Discuss ffp here.

[Macman]

So basically, are we saying that by qualifying for the Europa League 2 seasons ago has screwed us over? Just doesn't seem fair.

 

[Ponty]

Fair point, I hadn't considered that method.

With that method there would be no mechanism to prevent the owner/major shareholder withdrawing funds if things turned sour which is why I assume it isn't allowed under FFP.

Nothing to stop an owner liquidating a club if they choose to. In many cases the value of the ground, well land, is the biggest asset. In our case it can’t happen as the ground can’t be sold, but I do wonder if a hard nosed investor will try it one day at another club. Get into the PL with some smart investment and a bit of luck, rake in all the Sky money and sell all the playing staff bar a few kids to play. Get relegated and liquidate the club and sell the ground.

 

[Ponty]

So basically, are we saying that by qualifying for the Europa League 2 seasons ago has screwed us over? Just doesn't seem fair.

It isn’t but the established clubs don’t want anyone gate crashing their party.

 

[Ned]

The club has spent £303,264,000 on transfers sunce Nuno was appointed

Yea, granted, but the self sufficiency was ill timed. The money spent was, in general, well spent but it needed further investment to raise the standards of the first team if a consistent top 6 challenge was to be mounted.

I mean, how can you moan at Fosun really? You can’t. But you have to say it’s frustrating that, IMO, they were so close to laying the perfect foundations and completing a major objective but just pulled back slightly too soon.

 

[MattH]

I imagine Villa are planning to do similar to Man City and just pay fines/ fight any restrictions in the courts if and when they get into Europe.

 

[NorthWolf]

It seems set up to stop clubs like Wolves with wealthy owners ever challenging the self titled ‘elite’ by buying their way in.

A scam basically, no club “organically” can ever break into the dirty six with any long term impact… look at Leicester, won the league and the team was then dismantled by the bigger clubs pretty quickly.

It’s completely manufactured to maintain the status quo for those dining at the top table, dressed up as protecting the other club’s finances.

FFP is not just here but in every league associated with the utterly corrupt UEFA. It was brought in to do one thing and one thing only cement the Brand Name Teams in the chumpions league, in part to deter them from breaking away by guaranteeing their dominance, which after a strange few seasons they tried to do anyhow, ensuring they didn't lose the millions spent world wide advertising their competition with their teams in it.

Look at the the Premier League, they have spent far too much money selling Six brand names world wide to let anything as silly as a level playing field, honest referees(sorry but it has been far too consistent over far too many years to be coincidence), correct implementation of VAR, disrupt that. Teams doing well outside those six are more despite the league bias than with it.

They do not want clubs like us coming in and disrupting their cabal by spending as they did. I believe had FFP not existed FOSUN would have been big spending, very big spending, Man City level spending. I also start to feel, as others here are, the reality of not being able to do so, not being able to enter this cabal, seeing the closed shop, has deterred them and after a few years they are now pulling back and seeing how viable the self sustaining model is.

How is it a level playing field, how is it fair play if not everyone can spend the same amount? It is dumbfounding that we compete in a league where certain teams have an automatic massive advantage over the rest. If we shot our players full of drugs to improve performance would we not be kicked out? How is this different?

And when by some dumb luck we buck the trend and win the thing or at least do well, our players are poached because to keep up we need the money from the sales to pad out the FFP room to buy players under rules made to stop us competing in the first place.

As it says in the good book f**k FFP, f**k UEFA and f**k the Premier League.

 

[optimuswolf]

View attachment 22957
That’s the statement above.

And whilst I can see where you’re coming from and having reread it what you’re saying could be true, it specifically states at the top of it that the agreement covers the 2020/21 and 2021/22 sporting seasons.

The club themselves have stated it is an issue, it’s a pretty bold claim to explicitly state they are lying. Especially as no journalist or anyone of note has picked them up on this.

The thing is, if you and others are right I don’t see what the club gain from this because in 12 months time the “excuse” is no longer available.

Maybe I’m just naive in thinking that they aren’t evil geniuses who lured us in by throwing £200m at the club just so they could snatch it all away and destroy everything they’re trying to build.

