Discuss ffp here.

[Flump]

Silly question but if we get in to Europe again end of this season. Will it create us the same problem

No, because we wouldn't have a year of splashing cash in the Championship with little income within the last three years of our accounts.

 

[wolvesjoe]

I don't know where to post this so here it is!

Premier League clubs £1 billion in the red as Wolves wages remain low

Now that Newcastle United have finally published their 2019/20 accounts, a full picture of the first COVID-19 affected season can be painted, and it's not a pretty sight

www.birminghammail.co.uk

That's a reassuring sight. Many clubs have done much, much worse over the Covid seasons. Should give Wolves some
extra leverage in the market.

 

[Halesowen wwfc]

That's a reassuring sight. Many clubs have done much, much worse over the Covid seasons. Should give Wolves some
extra leverage in the market.

According to that list everton and villa should be in absolute financial desperation. They have had 3 years allowable losses in one year, and we know they werent in profit for their previous 2 years. Surely the grealish money should have been used to recover the losses for last year, not to be spent back out again. I know the fa made allowances for covid, but it all just stinks

 

[Pintandkebab]

According to that list everton and villa should be in absolute financial desperation. They have had 3 years allowable losses in one year, and we know they werent in profit for their previous 2 years. Surely the grealish money should have been used to recover the losses for last year, not to be spent back out again. I know the fa made allowances for covid, but it all just stinks

Maybe their owners are of the opinion they would pay a fine and take a ban from europe for a year so they can try and maintain a top 8 place .

Lets be honest who on here could say what would happen to any club if they breach these regulations ? . As it seems as clear as mud and I think the first club to do it will get a fine and a ban before they then enforce heavier penalties .

 

[theweave]

Maybe their owners are of the opinion they would pay a fine and take a ban from europe for a year so they can try and maintain a top 8 place .

Lets be honest who on here could say what would happen to any club if they breach these regulations ? . As it seems as clear as mud and I think the first club to do it will get a fine and a ban before they then enforce heavier penalties .

Surely a ban is a big enough deterent? What's the point in building a team to qualify for europe if you're then banned from playing in europe?

 

[wolvesjoe]

According to that list everton and villa should be in absolute financial desperation. They have had 3 years allowable losses in one year, and we know they werent in profit for their previous 2 years. Surely the grealish money should have been used to recover the losses for last year, not to be spent back out again. I know the fa made allowances for covid, but it all just stinks

Knowing the exact detail of what has been allowed under the Covid rubric is key to really working out where clubs stand at present.

If others are taking advantage of some grey space for spending, then Fosun may have to reconsider their position re. investment at this time.

 

[wolvesjoe]

Surely a ban is a big enough deterent? What's the point in building a team to qualify for europe if you're then banned from playing in europe?

Maybe sacrificing Europa League involvement is a price worth paying. I suppose that is the debate for the mid-sized clubs like ourselves.

Our EL campaign was a great experience for the whole club, but it undoubtedly played a role in last season's fatigue, injury rate and overall ennui.

 

[Pintandkebab]

Surely a ban is a big enough deterent? What's the point in building a team to qualify for europe if you're then banned from playing in europe?

To play the year after with a better squad that has a chance of maintaining the position in the league and getting into Europe. Didn't Chelsea get a ban or something similar but might be under different circumstances?

Otherwise your better players willl leave every year if not winning domestic cups or Europe . Rui, Jota etc and I would bet at the end of this season if we finish mid table or below . Raul, Neto, and Neves may want to move

 

[wwbug]

FFP needs an overhaul ..
Or we may as well have a super league ,
Competitive football is becoming a joke.

 

[theweave]

To play the year after with a better squad that has a chance of maintaining the position in the league and getting into Europe. Didn't Chelsea get a ban or something similar but might be under different circumstances?

Otherwise your better players willl leave every year if not winning domestic cups or Europe . Rui, Jota etc and I would bet at the end of this season if we finish mid table or below . Raul, Neto, and Neves may want to move

That might happen too though if they club is banned from europe and they want to play there. You can't compare the pull of Chelsea to us as they have had years of consistently getting into europe and have the London pull.

 

[wwbug]

Because of financial fair play Messi Neymar and Mbappe play in the same team.
denying a spread of talent amongst a lot of other clubs who could afford them if owners could inject cash if they wished.

 

[wolvesjoe]

Because of financial fair play Messi Neymar and Mbappe play in the same team.
denying a spread of talent amongst a lot of other clubs who could afford them if owners could inject cash if they wished.

