Benitez

[Optimistic Hove Wolf]

Why has the thread title changed

Moderation - see Mutchy's post above.

 

[NorthWestWolf]

This is the comment that really grates on me. "because they might try and do it again" What get our player racially abused again? Unbelievable!! Smacks of the Suarez incident where Liverpool blindly supported him. Pathetic.

 

[Matt]

What absolutely embarrassing comments. Beyond belief to be honest.

 

[Deleted member 4124]

Someone should investigate Rafa's mental health.

 

[Wall heath Wanderer]

Why has the thread title changed

Its one of the baby steps being taken to eventually make everyone post for the greater good komrade, just like when a thread gets closed as a commissar isn't around to censor posts as they are made.
Its all for the greater good, and losses are inevitable, but trust in the state.

 

[ShropshireLad]

Before we all get up in arms, he doesn't actually "urge" the FA to look at anything. He also doesn't "demand action" as the e+s put it. Stupid thing to say by Benitez but I think it's time to forget it now.
Also quite amusing that calling Saiss an Arab is racist, despite him being from an Arabic country, but it's fine for the OP to call Benitez a fat Spanish waiter!!
Bored of this now.

To be fair, brightside, and I know you are fair in what you post, Benitez is Spanish but Moroccans are not Arabs and in the context of how Shelvey used the word "Arab" it was denigrating. However, to call Benitez a "fat Spanish waiter" is not a slur on the Spanish but it is towards folk who are overweight as it's denigrating to them...and to call him a "bald Spanish waiter" would also have repercussions for folk like Shelvey.

So having thought the matter through whilst typing I've decided that he's just a sad Spanish waiter.
If anyone on here feels sad and thinks I've maligned them and wants to put me right then please do so and I apologise in advance.

 

[Macman]

When we went to Newcastle, one of their fans "flicked the v's" at me just outside the ground. I might ask the FA to retrospectively look into this and close St James' Park for 3 games, while deducting them 10 points.

 

[Big Saft Kid]

To be fair, brightside, and I know you are fair in what you post, Benitez is Spanish but Moroccans are not Arabs

You what?! The official language is Arabic, they all speak Arabic and they are members of the Arab League!

 

[goldfish]

What kind of world are we living in where we can't tell a disgusting little racist that he's a disgusting little racist?

 

[Edgmond Wolf]

What kind of world are we living in where we can't tell a disgusting little racist that he's a disgusting little racist?

I must of got the words wrong on Saturday....I am sure I used stronger words....but entirely agree with you

A stale and pale world with everything done politically correct

 

[ShropshireLad]

You what?! The official language is Arabic, they all speak Arabic and they are members of the Arab League!

You are right about all those things but they are NOT Arabs. Google "Are Moroccans Arabs?" and you'll find out.
It's just one of those anomalies like Israel and now Australia being in the Eurovision Song Contest but they're obviously not European.

Morocco identifies with the area for geopolitical and social reasons but it doesn't make them Arabs.

You might also find this useful:

 

[reanswolf]

Interesting that they link the Wolves fans verdict comments from here to their forum, and then their replies to reading our comments at the bottom are quite generous to us.
http://www.themag.co.uk/2017/02/wol...mments-wolves-0-newcastle-1-newcastle-united/

 

[JOSWolf]

View attachment 593


This is the comment that really grates on me. "because they might try and do it again" What get our player racially abused again? Unbelievable!! Smacks of the Suarez incident where Liverpool blindly supported him. Pathetic.

Disgraceful comments by Lascelles. Newcastle looking like right ****s here.

 

[FLEET WOLF]

When we went to Newcastle, one of their fans "flicked the v's" at me just outside the ground. I might ask the FA to retrospectively look into this and close St James' Park for 3 games, while deducting them 10 points.

Make it 30 points and that would be about right!

 

[Oldgold Wolfcub]

You are right about all those things but they are NOT Arabs. Google "Are Moroccans Arabs?" and you'll find out.
It's just one of those anomalies like Israel and now Australia being in the Eurovision Song Contest but they're obviously not European.

Morocco identifies with the area for geopolitical and social reasons but it doesn't make them Arabs.

You might also find this useful:

And soon neither hopefully will we be. As the rest of Europe despise us we will never win so thankfully we will not have to suffer it again soon.

 

[ShropshireLad]

And soon neither hopefully will we be. As the rest of Europe despise us we will never win so thankfully we will not have to suffer it again soon.

I take your humour on the chin and express appreciation of your wit, young man - begrudgingly.

In the past I loathed the format but it's got better and can be quite a laugh these days...often for the wrong reasons.