Or maybe that’s just too dull a take and super villains run our club is a more interesting one when there’s naff all else to talk about without and transfer gossip and the season not having started yet!

Why are you making this so binary?

Its not a case of evil FOSUN at all. They've already brought unparalleled success in my wolves lifetime.

But that doesn't mean that they're pushing investment as fast as they possibly could. They're clearly not investing like villa, everton currently. You just have to look at the respective finances of the clubs to see that.

I'm not moaning, but I can read a swissramble chart too....

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Nothing to stop an owner liquidating a club if they choose to. In many cases the value of the ground, well land, is the biggest asset. In our case it can’t happen as the ground can’t be sold, but I do wonder if a hard nosed investor will try it one day at another club. Get into the PL with some smart investment and a bit of luck, rake in all the Sky money and sell all the playing staff bar a few kids to play. Get relegated and liquidate the club and sell the ground.

If they did they would be poor business people. Much easier to do the first part and get promoted and then sell the club as a going concern as soon as you’ve proven the team can stay up. A stable PL club is worth more than the sum of its saleable assets. The TV rights make it so for a recently promoted club with relatively low outgoings. Fosun were trying to sell a share of Wolves after a couple of seasons in the PL but retain a controlling interest. That’s harder to pull off whilst still making it attractive to both parties.

 

[Ponty]

If they did they would be poor business people. Much easier to do the first part and get promoted and then sell the club as a going concern as soon as you’ve proven the team can stay up. A stable PL club is worth more than the sum of its saleable assets. The TV rights make it so for a recently promoted club with relatively low outgoings. Fosun were trying to sell a share of Wolves after a couple of seasons in the PL but retain a controlling interest. That’s harder to pull off whilst still making it attractive to both parties.

Staying in there costs money. Look at the teams that get promoted and spend peanuts - teams line WBA and Norwich - they go back down. If they took a full season’s Sky money and three parachute payments with next to no outgoings how much is that?

 

[Chris H]

Why are you making this so binary?

Its not a case of evil FOSUN at all. They've already brought unparalleled success in my wolves lifetime.

But that doesn't mean that they're pushing investment as fast as they possibly could. They're clearly not investing like villa, everton currently. You just have to look at the respective finances of the clubs to see that.

I'm not moaning, but I can read a swissramble chart too....

I’m not being binary, I was more being exaggerative for comical value. It was just a throw away line for a bit of humour as everything is so serious about something we have no control over whichever way you look at it!

That’s fair enough, although to be fair I’m an accountant so I more basis it on looking at the accounts myself. I really enjoy swissrambles stuff though, it’s very good.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Stayi g in there costs mo ey. Look at the teams that get promoted and spend peanuts - teams line WBA and Norwich - they go back down.

If Fosun decided to sell Wolves today they would likely nearly double the loan to them we are carrying on our books. Our brand value alone is worth £200m, never mind the clubs assets. That loan to Fosun represents the net cash injection they’ve made since they bought us. That’s a fair if not stellar return for them in 5 years. If we were relegated next season our brand value alone would more than half, our players would be worth less, and until they go, we would still have the same outgoings. That’s before considering tv money and commercial income, which would also be factored into any acquisition value.

 

[Ponty]

If Fosun decided to sell Wolves today they would likely nearly double the loan to them we are carrying on our books. Our brand value alone is worth £200m, never mind the clubs assets. That loan to Fosun represents the net cash injection they’ve made since they bought us. That’s a fair if not stellar return for them in 5 years. If we were relegated next season our brand value alone would more than half, our players would be worth less, and until they go, we would still have the same outgoings. That’s before considering tv money and commercial income, which would also be factored into any acquisition value.

If Fosun decided to sell Wolves today they would likely nearly double the loan to them we are carrying on our books. Our brand value alone is worth £200m, never mind the clubs assets. That loan to Fosun represents the net cash injection they’ve made since they bought us. That’s a fair if not stellar return for them in 5 years. If we were relegated next season our brand value alone would more than half, our players would be worth less, and until they go, we would still have the same outgoings. That’s before considering tv money and commercial income, which would also be factored into any acquisition value.