Here's an interesting article from the Telegraph, which begins to look at how Covid is allowing for money being pumped into clubs again.
Needs much more analysis but this may be the channel whereby owners can find an edge over rivals. Article also hints that there will be a new version of FFP soon enough that allows for greater owner investment:

Lionel Messi says PSG is 'best place' to win Champions League - as president dismisses FFP fears

The Paris Saint Germain president Nasser Al-Khelaifi brushed off suggestions on Wednesday that his club could breach Uefa’s financial fair play over the signing of Lionel Messi, signalling that the plan launched ten years ago to curb debt and spending is now regarded as obsolete by the elite it...

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[wwbug]

Here's an interesting article from the Telegraph, which begins to look at how Covid is allowing for money being pumped into clubs again.
Needs much more analysis but this may be the channel whereby owners can find an edge over rivals. Article also hints that there will be a new version of FFP soon enough that allows for greater owner investment:

Lionel Messi says PSG is 'best place' to win Champions League - as president dismisses FFP fears

The Paris Saint Germain president Nasser Al-Khelaifi brushed off suggestions on Wednesday that his club could breach Uefa’s financial fair play over the signing of Lionel Messi, signalling that the plan launched ten years ago to curb debt and spending is now regarded as obsolete by the elite it...

www.telegraph.co.uk

As it’s the Telegraph we will need to pay for this but thanks it looks like things are moving then.
Now PSG have squeezed out every other big European club ,bar Man City, the big clubs will start seeing things aren’t fair to them either.

 

[wolvesjoe]

As it’s the Telegraph we will need to pay for this but thanks it looks like things are moving then.
Now PSG have squeezed out every other big European club ,bar Man City, the big clubs will start seeing things aren’t fair to them either.

I havent dug properly into the debate and the detail.

My hunch is a backroom deal has been done to find a financial formula that preserves the Super League within the framework of the Champions League. And use the emergency Covid provisions to mask that process until UEFA has found the formula most appropriate for that aim.

Wolves would be well positioned to challenge the top group if there was more allowance for owner input, but only if Fosun was prepared to go that way, which looks doubtful at present.

Very few owners want to be permanently putting in millions, of course, but its a bit like a Formula One race where the extra power at the beginning of the race burns off the competitors. A two-three year advantage to the existing elite could stabilise their position for the next 8-10 years, which is what they want.

 

[wwbug]

I havent dug properly into the debate and the detail.

My hunch is a backroom deal has been done to find a financial formula that preserves the Super League within the framework of the Champions League. And use the emergency Covid provisions to mask that process until UEFA has found the formula most appropriate for that aim.

Wolves would be well positioned to challenge the top group if there was more allowance for owner input, but only if Fosun was prepared to go that way, which looks doubtful at present.

Very few owners want to be permanently putting in millions, of course, but its a bit like a Formula One race where the extra power at the beginning of the race burns off the competitors. A two-three year advantage to the existing elite could stabilise their position for the next 8-10 years, which is what they want.

Thanks.

It would help us if owners had a bit more discretion - though as you say Fosun may not use it.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Here's an interesting article from the Telegraph, which begins to look at how Covid is allowing for money being pumped into clubs again.
Needs much more analysis but this may be the channel whereby owners can find an edge over rivals. Article also hints that there will be a new version of FFP soon enough that allows for greater owner investment:

Lionel Messi says PSG is 'best place' to win Champions League - as president dismisses FFP fears

The Paris Saint Germain president Nasser Al-Khelaifi brushed off suggestions on Wednesday that his club could breach Uefa’s financial fair play over the signing of Lionel Messi, signalling that the plan launched ten years ago to curb debt and spending is now regarded as obsolete by the elite it...

www.telegraph.co.uk

Interesting read. Essentially they are expecting a new flavour of FFP which is more focused on current financials than retrospective multi year assessment and which is more relaxed regarding owners putting money in to cover current expenditures/debts.

 

[JayStringer]

FFP needs an overhaul ..
Or we may as well have a super league ,
Competitive football is becoming a joke.

I think it’ll be gone by next summer

 

[Superted]

Looks like there will be an overhaul. How far it will go is yet to be established.

UEFA set to overhaul Financial Fair Play rules later this year with a luxury tax and salary cap being considered

In 2020, UEFA gave greater financial powers to club owners due to the fragile economic circumstances caused by Covid-19; Romelu Lukaku has become the most expensive player in terms of combined transfer fees with £97.5m return to Chelsea while Lionel Messis PSG deal is worth £25m-a-year

www.skysports.com

Not sure about the luxury tax or the wage cap to be honest, I don't think either of those will fly with the clubs. I happen to like the idea of a wage cap I think it would definitely level the playing field but I know the clubs will never agree to it.

