Everton, surely a points deduction?

[maws]

I love consistency in the premier League.

The other stands were emptying, but their main home end, Gladys Street end was definitely mostly full. The South Bank would not be that full

 

[Southdownswolf]

The other stands were emptying, but their main home end, Gladys Street end was definitely mostly full. The South Bank would not be that full

Looks as though it was emptying to me..

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

View attachment 38656

Looks as though it was emptying to me..

That's the Park End though isn't it? Typical people who deliberately sit by the away fans to take the mickey and then leave if they're losing. Couldn't believe how many walked out by us at Sheff U when we equalised!

 

[maws]

View attachment 38656

Looks as though it was emptying to me..

That’s not the Gladys Street end

 

[Watfordfc]

They all seem to think Chelsea and Man C have got away with it despite no verdict being handed out yet .

Maybe they ought to just wait and see ?

Everton should have enough to stay up.

 

[Frank Lincoln]

They all seem to think Chelsea and Man C have got away with it despite no verdict being handed out yet .

Maybe they ought to just wait and see ?

Everton should have enough to stay up.

Agreed. Even with the points deduction, I think Everton should stay up. Though they need to take their chances, something they didn’t do today against Manchester United.

 

[surreywolf]

The other stands were emptying, but their main home end, Gladys Street end was definitely mostly full. The South Bank would not be that full

nonsense, please look again - loads left….. And it’s Gwladys Street

Goodison Park ‘atmosphere’ is a myth. They boo louder than they support their team. More often than not you can hear a pin drop

South Bank is every bit as good and often better

Plus ONeill got upset then focused on getting his team to play football. Everton forgot to play football today - or is that Dyche can’t

Everton have been a fine club over the years - the current crop is a pale shadow these days, from boardroom to the team to the stands

 

[bully9]

The other stands were emptying, but their main home end, Gladys Street end was definitely mostly full. The South Bank would not be that full

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

They now face

Forest away
Newcastle home
Chelsea home
Burnley away
Spurs away
Man City home
Wolves away

Here is hoping for 7 losses for them.

 

[maws]

nonsense, please look again - loads left….. And it’s Gwladys Street

Goodison Park ‘atmosphere’ is a myth. They boo louder than they support their team. More often than not you can hear a pin drop

South Bank is every bit as good and often better

Plus ONeill got upset then focused on getting his team to play football. Everton forgot to play football today - or is that Dyche can’t

Everton have been a fine club over the years - the current crop is a pale shadow these days, from boardroom to the team to the stands

It’s not, look at the stewards lying down that’s at the away fans end. I was watching and saw the Gladys Street well populated

I didn’t say anything about a great atmosphere! I just said molineux would be empty, maybe it’s an unedifying fact. I know as I never leave early, I was one of a few thousand still in after 90 mins in that 5-1 loss to the ****!

 

[DanishWolf]

The fact they don't just own up to this and accept that they get fairly punished for breaking the rules makes me want to see them lose even more.
Sure the penalty can be discussed. You'd clubs literally trying to destroy the league through their breakaway attempt and they didn't get a points deduction yet Everton get one.
Different crimes I know, yet I think its fair to ask whether the big 6 clubs would be hit as severely.
But they did commit wrong, and it would be fine if their fans admitted that and directed their anger at their incompetent board rather than the PL.

 

[wolfslair]

Agreed. Even with the points deduction, I think Everton should stay up. Though they need to take their chances, something they didn’t do today against Manchester United.

Or against us or fulham…..

Two other games they were by far the better team in terms of using the ball to create chances.

But not scoring despite creating many chances is an issue for most of the league.

 

[NottsWolves]

The fact they don't just own up to this and accept that they get fairly punished for breaking the rules makes me want to see them lose even more.
Sure the penalty can be discussed. You'd clubs literally trying to destroy the league through their breakaway attempt and they didn't get a points deduction yet Everton get one.
Different crimes I know, yet I think its fair to ask whether the big 6 clubs would be hit as severely.
But they did commit wrong, and it would be fine if their fans admitted that and directed their anger at their incompetent board rather than the PL.

The issue regarding the big six breakaway getting no punishment was because there were no rules in place about it.

There is now and I believe it’s a 30 point deduction.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

It’s not, look at the stewards lying down that’s at the away fans end. I was watching and saw the Gladys Street well populated

I didn’t say anything about a great atmosphere! I just said molineux would be empty, maybe it’s an unedifying fact. I know as I never leave early, I was one of a few thousand still in after 90 mins in that 5-1 loss to the ****!

