Everton, surely a points deduction?

[Deak77]

The Man City situation will come down to who has the better lawyers, them or the Premier League, don't forget they've already made a Champions League ban go away. I'll believe all this 100+ breach malarkey when it actually happens!

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

The Man City situation will come down to who has the better lawyers, them or the Premier League, don't forget they've already made a Champions League ban go away. I'll believe all this 100+ breach malarkey when it actually happens!

Over 100 breaches but they have to prove them I doubt they will to be honest. The PL know it too

 

[Oh When the Wolves]

The whole situation with ffp and var has killed football

 

[JadeWolf]

The way Everton are carrying on, they ought to remember that the points deduction they’ve had this year should have happened last year, and they’d have been relegated.

 

[arctic rime]

Everton & Forest are cheats. Relegate both.

 

[wolfgar]

We don’t sound too happy with the Forests submission to the EPL according to Madeleys new article? We were mentioned in the report, with the suggestion being that we had to sell Neves in June or we would have also been in breach? Apparently this is not true and we were more concerned about being punished next season?

Perhaps we could offer Forest some advice on cutting playing costs this summer?

 

[Ned]

It’s becoming clear that the powers that be don’t want anybody to be relegated by points deductions and the legal battles that they will no doubt face as a result.

Everton should have had their points off last season, why weren’t they? They should have had 10 off, why were they reduced on appeal?

Forest should have had the same punishment as Everton, why didn’t they?

All guesswork and opinion but it looks as though they’ve measured the punishment to be seen to be acting but not really affecting anything so all this will be forgotten.

 

[OLDGOLD]

It’s becoming clear that the powers that be don’t want anybody to be relegated by points deductions and the legal battles that they will no doubt face as a result.

Everton should have had their points off last season, why weren’t they? They should have had 10 off, why were they reduced on appeal?

Forest should have had the same punishment as Everton, why didn’t they?

All guesswork and opinion but it looks as though they’ve measured the punishment to be seen to be acting but not really affecting anything so all this will be forgotten.

I think you are on the money Ned

 

[Minimalist]

While Everton have conducted themselves poorly over this whole FFP scenario, I actually don't blame them. Their lawyers, with some validity, would be able to argue there is no sense of proportionality. Forest nearly doubled Everton's breach, but were docked 6 fewer points in the first instance... because being (faux) contrite about it apparently is a more substantial consideration punishment-wise than the severity of the crime itself.

I disagree.
I think forest are actually quite hard done by due to the fact they weren’t allowed to spend as much as Everton in the same 3 year period.
Also everyone knows Everton lied about their Covid losses in order to get closer to the permitted number. Seemed like the premier league just couldn’t be bothered to argue it.

 

[OLDGOLD]

One thing is for sure, the powers that be should get a clear and obvious scale of punishment in place for the star of next season to stop the guesswork that has gone on this year. But lime sorting out VAR, they won't. Part of me thinks that it is on purpose to keep the game being talked about. No such thing as bad publicity I believe the old quote says......

 

[wolfslair]

The way Everton are carrying on, they ought to remember that the points deduction they’ve had this year should have happened last year, and they’d have been relegated.

Doesn’t fit their victim narrative, as they aren’t actually the victims of this scenario but are actually the villains……..

Almost like if they shout and wave their arms around enough people will forget they are dirty cheats!

 

[Ned]

This whole FFP/PSR thing is going to end up killing football for everybody outside the big 6/7.

Clubs our size and below are going to be condemned to never being able to improve, to never being able to challenge the supremacy for any sustained period and clubs above will get further and further away out of reach. We might as well just enjoy each game as it comes from a sporting sense hoping for those big wins, never look at the league table (avoiding relegation being our main objective) and pray for favourable cup draws as season defining events (obviously not the best example this week).

 

[Minimalist]

This whole FFP/PSR thing is going to end up killing football for everybody outside the big 6/7.