Sums don’t work for Wolves I agree but what about Brentford? Little brand value and a ground in London.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Sums don’t work for Wolves I agree but what about Brentford? Little brand value and a ground in London.

Still think that based on how an investor would value a London club with a new stadium, outstanding finance on the stadium, and guaranteed 100m+ revenue every year, it would be better business to sell the club in the PL rather than sell the players, let it get relegated and redevelop the land.

If Brentford hadn’t just built a new stadium then it might get closer to making sense. Even then anyone trying to asset strip and extract value from the land would likely hit the same issues the Bhatti’s did at Wolves. A hostile council and local public would make any deal to redevelop the stadium fraught and for what, a million or tens of millions profit? I’m not saying there aren’t clubs where this wouldn’t work, simply that tv rights have changed the economics for PL clubs since ours and others experience in the 80’s.

 

[Ponty]

Still think that based on how an investor would value a London club with a new stadium, outstanding finance on the stadium, and guaranteed 100m+ revenue every year, it would be better business to sell the club in the PL rather than sell the players, let it get relegated and redevelop the land.

If Brentford hadn’t just built a new stadium then it might get closer to making sense. Even then anyone trying to asset strip and extract value from the land would likely hit the same issues the Bhatti’s did at Wolves. A hostile council and local public would make any deal to redevelop the stadium fraught and for what, a million or tens of millions profit? I’m not saying there aren’t clubs where this wouldn’t work, simply that tv rights have changed the economics for PL clubs since ours and others experience in the 80’s.

Don’t get me wrong, I hope it never happens but the Sky money is so big and transfer fees so high that an owner wanting to get out might find liquidation over a period that maximises that income worth more than they could sell the club for.

 

[Flea]

So..we are free of the UEFA FFP shackles after this season?
Great?
It´s some crazy BS right here.
The cycle we have previously gone through has the ability to repeat itself until the end of time.
So,we are free from UEFA FFP rules..we go big in the transfer market yet again and assembles another team that wins us a place in a UEFA Cup.

Then we are stuck in the middle once again and all this will repeat itself.

It is impossible for us to have to work within two different set of FFP rules..we will always be stung one way or the other.
For us to be able to compete domestic we have to go far beyond the UEFA FFP rules.
We do that and we win an EL place or whatever..we will get punished by this different set of rules.

Tell you what,this is insane and there is no way out for us.

Let´s just give our EL place away the next time we win it hey?
It will be much better for us continuing with only having to obey to the Premier Leagues FFP rules.
Premier Leagues FFP rules is not compatible to UEFAs FFP rules and we are stuck in the middle forever in a repeating cycle.

It´s insane and I don´t want it.

 

[Flea]

May I suggest how we should proceed here going forward?

We make damn sure NOT to qualify for any UEFA tourney that makes us have to obey the UEFA FFP rules.

It is the single worst thing we can do..to qualify for any of those tournaments..Europa League and whatever.

Fact is,we have to make damn sure we don´t finish above eight place in the league for as many season it takes for us to build the team within the Premier Leagues FFP rules it takes.We must not under any circumstances..qualify for a UEFA tourney during this time period..and we might talking decades here.

If we have to we will have to tank some matches towards ends of seasons just to make sure we ain´t finishing to high..ie in a place that qualifies us for a UEFA tourney.

It absolutely kills us and must be avoided at all costs it seems.

It is completely and utterly insane..but the rules are the rules and we must act as smart as we can.

It was a disaster when we finished seventh first season back and qualified for EL.The disadvantages of that is felt at this precise moment and is massively outweighing the minor positives it brought.It hurts us considerably for repeated seasons.

We must avoid it at all costs in the future.

 

[SuperGran]

May I suggest how we should proceed here going forward?

We make damn sure NOT to qualify for any UEFA tourney that makes us have to obey the UEFA FFP rules.

It is the single worst thing we can do..to qualify for any of those tournaments..Europa League and whatever.

Fact is,we have to make damn sure we don´t finish above eight place in the league for as many season it takes for us to build the team within the Premier Leagues FFP rules it takes.We must not under any circumstances..qualify for a UEFA tourney during this time period..and we might talking decades here.

