Will Fosun realise?

[Mugwump]

No he doesn't....nor Hugo Bueno...and not fully Santiago Bueno....

I was digging at O'Neil....I agreed with him not using Fabio and Saza and agreed you put your best team available out but was just saying you can't use burning players out then as an excuse....

I still honestly think you have to work with what you have, so if you have Sasa, you tweak your style of play to accomdate him if you dont have other options. You dont have to do it every game, but you need to do it with a thin forward line.

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

No he doesn't....nor Hugo Bueno...and not fully Santiago Bueno....

I was digging at O'Neil....I agreed with him not using Fabio and Saza and agreed you put your best team available out but was just saying you can't use burning players out then as an excuse....

He thought they would be fine until January when new players would then arrive.

Our results in December, the busiest period of the season, vindicate his squad management, and players didn't pick up serious injuries in that period.

His argument will be that he planned to rotate with the new signings he was expecting in January.

Would Neto have played at home to Fulham after he was subbed at half-time a week before and clearly not fully fit? I highly doubt it.

Would Hwang have been playing when clearly not fully fit from the Asia Cup? I highly doubt it.

In fairness, Cunha would have started against Brentford, so not much we can do there, that could just be bad luck.

However, it's pretty fair to come to the conclusion that Hwang and Neto are not playing because they were overworked from the busy schedule that came in February/March - exactly as O'Neil warned. It's nothing to do with Sasa and Silva.

 

[SmiffyWolf]

Shows the money was there, however limited, all window but we left things to the last minute. Things did change in that last week of January. ONeil alluded to this in a press conference before a game just at the end of the window.

Totally agree but was it a smokescreen as surely that money plus more will be available in the summer . I will be interested to see if the ****e gets trotted out that we need to sell more before we buy or we are looking at budget signings. As if that is the case then that Brazilian striker signing was just to look as though we were doing something.

I mean it wouldn't be the first time the goal posts have moved not for just us as fans but various managers including GON .

 

[SmiffyWolf]

I always thought Fosun were close to the perfect owners for Wolves...

They brought investment, connections, ambition, and intelligence, as well as a fresh start.

They also seemed to understand the club having studied its history and roots.

So it would be with some trepidation that I viewed new owners. But Jan 24, (and Jan 22 tbh),
showed how far they had left behind most of those original qualities. When they harm the club,
it gets hard to see the point of their ownership. I agree more broadly with the idea that this summer
will be a sort of last chance to see if they can rediscover some of the ambition and strategic thinking,
(although I suspect that bird has flown).

Totally agree and if you don't move forwards like they did in the early stages of their ownership then the team will decline.

 

[lets all have a disco]

I still honestly think you have to work with what you have, so if you have Sasa, you tweak your style of play to accomdate him if you dont have other options. You dont have to do it every game, but you need to do it with a thin forward line.

Yes off course.....but it easier said than done when you are a manager under the pressure to get results...none of us were moaning the team wasn't changing when the results were coming..

It was pretty obvious Villa were going to run Watkins into the ground.... been pointing it out for months at work to the villa fans.....it's a similar scernerio really Emery could have rested Watkins at times for Duran but the results wouldn't have happened as the cover wasn't as good...it's not just limited to us.....we are just unlucky 3 and a half with bellegarde forward options got injured....Villa couldn't cope with Watkins , Duran , bailey and Diaby out....

 

[Sussex Wolf]

He has a goal contribution every 148 minutes this season in all competitions, and 166 in the league, so I don't think he is nearly as bad as you're making out. If he had a run of starts and a chance to build his match sharpness, I am positive he would get goals and assists.

There are all manner of reasons why he hasn't done so well at Chelsea, to which we are not party. Perhaps he's the sort of young man with confidence issues who needs careful vis-a-vis man management, or a good old arm round the shoulder which he might not have been getting in the environment at a club like Chelsea (and that Gary probably would have been able to offer). As for Fulham, Marco Silva has admitted it is down to the unexpectedly electric form of Rodrigo Muniz, who has 9 goal contributions in his last 9 games.

Maybe, maybe not.

My point is that his stats for the past 18 months are worse than our forwards and when I watched him against a wide open Boro defence for 65 mins he did little, scored none and assisted none, yet his teammates scored 6. If we were talking about those stats in our team he would be slated on here. They are objective facts.

