Everton, surely a points deduction?

[Olivergoldblack]

I hate the way the deductions can change and get added and taken away at random parts of the season.

You gotta feel sorry for the likes of Luton who have gallantly got back into the mix by working hard on the pitch, then watch your rival gain 4 points (because it will feel like they've gained points at this time of the season). Must be a massive psychological blow.

Read an article that said with the Forest and latest Everton deductions, appeals etc... might be decided AFTER the season has ended. How can you do that?, surely mocks the sporting integrity of the league. No one knows what they're playing for.

They should have fixed penalties (can't be hard to create a standard?), and when they get decided, clubs can't appeal, and the points are deducted at the start of the whenever the next season starts. At least then everyone knows where they stand from the beginning.

 

[Dubwolf71]

I’d never met one “in the wild” until very recently when, on a trip to Dublin, I got chatting about football to the bloke who runs the Leo Burdock’s chip shop in Temple Bar who, it turns out, is a Toffees fan. Nice chap. Nice chips too.

Yeah nice chips is right.

Was travelling over to the end of season game last year. In the queue getting on to the plane and the guy beside me looks at my top and says Wolves? with a smile/smirk on his face. So I asked him who he supported.

He said Everton then went on to tell me why he supported them. It was when he was brought to a Merseyside Derby years ago. I said to him "and you picked Everton? End of conversation. He was disgusted.

 

[WolfLing]

So it's 10-4 and +6 in a couple of weeks? set the precedent now at 6 points as acceptable for the misdemeanour, then hit them with the next 6. Seems like it might be a strategy.

Surely Everton must get more than Forest for an aggravated breach?

Premier League need to be very careful over the precedents they are setting here.

 

[theweave]

Rumour has it that 777 have pulled out of buying EFC and the NY Yankees owner is lined up to take them over.

Haven't 777 been loaning them huge amounts to keep them afloat? I'd imagine they'll want that back

 

[Stourport wolf]

Seen foreign Newcastle supporters abroad. Was being too polite about Villa and West Ham and letting my dislike of Everton take over. Does Wales count as abroad? I know a West Ham fan there On Everton, not sure I've ever met an Everton fan anywhere! (and I have spent some time working in Liverpool.)

I have live abroad for 33 years and like I said, I have seen a few Spanish with Liverpool shirts, Man Utd and a few young kids with Man City and 1 with Arsenal and 2 with Spurs tops, but none with Newcastle, Villa or West Ham I have commented before that my hairdresser's son went to University in Wolverhampton and eventhough he couldn’t get tickets very often, he has Wolves shirts and knows all the players
I spend time in other European countries too, the same is true. Nobody knows anything about Newcastle, Villa and West Ham.
The same would be true in the UK, How many English people do you see walking around with Atlético Madrid, or Girona shirts? Not a lot I would have thought, but plenty of Real Madrid and Barcelona.

 

[glorybox]

I have live abroad for 33 years and like I said, I have seen a few Spanish with Liverpool shirts, Man Utd and a few young kids with Man City and 1 with Arsenal and 2 with Spurs tops, but none with Newcastle, Villa or West Ham I have commented before that my hairdresser's son went to University in Wolverhampton and eventhough he couldn’t get tickets very often, he has Wolves shirts and knows all the players
I spend time in other European countries too, the same is true. Nobody knows anything about Newcastle, Villa and West Ham.
The same would be true in the UK, How many English people do you see walking around with Atlético Madrid, or Girona shirts? Not a lot I would have thought, but plenty of Real Madrid and Barcelona.

I like how you've effectively compared us to Real Madrid there. Good lad.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Surely Everton must get more than Forest for an aggravated breach?

Premier League need to be very careful over the precedents they are setting here.

Well the whole thing has gone beyond any logical discussion for me. However what I'd say is that to think it through, this case relates to the season ending June 22. They admitted £7.9m but contested another £17m or so. The end of that process was Oct 23 effectively, as the appeal after that, as I understand it, was on the size of the deduction, not the size of the breach (maybe). So if they believed they were correct, then if the breach in the period ending June 23 is less than £17m then they could possible argue that they are being punished twice for the same offence, as they only had a judgement on that after the end of the second accounting period.