If we have to we will have to tank some matches towards ends of seasons just to make sure we ain´t finishing to high..ie in a place that qualifies us for a UEFA tourney.

It absolutely kills us and must be avoided at all costs it seems.

It is completely and utterly insane..but the rules are the rules and we must act as smart as we can.

It was a disaster when we finished seventh first season back and qualified for EL.The disadvantages of that is felt at this precise moment and is massively outweighing the minor positives it brought.It hurts us considerably for repeated seasons.

We must avoid it at all costs in the future.

No
All we did was qualify for Europa a season too soon so our championship season was part of the ffp cycle. We had losses of around 90m plus a much lower income in the championship
With pl and tv money we would have wiped those losses by the second PL year and therefore not failed ffp., because only premier league income wold be accounted for
so if Watford won the fa cup instead of Man City and then Chelsea in stead of arsenal we d be sound.
blame Watford.

 

[Joshwolf218]

Twitter in meltdown over sell to buy

I don't think anyone really understands the ffp sanctions etc

 

[Joshwolf218]

@Skrilla

So from what has been displayed etc 51.9 million is the number available for our knowledge

Meaning as such we could post say the £20 million we may get for the 4 outgoing on accounts as a whole 20 million and as you said spread the cost

 

[Skrilla]

Wolves reach settlement agreement with UEFA after FFP breach

Wolverhampton Wanderers will be allowed to register only 23 players instead of 25 if they qualify for the Champions League next season after breaching UEFA's Financial Fair Play (FFP) rules, European soccer's governing body has said.

www.reuters.com

I think the problem is the lack of clarity regarding the repercussions we would face if we didn't abide by this agreement with UEFA:

Wolverhampton Wanderers undertakes to report a maximum break-even deficit of 30 million euros in the financial year ending in 2020 and to finally reach, in the 2021-22 season, an aggregate break-even result for the financial years ending in 2019, 2020 and 2021 within the acceptable deviation.

I don't know of many examples of UEFA punishing clubs for breaking their FFP rules to compare our situation to. For instance, it could be a ban from European competition for 2-5 years if we ignore it, which given our lofty ambitions would be catastrophic, especially in terms of keeping our best players and recruiting players of that calibre.

The obvious workaround is deals like Trincao's where we agree to pay a substantial fee in a year's time as a workaround to this ruling, but in this current financial climate where clubs are struggling now, they want that cash instantly rather than 12 months down the line.

 

[Frank Lincoln]

I have said before this whole FFP thing confuses me. Can someone tell me why Aston Villa can spend money like it’s only just been invented, yet Wolves are under restrictions?

 

[Skrilla]

I have said before this whole FFP thing confuses me. Can someone tell me why Aston Villa can spend money like it’s only just been invented, yet Wolves are under restrictions?

To put it simply, we were too successful too early. We were competing in Europe with two years of substantial negative gains on our books from the last two Championship seasons (as FFP is assessed over three years), that's why UEFA put restrictions on us. That, and Jack Grealish is about to be sold for £100m.

 

[woop woop barmy army]

Silly question but if we get in to Europe again end of this season. Will it create us the same problem

 

[goldeneyed]

Don't pretend to understand every aspect of this FFP issue. But one thing is clear, as with the Trincao deal, we need to do loan to buy deals to get us out of the current jam. Ideally with no absolute commitment to buy, but if someone is good enough then why not if we are in a much better financial position next summer? Clock is ticking and these kinds of deals are never easy to get across the line. Can see us waiting for last minute deals which is risky to say the least....

 

[SuperGran]

Silly question but if we get in to Europe again end of this season. Will it create us the same problem

Not really the problem was our spending in the championship
because we’ve complied with the restraints if we went into Europa we wouldn’t have massive losses that we needed to break even.

 

[SuperGran]

Don't pretend to understand every aspect of this FFP issue. But one thing is clear, as with the Trincao deal, we need to do loan to buy deals to get us out of the current jam. Ideally with no absolute commitment to buy, but if someone is good enough then why not if we are in a much better financial position next summer? Clock is ticking and these kinds of deals are never easy to get across the line. Can see us waiting for last minute deals which is risky to say the least....