Now maybe GON could get him to perform but he didn’t get Fabio or Sasa buzzing before Christmas so maybe not.

 

[wolfslair]

Maybe, maybe not.

My point is that his stats for the past 18 months are worse than our forwards and when I watched him against a wide open Boro defence for 65 mins he did little, scored none and assisted none, yet his teammates scored 6. If we were talking about those stats in our team he would be slated on here. They are objective facts.

Now maybe GON could get him to perform but he didn’t get Fabio or Sasa buzzing before Christmas so maybe not.

Be fair to Sasa, he had multiple goals in not a lot of minutes……

He couldn’t have done much more with the limited pitch time he had

 

[berwickwolf]

Dyche is fighting a relegation battle, Wolves were in for a cup semi final and a chase for 6th-7th. Its a different context, with different demands for performance and points.

Fosun have effectively cut this season off at the knees, and damaged the club in many ways.

We just dont know how much yet.

Over the years, I have learnt that there are always apologists for the board on this site and elsewhere. No matter
how egregious their mistakes.

And always those that complain, no matter how much their success.

Edit: I like Lemina's post, tiny squad, huge heart. That is how to motivate who and what we have, not bemoan our fate and blame the owners. It is as it is, a good management makes the most of it and plans ahead, the summer will be the test.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Be fair to Sasa, he had multiple goals in not a lot of minutes……

He couldn’t have done much more with the limited pitch time he had

I’m not slating Sasa, I’m just saying that I don’t think Broja was the player to push the boat out for in January. We tried to get him, and he would have been a low cost gamble and option off the bench when our other forwards were fit. But when we had competition from Fulham, he wasn’t worth overspending on, IMO.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

I think, regarding the state of the forward line, that GON also needs to look at himself and shoulder some of the blame. He’d been in the job, what, 3 months (?) and had decided that Sasa and Fabio weren’t for him so stopped playing them and bringing them on. He basically let them fester and froze them out to an extent so they both wanted to leave in January to play some football. He’s a good coach but surely could see the workload he was putting on 3 players in particular and surely could have adapted his plans to give Fabio and Sasa more game time, be it earlier subs or even the occasional start. He cant have it both ways and now passive aggressively moan about the options he’s been left with - he had options but didn’t give them the time of day after the first month of the season.

Just a bit of balance instead of me moaning at Jeff and Hobbs fwiw.

I’m a big GON fan but I agree with this. Without going all tin foil hat on it, part of me feels it was by design as both are on decent wages (not the silly ones certain outlets made out about Fabio) so perhaps he put them to one side to say they weren’t wanted and to free up the wages. Either way it’s not worked out for the best for anyone really.

 

[wolfslair]

I’m not slating Sasa, I’m just saying that I don’t think Broja was the player to push the boat out for in January. We tried to get him, and he would have been a low cost gamble and option off the bench when our other forwards were fit. But when we had competition from Fulham, he wasn’t worth overspending on, IMO.

Oh mate, I know you didn’t.

I was just saying I feel for sasa and people saying he didn’t do much when he played etc……..

He did what you want a striker to do and that is score goals and two of his goals were bloody massive for our season

 

[wolfslair]

And always those that complain, no matter how much their success.

Edit: I like Lemina's post, tiny squad, huge heart. That is how to motivate who and what we have, not bemoan our fate and blame the owners. It is as it is, a good management makes the most of it and plans ahead, the summer will be the test.

I don’t think anyone can knock the heart and commitment of the players in these hard times for them!

They have come together so well!

This bunch of lads has brought back that feeling from when Nuno first took over.

They are giving it there all, win lose or draw, you cannot help but support and fight for them like they deserve!!!!

 

[Jefe]

Maybe, maybe not. My point is that his stats for the past 18 months are worse than our forwards and when I watched him against a wide open Boro defence for 65 mins he did little, scored none and assisted none, yet his teammates scored 6. If we were talking about those stats in our team he would be slated on here. They are objective facts.

Now maybe GON could get him to perform but he didn’t get Fabio or Sasa buzzing before Christmas so maybe not.

