Will Fosun realise?

[Matt]

I'm sorry but I just can't agree.

Who are these mythical senior strikers we could have got as back up for Raul that would have a) come here to sit on the bench b) would have been an adequate back up and c) would have been in our wage budget? Danny Ings? 100K in wages and 4 goals in his last 50 games? Fabio was better than that. Please don't say Welbeck, Watkins, Toney etc because they weren't as good as Raul at the time and wouldn't have come here to be understudies in a million years.

And I don't know how many times this has to be gone over but Fabio and Sasa had to go before anyone else could have been brought in the last window and the club tried everything to bring in new strikers

It is absolute madness to suggest there is nobody we could possibly have signed to back Raul up, we pay people a lot of money to sort these problems out.

Your last paragraph is just made up, no matter how many times you want to go over it.

 

[Lobo de Ouro]

They realise and understand a lot more than people often give them credit for.

Will the fans realise what the constraints are and what they actually mean? Is a more pertinent question.

 

[wolvesjoe]

Assuming your right,and id argue a few points there,who or where do you see the next owners coming from?
Fosun have been asking for investors for years with no takers that im aware of
Whoever takes over would have the same problems
Basically a loss making business,with the potential of having to invest 100s of millions to make a new stadium that has no guarantee of ever showing a profit?
Would any sane business model do that?

Elite football, by and large, is not a sane business in the conventional sense. Its about status, excitement, spectacle and so on.

(Although an awful lot of people do make a handsome living out of the game.)

Having said that it is possible to make money at the very top of the game, especially if the 70% cap comes into being. If
Wolves or any other aspirational club could break into the top group, then they will make money.

A more general statement, however, is simply that this is how it is. You want to participate, then you need deep pockets.
Fosun had that, (remember the famous quote from the very first press conference: "Money, no problem"), but no longer are
able to provide that guarantee.

What they still offer is intelligence and diligence in how they run the club. This should be recognised and praised. Wolves are a well-run club, that both maintains its values and improves the club where it can, be it sports science, scouting, the academy, women's team or community initiative.

Unfortunately, this is not sufficient in the ruthless world of elite football, and the total fiasco of January demonstrates that all too clearly. Failing to back Oneil will probably lead, in simple financial terms, a loss of 30m in potential income this season, plus more than that for not qualifying for Europe. Catastrophic business decision-making.

But this is what happens when you dont have a fully funded and commited strategy.

 

[Bill McCai]

When you think back to Hobbs telling Cunha how the 'project was back on' when he signed you wonder how much Hobbs/Shi were actually aware of what was going on with the regulations.

 

[Scallywolf]

I do think we are only useful to Fosun whilst we are in the Premier League.

The brand, their reputation and the global coverage and support would change dramatically if we were in the Championship. They would surely have to consider if we are an asset to them in those circumstances.

As I mentioned in the opening post, I am just relieved that our injuries did not occur 10 league matches ago, otherwise we would be in relegation trouble imo. No adequate replacements to a decimated strike force and having to rely on Academy kids is an embarrassment that hopefully Fosun will learn from.

 

[wolvesjoe]

When you think back to Hobbs telling Cunha how the 'project was back on' when he signed you wonder how much Hobbs/Shi were actually aware of what was going on with the regulations.

Its an interesting point.

My view is that the club did have to be careful at the start of 23/24, as they were down to the 30m safety margin they most likely operate with. There was little wiggle room, which is what Lopetegui walked away from.

With all the sales of last summer, however, this season will see the club into a very favourable position for next season.

That position also suits Fosun in their search for buyers or investors.

They could have invested this January or even at the end of the transfer window last summer, but chose
to only offer minimum amounts. This season's accounts, imv, will show a significant profit on this year, including
player sales.

Ironically, however, there will be less available as Wolves fall down the league, will lead to 20m less on the merit payments, plus
being knocked out of the cup, plus not qualifying for Europe.

I am sure Shi is well aware of all this, but Matt Hobbs must be operating with a budget that is given to him.

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

When you think back to Hobbs telling Cunha how the 'project was back on' when he signed you wonder how much Hobbs/Shi were actually aware of what was going on with the regulations.

This is another thing that should have people questioning PSR.

As you say, Shi said this. So, people who believe PSR is a massive problem actually believe that Jeff Shi, our CEO, didn't know what was going on.

For all the criticism I give him, I'm not one of those. Is he really that daft? I don't think so.

Something significant changed between January 2023 and the summer in terms of Fosun's approach, and PSR was the perfect excuse.

As well as that, do we really believe that Lopetegui and his army behind him didn't once check the books? Again, hard to believe. We're talking professional people from all sides here and none of them realised we were supposedly months away from a crisis, even though this thing is three years in the making?

Don't get me wrong, this is not me saying we could have spent tens of millions, we couldn't. However, there was/is room to do more than we did.

 

[Stratman Wolves]

Well, will they?

We have played 29 games in the Premier League and thankfully, are safe from relegation.

Hypothetical, I know, but what if the injuries we are currently suffering, had occurred 10 matches ago? I dread to think, but a relegation battle may well have been on the cards imo.

A paper thin squad, with no attacking threat, no forward line and having to rely on our Academy kids. A substitutes bench that is an embarrassment and playing square pegs in round holes!

We could easily have been in a relegation battle, but GON and his staff have exceeded all expectations and proved the doubters wrong. They are doing a great job in the circumstances imo.