That all might be crap though (factually, legally or morally).

 

[Contrarian]

I have live abroad for 33 years and like I said, I have seen a few Spanish with Liverpool shirts, Man Utd and a few young kids with Man City and 1 with Arsenal and 2 with Spurs tops, but none with Newcastle, Villa or West Ham I have commented before that my hairdresser's son went to University in Wolverhampton and eventhough he couldn’t get tickets very often, he has Wolves shirts and knows all the players
I spend time in other European countries too, the same is true. Nobody knows anything about Newcastle, Villa and West Ham.
The same would be true in the UK, How many English people do you see walking around with Atlético Madrid, or Girona shirts? Not a lot I would have thought, but plenty of Real Madrid and Barcelona.

That's when you know you are one of the big clubs - when you start seeing foreign supporters of your club abroad. Takes decades of finishing in and around the top 6 and winning a few trophies. It's where most of their income comes from and why they always hang aroumnd the top end. It's not ticket sales. It's more than just finishing 6th or 5th or even doing the miracle of winning it, like Leicester. It's decade after decade competing at the top. And is why I never believed Fosun could have us in the the "Big 7" within 10 years. Because it takes more than 10 years for anyone to join that club. A couple of Premier League titles , an FA Cup win or three and a Champions League final or two... doing that in 10 years might gain us a few fans abroad. As has been pointed out several times, Hwang and Raul as individuals have more foreign fans than we do as a club!

 

[wolfslair]

I’d never met one “in the wild” until very recently when, on a trip to Dublin, I got chatting about football to the bloke who runs the Leo Burdock’s chip shop in Temple Bar who, it turns out, is a Toffees fan. Nice chap. Nice chips too.

I’d never met one “in the wild” until very recently when, on a trip to Dublin, I got chatting about football to the bloke who runs the Leo Burdock’s chip shop in Temple Bar who, it turns out, is a Toffees fan. Nice chap. Nice chips too.

They have chips in both shoulders don’t they?

Haha

 

[Ned]

Hmmm… 6 points really doesn’t seem like a massive deterrent for teams in and around, say, 8th to 14th.

If we had broken the rules and signed a first team starting striker, would that have given us more than 6 points? Depending on his quality I reckon it would have.

 

[Sedgley Gold N Black]

Hmmm… 6 points really doesn’t seem like a massive deterrent for teams in and around, say, 8th to 14th.

If we had broken the rules and signed a first team starting striker, would that have given us more than 6 points? Depending on his quality I reckon it would have.

Not sure if you'd actually looked but based on last season that is spot on, those who'd have suffered a material change:

• City would have lost the title
• Newcastle would have missed out on CL
• Brighton would have missed out on Europe
• Villa would have missed out on Europe
• Relegation for everyone below West Ham (who'd have relied upon GD) in 14th

Even we'd have stayed up last season with -6 which is remarkable from where we were at one point!

 

[Corporate Wolf]

Surely Everton must get more than Forest for an aggravated breach?

Premier League need to be very careful over the precedents they are setting here.

Absolutely spot on.
Inconsistencies are just going to make themselves look even more incompetent than what they currently are.
They've played their part in making VAR a standing joke and now PSR is likely to be viewed in the same way.

 

[Chisels_n_ommers]

Not sure if you'd actually looked but based on last season that is spot on, those who'd have suffered a material change:

• City would have lost the title
• Newcastle would have missed out on CL
• Brighton would have missed out on Europe
• Villa would have missed out on Europe
• Relegation for everyone below West Ham (who'd have relied upon GD) in 14th

Even we'd have stayed up last season with -6 which is remarkable from where we were at one point!

It should work on a percentage of the points they got when they breached.

If it's set at say 15% instead of 6 points for those breaches, then a team who got 80 points would have a 12 point penalty.