I read it that way, but when I was about to reply I realised he wasn't correcting which end it was, just your spelling as in 'it's Gwladys not Gladys'. As you say it's definitely not that end though, which was more the point!

 

[fleck1]

Surely if this gets overturned its the beginning of the end of financial fair play. More and more people in football calling it disproportionate and unfair, the MPs throwing their few pennies worth in. If they start throwing fines around everything just becomes fair game, sporting sanctions are the only deterrent if they are serious.
My feeling has always been as soon as they want to take on one of the big boys, they will throw their money around and pull FFP apart in the courts.

 

[DanishWolf]

The issue regarding the big six breakaway getting no punishment was because there were no rules in place about it.

There is now and I believe it’s a 30 point deduction.

Fair point..

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Surely if this gets overturned its the beginning of the end of financial fair play. More and more people in football calling it disproportionate and unfair, the MPs throwing their few pennies worth in. If they start throwing fines around everything just becomes fair game, sporting sanctions are the only deterrent if they are serious.
My feeling has always been as soon as they want to take on one of the big boys, they will throw their money around and pull FFP apart in the courts.

Are there more and more people though? Dyche claimed people were shocked, but nobody who was paying attention should have even been surprised. A local MP or Andy Burnham (STH) raising concerns about the process is hardly a sign that most people think it's unjust, nor is a bunch of ex-players. Dyche's biggest problem for me (assuming he isn't just being disingenuous) is that he basically said 'I don't really know what happened, but I trust what the club is telling me'. Well guess what Sean - they lie, that's why they got found guilty in the first place, they might have got away with an accidental error, but they tried to dodge round the rules by cheating. Even then they admit they broke the rules. They do have a fair point about the lack of clarity on the sanctions, but you're completely correct, a financial penalty for breaking the rules would be ridiculous. If they've got any sense, they'll move on, be grateful that they got a deduction in a season with such weak teams at the bottom of the league and get their takeover sorted (not that the new owners seem any better!).

 

[WV10Wolf]

My feeling has always been as soon as they want to take on one of the big boys, they will throw their money around and pull FFP apart in the courts.

They’ve not gone after one of the big boys, they’ve gone after Everton, a clubs that’s done next to nothing since Howard Kendall left 30 odd years ago.

Their fans are either too thick to understand why they’ve been punished or just unwilling to understand why. The whataboutry is frankly pathetic, and after a fortnight it’s starting to grate. You don’t need to be a member of MENSA to realise it’s going to take longer to investigate multiple rule breaches against clubs unwilling to co-operate than a single case involving a club that’s been dialogue with the league with regards to the issue for 2 seasons.

That stunt they did yesterday, 35,000+ flyers with the premier league logo and the word corrupt. Pathetic. They league should take another 10 points off them for bringing the league into disrepute.

 

[wwbug]

Could this be the end of FFP. ?
Is it worth the cost and time to enforce. May be it’s unenforceable .
Sometimes it looks like wresting with fog.

 

[wolfslair]

They’ve not gone after one of the big boys, they’ve gone after Everton, a clubs that’s done next to nothing since Howard Kendall left 30 odd years ago.

Their fans are either too thick to understand why they’ve been punished or just unwilling to understand why. The whataboutry is frankly pathetic, and after a fortnight it’s starting to grate. You don’t need to be a member of MENSA to realise it’s going to take longer to investigate multiple rule breaches against clubs unwilling to co-operate than a single case involving a club that’s been dialogue with the league with regards to the issue for 2 seasons.

That stunt they did yesterday, 35,000+ flyers with the premier league logo and the word corrupt. Pathetic. They league should take another 10 points off them for bringing the league into disrepute.

I would say they are too thick and the cultural issue of scousers thinking everyone hates them and they are oppressed isn’t helping matters as the chip in both shoulders makes it like reasoning with a baby…..

They cheated the system and only crap recruitment stopped this being a tactic that flung them up the league.

But it still had a massive impact as they should have gone down for multiple years.

It is so funny seeing them play the victims when their club is the bad guy and screwed over multiple clubs and cost people at those clubs their jobs due to the lost revenue……

Also shows their massive lack of morals and emotional intelligence, as if they were one of the other sides affected and sent to relegation by these actions they would be demanding justice!!!!

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

I would say they are too thick and the cultural issue of scousers thinking everyone hates them and they are oppressed isn’t helping matters as the chip in both shoulders makes it like reasoning with a baby…..