I am not sure you can make your mind up about a player after an hour's observation, regardless of how anonymous he was or the standard of opposition (not least given our recent performance against Championship opposition). Broja's stats per minute are more than decent considering he's not at peak sharpness. If he was able to get a goal or assist the equivalent of every 1.8 games in minutes like he has hitherto managed, he would not be getting slated by Wolves fans.

I don't imagine we had an eye on him to out-compete our first-team forwards. Around the time, Neto had just come back from his hamstring and Hwang was being run ragged for Korea with heavy strapping on his leg. It didn't take Rasputin to predict what was coming next. Broja waiting in the wings would've been most welcome.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

That's more nonsense from Hobbs because it all comes back to the PSR.

As I keep explaining, this '£2.5m from the limit' cannot be right. It can't be. You're all able to look at the figures but they're banking on the fact a) you don't want to and b) you don't really know what they mean.

Then, when the figures do come out in 12 months time, they'll be hoping people don't care because hopefully we're doing well, and they'll spin it, such as highlighting a £113m loss over a two-year period even though £33m can be deducted. They will also claim finishing higher in the league than we forecast changed everything way more than it actually did.

So for him to talk about honesty and fair communication is laughable, but I also acknowledge it's not his fault, he is doing what he is told.

To then have our situation compared to Leeds or Everton just proves how it's working and how some of our fans are. Asking for us not to have the worst squad depth in the entire English professional divisions (O'Neil's words, not mine) is not demanding signing after signing and risking our future.


As for some of the arguments, I don't really get them. Saying he didn't use Fabio or Sasa is obviously factually correct, but he didn't use them because he had Cunha, Neto and Hwang. Why would you use the two inferior players? Results proved we didn't need them.

But if this injury situation happened in November, they would have quite clearly played.

You could perhaps argue his 'overloading them' comments shows he should've rotated, but O'Neil will counter that by saying he expected new signings in January, and he would've made changes then.

With his comments, O'Neil clearly didn't want to throw the others under the bus. So when they left, he didn't want to start moaning and risk losing the positive momentum we had at the time. I don't agree with that stance, but it's clear why he did it.

There's also undoubtedly self-preservation from O'Neil with his reaction after Burnley. I'm not a fan of that, as I feel he should've stood up to them in January. However, again, you can see why he has done it because he is right. He does have the worst squad depth £ for £ in English football, and he will also know that it's not PSR related, hence his 'financial reasons' and 'not sure if it's the club or PSR' comments.

You can rightly argue he knew what he walked into, and if O'Neil was complaining prior to January then he would be in the wrong. Wolves offered him the job a few weeks before the window shut and he knew that there wouldn't be much business done in that period.

However, I cannot believe for one second that he went into January and agreed to having two strikers sold and none coming in. So, the situation has changed quite significantly and he is within his rights to moan about that.

You always seem so absolutely positive on your opinion on our PSR situation when several football financial analysts have come up with different figures. You probably think I’m digging at you (sometimes I am because you come across as someone that if you found a tenner in the street you’d be annoyed it wasn’t £20) but the whole PSR bit is so murky even the experts seem confused. Ultimately we see the past in the companies accounts but not the present, only those at the club see those so I can’t fathom such surety in your belief on it. They had some top football finance expert on Talksport last week on about Forests position as he’d read the report and even he couldn’t understand it.

Genuine question, do you work in finance to understand it?

 

[SmiffyWolf]

I don’t think anyone can knock the heart and commitment of the players in these hard times for them!

They have come together so well!

This bunch of lads has brought back that feeling from when Nuno first took over.

They are giving it there all, win lose or draw, you cannot help but support and fight for them like they deserve!!!!

I think the players have done amazing this season. Let's just hope when the summer comes and clubs that might be in Europe come sniffing around they stay .

As a project of limited funds and selling before we can buy anyone might seem less appealing to go and play for teams that may challenge for things and show a little more ambition possibly.

Yes I understand FFP but if the FFP is in full swing I would say 16 clubs out of the 20 clubs in the prem need to shift multiple players not just one or two before they buy anyone. We shall see if that happens as we should be able to spend a reasonable amount before looking to sell.

 

[berwickwolf]

I don’t think anyone can knock the heart and commitment of the players in these hard times for them!

They have come together so well!

This bunch of lads has brought back that feeling from when Nuno first took over.