A team who got 40 points would get a 6 point penalty...and so on.

It should be a sliding percentage scale not a fixed points scale, for the reasons you point out

 

[Minimalist]

Hmmm… 6 points really doesn’t seem like a massive deterrent for teams in and around, say, 8th to 14th.

If we had broken the rules and signed a first team starting striker, would that have given us more than 6 points? Depending on his quality I reckon it would have.

Yeah, or if Newcastle had bought Mbappe, Kane, Bellingham and van dyke for a billion that’s worth more than 6 points!

And if Everton get their way a team spending a billion in one summer would only get punished once, not the 3 times the spend should be calculated into.

 

[GV Wolf]

4 points given back and another 6 taken away in a month.

Lovely.

Yep and it will probably get more interesting if Everton and forest get points reduction before the end of the season, find themselves relegated, as their appeals would most likely be heard after the season has finished. So the clubs they replace in the relegation zone (ie Burnley and Luton) won’t know if they’re staying up or being relegated!

 

[kidder_wolf_II]

It should work on a percentage of the points they got when they breached.

If it's set at say 15% instead of 6 points for those breaches, then a team who got 80 points would have a 12 point penalty.

A team who got 40 points would get a 6 point penalty...and so on.

It should be a sliding percentage scale not a fixed points scale, for the reasons you point out

The most worrying part about this post is the fact a random poster on an internet forum has better ideas than those running our game lol

 

[WolfLing]

It should work on a percentage of the points they got when they breached.

If it's set at say 15% instead of 6 points for those breaches, then a team who got 80 points would have a 12 point penalty.

A team who got 40 points would get a 6 point penalty...and so on.

It should be a sliding percentage scale not a fixed points scale, for the reasons you point out

1% point reduction for every 1% a club is over the limit.

That way, it's relative to both a club's wealth and a club's accumulated points total.

 

[Boss Hogg]

Here’s an idea, if you break the profit & sustainability rules you get relegated. Full stop.

 

[Lincoln-Wolves86]

It’s reported that the Premier League were working with Everton for a few years to get them to sort their books. Yet they still failed for 2 years.
If it gets to a stage whereby a club are showing signs of loss why don’t the Premier League just impose a transfer embargo?

That way the conversation of “will breaching PSR be worth 6 points” might not be needed?

 

[Sedgley Gold N Black]

It should work on a percentage of the points they got when they breached.

If it's set at say 15% instead of 6 points for those breaches, then a team who got 80 points would have a 12 point penalty.

A team who got 40 points would get a 6 point penalty...and so on.

It should be a sliding percentage scale not a fixed points scale, for the reasons you point out

Excellent idea, given all the debate on talksport and other media about this subject none have proposed as an effective solution.

 

[Sedgley Gold N Black]

It’s reported that the Premier League were working with Everton for a few years to get them to sort their books. Yet they still failed for 2 years.
If it gets to a stage whereby a club are showing signs of loss why don’t the Premier League just impose a transfer embargo?

That way the conversation of “will breaching PSR be worth 6 points” might not be needed?

IIRC this was part of the PL involvement with Everton, I'm sure there was some sort of one in one out type agreement but in some cases Everton just ignored the advice.

Player trading is probably the main avenue for how a club would avoid the breach (as we have) plus if you'd have applied that, we'd have likely ended up with an embargo in the winter (and/or the summer) which would have ended up with us either getting relegated, breaching or both.

 

[sc91]

I have live abroad for 33 years and like I said, I have seen a few Spanish with Liverpool shirts, Man Utd and a few young kids with Man City and 1 with Arsenal and 2 with Spurs tops, but none with Newcastle, Villa or West Ham I have commented before that my hairdresser's son went to University in Wolverhampton and eventhough he couldn’t get tickets very often, he has Wolves shirts and knows all the players
I spend time in other European countries too, the same is true. Nobody knows anything about Newcastle, Villa and West Ham.
The same would be true in the UK, How many English people do you see walking around with Atlético Madrid, or Girona shirts? Not a lot I would have thought, but plenty of Real Madrid and Barcelona.

