the centre back misses out our fullback and passes it to a midfield player occupying the space between the opposition fullback, centre back and midfield, with his back to the opposition goal. The fullback can then run on and the receiving player lays it off to him into his path when he's already at full speed attacking the opposition.

Happened a few times with Dawson bypassing a few players by playing it inside to Bellgarde, with Semedo running off him. Looks a far more effective way of attacking the flanks and Semedo got clear quite a few times in the first half by doing it.

One minor positive I suppose!
 
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Fifty Niner

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"But Wolves abandoned their pursuit given the hurdles in poaching from a rival top-flight club days before the new season was due to begin."

So Edwards was firstchoice, and GON second choice? We only went for GON, because it was too difficult(expensive) to get Edwards.

An established PL club, and this is what our DOF went for. What a complete mess...
And to think, Beale was his first choice post Lage until Lopetegui came galloping over the horizon.
 

Fifty Niner

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Noticed something new against Liverpool, but hard to explain what I mean!

For the last few years, we've seen our centre backs passing the ball out to the fullback. The fullback looks up the line, nothing is on, so more often than not it goes back to the centre back, across the back-line and the same happens in the other fullback position.

This was coined 'the horseshoe of death' under Nuno, but moving to a back 4 didn't really change much.

There was a new pass that has happened a few times this season, but was a lot more noticeable against Liverpool, where the centre back misses out our fullback and passes it to a midfield player occupying the space between the opposition fullback, centre back and midfield, with his back to the opposition goal. The fullback can then run on and the receiving player lays it off to him into his path when he's already at full speed attacking the opposition.

Happened a few times with Dawson bypassing a few players by playing it inside to Bellgarde, with Semedo running off him. Looks a far more effective way of attacking the flanks and Semedo got clear quite a few times in the first half by doing it.

One minor positive I suppose!
A positive move. Pity they can’t figure out another way of attacking apart from the flanks.
 

goldeneyed

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Until we go back to three centre backs with either Santi Bueno or Toti joining Dawson and Kilman we will continue to leak goals. The latter two are much more comfortable and effective in a three at the back. Dawson' is increasingly slow on the turn and Kilman is not fast either. Playing in a four they look vulnerable. The stats clearly show the defensive set up is not working or at least certainly not over 95 minutes or whatever. So Gary over to you.
 

northnorfolkwolf

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Request please. Could someone please find that lengthy video from the Bournemouth fan about GON which was posted on the Mix some time ago. I've looked for it and can't find it. Could you please re-post it on this thread. We're now 5 games in and getting some idea of how GON thinks and works. I'm sure it would be interesting to see how things are here with how things were at B'mouth under GON. Many thanks.
 

SingYourHeartsOut

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Request please. Could someone please find that lengthy video from the Bournemouth fan about GON which was posted on the Mix some time ago. I've looked for it and can't find it. Could you please re-post it on this thread. We're now 5 games in and getting some idea of how GON thinks and works. I'm sure it would be interesting to see how things are here with how things were at B'mouth under GON. Many thanks.
This one?
Post in thread 'Gary O'Neil tactics' Gary O'Neil tactics
 

Chisels_n_ommers

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Request please. Could someone please find that lengthy video from the Bournemouth fan about GON which was posted on the Mix some time ago. I've looked for it and can't find it. Could you please re-post it on this thread. We're now 5 games in and getting some idea of how GON thinks and works. I'm sure it would be interesting to see how things are here with how things were at B'mouth under GON. Many thanks.

This one might give you nightmares....
 

VancouverWolf

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That was in November last year
You haven't seen any indication this summer that the strategy has changed?
That’s a fair question.
Truthfully, I’m not sure what to think at this point. Although a lot has changed, I doubt that Guo’s strategy has changed. Why would it?
Losing a coach is no reason to change plans or strategies….…you adapt, accept the setback, and move on.
 

SingYourHeartsOut

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That’s a fair question.
Truthfully, I’m not sure what to think at this point. Although a lot has changed, I doubt that Guo’s strategy has changed. Why would it?
Losing a coach is no reason to change plans or strategies….…you adapt, accept the setback, and move on.
Cause and effect confused again.
 

SingYourHeartsOut

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That’s hardly fair…….or accurate.
Also I doubt you have any pertinent info than I do.

Remember, I was responding to Danish about strategies………not setbacks or temporary conditions.
We lost the manager because the strategy changed. It's obvious, here it is in the sporting directors own words, but it got worse again. Hence we didn't 'balance out', we made a huge profit (even including the January signings).

