Welcome Notice

Hello and welcome to Molineux Mix a forum for Wolves fans by Wolves fans.

Register Log in

Everton, surely a points deduction?

SingYourHeartsOut

Last man standing, inaugural winner 2021
Joined
Aug 11, 2012
Messages
35,233
Reaction score
31,127
Yeah that is true, although I suspect a bigger proportion of their COVID allowable losses roll off with 19/20 than with some other clubs given their accounting period is 1st July-30th June.
I know at one point they were writing off 67m from the 139m, but that may have changed. If it's right though they must have written off even more from 20/21 to reach the £125m.
 

SingYourHeartsOut

Last man standing, inaugural winner 2021
Joined
Aug 11, 2012
Messages
35,233
Reaction score
31,127
I'm not saying the 10 points is too much, far from it, but it is very odd how spending too much/having losses above the limits has led to a more severe points penalty than the 9 points for going into administration.

Perhaps admin should equal more?
That was my initial reaction, but it's not really comparable IMO. If FFP is about stopping clubs spending too much and going bankrupt, then it makes sense to make going into administration a harsher punishment. However this is really about trying to cheat the system to stay in the league by spending beyond the limit, so a harsher sanction is fair enough.
 

WolfLing

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Jun 29, 2016
Messages
14,812
Reaction score
26,369
That was my initial reaction, but it's not really comparable IMO. If FFP is about stopping clubs spending too much and going bankrupt, then it makes sense to make going into administration a harsher punishment. However this is really about trying to cheat the system to stay in the league by spending beyond the limit, so a harsher sanction is fair enough.

I suppose a harsher than 9 point penalty, to a club already in administration, is too much like kicking someone when they're down.
 

WW1963

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Apr 25, 2015
Messages
11,547
Reaction score
10,635
TalkSPORT now reporting the FA may re-open an investigation into the transfer of Jermaine Defoe from Spurs to Portsmouth in 2008. Are the football authorities so terrified of an independent regulator that they are going to investigate everything and everyone?
The FA (who should have investigated at the time of the alleged offence and cannot presently explain why they did not ) cannot find the paperwork. It might even have been destroyed under Data Protection laws.
 

WickedWolfie

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Oct 26, 2018
Messages
39,463
Reaction score
42,469
On a serious note would not surprise me if new rules brought in to punish the teams moaning about var decisions with points deductions as well as the fines currently
If the FA keep doubling down on ridiculous punishments they make legal challenges to their wholly discredited disciplinary process ever more certain.
 

Sussex Wolf

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Jan 31, 2012
Messages
22,926
Reaction score
30,860
A saw a post from an Everton fan attacking a Wolves fan for agreeing with the punishment. The Everton fan said Wolves breached FFP and were fined, so we have no room to comment. Response was that Wolves were fined by UEFA because we over performed, and got into Europe quicker than expected, and never breached the PL rules. Also, we accepted our punishment and got on with it. Everton by contrast failed Premier League FFP partly because they under performed (finishing lower in the league than their financial plan accounted for), and far from accepting their punishment are appealing and have their media friends, politicians and fans trying to influence the outcome of the appeal.

**** them. I hope the three clubs are successful in their claim and are awarded £300m in compensation and these entitled scousers go into administration and drop down the leagues. A pathetic club with pathetic supporters.
 

wolfslair

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Jan 9, 2022
Messages
4,792
Reaction score
8,289
I saw that. Their excuses are wide ranging and pathetic.

Based on that excuse I’d be a multi millionaire but I’m not because my employer doesn’t pay me enough.
Stop it so now they are victims of covid…….

It is all the making of the club…… they were terribly run, covid just opened them up to having foundations made from papier-mâché
 

Superted

Has a lot to say
Joined
Jul 21, 2016
Messages
1,876
Reaction score
3,354
Everton were in a right old mess and well on the way to breaching the rules before covid was even a thing.

If covid hadn't come along then they would have had less mitigation and even fewer excuses.

It's a bit disingenuous to blame covid for the all the losses when they were uniquely vulnerable to the effects because of their strategy (or lack of it) for several years before the pandemic hit.
 

WickedWolfie

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Oct 26, 2018
Messages
39,463
Reaction score
42,469
Everton were in a right old mess and well on the way to breaching the rules before covid was even a thing.

If covid hadn't come along then they would have had less mitigation and even fewer excuses.

It's a bit disingenuous to blame covid for the all the losses when they were uniquely vulnerable to the effects because of their strategy (or lack of it) for several years before the pandemic hit.
Yup what they are basically saying is that the whole rotten edifice was built on foundations of sand and it is unfair that they are being punished for their stupidity in doing that because the tide coming in caused the issue.....
 

Sussex Wolf

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Jan 31, 2012
Messages
22,926
Reaction score
30,860

Interesting. Based on that, it seems reasonable that Everton might face a total of at least £102m in compensation for damages to Burnley, Leicester and Leeds. Possibly as high as £202m if the panel awarded each of Burnley and Leicester the £100m each are seeking. The other three claims look hard to justify.
 