I did wonder whether transfers over a certain value could be subject to the submission of a basic business case prior to being registered with the league/UEFA which would confirm the transfer fee, length of contract, proposed salary, source(s) of funding and an affordability assessment. Same as is required if I want to get a mortgage.

It shouldn't be based on total losses across the business it should be based on affordability and if owners are prepared to be sensible while underwriting the costs of a transfer then so be it, but they should be able to demonstrate they are able to do so. It's the same as a director having to provide a personal guarantee on finance/loans provided to a company.

If la liga can basically veto Barcelona signing players because they can't afford them then UEFA and the Premier League should be able to do the same.

 

[Wolf316]

Looks like there will be an overhaul. How far it will go is yet to be established.

UEFA set to overhaul Financial Fair Play rules later this year with a luxury tax and salary cap being considered

In 2020, UEFA gave greater financial powers to club owners due to the fragile economic circumstances caused by Covid-19; Romelu Lukaku has become the most expensive player in terms of combined transfer fees with £97.5m return to Chelsea while Lionel Messis PSG deal is worth £25m-a-year

www.skysports.com

Not sure about the luxury tax or the wage cap to be honest, I don't think either of those will fly with the clubs. I happen to like the idea of a wage cap I think it would definitely level the playing field but I know the clubs will never agree to it.

I did wonder whether transfers over a certain value could be subject to the submission of a basic business case prior to being registered with the league/UEFA which would confirm the transfer fee, length of contract, proposed salary, source(s) of funding and an affordability assessment. Same as is required if I want to get a mortgage.

It shouldn't be based on total losses across the business it should be based on affordability and if owners are prepared to be sensible while underwriting the costs of a transfer then so be it, but they should be able to demonstrate they are able to do so. It's the same as a director having to provide a personal guarantee on finance/loans provided to a company.

If la liga can basically veto Barcelona signing players because they can't afford them then UEFA and the Premier League should be able to do the same.

Whatever they do it will still protect the elite.

 

[Superted]

Whatever they do it will still protect the elite.

Unfortunately we have to face facts and understand that we're not starting with a level playing field. The "elite" clubs were lucky enough to be able to build their success before any of this was an issue and their market positions and associated revenues now dwarf the vast majority of other clubs.

No matter what the solution the elite clubs will always be in a stronger position. All we can hope for is that any other club at least has a chance of competing. Yes we're all going to be at a significant disadvantage but all we want is the possibility that with ambition, sensible and intelligent planning and investment we, or anyone else prepared to do the same, could bridge the gap.

 

[wolvesjoe]

Unfortunately we have to face facts and understand that we're not starting with a level playing field. The "elite" clubs were lucky enough to be able to build their success before any of this was an issue and their market positions and associated revenues now dwarf the vast majority of other clubs.

No matter what the solution the elite clubs will always be in a stronger position. All we can hope for is that any other club at least has a chance of competing. Yes we're all going to be at a significant disadvantage but all we want is the possibility that with ambition, sensible and intelligent planning and investment we, or anyone else prepared to do the same, could bridge the gap.

I somewhat disagree with that analysis.

FFP was partly aimed at "pulling up the drawbridge" before any other clubs did a Man.City or a PSG, where oil-rich owners bought their way into the elite group. It worked in one sense that the top group was quite stable for a number of years from 2013 onwards.

However FFP also prevented the top group from dealing with the inevitable slumps by simply buying their way out of them, through new managers, new squad and disrupting the squads of aspirant clubs.

The top group itself became unstable, particularly in England, but increasingly across all the top group as large, unwieldy and expensive squads became difficult to manage.

The ever-greater emphasis on building a well-motivated, fit and balanced team, a longterm, secular trend, also meant that simply buying a handful of internationals was unlikely to transform a club's fortunes.

Finally, these superclubs became vulnerable to accelerated periods of crisis and decline as over-expectant and self-entitled fanbases demanded both instant and constant success. Arsenal are the best example so far of this superclub syndrome, but it looks as if Barcelona may dwarf that amusing decline.

All of these trends, underpinned by FFP, helped the aspirant clubs, including Wolves to mount more serious challenges to the top group monopoly. That's why restoring financial inequality through changes to the broadcasting distribution of monies has been a constant theme, and why the artless proposals for a super league came into existence, (although it is doubtful these were ever that serious and more a gambit for the next revamp of the CL).

So then Covid came along which further intensified the pressure on especially the top group with their fixed cost outgoings and dramatic falls in income putting many in financial necklock. Relaxing the rules is a vital step for the elite to regroup, pump money in and more generally, look to restructure their advantage through CL revenue redistribution, with its knock-on effect through the domestic leagues, where European qualification allows the top group to disrupt the aspirant group's chances, (as with possible moves for Neves, Traore, etc).