 

SoCal_Wolf

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Everything is subjective because you never get to see an alternative reality where different substitutions are made, but for me Doc was the right substitution as we were exposed down the right, but it was too late. It was clear Hwang was struggling, but by the time the change was made Liverpool had gained the impetus and psychological advantage. It is one of my key concerns with O'Neil (or any manager with such limited in-game experience) that he lacks the conviction of a seasoned manager like Lopetegui, who made changes proactively to seek to influence the game (and mostly to positive effect). Likewise, Boubacar made sense but it was pretty clear we were starting to flag a little in midfield and needed fresh legs long before the change was made. It's funny - you never know but maybe Lopetegui had a point about the squad and the reinforcements that were needed?!

Fabio was the wrong substitution. In O'Neil's defense we don't know all of the environmental possibilities as to why he went with Silva over Sasa, but the reality was his weak hold-up play was exposed and Liverpool were able to keep coming at us as a result.
Agree with what you wrote about the substitutions. Semedo needed help and the midfield was definitely tiring (I saw that in the Crystal Palace game, too). I think that he knew that Liverpool was going to come out hard for a big push to equalize so he was playing to absorb the attack and then counterattacking when Liverpool was pushed up. For that, you need some speed up top and Sasa is a lot of things, but pace-merchant he is not! In hindsight, we probably needed someone to hold up the ball more than we needed the speed...and we all know that Fabio is not very good at holding up the ball right now. Maybe the RAN injury screwed up the subs pattern a bit...

I don't think that GON screwed up the subs that much, tbh. We definitely have a drop off between Lemina-Gomes and Traore-Doyle. Wonder if we can rotate them better so that we can have a better pairing in the middle when players tire...

Once he gets up to speed with the intensity of the league, I think that Bellegarde will be immense (and probably won't need to be subbed off that often).

Anyway, I'm probably the only mixer who is not going ape**** about losing to Liverpool late in the second half - I see signs of some excellent play and quality that will see up through when our schedule lightens up a bit. I may sing a different tune if we give up a rash of goals to Luton...
 

Mile End Wanderer

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Agree with what you wrote about the substitutions. Semedo needed help and the midfield was definitely tiring (I saw that in the Crystal Palace game, too). I think that he knew that Liverpool was going to come out hard for a big push to equalize so he was playing to absorb the attack and then counterattacking when Liverpool was pushed up. For that, you need some speed up top and Sasa is a lot of things, but pace-merchant he is not! In hindsight, we probably needed someone to hold up the ball more than we needed the speed...and we all know that Fabio is not very good at holding up the ball right now. Maybe the RAN injury screwed up the subs pattern a bit...

I don't think that GON screwed up the subs that much, tbh. We definitely have a drop off between Lemina-Gomes and Traore-Doyle. Wonder if we can rotate them better so that we can have a better pairing in the middle when players tire...

Once he gets up to speed with the intensity of the league, I think that Bellegarde will be immense (and probably won't need to be subbed off that often).

Anyway, I'm probably the only mixer who is not going ape**** about losing to Liverpool late in the second half - I see signs of some excellent play and quality that will see up through when our schedule lightens up a bit. I may sing a different tune if we give up a rash of goals to Luton...
Positive signs maybe but when defensive collapses keep happening that is hugely concerning ??

Still no good at chasing a game either !!
 

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Positive signs maybe but when defensive collapses keep happening that is hugely concerning ??

Still no good at chasing a game either !!
The mental fragility of our defense is concerning—we saw it last year against Brighton, too—it’s the second or third goal where a team just seems to walk right through the middle of our box and no one seems to stop the run. It might be the coaching, but I suspect it’s the players. I’m going to start watching Kilman closely, tbh. He’s been a split second too late to react and that’s too long at the elite level—and he needs a mean streak. I wonder if Toti or Bueno bring more of that…

Edited to add: our offensive play is better and we’re a much better watch than the last two years. Need to put them away…
 

SmiffyWolf

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Maybe an option in future games would be at half time to go to a back 3 to provide extra cover if we are to sit back .

I am not seeing many positives with the way we setup mainly in the second half of games . But I am not sure we have the players to sit deep and absorb pressure for long periods.
 

DanishWolf

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That’s a fair question.
Truthfully, I’m not sure what to think at this point. Although a lot has changed, I doubt that Guo’s strategy has changed. Why would it?
Losing a coach is no reason to change plans or strategies….…you adapt, accept the setback, and move on.
But it has changed.
We went from an international manager with a large number experienced staff members, who has worked at the highest level, to an inexperinced coach, with a limited number of staffs, who wouldnt look out of place in the Championship.