They cheated the system and only crap recruitment stopped this being a tactic that flung them up the league.

But it still had a massive impact as they should have gone down for multiple years.

It is so funny seeing them play the victims when their club is the bad guy and screwed over multiple clubs and cost people at those clubs their jobs due to the lost revenue……

Also shows their massive lack of morals and emotional intelligence, as if they were one of the other sides affected and sent to relegation by these actions they would be demanding justice!!!!

I'd say they've reacted pretty much the same way that any fan base would. I mean there's all the usual anti-scouse rhetoric on here interleaved with people who genuinely believe the PGMOL are part of a conspiracy against us.

 

[Ned]

I don't know what has gone on with Everton as a club with this. Almost every supporter of every other club seems to know they've broken the rules and to what extent; the 10 point penalty surprised nobody.

Either the club have gaslit the entire fanbase or they know something we all don't - both are plausible.

 

[wolfslair]

I'd say they've reacted pretty much the same way that any fan base would. I mean there's all the usual anti-scouse rhetoric on here interleaved with people who genuinely believe the PGMOL are part of a conspiracy against us.

You recon?

I think most of us would have accepted we cheated the system and were punished for doing so.

I don’t think there is a conspiracy against us. but I do think there is an unconscious bias with some of the referees when it comes to some teams getting bad calls repeatedly and the top 6 getting more of a benefit of the doubt.

Look at the Man Utd pen last night, that was a clear pen in real time, how it was missed was bad….. but the player fouled has a history of diving and I think that coloured the refs thinking and swayed him for it to be a dive.

Most scousers don’t help the opinions of many with the booing of the anthem and Prince William at Wembley and the pathetic “scouse not English” crap they keep spouting as a city……

 

[fleck1]

They’ve not gone after one of the big boys, they’ve gone after Everton, a clubs that’s done next to nothing since Howard Kendall left 30 odd years ago.

Their fans are either too thick to understand why they’ve been punished or just unwilling to understand why. The whataboutry is frankly pathetic, and after a fortnight it’s starting to grate. You don’t need to be a member of MENSA to realise it’s going to take longer to investigate multiple rule breaches against clubs unwilling to co-operate than a single case involving a club that’s been dialogue with the league with regards to the issue for 2 seasons.

That stunt they did yesterday, 35,000+ flyers with the premier league logo and the word corrupt. Pathetic. They league should take another 10 points off them for bringing the league into disrepute.

No but with Cities 115 charges being investigated and Chelsea in the mix as well they've set a marker that I don't think they have the balls to back up. Obviously that many charges could take years to go through, we are all guessing at the ins and outs, loopholes and the complexities of FFP but you'd imagine out of that many they are guilty of something. Everton without a pot to **** is one thing, but the Qataris and their bottomless pit of money is something for me the authorities are too spineless to tackle.

 

[WV10Wolf]

No but with Cities 115 charges being investigated and Chelsea in the mix as well they've set a marker that I don't think they have the balls to back up. Obviously that many charges could take years to go through, we are all guessing at the ins and outs, loopholes and the complexities of FFP but you'd imagine out of that many they are guilty of something. Everton without a pot to **** is one thing, but the Qataris and their bottomless pit of money is something for me the authorities are too spineless to tackle.

I think you’re doing the PL a disservice there. If Man City are found guilty to have consistently broken FFP and attempted to cover it up, The likes of Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs, Newcastle will be putting immense pressure on the PL to take the appropriate action.

Everton have had 10 points deducted and they cheated a couple of yo-yo clubs out of an extra season in the PL. City would have cheated their way to titles, cups and stopped about a dozen teams from their rightful European spots.

 

[lobodelsur]

We sing every week lately about the premier league being corrupt and will never get fined for that

I'd hold your horses on that. If these corruption chants continue to spread the PL will likely take some action, if only to protect their TV market.

 

[WickedWolfie]

I'd hold your horses on that. If these corruption chants continue to spread the PL will likely take some action, if only to protect their TV market.

I wish them luck with that one. Racist, sexist or homophobic chants are illegal. Questioning the integrity of their competition certainly is not. They may, of course, try to change the PL ground rules for next season (you can't change a contract part-way through other than by agreement without a potential world of legal hurt). Breaching those could cost individual fans their STs or memberships.....

 

[Ercall Wolves]

I'd hold your horses on that. If these corruption chants continue to spread the PL will likely take some action, if only to protect their TV market.