Terry Wogan was brilliant in it.

 

[Jonzy54]

And soon neither hopefully will we be. As the rest of Europe despise us we will never win so thankfully we will not have to suffer it again soon.

I don't watch it but they will never kick us out because the BBC are one of the top financial contributors.

 

[Deleted member 4594]

To be fair, brightside, and I know you are fair in what you post, Benitez is Spanish but Moroccans are not Arabs and in the context of how Shelvey used the word "Arab" it was denigrating. However, to call Benitez a "fat Spanish waiter" is not a slur on the Spanish but it is towards folk who are overweight as it's denigrating to them...and to call him a "bald Spanish waiter" would also have repercussions for folk like Shelvey.

So having thought the matter through whilst typing I've decided that he's just a sad Spanish waiter.
If anyone on here feels sad and thinks I've maligned them and wants to put me right then please do so and I apologise in advance.

I always try and be fair mate!!
If only Shelvy had called Saiss a Morroccan **** instead of an Arab **** he'd have been ok!

 

[Deleted member 4594]

Disgraceful comments by Lascelles. Newcastle looking like right ****s here.

Lascelles is entitled to an opinion. For a "dirty rascist" Shelvey seems to get on well enough with his many black and foreign colleagues...

 

[Edgmond Wolf]

And soon neither hopefully will we be. As the rest of Europe despise us we will never win so thankfully we will not have to suffer it again soon.

We need to Brexit the Eurovision

 

[Essex Wolf]

Who really cares about what Benitez says or thinks? This is child like and frankly pathetic. If he wants to stand up for a man who has been found guilty of racism that says far more about him that it does about the people he is bitching about.

 

[ShropshireLad]

We need to Brexit the Eurovision

Mate, I certainly wouldn't stay in to watch it instead of going to see Wolves play.

 

[Edgmond Wolf]

Mate, I certainly wouldn't stay in watch it instead of going to see Wolves play.

I would not and do not watch it full stop

 

[Essex Wolf]

I would not and do not watch it full stop

Why would any sane person?

 

[Big Saft Kid]

You are right about all those things but they are NOT Arabs. Google "Are Moroccans Arabs?" and you'll find out.
It's just one of those anomalies like Israel and now Australia being in the Eurovision Song Contest but they're obviously not European.

Morocco identifies with the area for geopolitical and social reasons but it doesn't make them Arabs.

You might also find this useful:

In terms of its ethnic history, Morocco is, like most places in the Middle East, North Africa, or Europe come to that, a mix. It was, until about 700 AD, entirely Berber speaking. Then the Arabs arrived and continued arriving in waves for the next 300 years. By about 1000 AD, what is now 'Morocco' had become very heavily Arabized via this continued migration. The only Berber-speaking areas left were the Atlas mountains. These days, that is still the case, only more so. There are probably a couple of million Arabic-Berber bilinguals, the rest (31 million) are purely Arabic speaking whatever their ethnic origin. Nearly everybody speaks French too, due to the French colonisation which ended in 1956. It is fashionable in Morocco these days to play up the Berber heritage (as in your video), but the fact is they all now speak Arabic. Similarly, in Egypt, they like to play on their Pharaonic roots, as in the early 7th century they too were entirely a non-Arab Hamitic people. But today, all anyone in Egypt knows is Arabic, for exactly the same reasons as in Morocco. As for Moroccans not being Arabs, you might just as well say that England is not really English but 'really' Celtic, as the Celts were its first known inhabitants (until they got pushed to side lines by the Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Vikings and Norman French).

Trust me mate, I taught this stuff for over 40 years, lived in the Middle East and N Africa for 10 of them (including Morocco), and I don't need to look at Wikipedia on the subject -- I speak the language fluently, know the history of its peoples intimately, and have a library of books (and have written several myself) on the subject, many of them in Arabic

 

[ShropshireLad]

In terms of its ethnic history, Morocco is, like most places in the Middle East, North Africa, or Europe come to that, a mix. It was, until about 700 AD, entirely Berber speaking. Then the Arabs arrived and continued arriving in waves for the next 300 years. By about 1000 AD, what is now 'Morocco' had become very heavily Arabized via this continued migration. The only Berber-speaking areas left were the Atlas mountains. These days, that is still the case, only more so. There are probably a couple of million Arabic-Berber bilinguals, the rest are purely Arabic speaking whatever their ethnic origin. Nearly everybody speaks French too, due to the French colonisation which ended in 1956. It is fashionable in Morocco these days to play up the Berber heritage (as in your video), but the fact is they all now speak Arabic. Similarly, in Egypt, they like to play on their Pharaonic roots, as in the early 7th century they too were entirely non-Arab Hamitic people. But today, all anyone in Egypt knows is Arabic, for exactly the same reasons as in Morocco. As for Moroccans not being Arabs, you might just as well say that England is not really English but 'really' Celtic, as the Celts were its first known inhabitants (until they got pushed to side lines by the Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Vikings and Norman French).