Having said that, I can probably agree on the fact, that Guo's overall strategy hasnt changed, as I'm not sure whether there ever was a strategy, other than wanting Wolves to be selfsufficient.
 

Mile End Wanderer

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The mental fragility of our defense is concerning—we saw it last year against Brighton, too—it’s the second or third goal where a team just seems to walk right through the middle of our box and no one seems to stop the run. It might be the coaching, but I suspect it’s the players. I’m going to start watching Kilman closely, tbh. He’s been a split second too late to react and that’s too long at the elite level—and he needs a mean streak. I wonder if Toti or Bueno bring more of that…

Edited to add: our offensive play is better and we’re a much better watch than the last two years. Need to put them away…
Okay we maybe scoring slightly more but we are letting double the figures in at present compared to last season. Total recipe for disaster just go to a back 3/5 and contain teams and counter them with our fast players Neto, Bellegarde, Cunha, Hwang. Don’t understand the need for two defensive midfielders on the pitch in Gomes and Lemina either unless we want to play with out and out wingers they simply move the ball on to. Bellegarde can’t be expected to do it all himself. We did look so lost when he went off. Devoid of ideas

Toti offers some fight and pace but you just know Kilman won’t get dropped being captain

We can’t expect miracles from Dawson every week. Probably another few weeks before Bueno is fully fit? Quite worrying we didn’t sign another experienced PL centre half
 
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lets all have a disco

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It's not the system it's about being drilled in what you do.....we kept the most clean sheets at home in the premier league last season playing a back 4.....it's cause we was drilled under lopetugui.....we was good under Nuno with a 3 cause we was drilled to play it ....

The reality is a 3 or 4 under Gary O'Neil won't make any difference.....it's not the system it's the gaffer implenting it....
 

northnorfolkwolf

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This is the one. Thanks very much. From what I remember it's well worth a watch and I'll comment when I've seen it.
Oh dear. Just watched that half hour video with Dazzling Dave talking to the B'mouth fan, Kirk, about his memories of GON. I urge all Wolves fans to give it a watch. It is not pretty viewing. Kirk seems like a pretty fair-minded guy and not out to stir things up but be honest and straight. His final analysis was that we will be looking for a new manager by Xmas. He sees this appt for Wolves as cheap and low risk. In 37 games last season Kirk says GON showed no identity in his play, no philosophy or tactical awareness, he'd flip flop between a 4 and a 5 at the back. His formations were 'all over the place'. Players were often played out of position. He tended to over-think things based on who the opposition were. He averaged under 1 goal a game and B'mouth fans never really understood what he was trying to do or achieve. Worryingly he says that GON did not react to situations during games but tended to let things roll on. His use of subs was poor - an example was not playing Kieffer Moore up top when he had FBs on crossing the ball; he brings KM on and takes the FBs off!? He relied on 1 player, Tavenier, to basically get him out of jail on numerous occasions (Molineux being one!)
It's best to watch the video but it seems B'mouth fans never really had any idea what to expect on a Saturday. Having said that he got enough results to get them clear but as Kirk says if he was any good why would the Club have got rid of him? For me , having watched this, I'll be interested to see if GON sticks to a formation and style of play, how he reacts to situations in games i.e. use of subs and how he changes/adapts things during a match. Happy viewing!
 

The Clock

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....... but as Kirk says if he was any good why would the Club have got rid of him?
I wonder if Kirk would have liked any of these at Bournemouth?

Graham Potter
Thomas Tuchel
Maurizio Sarri
Antonio Conte
Guus Hiddink
Jose Mourinho
Rafael Benitez
Andre Villas-Boas
Carlo Ancelotti
Felipe Scolari
Claudio Ranieri

I guess not, because using his logic they are all clearly useless.
 

Northampton_wolf

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Oh dear. Just watched that half hour video with Dazzling Dave talking to the B'mouth fan, Kirk, about his memories of GON. I urge all Wolves fans to give it a watch. It is not pretty viewing. Kirk seems like a pretty fair-minded guy and not out to stir things up but be honest and straight. His final analysis was that we will be looking for a new manager by Xmas. He sees this appt for Wolves as cheap and low risk. In 37 games last season Kirk says GON showed no identity in his play, no philosophy or tactical awareness, he'd flip flop between a 4 and a 5 at the back. His formations were 'all over the place'. Players were often played out of position. He tended to over-think things based on who the opposition were. He averaged under 1 goal a game and B'mouth fans never really understood what he was trying to do or achieve. Worryingly he says that GON did not react to situations during games but tended to let things roll on. His use of subs was poor - an example was not playing Kieffer Moore up top when he had FBs on crossing the ball; he brings KM on and takes the FBs off!? He relied on 1 player, Tavenier, to basically get him out of jail on numerous occasions (Molineux being one!)
It's best to watch the video but it seems B'mouth fans never really had any idea what to expect on a Saturday. Having said that he got enough results to get them clear but as Kirk says if he was any good why would the Club have got rid of him? For me , having watched this, I'll be interested to see if GON sticks to a formation and style of play, how he reacts to situations in games i.e. use of subs and how he changes/adapts things during a match. Happy viewing!
I dont know i see an identity which is forming united liverpool similar halves