Clubs our size and below are going to be condemned to never being able to improve, to never being able to challenge the supremacy for any sustained period and clubs above will get further and further away out of reach. We might as well just enjoy each game as it comes from a sporting sense hoping for those big wins, never look at the league table (avoiding relegation being our main objective) and pray for favourable cup draws as season defining events (obviously not the best example this week).

The problem is if a club gets owners that over extend themselves and end up bankrupting the club everyone will run around crying that the powers that be shouldn’t let it happen. Really can’t have it both ways.

Well actually I’ve always took the view that owners should be able to put as much money in as they like but not ever tie any debt to the club. I think that would work? But I’m no expert on finances.
Though we’d still all complain if the whole pyramid got utterly distorted because 20 Saudi blokes bought “small” clubs and pumped stupid money in.

 

[Flea]

This whole FFP/PSR thing is going to end up killing football for everybody outside the big 6/7.

Clubs our size and below are going to be condemned to never being able to improve, to never being able to challenge the supremacy for any sustained period and clubs above will get further and further away out of reach. We might as well just enjoy each game as it comes from a sporting sense hoping for those big wins, never look at the league table (avoiding relegation being our main objective) and pray for favourable cup draws as season defining events (obviously not the best example this week).

Well,I´ve had this exact feeling since becoming a Wolves fan in the mid 70´s.
We never had a chance of winning the league title back then either.
The main goal was to avoid relegation.
Yes,we won the Milk Cup back in 1980..however,the same rub of the green we enjoyed back then would have seen us advance to the semis of FA Cup this year.

 

[WickedWolfie]

The problem is if a club gets owners that over extend themselves and end up bankrupting the club everyone will run around crying that the powers that be shouldn’t let it happen. Really can’t have it both ways.

Well actually I’ve always took the view that owners should be able to put as much money in as they like but not ever tie any debt to the club. I think that would work? But I’m no expert on finances.
Though we’d still all complain if the whole pyramid got utterly distorted because 20 Saudi blokes bought “small” clubs and pumped stupid money in.

Be careful what you wish for..... Remember our last supposed Saudi owners???

 

[Mutchy]

Well,I´ve had this exact feeling since becoming a Wolves fan in the mid 70´s.
We never had a chance of winning the league title back then either.
The main goal was to avoid relegation.
Yes,we won the Milk Cup back in 1980..however,the same rub of the green we enjoyed back then would have seen us advance to the semis of FA Cup this year.

We won the League Cup, not the Milk Cup. There was no sponsor then.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

We don’t sound too happy with the Forests submission to the EPL according to Madeleys new article? We were mentioned in the report, with the suggestion being that we had to sell Neves in June or we would have also been in breach? Apparently this is not true and we were more concerned about being punished next season?

Perhaps we could offer Forest some advice on cutting playing costs this summer?

Don't get that. I'm still confused as the outcomes are as clear as mud, but the Brennan Johnson argument is surely the same as Neves. We sold Neves in June to get through 22/23 PSR, they held onto Johnson so they failed it. I don't know how that's a defence, but it seems right to me.

 

[Ned]

The problem is if a club gets owners that over extend themselves and end up bankrupting the club everyone will run around crying that the powers that be shouldn’t let it happen. Really can’t have it both ways.

Well actually I’ve always took the view that owners should be able to put as much money in as they like but not ever tie any debt to the club. I think that would work? But I’m no expert on finances.
Though we’d still all complain if the whole pyramid got utterly distorted because 20 Saudi blokes bought “small” clubs and pumped stupid money in.

It’s a tough one because the league is being completely ruined because clubs could have bad owners who overspend. I’m not expert either but can’t an owner be forced to put a good chunk into trust for a club in the eventuality that they start going broke? I have no idea.

Regarding FFP i would honestly look at a system where owners have to pay a percentage of every £ they are over the limit to whoever is in charge but are technically ok to spend what they like. Filter the fine money down the pyramid perhaps? Anything has to be better than a closed shop.