Not a chance that will happen

 

[clivewolves]

Andy Burnham was just on Talksport. I only heard the last couple of minutes so I'm not sure of the context but he seemed to be asking for leniency for Everton because they have a shiny new stadium being built that will enhance the Premier League.

So a new stadium that will generate millions more in revenue for them to spend is a reason to be lenient? Corruption they say.

 

[WolfLing]

I don't know what has gone on with Everton as a club with this. Almost every supporter of every other club seems to know they've broken the rules and to what extent; the 10 point penalty surprised nobody.

Either the club have gaslit the entire fanbase or they know something we all don't - both are plausible.

My take on it is this.

Everton were massively over the allowable £105m losses limit.

£139.9m in 19/20
£121.3m loss in 20/21
£44.7m loss in 21/22

Total losses of £305.9m over 3 seasons (limit of £105m) and a rolling 3 year losses of £101.96m per season (limit of £35m per season).

This is off the back of another loss of £111.8m in 18/19.

For 3 seasons in a row between 18/19 and 20/21, their total losses per season were more than the 3 season rolling limit. Yes, some of this would have been genuinely allowable for Covid, but even then the claim they made for allowable expenses was about 3 times the amount every other club claimed.

They worked with the PL to try and discount ridiculous, pie in the sky things, to bring their rolling losses down.

They originally had their figure at a rolling 3 year £87m for the 3 season ending in 21/22, meaning the losses they were trying to discount totaled £218.9m.

An independent panel then found that the actual figure was £124.5m, which Everton accepted.

The panel probably just added on the easy, low-hanging fruit that it was impossible for Everton to argue against.

If they'd have gone through the full process of adding back on everything Everton had discounted, it probably would have been an even more drawn out process than it already was. So they just did the easy stuff, got Everton to agree with it, then dished out the punishment.

It's clear to everyone else that they were miles over the allowable losses and had been for some time. Any investigations in either of the two previous seasons would probably have found the same.

But because the £124.5m figure is the one used in the reports, that's the figure Everton fans are clinging to.

"We were 'only' £19.5m over the limit, how can the punishment be so unfair?!!!"

No, you've been cooking the books for ages and were way over the losses limits for a number of seasons, but the time it would have taken to prove that would have meant you'd have been facing legal challenges from a lot more clubs, over multiple seasons. Proving the £19.5m breach was easy.

So take your punishment on the chin and count yourselves lucky that it was done quicker than you were trying to make it, and only a couple of clubs are suing you.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

My take on it is this.

Everton were massively over the allowable £105m losses limit.

£139.9m in 19/20
£121.3m loss in 20/21
£44.7m loss in 21/22

Total losses of £305.9m over 3 seasons (limit of £105m) and a rolling 3 year losses of £101.96m per season (limit of £35m per season).

This is off the back of another loss of £111.8m in 18/19.

For 3 seasons in a row between 18/19 and 20/21, their total losses per season were more than the 3 season rolling limit. Yes, some of this would have been genuinely allowable for Covid, but even then the claim they made for allowable expenses was about 3 times the amount every other club claimed.

They worked with the PL to try and discount ridiculous, pie in the sky things, to bring their rolling losses down.

They originally had their figure at a rolling 3 year £87m for the 3 season ending in 21/22, meaning the losses they were trying to discount totaled £218.9m.

An independent panel then found that the actual figure was £124.5m, which Everton accepted.

The panel probably just added on the easy, low-hanging fruit that it was impossible for Everton to argue against.

If they'd have gone through the full process of adding back on everything Everton had discounted, it probably would have been an even more drawn out process than it already was. So they just did the easy stuff, got Everton to agree with it, then dished out the punishment.

It's clear to everyone else that they were miles over the allowable losses and had been for some time. Any investigations in either of the two previous seasons would probably have found the same.

But because the £124.5m figure is the one used in the reports, that's the figure Everton fans are clinging to.

"We were 'only' £19.5m over the limit, how can the punishment be so unfair?!!!"

No, you've been cooking the books for ages and were way over the losses limits for a number of seasons, but the time it would have taken to prove that would have meant you'd have been facing legal challenges from a lot more clubs, over multiple seasons. Proving the £19.5m breach was easy.

So take your punishment on the chin and count yourselves lucky that it was done quicker than you were trying to make it, and only a couple of clubs are suing you.

Bit surprised by your take on this, given you're the epitome of well-researched and thought through posts.

There are two key issues for me.

First the losses you quote are the entire statement for the period and some of those losses are not accountable for FFP, regardless of the covid factor. I don't think anyone is in a better position to know what the reasonable figure is more than the panel, and even Everton admit a breach, so it's best to just accept the £19.5m given rather than try to claim that's not a fair representation.