Final note: it shouldnt matter for Fosun as they can build Wolves up both within the FFP framework and also if it becomes possible for owners to invest more. But that depends on their ability and willingness to do that.

 

[SWest Wolf]

Found this in another site. Seems we need to aggregate break even this season for the previous few seasons. Seems to tie in with the sell to buy approach.

 

[Superted]

I somewhat disagree with that analysis.

FFP was partly aimed at "pulling up the drawbridge" before any other clubs did a Man.City or a PSG, where oil-rich owners bought their way into the elite group. It worked in one sense that the top group was quite stable for a number of years from 2013 onwards.

However FFP also prevented the top group from dealing with the inevitable slumps by simply buying their way out of them, through new managers, new squad and disrupting the squads of aspirant clubs.

The top group itself became unstable, particularly in England, but increasingly across all the top group as large, unwieldy and expensive squads became difficult to manage.

The ever-greater emphasis on building a well-motivated, fit and balanced team, a longterm, secular trend, also meant that simply buying a handful of internationals was unlikely to transform a club's fortunes.

Finally, these superclubs became vulnerable to accelerated periods of crisis and decline as over-expectant and self-entitled fanbases demanded both instant and constant success. Arsenal are the best example so far of this superclub syndrome, but it looks as if Barcelona may dwarf that amusing decline.

All of these trends, underpinned by FFP, helped the aspirant clubs, including Wolves to mount more serious challenges to the top group monopoly. That's why restoring financial inequality through changes to the broadcasting distribution of monies has been a constant theme, and why the artless proposals for a super league came into existence, (although it is doubtful these were ever that serious and more a gambit for the next revamp of the CL).

So then Covid came along which further intensified the pressure on especially the top group with their fixed cost outgoings and dramatic falls in income putting many in financial necklock. Relaxing the rules is a vital step for the elite to regroup, pump money in and more generally, look to restructure their advantage through CL revenue redistribution, with its knock-on effect through the domestic leagues, where European qualification allows the top group to disrupt the aspirant group's chances, (as with possible moves for Neves, Traore, etc).

Final note: it shouldnt matter for Fosun as they can build Wolves up both within the FFP framework and also if it becomes possible for owners to invest more. But that depends on their ability and willingness to do that.

I can see your point but the additional revenue that these clubs generate, under the current FFP model, allows them to spend more on players and wages than other clubs like us can only dream of.

So although FFP did hamstring the big clubs a bit. They were always starting from a much higher base.

I guess the sentiment is that those clubs were allowed to get to where they were either through significant recent/long term/historical success (i.e. Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool) or a significant short term investment by a rich benefactor (i.e. Chelsea, Man City). The FFP restrictions then removed the second option from all other clubs which felt unfair as the first route is unavailable to all but the select few mentioned.

If a rich benefactor wants to invest huge sums in a club in a responsible way then they should be allowed to, as long as it doesn't put the future of the club at risk if they decide they want out later. At the moment there seems to be a lack of balance between keeping clubs financially stable and allowing sufficient investment to properly challenge the "established elite" long term.

 

[wolvesjoe]

Probably important to read and digest this report to further develop this discussion:

file:///C:/Users/kaste/Downloads/deloitte-uk-deloitte-football-money-league-2021.pdf

One interesting note: because Wolves reached the last 8 of the EL, their income from that
campaign are not included and will be brought in when the next accounts are released as
part of the complicated calculations for FFP over the last two disrupted years.

So Wolves are registered for income of 151m Euros, just below Sheffield Utd. Actual
income was probably closer to 190m Euros, which would have put us into the top 20 of
Europe.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Probably important to read and digest this report to further develop this discussion:

file:///C:/Users/kaste/Downloads/deloitte-uk-deloitte-football-money-league-2021.pdf

One interesting note: because Wolves reached the last 8 of the EL, their income from that
campaign are not included and will be brought in when the next accounts are released as
part of the complicated calculations for FFP over the last two disrupted years.

So Wolves are registered for income of 151m Euros, just below Sheffield Utd. Actual
income was probably closer to 190m Euros, which would have put us into the top 20 of
Europe.

Interesting report. Our reported income of eur 151m was down from the prior year eur 195.5m. I’m not sure all of the Europa League income was missing. Reading the summary, it sounds like the income generated up to the suspension should be in that figure, but tv / prize money from after the suspension will be deferred to the following year. The links to all years can be found here:-

Deloitte Football Money League 2024

The 27th edition of the Deloitte Football Money League profiles the highest revenue generating clubs in world football over the 2022/23 season.

www2.deloitte.com