 

[WolfLing]

This whole FFP/PSR thing is going to end up killing football for everybody outside the big 6/7.

Clubs our size and below are going to be condemned to never being able to improve, to never being able to challenge the supremacy for any sustained period and clubs above will get further and further away out of reach. We might as well just enjoy each game as it comes from a sporting sense hoping for those big wins, never look at the league table (avoiding relegation being our main objective) and pray for favourable cup draws as season defining events (obviously not the best example this week).

The only defence of the whole FFP/PSR thing, is that it was first implemented at the start of the 2011/12 season, and in the 12 seasons since then, 12 English clubs have entered administration.

In the previous 12 seasons, 38 English clubs entered administration.

It has been badged up as a way of protecting clubs from overspending, when in reality it is to keep the top table a closed shop.

But it does also appear to have worked in the regard of reducing the amount of teams who find themselves in severe difficulty.

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

Everton & Forest are cheats. Relegate both.

And while we're at it kick Man City and Chelsea out the league.

 

[WickedWolfie]

And while we're at it kick Man City and Chelsea out the league.

Proof! That little thing which still seems to be absent.... Otherwise the PL would rightly get sued for billions....

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Proof! That little thing which still seems to be absent.... Otherwise the PL would rightly get sued for billions....

But if the PL can substantiate their charges against both clubs, and defend them in the various reviews and appeals than follow, then I think expulsion from the league is definitely on the cards. The Man City charges are on a whole other scale than simple PSR breaches, and the Chelsea charge has a severe precedent.

Whether the charges will survive all the appeals is another matter, as there is a massive amount of money and reputation at risk.

 

[Jefe]

I disagree. I think forest are actually quite hard done by due to the fact they weren’t allowed to spend as much as Everton in the same 3 year period.
Also everyone knows Everton lied about their Covid losses in order to get closer to the permitted number. Seemed like the premier league just couldn’t be bothered to argue it.

I certainly agree Everton played silly buggers with their Covid losses. What you're arguing against is the reduced headroom newly promoted sides have, and I don't see a way around it within the rolling three year cycle. The alternative would be to give a newly promoted side an instant £105m loss limit, backdated for the previous two years in the Championship.

Given that the two Chump seasons would have been relatively modest spends, that would give newly promoted teams an enormous advantage over their rivals near the bottom, as they could splash a fortune in that first year and stay within the limits compared to the higher running costs for the established teams.

It would also cause a logistical nightmare for relegation and the proverbial yo-yo side. Do we retroactively strip the backdated £105m loss limit, which would instantly put the relegated side over the FFP sanction line, or let them keep it which would give them a big advantage over other Championship sides? Neither outcome is fair.

 

[Minimalist]

I certainly agree Everton played silly buggers with their Covid losses. What you're arguing against is the reduced headroom newly promoted sides have, and I don't see a way around it within the rolling three year cycle. The alternative would be to give a newly promoted side an instant £105m loss limit, backdated for the previous two years in the Championship.

Given that the two Chump seasons would have been relatively modest spends, that would give newly promoted teams an enormous advantage over their rivals near the bottom, as they could splash a fortune in that first year and stay within the limits compared to the higher running costs for the established teams.

It would also cause a logistical nightmare for relegation and the proverbial yo-yo side. Do we retroactively strip the backdated £105m loss limit, which would instantly put the relegated side over the FFP sanction line, or let them keep it which would give them a big advantage over other Championship sides? Neither outcome is fair.

Good points.
I wouldn’t be worried about a newly promoted team instantly jumping to a 105 limit. It would only really be allowing them to “catch up”. Also they would have to be very stupid to go and spend everything they could because that would then severely restrict them for the following 2 cycles.

What to allow relegated teams is more problematic; maybe just count their 3 most resent seasons outside of the premier league

 

[Wignall 3-0]

The only defence of the whole FFP/PSR thing, is that it was first implemented at the start of the 2011/12 season, and in the 12 seasons since then, 12 English clubs have entered administration.