They are giving it there all, win lose or draw, you cannot help but support and fight for them like they deserve!!!!

Absolutely agreed! This is what I'd be emphasising in public if I were O Neill, not the negative

 

[brianm]

I think, regarding the state of the forward line, that GON also needs to look at himself and shoulder some of the blame. He’d been in the job, what, 3 months (?) and had decided that Sasa and Fabio weren’t for him so stopped playing them and bringing them on. He basically let them fester and froze them out to an extent so they both wanted to leave in January to play some football. He’s a good coach but surely could see the workload he was putting on 3 players in particular and surely could have adapted his plans to give Fabio and Sasa more game time, be it earlier subs or even the occasional start. He cant have it both ways and now passive aggressively moan about the options he’s been left with - he had options but didn’t give them the time of day after the first month of the season.

Just a bit of balance instead of me moaning at Jeff and Hobbs fwiw.

Sasa is not going to get healthy enough to be a premier league striker again. He has been crocked since summer and it hasn't gotten better.

Even before he did his other knee at Frankfurt, it was painful to watch him. He was a rehab job and now his career is probably effectively over.

Fabio Silva....idk, I don't want to keep going over it. I don't think he has a pulse as a prem player. I'm much happier playing enthusiastic kids than him.

I do think Gary was very naive with Hwang and especially Pedro Neto in the matches where they pulled up. I hope he remembers the lessons those injuries brought with them.

 

[Kebab Warrior]

Fosun want Wolves to become self-sustaining, so they are threatening to stop investing.

It is imperative for aspirational clubs to make best use of the allowable losses. If owners cannot
guarantee this, then they cannot function for the club.

We were on a razors edge. We of all clubs should know the risks of over spending.

 

[wolfslair]

Absolutely agreed! This is what I'd be emphasising in public if I were O Neill, not the negative

It is why I am so surprised by the post match comments if I am honest…… as for me, the performance was the best you could expect from a team as ravaged by injury as we are.

Judah and keen on the podcast said the stuff about the squad depth and striker came out of nowhere and wasn’t asked for.

For me, however the season ends, with the injuries we have, as long as the lads try their hardest and fight on the pitch I will back them and the manager!

These are crazy times, where for me effort means the world, they are handicapped by injuries and as long as they fight, I can accept any result that happens on the day good, bad or indifferent.

GON has done a great job, as many sides would have capitulated under the pressure and strain they have with the low squad numbers.

So I agree, let’s focus on the lads and the effort and commitment to the cause they are showing

 

[SingleMalt]

We were on a razors edge. We of all clubs should know the risks of over spending.

The shadow of Willian Jose should also loom over any thoughts of bringing in strikers in the January window. He was affordable but ultimately not good enough, I’m not convinced Broja would’ve been any more use to us than he was.

 

[QB Wolf]

That's not a rational response.

The club had, (still just about has if a miracle can be worked), the chance of a breakthrough season, with major financial and football advantages attached. Fosun took ultra-cautious steps when just a relatively small amount of risk was required, with not much downside.

It's moments like this that signify when a change of ownership may be required, nothing to do with the fatalistic taking the rough with the smooth. If Fosun cant take the club forward, and indeed threaten to take it backwards if the coach and best players abandon ship, then it is incumbent on them to find owners who can.

It's completely rational, expecting a struggling conglomerate to pump more millions into one of it's loss making business's is irrational, especially if doing so will break financial rules.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

I am not sure you can make your mind up about a player after an hour's observation, regardless of how anonymous he was or the standard of opposition (not least given our recent performance against Championship opposition). Broja's stats per minute are more than decent considering he's not at peak sharpness. If he was able to get a goal or assist the equivalent of every 1.8 games in minutes like he has hitherto managed, he would not be getting slated by Wolves fans.

I don't imagine we had an eye on him to out-compete our first-team forwards. Around the time, Neto had just come back from his hamstring and Hwang was being run ragged for Korea with heavy strapping on his leg. It didn't take Rasputin to predict what was coming next. Broja waiting in the wings would've been most welcome.