Second the failure of the PL to quantify the sanctions in the original problem is a very poor oversight. Coming up with a guide of 6pt+1 pt per £5m after the case went to the panel is lack of due process and I think the likes of Burnham are mostly pointing to that.

Having said that, all along I've said a financial penalty is ridiculous and I do feel that something around the points deduction given is correct. As I've said before though, I think our fan base would have reacted quite similarly and I get a bit wound up by the criticisms that start with a hatred of all things scouse (not from a sensible chap like you of course).

 

[WolfLing]

Bit surprised by your take on this, given you're the epitome of well-researched and thought through posts.

There are two key issues for me.

First the losses you quote are the entire statement for the period and some of those losses are not accountable for FFP, regardless of the covid factor. I don't think anyone is in a better position to know what the reasonable figure is more than the panel, and even Everton admit a breach, so it's best to just accept the £19.5m given rather than try to claim that's not a fair representation.

Second the failure of the PL to quantify the sanctions in the original problem is a very poor oversight. Coming up with a guide of 6pt+1 pt per £5m after the case went to the panel is lack of due process and I think the likes of Burnham are mostly pointing to that.

Having said that, all along I've said a financial penalty is ridiculous and I do feel that something around the points deduction given is correct. As I've said before though, I think our fan base would have reacted quite similarly and I get a bit wound up by the criticisms that start with a hatred of all things scouse (not from a sensible chap like you of course).

Just my opinion more than anything. There's no logical way Everton's losses were only £19.5m above the limit, and similarly there's no logical explanation for the points deduction for spending too much being more than that for going in administration.

Like you say, probably best that everyone just accepts it.

It's not really about scousers for me, I just don't like cheats.

 

[Lupus]

Will be interesting to see whats comes of this.

Newcastle fail to stop seized documents being used in HMRC tax scandal investigation

The documents were seized in April 2017 and form part of a civil investigation into allegations of 'systematic abuse' of the tax system

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Will be interesting to see whats comes of this.

Newcastle fail to stop seized documents being used in HMRC tax scandal investigation

The documents were seized in April 2017 and form part of a civil investigation into allegations of 'systematic abuse' of the tax system

www.telegraph.co.uk

That's what I love about the world. You can (allegedly) make all sorts of illicit payments to get round all sorts of rules, but don't try dodging the taxman. It's like they've never heard of Al Capone!

 

[Wellington Wolf]

I'm taking a selfish and possibly one eyed and Fosun defensive view.

Wolves realised we would have breached a rule that was set in black and white. We had to sell Neves, Collins and lose a manger I rated to satisfy the rules. We have lost out to accommodate these rules.

Everton didn't. They have been punished.

Nothing more to see here?

 

[jrpb-3]

Everton appealing points deduction
Everton launch appeal against points deduction

 

[Oh When the Wolves]

Everton appealing points deduction
Everton launch appeal against points deduction

Can we appeal ours?

 

[Pagey]

Andy Burnham was just on Talksport. I only heard the last couple of minutes so I'm not sure of the context but he seemed to be asking for leniency for Everton because they have a shiny new stadium being built that will enhance the Premier League.

So a new stadium that will generate millions more in revenue for them to spend is a reason to be lenient? Corruption they say.

Was he speaking as Mayor of Greater Manchester or as an Everton ticket holder? Not sure why I ask, just seems to grate on me if the former.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Will be interesting to see whats comes of this.

Newcastle fail to stop seized documents being used in HMRC tax scandal investigation

The documents were seized in April 2017 and form part of a civil investigation into allegations of 'systematic abuse' of the tax system

www.telegraph.co.uk

Good. Another dodgy club comes crawling out of the shadows. I hope the Premier League initiates an investigation using the HMRC material and brings charges against them too.

Interesting that West Ham were also raided at the same time, but I haven’t heard if HMRC found anything in their records? According to the article below (not a great source), the investigation is still ongoing.

West Ham HMRC probe is still ongoing - exclusive

Football Insider has learned that the civil compliance probe into the tax affairs of West Ham is still active, although the crimincal case has been dropped.

www.footballinsider247.com

 

[StaffordWolf]

Just seen they're potentially at risk of administration. They've borrowed 100m off 777 but the sale will not go through until at least January and may not go through at all. They'll probably have to sell players in Jan to cover the shortfall.

Funny part is people on their forum recon DCL is 60-70m player!