In the previous 12 seasons, 38 English clubs entered administration.

It has been badged up as a way of protecting clubs from overspending, when in reality it is to keep the top table a closed shop.

But it does also appear to have worked in the regard of reducing the amount of teams who find themselves in severe difficulty.

But the PL will say it very much is not a closed shop. It appears that 51 teams have played in the PL since the start, with Luton Town being the most recent first timers to play there. Its highly likely there will be no first timers promoted this year, but generally a lot of teams have had their season or two in the sun. It just seems to me that its the top 6 which is the closed shop. And if the PL try to touch Man City and any of those others who appear to be above the law, they will simply resign and join a European super league.

 

[WolfLing]

But the PL will say it very much is not a closed shop. It appears that 51 teams have played in the PL since the start, with Luton Town being the most recent first timers to play there. Its highly likely there will be no first timers promoted this year, but generally a lot of teams have had their season or two in the sun. It just seems to me that its the top 6 which is the closed shop. And if the PL try to touch Man City and any of those others who appear to be above the law, they will simply resign and join a European super league.

And also 5 teams have win it in that time, including Leicester!

Top 6 is more of a closed shop as it is so difficult to break into, and stay there consistently.

Spurs are probably the best example of a team who have organically grown over time to get to that point, albeit prior to FFP. Villa, West Ham, Brighton and Newcastle probably the closest teams to achieving it now, but they could all get worse before they get better. You need a lot of luck too.

 

[WickedWolfie]

But if the PL can substantiate their charges against both clubs, and defend them in the various reviews and appeals than follow, then I think expulsion from the league is definitely on the cards. The Man City charges are on a whole other scale than simple PSR breaches, and the Chelsea charge has a severe precedent.

Whether the charges will survive all the appeals is another matter, as there is a massive amount of money and reputation at risk.

I absolutely agree with that first sentence. It was the absence of such conditionality which l was questioning.

 

[WW1963]

This whole FFP/PSR thing is going to end up killing football for everybody outside the big 6/7.

Clubs our size and below are going to be condemned to never being able to improve, to never being able to challenge the supremacy for any sustained period and clubs above will get further and further away out of reach. We might as well just enjoy each game as it comes from a sporting sense hoping for those big wins, never look at the league table (avoiding relegation being our main objective) and pray for favourable cup draws as season defining events (obviously not the best example this week).

That's our lot.

Much more to potentially and realistically hope for than 75 other clubs.

I said on a different forum, around 12 years ago, that football will increasingly become a closed shop. This was just before FFP came in. I was referring to TV revenue and worldwide commercial success for those clubs that became noticed when SKY went global with Premier League football.

Any successful club in the 90s and 00s would already have hoovered up fans from every continent whilst we were faffing about in the Championship.

Chelsea and Man City joined the SKY 4 club before FFP shut the door on everybody else. Our riches came a decade or more too late to join that club, as did Newcastle's.

The only realistic hope of ever winning regular titles will be when the 6/7 leave for a super league.

 

[Premier Quality]

Don't get that. I'm still confused as the outcomes are as clear as mud, but the Brennan Johnson argument is surely the same as Neves. We sold Neves in June to get through 22/23 PSR, they held onto Johnson so they failed it. I don't know how that's a defence, but it seems right to me.

That’s wrong isn’t it? Neves sale goes into the 23/24 period as our accounts ended in May?

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

That’s wrong isn’t it? Neves sale goes into the 23/24 period as our accounts ended in May?

Well....
That's definitely true. However there was a time when people were telling me that the PSR rules ran July to June and didn't align with our accounting period. Forest's accounts align with that, I noticed Villa are having a 13 month year to make their's the same from now on. However it seems that was wrong and the PSR rules align with each club's accounting period, so they don't all end at the same time, which seems crazy to me.

 

[Minimalist]

Well....
That's definitely true. However there was a time when people were telling me that the PSR rules ran July to June and didn't align with our accounting period. Forest's accounts align with that, I noticed Villa are having a 13 month year to make their's the same from now on. However it seems that was wrong and the PSR rules align with each club's accounting period, so they don't all end at the same time, which seems crazy to me.