All I’m saying is that given his goal contributions over the past 18 months as I listed, and what I saw first hand in that game, and in snippets on tv in others, I just don’t think he was worth pushing the boat out for. I would have supported him had we signed him, and I’d hope Gary could have gotten the best out of him, but I don’t see anything in his recent form to suggest he would have competed with our existing forwards when fit. That’s the benchmark which Hobbs and Gary set for signing in January, not just benchwarmers. Sure he would have come in handy in recent weeks when Cunha, Hwang and Neto got injured, but my gut suggests had he been here, and playing as he has been, then he would have come in for plenty of stick on here.

I don’t think I’m being unreasonable.

 

[Kebab Warrior]

If I was Fosun I would also say to Gary that playing a high intensity / high press with such a small squad would lead to injuries (and it has). Were Nuno and Lop wiser in playing a lower intensity style with an eye on the long term over a season. Marathon not a sprint etc? Even if it was less exciting,

That’s probably unfair but it’s not just about tactics and systems it’s about managing what you’ve got.

 

[QB Wolf]

Ugh. This is the same boring non-sequitur that keeps cropping up.

Not as boring as 19 (-1) seasons in the second tier was.

Apologies to Mr Bull et al - I still enjoyed them!

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

You always seem so absolutely positive on your opinion on our PSR situation when several football financial analysts have come up with different figures. You probably think I’m digging at you (sometimes I am because you come across as someone that if you found a tenner in the street you’d be annoyed it wasn’t £20) but the whole PSR bit is so murky even the experts seem confused. Ultimately we see the past in the companies accounts but not the present, only those at the club see those so I can’t fathom such surety in your belief on it. They had some top football finance expert on Talksport last week on about Forests position as he’d read the report and even he couldn’t understand it.

Genuine question, do you work in finance to understand it?

I get your point generally about PSR but they've actually done the hard work for us.

Madeley and Keen have both said they've seen the forecast and they've both said that we're on course to beat the limit by £2.7m by May 2024. Part of that breakdown, as revealed by Madeley, is that we're forecasting to lose £39m this year, which is £22m towards PSR. That's why we're so close.

So, essentially we can rip everything back and simplify it for us. Do you think we've lost that amount this year?

I don't see how it can be possible. I know how the amortisation works, and I've got it at around £70m that we're due to pay (that's a similar figure to last season, as you would expect). I know the revenues from last season, and they can be roughly the same. The wage bill has to have dropped by a significant amount.

Then we have the profit on transfers, and I also know how that works. That has to be around the £80m mark on pure profit.

I don't work in accounting but I've read a lot about PSR in the past six months or so, and a friend who is an accountant/football fan had the same thought process.

To be fair though, it doesn't take a genius to work this out, does it?

We announced a loss of £67m for the 22/23 season and it's easy to see why! We spent massively on Nunes, Guedes, Collins, Kalajdzic etc. Some significant fees and the wage bill would rocket. That's easy to understand/accept.

To claim we lost £39m after what we did this summer is not one that makes sense and I can't find any possible explanation for it being true, which is why I say it with such confidence.

Imagine a club doing what we did in the summer and still losing £39m!! It's insane.

 

[wolvesjoe]

It's completely rational, expecting a struggling conglomerate to pump more millions into one of it's loss making business's is irrational, especially if doing so will break financial rules.

Rational to run down one of your businesses, and the one that is most well-known.

 

[wolvesjoe]

We were on a razors edge. We of all clubs should know the risks of over spending.

We had a 83m net surplus on player trading and a significantly reduced wage, but we were on "a razor's edge".

Yeah right.

 

[Wolf316]

Rumours of points deductions being binned off in favour of a luxury tax may change things massively for the premier league.

 

[Kebab Warrior]

We had a 83m net surplus on player trading and a significantly reduced wage, but we were on "a razor's edge".

Yeah right.

The reports were that we were within 2m of breaching FFP/PSR based on finishing 17th. Yes we could finish higher and got more prize money but it was deemed too risky.

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

Rumours of points deductions being binned off in favour of a luxury tax may change things massively for the premier league.

Saves the ass of Chelsea, Villa, Newcastle and Man City very conveniently

Just carry on spending while the likes of Wolves, Brentford and Brighton follow the little rule book

Unlikely but could happen Guo could turn around and lend Wolves 1bn. Oh go and compete with the big boys. Mendes will come good for us again lol

 

[Summer_Wolf]

How can any coach or manager employed under Fosun possibly do any forward planning whatsoever? They can plan all they like with Hobbs and the recruitment team etc only to have the goalposts changed at the last second.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

I get your point generally about PSR but they've actually done the hard work for us.