Madmalc

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2022
Messages
759
Reaction score
648
Everton lodged its 2021/22 accounts with Companies House on the 12th of April 2023.
The panel took 7 months to reach their decision.
Should Everton post another loss for 2022/23 in April 2024, would there be any reason for the same panel to take more than 7 weeks to make a decision?
 

SingYourHeartsOut

Last man standing, inaugural winner 2021
Joined
Aug 11, 2012
Messages
35,233
Reaction score
31,127
Everton lodged its 2021/22 accounts with Companies House on the 12th of April 2023.
The panel took 7 months to reach their decision.
Should Everton post another loss for 2022/23 in April 2024, would there be any reason for the same panel to take more than 7 weeks to make a decision?
There is, same as last year, 40,000 documents to go through (although presumably a lot fewer this time) However I think they (and other clubs under threat of missing the limit) are supposed to submit by 31st December. Although why it takes that long you'd need someone better qualified than me to tell you!
 

Ned

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Aug 11, 2018
Messages
6,584
Reaction score
13,560
It's hard to feel much sympathy for Everton really? I thought they'd walk off with a slap on the wrists, but when you read how much they took the ****, a 10pt deduction in a season where 3 teams might struggle to break 25 points is a pretty nice touch of luck I'd say?

I'm seeing lots of fans on twitter saying 'but what about City?' which is a much bigger and much more complex case, but if you simply look at Evertons behvaiour in pure isolation, they can have no complaints really? If they manage to get away without being sued and even get one or two points knocked off on appeal they should really be laughing?
Basically they’ve had a massive touch that it took until this season and until it was evident that a 10 point deduction wouldn’t relegate them for the 10 point deduction to be handed out.

As I’ve said before, it’s all quite convenient, this one.
 

theweave

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
May 13, 2016
Messages
2,421
Reaction score
3,787
Basically they’ve had a massive touch that it took until this season and until it was evident that a 10 point deduction wouldn’t relegate them for the 10 point deduction to be handed out.

As I’ve said before, it’s all quite convenient, this one.
Unless they get further deductions due to going into administration from having to pay compensation
 

wolfslair

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Jan 9, 2022
Messages
4,792
Reaction score
8,289
Unless they get further deductions due to going into administration from having to pay compensation
The judgement by the same people who will hear the cases from those relegated clubs said that Everton didn’t gain a competitive advantage by doing what they did.

So there is an uphill battle before a word is even muttered for those clubs…..
 

Ned

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Aug 11, 2018
Messages
6,584
Reaction score
13,560
Unless they get further deductions due to going into administration from having to pay compensation
This is the thing, it depends how much of a legal hole the punishment has created.

As it stands: result.
If legal action goes through: uh oh.
 

Ned

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Aug 11, 2018
Messages
6,584
Reaction score
13,560
The judgement by the same people who will hear the cases from those relegated clubs said that Everton didn’t gain a competitive advantage by doing what they did.

So there is an uphill battle before a word is even muttered for those clubs…..
I can’t even fathom how anyone can claim they didn’t gain a competitive advantage. They didn’t even try to sell the family silver to attempt to comply and still actually signed players. For me that smacks of them choosing between relegation or taking their chances with whatever punishment gets dished out down the line.
 

WickedWolfie

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Oct 26, 2018
Messages
39,463
Reaction score
42,469
The judgement by the same people who will hear the cases from those relegated clubs said that Everton didn’t gain a competitive advantage by doing what they did.

So there is an uphill battle before a word is even muttered for those clubs…..
The PL can have whatever processes it wants. I assume that unless they signed up to those processes being binding and final any club unhappy with the findings has the option of going to a real Court.
 
Last edited:

wolfgar

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Dec 6, 2015
Messages
5,278
Reaction score
7,622
I can’t even fathom how anyone can claim they didn’t gain a competitive advantage. They didn’t even try to sell the family silver to attempt to comply and still actually signed players. For me that smacks of them choosing between relegation or taking their chances with whatever punishment gets dished out down the line.
I mean if they'd got lucky and absolutely hit the jackpot with all of those signings would anyone have credibly claimed spending beyond their means didn't give them a sporting advantage. They had one, they just wasted it
 

wolvesjoe

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Messages
4,968
Reaction score
4,541
Seems that the PL also has the aim of creating a credible deterrent in this case. By insisting on a substantial points deduction in this case, other clubs will accelerate adjusting the formulas they use for budgetting. Everton seemed to have relied on being given a permanent licence to overspend, as defined by the regulatory framework, and did not really have a strategy operating within that framework.

Several other clubs must have also sailed pretty close to the limits, including ourselves, but especially Villa, Forest and Chelsea, (and quite possibly Utd). The points deduction is the main credible punishment, which is why it is important to uphold if the framework is to have any meaning going forward.

Proverbial elephant in the room, of course, is Man City and all the financial and legal tricks they used to build the club up into the powerhouse it has become. The litmus test for the regulatory framework has become how Man City are dealt with.
 