Absolutely crazy if true.

Surely the logical thing to do is have everyone’s end at the same time after the season has ended (so all revenue is in) then if anyone fails they start the following season with a points deduction (which should be set out on a scale dependent on by how far it’s missed).

 

[GoldenHorseshoe]

Absolutely crazy if true.

Surely the logical thing to do is have everyone’s end at the same time after the season has ended (so all revenue is in) then if anyone fails they start the following season with a points deduction (which should be set out on a scale dependent on by how far it’s missed).

I don't see that it really matters, you gain income and make purchases within the same period. The company accounting periods probably predates the FFP or whatever it's now called.
Traditionally income would stop, or significantly reduce at the end of May and not restart until end of July.

 

[wolfgar]

Its not to say all this FFP stuff isn’t a massive mess, but I am finding listening to Everton and Forest banging on like victims of some grave injustice, is getting tiresome. Both knew the rules, and both thought nothing would really happen if they broke them. In Evertons case they actually tried it on. Other clubs have struggled sticking to these rules. We lost a manager, several players and possible signings and created all sorts of negativity and division headed into the season in order to comply. Gyokeres and Alex Scott would likely be sat here now if we were Forest?

I just think both have actually been dealt with fairly kindly here. Albeit the process has hardly been smooth sailing. Neither will go down. Both very easily could/should have. I’d have been absolutely over the moon with 4pts if I was Forest

 

[Minimalist]

I don't see that it really matters, you gain income and make purchases within the same period. The company accounting periods probably predates the FFP or whatever it's now called.
Traditionally income would stop, or significantly reduce at the end of May and not restart until end of July.

Well it seems an issue might be if you have the opportunity to sell a player before the accounting period ends.
Just synchronise it.
Also if it was sorted right at the end of a season the punishment could be applied for the following season , before it even starts, and everyone would know where they stand.

 

[SWest Wolf]

Are we hearing about more points deductions today?

 

[Black Country Wanderer]

Are we hearing about more points deductions today?

We should hear more deductions everyday in the case of Forest lol

 

[SWest Wolf]

We should hear more deductions everyday in the case of Forest lol

My brother in law is a Toffees fan, and he just messaged me stating rumours are that they might hear some news today.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Are we hearing about more points deductions today?

I could well be wrong, but I think their hearing has just concluded. For Forest it took about 2 weeks for the penalty to be announced after that. Then there's the possibility of them also appealing and that outcome has to be announced by 24th May.

 

[Very Proud (AKA Still Proud)]

just a few thoughts the whole debacle:

1. Everton and Forest both gambled and broke the rules, the Everton reduction and likely reduction on appeal are farcical. Both should be hit by a straightforward sanction - break the rules and its 10 points per season you did it.

2. FFP and now PSR are designed to protect the status quo where revenue now decides the top placings over and above ability. They need to be scrapped.

3. Surely an owner should be able to invest in their business in order to grow and compete, just like businesses do all over the world. We have to protect our national assets from extinction so surely a bond scheme of some kind is preferable so that investment income is protected and club's value is not used to accrue debt.

4. The NFL devised a way to keep it competitive, so should the Premier League. Why can't the make greater allowances for spend for promoted clubs and then those finishing in a lower position on a sliding scale, so last year's champions % spend of revenue is say 50% and those promoted 150% (dependent upon proven investment sources).

5. The Premier League is a club where the established teams would have to be turkey's voting for Christmas to get these changes in - Maybe, erm lets say, an independent regulator takes on responsibility for this framework across all leagues.

OH and I'm fed up to the back teeth of FFP, PSR, VAR and all the modern crap that has no place in football, but then I'm only a fan!

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

My brother in law is a Toffees fan, and he just messaged me stating rumours are that they might hear some news today.

Another 9 points would be beautiful forza lutonian