Trust me mate, I taught this stuff for over 40 years, lived in the Middle East and N Africa for 10 of them (including Morocco), and I don't need to look at Wikipedia -- I speak the language fluently, know the history of its peoples intimately, and have a library of books on the subject, most of them in Arabic

I don't trust you I'm afraid.

Trust me Middle Eastern politics was part of my degree and I taught history until I retired. You can spin it how you like but speaking Arabic doesn't make them Arabs. I had a friend at uni who studied Arabic and she certainly isn't an Arab.

Besides the evidence on the 'net is overwhelmingly in my favour.

 

[Big Saft Kid]

I don't trust you I'm afraid.

Trust me Middle Eastern politics was part of my degree and I taught history until I retired. You can spin it how you like but speaking Arabic doesn't make them Arabs. I had a friend at uni who studied Arabic and she certainly isn't an Arab.

Besides the evidence on the 'net is overwhelmingly in my favour.

**** the net! You don't trust me?! What, you think I'm lying? I'll pm you with my University web page and other stuff.

 

[ShropshireLad]

**** the net! You don't trust me?! What, you think I'm lying? I'll pm you with my University web page and other stuff.

I really don't care. You just have to look at Saiss and see that he isn't an Arab.

It would be like calling a Eurasian Afro-Carib simply because he can speak in dialect as a result of being brought up on a council estate alongside Jamaican families.

With regard to your question about lying, I'd like to point out that despite all your esteemed learning it's simply the case that you're mistaken. To suggest that I think that you're lying when I've simply provided evidence to prove you wrong is such a juvenile (playground bullying-tactic) way to conduct rational debate. It's actually embarrassing. I hope that you didn't treat your students in that way.

The fact that Saiss isn't an Arab is the most pertinent point in the debate about the racist slur. He isn't an Arab and to be called an Arab has pejorative connotations and is denigrating. That's all that matters.

 

[Big Saft Kid]

I really don't care. You just have to look at Saiss and see that he isn't an Arab.

It would be like calling a Eurasian Afro-Carib simply because he can speak in dialect as a result of being brought up on a council estate alongside Jamaican families.

With regard to your question about lying, I'd like to point out that despite all your esteemed learning it's simply the case that you're mistaken. To suggest that I think that you're lying when I've simply provided evidence to prove you wrong is such a juvenile way to conduct rational debate. It's actually embarrassing. I hope that you didn't treat your students in that way.

The fact that Saiss isn't an Arab is the most pertinent point in the debate about the racist slur. He isn't an Arab and to be called an Arab has pejorative connotations and is denigrating.

I have just wasted half an hour trying to pm you, only to be told at the end of my message that I can't exceed 420 characters.
You provide no 'evidence'. The question is basically 'What is an Arab'? The only definition I have ever come across is that given by Michel Aflaq, the (Christian) founder of the Syrian Baath party: 'An Arab is someone who speaks Arabic and thinks of himself as an Arab' (and what they 'look like' has nothing whatsoever to do with it -- I've met blond blue-eyed Yemenis). Some Moroccans and others from the Maghreb, though they speak Arabic only, like to play up the second part of Aflaq's definition: they DON'T think of themselves as Arabs. Fair enough, but that's a personal choice they make, and it's not based on their genetics or their distant history, about which most people know little or nothing. I have no idea if Saiss thinks of himself as an Arab, as a Moroccan, or, like many Moroccans I know, as both at the same time, as they are not mutually exclusive terms. You say Saiss "isn't an Arab" -- do you know him well enough to be able to say that he thinks that? You sound very sure of yourself.

 

[ShropshireLad]

I have just wasted half an hour trying to pm you, only to be told at the end of my message that I can't exceed 420 characters.
You provide no 'evidence'. The question is basically 'What is an Arab'? The only definition I have ever come across is that given by Michel Aflaq, the (Christian) founder of the Syrian Baath party: 'An Arab is someone who speaks Arabic and thinks of himself as an Arab' (and what they 'look like' has nothing whatsoever to do with it -- I've met blond blue-eyed Yemenis). Some Moroccans and others from the Maghreb, though they speak Arabic only, like to play up the second part of Aflaq's definition: they DON'T think of themselves as Arabs. Fair enough, but that's a personal choice they make, and it's not based on their genetics or their distant history, about which most people know little or nothing. I have no idea if Saiss thinks of himself as an Arab, as a Moroccan, or, like many Moroccans I know, as both at the same time, as they are not mutually exclusive terms. You say Saiss "isn't an Arab" -- do you know him well enough to be able to say that he thinks that? You sound very sure of yourself.