Madeley and Keen have both said they've seen the forecast and they've both said that we're on course to beat the limit by £2.7m by May 2024. Part of that breakdown, as revealed by Madeley, is that we're forecasting to lose £39m this year, which is £22m towards PSR. That's why we're so close.

So, essentially we can rip everything back and simplify it for us. Do you think we've lost that amount this year?

I don't see how it can be possible. I know how the amortisation works, and I've got it at around £70m that we're due to pay (that's a similar figure to last season, as you would expect). I know the revenues from last season, and they can be roughly the same. The wage bill has to have dropped by a significant amount.

Then we have the profit on transfers, and I also know how that works. That has to be around the £80m mark on pure profit.

I don't work in accounting but I've read a lot about PSR in the past six months or so, and a friend who is an accountant/football fan had the same thought process.

To be fair though, it doesn't take a genius to work this out, does it?

We announced a loss of £67m for the 22/23 season and it's easy to see why! We spent massively on Nunes, Guedes, Collins, Kalajdzic etc. Some significant fees and the wage bill would rocket. That's easy to understand/accept.

To claim we lost £39m after what we did this summer is not one that makes sense and I can't find any possible explanation for it being true, which is why I say it with such confidence.

Imagine a club doing what we did in the summer and still losing £39m!! It's insane.

It’s still as clear as mud to me and I generally have a reasonable comprehension of these sorts of things having worked in the financial services industry for 28 years (albeit in the Insurance side not banking or investments, I’m sure if I worked that side I’d understand it more).

The only thing I think (purely opinion based) is I don’t see why Fosun / Shi and definitely Hobbs would risk their credibility if the difference is so much from the projected figures and the ones you suggest. There’s a big difference from £2 million to tens of millions. If you’re right, I’d will personally want Shi and Hobbs removed immediately and you are welcome to sticky this post!

 

[SakosRightFoot]

It’s still as clear as mud to me and I generally have a reasonable comprehension of these sorts of things having worked in the financial services industry for 28 years (albeit in the Insurance side not banking or investments, I’m sure if I worked that side I’d understand it more).

The only thing I think (purely opinion based) is I don’t see why Fosun / Shi and definitely Hobbs would risk their credibility if the difference is so much from the projected figures and the ones you suggest. There’s a big difference from £2 million to tens of millions. If you’re right, I’d will personally want Shi and Hobbs removed immediately and you are welcome to sticky this post!

We had a bit of this discussion on the verdict thread last night. The problem overall is that people can only really look back whereas the club are talking about future projections and that makes it difficult as they don't match up.

I also think having looked through the accounts we are ignoring how much bonus payments and add ons are due, plus loan rates. There is a habit understandable as it is to always simplify things to transfer figures in and out, but I don't think its that simple and football doesn't really work that way. For example, when people talk about the wage bill dropping because certain players left, they seem to discount new contracts, standard wage rises, bonuses, loyalty payments to players who depart, lopetegui and staff clearly had to be paid off too.

I also think theres a confusion around the £39 million loss figure, i'm almost certain that is pre transfers, ie after player trading is taken into account we will post a profit and thats why we will be under the PSR limits.

 

[SuperGran]

We had a bit of this discussion on the verdict thread last night. The problem overall is that people can only really look back whereas the club are talking about future projections and that makes it difficult as they don't match up.

I also think having looked through the accounts we are ignoring how much bonus payments and add ons are due, plus loan rates. There is a habit understandable as it is to always simplify things to transfer figures in and out, but I don't think its that simple and football doesn't really work that way. For example, when people talk about the wage bill dropping because certain players left, they seem to discount new contracts, standard wage rises, bonuses, loyalty payments to players who depart, lopetegui and staff clearly had to be paid off too.

I also think theres a confusion around the £39 million loss figure, i'm almost certain that is pre transfers, ie after player trading is taken into account we will post a profit and thats why we will be under the PSR limits.

The payoffs for Bruno plus staff and lopetegui plus staff are unknown exactly but included in the losses

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

We had a bit of this discussion on the verdict thread last night. The problem overall is that people can only really look back whereas the club are talking about future projections and that makes it difficult as they don't match up.