There's a large Atletico Madrid support club here in London tbf. My old university mate was a member, went to as many games as he could with them.

However, your are correct in all fairness, you do find pocket of supporters of other leagues around the city, like quite a few of my mates growing up would be in Benfica or Porto shirts because of their parents, irony being they're all Arsenal season ticket holders now.

 

[Lincoln-Wolves86]

IIRC this was part of the PL involvement with Everton, I'm sure there was some sort of one in one out type agreement but in some cases Everton just ignored the advice.

Player trading is probably the main avenue for how a club would avoid the breach (as we have) plus if you'd have applied that, we'd have likely ended up with an embargo in the winter (and/or the summer) which would have ended up with us either getting relegated, breaching or both.

Im not so sure. If you had a clear plan and could evidence to the premier league that you expect to sell Nunes for x amount thrn the Premier league should be satisfied you have things in order? If you then don’t actually sell the player and record a loss, then you’ve mislead the PL and will rightly be punished?

 

[TheWolfFromWolverhampton]

Does anyone know how likely it is Everton will get their 10 points back?

 

[Monketron]

Premier League clubs set to back Uefa-style framework of financial rules

Premier League clubs will meet on Thursday to discuss ditching existing profitability and sustainability rules and adopting a Uefa-style framework of financial rules

www.theguardian.com

Looks like the Premier League will be in step with UEFA's financial rules, which kinda makes sense.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Premier League clubs set to back Uefa-style framework of financial rules

Premier League clubs will meet on Thursday to discuss ditching existing profitability and sustainability rules and adopting a Uefa-style framework of financial rules

www.theguardian.com

Looks like the Premier League will be in step with UEFA's financial rules, which kinda makes sense.

It does make sense considering the number of clubs who must also abide by UEFA’s rules. Unfortunately it will give another large boost / advantage to the bigger clubs, whose turnover dwarfs that of the majority of the league, and especially the newly promoted clubs.

It would be interesting to see someone compare the how clubs would have fared with an 85% turnover rule compared to the current PSR rules.

 

[Fenrir_]

It does make sense considering the number of clubs who must also abide by UEFA’s rules. Unfortunately it will give another large boost / advantage to the bigger clubs, whose turnover dwarfs that of the majority of the league, and especially the newly promoted clubs.

It would be interesting to see someone compare the how clubs would have fared with an 85% turnover rule compared to the current PSR rules.

I'd imagine most would be screwed, because right now they can lose money and still be fine

I'd also imagine that getting on the right side of this rule played a part in our lack of activity in January. If it gets us a step or two ahead of a lot of our rivals in terms of financial rules it'll be well worth it in the end

 

[Sussex Wolf]

I'd imagine most would be screwed, because right now they can lose money and still be fine

I'd also imagine that getting on the right side of this rule played a part in our lack of activity in January. If it gets us a step or two ahead of a lot of our rivals in terms of financial rules it'll be well worth it in the end

Not exactly. Existing PL PSR rules exclude tv rights from the income side of the calculation. In the new UEFA FFP model, tv rights are included within “football related income”. Given the size of tv income in the PL, that would make a significant difference.

Football Benchmark - Overview of the new UEFA Financial Fair Play Regulations

www.footballbenchmark.com

 

[Fenrir_]

Not exactly. Existing PL PSR rules exclude tv rights from the income side of the calculation. In the new UEFA FFP model, tv rights are included within “football related income”. Given the size of tv income in the PL, that would make a significant difference.


View attachment 40837

Football Benchmark - Overview of the new UEFA Financial Fair Play Regulations

www.footballbenchmark.com

That has to be specific rights if TV rights are excluded, there's no way they exclude PL TV money from the calculations, everyone would be failing PSR by a country mile if you took the £130m a season or whatever it is away from them

 

[RosehillWolf]

6 points is no punishment at all really is it ? If Everton stay up , how exactly have they been punished ??