And that's what matters.

BTW, don't bother with the pm.

 

[Jonzy54]

Come come boys it doesn't have to descend to a bun fight .It ain't worth it.
Kiss and make up.

 

[Henry Palfrey]

In terms of its ethnic history, Morocco is, like most places in the Middle East, North Africa, or Europe come to that, a mix. It was, until about 700 AD, entirely Berber speaking. Then the Arabs arrived and continued arriving in waves for the next 300 years. By about 1000 AD, what is now 'Morocco' had become very heavily Arabized via this continued migration. The only Berber-speaking areas left were the Atlas mountains. These days, that is still the case, only more so. There are probably a couple of million Arabic-Berber bilinguals, the rest (31 million) are purely Arabic speaking whatever their ethnic origin. Nearly everybody speaks French too, due to the French colonisation which ended in 1956. It is fashionable in Morocco these days to play up the Berber heritage (as in your video), but the fact is they all now speak Arabic. Similarly, in Egypt, they like to play on their Pharaonic roots, as in the early 7th century they too were entirely a non-Arab Hamitic people. But today, all anyone in Egypt knows is Arabic, for exactly the same reasons as in Morocco. As for Moroccans not being Arabs, you might just as well say that England is not really English but 'really' Celtic, as the Celts were its first known inhabitants (until they got pushed to side lines by the Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Vikings and Norman French).

Trust me mate, I taught this stuff for over 40 years, lived in the Middle East and N Africa for 10 of them (including Morocco), and I don't need to look at Wikipedia on the subject -- I speak the language fluently, know the history of its peoples intimately, and have a library of books (and have written several myself) on the subject, many of them in Arabic

Dear BSK
if you could condense into a chant of 15 words or less that would be great.
Yours sincerely
The South Bank

 

[ShropshireLad]

Come come boys it doesn't have to descend to a bun fight .It ain't worth it.
Kiss and make up.

No bun-fight from me, Mr Jonzy. Rational arguments in a debate to defend my corner without recourse to swearing etc is my style.

 

[Edgmond Wolf]

Bloody hell I missed a fight

 

[Big Saft Kid]

And that's what matters.

BTW, don't bother with the pm.

Well thanks at least for repeating a proper source that I, not you, provided, and which has a bit more credibility than what somebody or other has posted on Wikipedia. Like I said, identity and self-definition is largely a personal choice: 'Arab' and 'Moroccan' are not mutually exclusive terms, you can be a Moroccan national and call yourself one or both. That's rational argument based on the practice of what people actually do in their daily lives, observed at first hand.

 

[Big Saft Kid]

Dear BSK
if you could condense into a chant of 15 words or less that would be great.
Yours sincerely
The South Bank

Ay, ay, ay, ay, Saiss is an Arab Moroccan
And Costa and Cav, they are both Portuguese
An we'm all delighted we've got 'em!!!

I'll get me coot...

 

[Big Saft Kid]

No bun-fight from me, Mr Jonzy. Rational arguments in a debate to defend my corner without recourse to swearing etc is my style.

Shock, horror! I described it as the ****ing Net! My apologies to any old ladies of a sensitive disposition who may be present

 

[Oldgold Wolfcub]

I don't watch it but they will never kick us out because the BBC are one of the top financial contributors.

And the country to the European Union.......what will they do without us?

 

[ShropshireLad]

Well thanks at least for repeating a proper source that I, not you, provided, and which has a bit more credibility than what somebody or other has posted on Wikipedia. Like I said, identity and self-definition is largely a personal choice: 'Arab' and 'Moroccan' are not mutually exclusive terms, you can be a Moroccan national and call yourself one or both. That's rational argument based on the practice of what people actually do in their daily lives, observed at first hand.

I haven't looked on Wikipedia. I haven't a clue why you are referring to it again. I posted a link with plenty of other credible sources. Not very academic are you?

 

[Jonzy54]

No bun-fight from me, Mr Jonzy. Rational arguments in a debate to defend my corner without recourse to swearing etc is my style.

Maybe not,however a stance of intransigence leads to comments that might be regretted later.It is the bigger man who acknowledges this.
I am not taking sides .