I also think having looked through the accounts we are ignoring how much bonus payments and add ons are due, plus loan rates. There is a habit understandable as it is to always simplify things to transfer figures in and out, but I don't think its that simple and football doesn't really work that way. For example, when people talk about the wage bill dropping because certain players left, they seem to discount new contracts, standard wage rises, bonuses, loyalty payments to players who depart, lopetegui and staff clearly had to be paid off too.

I also think theres a confusion around the £39 million loss figure, i'm almost certain that is pre transfers, ie after player trading is taken into account we will post a profit and thats why we will be under the PSR limits.

It’s why it’s a debate I don’t really get involved in as it’s far too “grey” to understand fully in my opinion plus because we don’t see the current figures or projected ones it’s really is in my opinion total guess work. It’s one where I’ll trust those in power purely on the basis that it’s their credibility at stake if it’s horribly wrong.

 

[QB Wolf]

Rational to run down one of your businesses, and the one that is most well-known.

They've spent 271m euros in the last 2 years, the business isn't being run down, it's being run sensibly. Yes I know we've recouped money and I know some has been wasted, but it's still serious investment, but some people still want more.

 

[Bawtry Wolf]

Well tomorrow’s press conference will be interesting. Listening to Judah and Keen it’s clear they recognise that hares are running and by keep stirring they might encourage 1 or 2 people to subscribe to the E&S. must admit Keen does grate and he was in full Fosun defence mode. However, I would expect questions to be asked if GON tomorrow and post match and he’ll most likely answer.

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

It’s still as clear as mud to me and I generally have a reasonable comprehension of these sorts of things having worked in the financial services industry for 28 years (albeit in the Insurance side not banking or investments, I’m sure if I worked that side I’d understand it more).

The only thing I think (purely opinion based) is I don’t see why Fosun / Shi and definitely Hobbs would risk their credibility if the difference is so much from the projected figures and the ones you suggest. There’s a big difference from £2 million to tens of millions. If you’re right, I’d will personally want Shi and Hobbs removed immediately and you are welcome to sticky this post!

Fair enough.

A lot of the issue had been on the 'allowable deductions', because we don't know what they are or how much they account for. The big one we hear for allowable deductions is the stadium, and we obviously know that we haven't spent on the stadium to a significant degree. Therefore, it's been tempting to think that our allowable deductions would be really low.

However, Madeley's article, via Wolves, has revealed that our allowable deductions are around £15m a year.

From the outside, we announce losses of £113m over two years, and as a fan you naturally think that we're really close to the limit which is £105m. But we're not. Because of that Madeley article, we can see we lost £80m for PSR. So, that's a big difference.

I don't think we're on to make a massive profit this summer, because the amortisation is a problem. I reckon we'll announce profits of £10-20m. So even after all the work we did, we're only making a small profit in the grand scheme of things.

But, if that's right, we'll be around £30-40m away from the limit.

This isn't me demanding that they spend by the way. I'm not doing that at all, I just hate the fact they're saying we can't.

 

[SakosRightFoot]

It’s why it’s a debate I don’t really get involved in as it’s far too “grey” to understand fully in my opinion plus because we don’t see the current figures or projected ones it’s really is in my opinion total guess work. It’s one where I’ll trust those in power purely on the basis that it’s their credibility at stake if it’s horribly wrong.

Agreed, it doesn't really make sense why they would lie about their financial calculations. People seem to either want a conspiracy to hold us back or just want to spend someone elses money.

Weird thing is Fosun literally wrote us all a letter before the season started saying we were having a down year spending wise to get back on track, the manager at the time walked out 6 days before the season because of it. Now people seem annoyed they didn't change their minds halfway through the season and throw money at a possible top 7 finish, forgetting UEFA's rules are stricter than the Prems and we broke them last time we'd deffo break them this time too sofor all the enjoyment we'd get from a european adventure it would mean probably more cuts

 

[wwbug]

I still honestly think you have to work with what you have, so if you have Sasa, you tweak your style of play to accomdate him if you dont have other options. You dont have to do it every game, but you need to do it with a thin forward line.

Whatever system we play I don't think Sasa can be relied upon to keep fit.