That’s our best solution loan with an obligation but the problem is most teams are cash strapped and want the money now

 

[Skrilla]

Silly question but if we get in to Europe again end of this season. Will it create us the same problem

Most likely no, because our last three years were in the Premier League so our losses aren't anywhere near as bad as they were when UEFA assessed us with two seasons of massive losses from being in the Championship on the books.

 

[Kebab Warrior]

Anyone got any transfer news?

 

[AndyWolves]

If anyone is interested our FFP agreement can be found in here

Club Financial Control Body | Inside UEFA

UEFA's decision-making body in charge of club licensing and financial sustainability.

www.uefa.com

 

[optimuswolf]

I’m not being binary, I was more being exaggerative for comical value. It was just a throw away line for a bit of humour as everything is so serious about something we have no control over whichever way you look at it!

That’s fair enough, although to be fair I’m an accountant so I more basis it on looking at the accounts myself. I really enjoy swissrambles stuff though, it’s very good.

Apols i didn't mean to sound so accusatory!

We're top half of the table in operating profit (or lower losses!), near the bottom on wages for our 2nd season in the prem. These are facts and i can't see anything in last year or this year as its panning out that would radically change this.

I'd be interested in any areas where you think the tables swissramble produces could be misinterpreted, as they do paint a pretty clear picture.

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

Yea, granted, but the self sufficiency was ill timed. The money spent was, in general, well spent but it needed further investment to raise the standards of the first team if a consistent top 6 challenge was to be mounted.

I mean, how can you moan at Fosun really? You can’t. But you have to say it’s frustrating that, IMO, they were so close to laying the perfect foundations and completing a major objective but just pulled back slightly too soon.

I think they realised how little Europa league adds to the bottom line, and we are still miles off Champions League

 

[Chris H]

Apols i didn't mean to sound so accusatory!

We're top half of the table in operating profit (or lower losses!), near the bottom on wages for our 2nd season in the prem. These are facts and i can't see anything in last year or this year as its panning out that would radically change this.

I'd be interested in any areas where you think the tables swissramble produces could be misinterpreted, as they do paint a pretty clear picture.

But those things surely point to being efficiently run don’t they?

Everton are probably at the other end of both of those tables to us but across 3 seasons we’ve finished above them twice and they’ve collected a total of one point more than us across that time despite the spending as much as they’re able.

Fosun were never going to bank roll us unconditionally, they have a duty of care to their shareholders. But that doesn’t mean they can’t maximise what they do by ensuring they make good business decisions.

There’s more to being successful than just whoever throws the most money at it (although obviously that does help)!

 

[optimuswolf]

But those things surely point to being efficiently run don’t they?

Everton are probably at the other end of both of those tables to us but across 3 seasons we’ve finished above them twice and they’ve collected a total of one point more than us across that time despite the spending as much as they’re able.

Fosun were never going to bank roll us unconditionally, they have a duty of care to their shareholders. But that doesn’t mean they can’t maximise what they do by ensuring they make good business decisions.

There’s more to being successful than just whoever throws the most money at it (although obviously that does help)!

We've definitely performed well in a VfM sense since fosuns 2nd season.

But thats not the point of the discussion, which iirc was about whether fosun were investing full throttle or not.

I think its pretty clear they aren't. Which I'm sort of okay with, but lets not kid ourselves they're pushing hard for Europe. There's very little chance of achieving that with our wage bill and spending on players.

 

[Chris H]

We've definitely performed well in a VfM sense since fosuns 2nd season.

But thats not the point of the discussion, which iirc was about whether fosun were investing full throttle or not.

I think its pretty clear they aren't. Which I'm sort of okay with, but lets not kid ourselves they're pushing hard for Europe. There's very little chance of achieving that with our wage bill and spending on players.

To be fair, I'm not trying to argue that we are spending every penny available to us. That doesn't mean we aren't necessarily restricted by FFP though.

If for instance Wolves had the ideal CB lined up by they were out of our price range because we'd fall foul of FFP, that doesn't mean they should sign a lesser one right on the limit just because they are all we can afford. Maybe they take the view that its better to wait until the right player is available and keep that budget available for then rather than filling the squad out for the sake of it because some money was available.