 

[Very Proud (AKA Still Proud)]

If 6 points is the benchmark should they get 6 plus another 6 plus another 2 or 3 for persistent offending.

In any other walk of life if you repeat offend the punishment becomes stronger.

 

[Northampton_wolf]

If 6 points is the benchmark should they get 6 plus another 6 plus another 2 or 3 for persistent offending.

In any other walk of life if you repeat offend the punishment becomes stronger.

I expect they end up total 12 or 10

 

[Ned]

6 points is no punishment at all really is it ? If Everton stay up , how exactly have they been punished ??

This was the aim of it all. 10 points reduced to 6 in possibly the easiest season in a decade to stay in the league. The PL have been seen to have acted whilst keeping Everton in the top flight at the expense of (probably) little old Luton.

 

[Stourport wolf]

That's when you know you are one of the big clubs - when you start seeing foreign supporters of your club abroad. Takes decades of finishing in and around the top 6 and winning a few trophies. It's where most of their income comes from and why they always hang aroumnd the top end. It's not ticket sales. It's more than just finishing 6th or 5th or even doing the miracle of winning it, like Leicester. It's decade after decade competing at the top. And is why I never believed Fosun could have us in the the "Big 7" within 10 years. Because it takes more than 10 years for anyone to join that club. A couple of Premier League titles , an FA Cup win or three and a Champions League final or two... doing that in 10 years might gain us a few fans abroad. As has been pointed out several times, Hwang and Raul as individuals have more foreign fans than we do as a club!

A lot of good points you make there. I would add, supporting a football club, is not like supporting a player. Those type of fans support the player for a few years and go on to another player, when he retires or things go badly. Supporting a player isn't about loyalty, in most cases, it isn't like supporting a club. That club is everything to you, you can't change it.
I think doing well in European competitions is the key, to international fan base.
One thing I have talked about before, is our iconic badge. I can walk down any road abroad, with any clothing item with the Wolf's head and somebody will shout out Wolves, or Wolverhampton. There are very few clubs that have such an iconic, distinguishable and recognisable club badge as we do.

 

[Ginger Chimp]

Does anyone know how likely it is Everton will get their 10 points back?

The 10 point deduction has already been reduced to six following an appeal. Therefore, they've got four points back (only)

Everton are also facing new charges which might result in a new points deduction but we don't know what this is yet and will not find out until towards the end of the season.

So, they are NOT getting their 10 points back.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

If they go straight to UEFA rules for 24/25 then surely there are clubs who will have to sell just to survive. Chelsea are supposed to be right in it for the PL, imagine their amortisation and wages bill with no European football to boost revenue, surely they'd be miles off hitting 80%?

 

[glorybox]

Can’t be long now surely…

Aston Villa report almost £120m losses in one season

Aston Villa report a loss of £119.6m in their latest accounts up to 31 May 2023.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[WickedWolfie]

Surely Everton must get more than Forest for an aggravated breach?

Premier League need to be very careful over the precedents they are setting here.

The issue is that the PL doesn't set the punishment, the independent panel does. At the very least use the same panel to ensure some consistency.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

The issue is that the PL doesn't set the punishment, the independent panel does. At the very least use the same panel to ensure some consistency.

Wouldn't be needed so much if they'd actually set some sentencing guidelines though! You'll know better than me of course, but I always get the impression that the likes of Mr David Philips KC like to have half a dozen jobs on the go, raking in 6 figures each, one day a fortnight on each one maybe that sort of thing. Hence why everything takes forever!

 

[WickedWolfie]

Wouldn't be needed so much if they'd actually set some sentencing guidelines though! You'll know better than me of course, but I always get the impression that the likes of Mr David Philips KC like to have half a dozen jobs on the go, raking in 6 figures each, one day a fortnight on each one maybe that sort of thing. Hence why everything takes forever!

Do you know how much a top KC charges? I seriously doubt that the PL would want to pay the £750+/hour necessary to have one solely devoted to their panel..... I also suspect that the independence of such a KC would be questioned.