Tenacity (high amount of tackles and interceptions), ball carrying - cunha/nunes/bellegarde/ran/neto

Completely agree with though no reaction in games, and no tactical tweaks understanding
 

Wolf316

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I wonder if Kirk would have liked any of these at Bournemouth?

Graham Potter
Thomas Tuchel
Maurizio Sarri
Antonio Conte
Guus Hiddink
Jose Mourinho
Rafael Benitez
Andre Villas-Boas
Carlo Ancelotti
Felipe Scolari
Claudio Ranieri

I guess not, because using his logic they are all clearly useless.
Managers get the boot due to poor results yet O Neil kept them up and got sacked which tells you all you need to know.
 

northnorfolkwolf

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Managers get the boot due to poor results yet O Neil kept them up and got sacked which tells you all you need to know.
Watch the vid as you get a more picture of things at B'mouth under GON by someone who watched all his 37 games.
 

The Clock

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Run down of what went well and what caused is to end up sitting deep in the second half. Not as bad as people would have felt having rewatched the 90.
Thanks for that.
As I thought at time GON brought Doc on to try to deflect that threat down left (can't understand why some on here criticised it)
I suppose I'd like to know from GON why he didn't do more to find an out ball for us. He might think he hasn't got the resources. If Sasa isn't ready/fit enough his only option was the one he used - Silva. Not his sort of game. As I said in match day thread we probably should have given Costa another year. Obviously not ideal, but given how the window panned out it would have given an option for someone to hold the ball up/impose themselves for 25/25 minutes.
 

gullykular

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Thanks for that.
As I thought at time GON brought Doc on to try to deflect that threat down left (can't understand why some on here criticised it)
I suppose I'd like to know from GON why he didn't do more to find an out ball for us. He might think he hasn't got the resources. If Sasa isn't ready/fit enough his only option was the one he used - Silva. Not his sort of game. As I said in match day thread we probably should have given Costa another year. Obviously not ideal, but given how the window panned out it would have given an option for someone to hold the ball up/impose themselves for 25/25 minutes.
I think the RAN injury didn't help. Lost a sub with that for tweaking things. The ideal solution was a back five for me, so Doc for Hwang like for like was the main issue subs-wise.
 

AndyY

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"But Wolves abandoned their pursuit given the hurdles in poaching from a rival top-flight club days before the new season was due to begin."

So Edwards was firstchoice, and GON second choice? We only went for GON, because it was too difficult(expensive) to get Edwards.

An established PL club, and this is what our DOF went for. What a complete mess...
Wasn't Edwards interviewed after Lage, and supposed to have impressed? JL then became available.

When was the Luton pre-season friendly arranged? JL was supposed to have told Hobbs that he wanted to go after the Celtic game ISTR; I wonder whether they had already started looking for a replacement before then, and a friendly against Luton could have been seen as a good excuse for unofficial contact and practical assessment?
 

Barnet Wolves

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Noticed something new against Liverpool, but hard to explain what I mean!

For the last few years, we've seen our centre backs passing the ball out to the fullback. The fullback looks up the line, nothing is on, so more often than not it goes back to the centre back, across the back-line and the same happens in the other fullback position.

This was coined 'the horseshoe of death' under Nuno, but moving to a back 4 didn't really change much.

There was a new pass that has happened a few times this season, but was a lot more noticeable against Liverpool, where the centre back misses out our fullback and passes it to a midfield player occupying the space between the opposition fullback, centre back and midfield, with his back to the opposition goal. The fullback can then run on and the receiving player lays it off to him into his path when he's already at full speed attacking the opposition.

Happened a few times with Dawson bypassing a few players by playing it inside to Bellgarde, with Semedo running off him. Looks a far more effective way of attacking the flanks and Semedo got clear quite a few times in the first half by doing it.

One minor positive I suppose!
Great observation. Well done. I went back and watched the Liverpool with your comments in mind and there it was, Dawson, RAN and Kilman tried this very same pass, angled to one of our midfielders. I also noticed when this pass was successful the eventual build up play was more measured, better paced and less hectic.
 
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