I'm not saying that's the definitive and only reason why we may not have signed these illusive CB's and CM's we need. Just a reason why we may not be pushing right up against the limits of FFP season in season out. If that were the case it wouldn't make Fosun less committed, just more savvy and taking a longer term view.

The reality is I think they realise that throwing sustained levels of money at it season after season still may see us struggle to compete at the very top so have taken a different approach trying to buy up the best players that will be available at a later point outside of our price range but whilst they're not there yet so still in it.

I like that we're doing something different to most. Otherwise if you just do the same as everyone else its just a fight to see who can spend the most and a club owned by an investment firm, no matter how rich they are, wont win that battle as sensible heads will overrule power crazy spending.

 

[optimuswolf]

To be fair, I'm not trying to argue that we are spending every penny available to us. That doesn't mean we aren't necessarily restricted by FFP though.

If for instance Wolves had the ideal CB lined up by they were out of our price range because we'd fall foul of FFP, that doesn't mean they should sign a lesser one right on the limit just because they are all we can afford. Maybe they take the view that its better to wait until the right player is available and keep that budget available for then rather than filling the squad out for the sake of it because some money was available.

I'm not saying that's the definitive and only reason why we may not have signed these illusive CB's and CM's we need. Just a reason why we may not be pushing right up against the limits of FFP season in season out. If that were the case it wouldn't make Fosun less committed, just more savvy and taking a longer term view.

The reality is I think they realise that throwing sustained levels of money at it season after season still may see us struggle to compete at the very top so have taken a different approach trying to buy up the best players that will be available at a later point outside of our price range but whilst they're not there yet so still in it.

I like that we're doing something different to most. Otherwise if you just do the same as everyone else its just a fight to see who can spend the most and a club owned by an investment firm, no matter how rich they are, wont win that battle as sensible heads will overrule power crazy spending.

Lets hope so. As mentioned I'm not getting worried, but I'm also not assuming that trying to break a very consistent relationship between wages and performance is def gonna work.

I do like a long term approach as do you. But itb would be nice to see some actual signs of success, such as growth in fan base, academy successes, big player sales (although jota was a sign of success ofc)

 

[Tony]

I don't know where to post this so here it is!

Premier League clubs £1 billion in the red as Wolves wages remain low

Now that Newcastle United have finally published their 2019/20 accounts, a full picture of the first COVID-19 affected season can be painted, and it's not a pretty sight

www.birminghammail.co.uk

 

[Hoganstolemywife]

Does anyone with relevant expertise have any inkling as to how much the deal with Monster is worth? Im curious and I have no idea whether it's hundreds of thousands or Millions.

Are there any publicly known touchstone deals for comparison?

 

[YouGottaRaulWithIt]

Mate, if we g

Silly question but if we get in to Europe again end of this season. Will it create us the same problem

Mate, if we get into europe with the team we have, it would be a bloody miracle.

 

[Pintandkebab]

If we get into Europe as it stands this season then we will have local nut jobs out the front of Molineux with signs saying we believe and that Bruno is the second coming .

 

[wolvesjoe]

Yea, granted, but the self sufficiency was ill timed. The money spent was, in general, well spent but it needed further investment to raise the standards of the first team if a consistent top 6 challenge was to be mounted.

I mean, how can you moan at Fosun really? You can’t. But you have to say it’s frustrating that, IMO, they were so close to laying the perfect foundations and completing a major objective but just pulled back slightly too soon.

Income in same period around 650 million??

Asset value of current squad??

Approx. 400 million??

Fosun's recruitment and investment policy has been excellent, without doubt. Inevitably it got a lot harder
when they hit the glass ceiling at the end of 2019/20. Players wanting to move up the ladder, higher fees to
improve the squad, a need to work within the FFP rules, which favour the established elite and so on.

The extra margin that Fosun can give by spending up to the allowed limits on losses is one of the ways to
compete with the elite, and it is that margin that seems to have been affected by Covid and the great uncertainty
over relations with China that has emerged over the last three years.