Last edited:

WickedWolfie

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Oct 26, 2018
Messages
39,463
Reaction score
42,469
I mean if they'd got lucky and absolutely hit the jackpot with all of those signings would anyone have credibly claimed spending beyond their means didn't give them a sporting advantage. They had one, they just wasted it
I absolutely agree with your general sentiment.
Your last sentence would perhaps better read: "They sought one, and spent lots of money in doing so, but didn't achieve it."
 

thommo1984

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Jul 18, 2020
Messages
2,321
Reaction score
5,605
The Athletic podcast about this case which came out earlier this week is a good listen, by the way.

Interesting that Everton and The FA were in contact basically throughout the whole timeline and Everton were repeatedly told that what they were doing wasn't going to be allowed and they just carried on anyway, confident that it would be allowed when push came to shove.
 

Fenrir_

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Oct 6, 2019
Messages
6,222
Reaction score
13,077
The Athletic podcast about this case which came out earlier this week is a good listen, by the way.

Interesting that Everton and The FA were in contact basically throughout the whole timeline and Everton were repeatedly told that what they were doing wasn't going to be allowed and they just carried on anyway, confident that it would be allowed when push came to shove.
Which is why there shouldn't be any sympathy

There have been a lot of instances, certainly in the EFL, where authorities have worked with clubs that are in FFP trouble to try and get their houses in order rather than immediately slapping them with points deductions. We had that agreement with UEFA when we were in breach of their numbers, and it seems we may be doing similar now with the PL. Everton have been under PL scrutiny and carrying on regardless

I hope their punishment gets increased
 

Ned

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Aug 11, 2018
Messages
6,584
Reaction score
13,560
This is worth is just for their fan reaction. Their planned protests are fantastic and, for Everton fans, unsurprisingly involves booing a lot.
 

Jonzy54

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Jan 3, 2007
Messages
61,931
Reaction score
33,689
I had to laugh at that Everton fan who said they suffered because of Covid ,they had to build and pay for a new ground,they didn’t get what they were expecting for Richarlison and 10 points is excessive .Their punishment should be a lot less than 10 points and they should have a suspended fine because they have not been treated fairly for a minor misdemeanour.I nearly spit my toast out .
 

JJ59

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2007
Messages
494
Reaction score
683
Interesting how active the authorities have become lately. Finances under scrutiny, Spurs now in the dock regarding agents involvement some 15 years ago. What is next? Perhaps the possibility of the imposition of a Regulatory authority is having an effect. For sure Wolves appear have had to have black Friday sale of players in an episode usually reserved for post relegation.
 

SteveBullsKnee

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Feb 17, 2015
Messages
12,078
Reaction score
25,342
Interesting how active the authorities have become lately. Finances under scrutiny, Spurs now in the dock regarding agents involvement some 15 years ago. What is next? Perhaps the possibility of the imposition of a Regulatory authority is having an effect. For sure Wolves appear have had to have black Friday sale of players in an episode usually reserved for post relegation.
I think you’re bang on the money, they’re showing their teeth a bit prior to the independent regulator coming in. I’m sure the regulators first thing will be “what have you guys been doing to self regulate for 20 years”.
 

WickedWolfie

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Oct 26, 2018
Messages
39,463
Reaction score
42,469
I think you’re bang on the money, they’re showing their teeth a bit prior to the independent regulator coming in. I’m sure the regulators first thing will be “what have you guys been doing to self regulate for 20 years”.
I agree but can't help thinking that all that a spasm of late activity actually does is highlight the complete inactivity for a decade plus.
 

Dubwolf71

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Apr 3, 2009
Messages
5,705
Reaction score
3,054
I think you’re bang on the money, they’re showing their teeth a bit prior to the independent regulator coming in. I’m sure the regulators first thing will be “what have you guys been doing to self regulate for 20 years”.
Thinking back to Portsmouth 10 years ago, I always got the feeling that the FA/PL were more concerned about the image of the league Worldwide and didn't want to see clubs fail. The eventual points deduction was like a last resort.
 

JJ59

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2007
Messages
494
Reaction score
683
A regulator might make the top 6 club set up a little less cosy. In 2008 Spurs and Luton both breached the regs around Agents, Luton were relegated, no action against Spurs....! So although I was against the imposition of a regulator I am having second thoughts.
 

SteveBullsKnee

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Feb 17, 2015
Messages
12,078
Reaction score
25,342
A regulator might make the top 6 club set up a little less cosy. In 2008 Spurs and Luton both breached the regs around Agents, Luton were relegated, no action against Spurs....! So although I was against the imposition of a regulator I am having second thoughts.
I think short term the regulator will be a good thing, it’ll put a bit of panic into clubs used to just doing what they want, when they want. Long term I’m sure complacency will set it, with a nice mix of corruption and the “big” clubs will carry on as they want to.

Though I’m a massive cynic as I work in a heavily regulated industry where in my career there’s been two regulators over time, both of which have concentrated on the small businesses rather than taking on the big businesses because they’re scared of them, sounds very familiar?!?!?
 
Back
Top Bottom