Will Fosun realise that they have a very good head coach/ manager and backroom staff in their employment and what they could do if suppled with the resources. I bloody well hope so!

Most clubs suffer with injuries throughout the season, but have experienced players available who can step in and compete. Villa and Newcastle are prime examples. Who have we got?

I just hope Fosun realise and do something about it.

Insanity is seeing the same thing and expecting different results each time.

 

[Werewolf of Wombourne]

It is absolute madness to suggest there is nobody we could possibly have signed to back Raul up, we pay people a lot of money to sort these problems out.

Your last paragraph is just made up, no matter how many times you want to go over it.

Nobody said we couldn't have got somebody, we could have got a bloke from League 1 easily. The point is whether we could have got anyone who would have been an adequate replacement and better than what we had. We still had Paul Gladon on the books but no-one suggested he would have been an adequate back up. The club signed a back up in Cutrone, who was an excellent signing on paper. You can't blame the club for the player not being able to settle in England.

But this idea that we could have got a proven Premier League goalscorer in as a back up to Raul is just plain fantasy land.

As for my final paragraph, that came straight from GON and Hobbs, not me. Are you saying that you know more about the situation than they did? or that they were just plain lying to us to cover Jeff's ****?

 

[Matt]

Nobody said we couldn't have got somebody, we could have got a bloke from League 1 easily. The point is whether we could have got anyone who would have been an adequate replacement and better than what we had. We still had Paul Gladon on the books but no-one suggested he would have been an adequate back up. The club signed a back up in Cutrone, who was an excellent signing on paper. You can't blame the club for the player not being able to settle in England.

But this idea that we could have got a proven Premier League goalscorer in as a back up to Raul is just plain fantasy land.

As for my final paragraph, that came straight from GON and Hobbs, not me. Are you saying that you know more about the situation than they did? or that they were just plain lying to us to cover Jeff's ****?

Nobody wanted a proven Premier League goalscorer, just someone capable of contributing. Nobody should be a “back up” anyway, you sign players to compete. To imply that it was impossible to have another striker capable of contributing is just daft sorry.

Well, they do tow the company line to some extent yes. Where did they say that out of interest? I can point you to an article where GON says Sasa wouldn’t be going anywhere until we had a replacement in.

 

[Leigh72]

Season Ticket renewal prices going to be very interesting, I reckon getting knocked out the cup has scuppered the release date, an increase in price was on the way ,slipped in with the europhoria of a Wembley Semi-Final.

Going to be difficult to spin it now, we can surmise by the lateness of it, that they are not coming down. (Ever)

 

[lets all have a disco]

People forget we tried massively for Tammy Abraham in January 2019 to be Raul back up...before his injury..he chose Villa over us ....Very similar to Broja picking Fulham over us....

 

[Black Country Wanderer]

Season Ticket renewal prices going to be very interesting, I reckon getting knocked out the cup has scuppered the release date, an increase in price was on the way ,slipped in with the europhoria of a Wembley Semi-Final.

Going to be difficult to spin it now, we can surmise by the lateness of it, that they are not coming down. (Ever)

On what basis would you think they were coming down ?
It will be a 5% minimum increase just to keep in line with inflation over the year

 

[Jefe]

I don't buy that Wolves couldn't get a decent understudy or competitor for Raul. The Cutrone signing was pretty ill-advised, given that he reportedly didn't want to come. The Fabio signing was almost inexplicable considering he could have been acquired for a fraction of the price earlier. This in turn would have allowed us to manage his minutes better with a more oven-ready striker signed with the remainder. As mentioned by others, there are clubs who have fared okay after losing their best striker.

 

[SuperGran]

People forget we tried massively for Tammy Abraham in January 2019 to be Raul back up...before his injury..he chose Villa over us ....Very similar to Broja picking Fulham over us....

He didn’t choose Villa he was on loan at Villa Chelsea wouldn’t sell him at that time we couldn’t loan him as he’d already played for two clubs. Villa were in the championship

 

[lets all have a disco]

He didn’t choose Villa he was on loan at Villa Chelsea wouldn’t sell him at that time we couldn’t loan him as he’d already played for two clubs. Villa were in the championship

Yes....was a bit off.....but we tried to bring him in...

 

[Contrarian]

Fosun's stated aim was to crash the top 6 and European Football. Of course, that was a 'lifetime ago' in a football perspective. So, this season has not been a success when we're finishing mid-table. I'd even argue that mid-table and not really competing for trophies is no success at all. We are an also-ran, making up the numbers and the only reason people are considering the season a success is because of the low expectations at the start.
We believed that two consecutive 7th places and the Europa League were successes, now we're happy with around 10th and no European football. Just shows how low our expectations have fallen!

We used to dream of having a steady mid-table Premier League team. Many thought at best we'd get a couple of seasons here and there in the Premier League, which would be spent just surviving. This is what Championship teams dream of. And all we could imagine during the 30+ years of perennial Championship football priot to Fosun.

It also shows how HIGH expectations have risen in the past 5 years, since the previous 30 years!

I'm no apologist for Loppy, but he walked away from such a situation. Even his ambitions were higher!
In Nuno's last season, we finished 13th, Lage had us 10th. Both were considered relative failures, not successes. Now, some of us are considering a similar position a 'success'. As I said, our expectation were so low at the start of the season, that most would have snatched your hand off for 17th, so from that perspective, mid-table is a success, but in real terms it's mid-table obscurity (albeit Premier League obscurity).

I don't see what's wrong with that. You don't get from A to B without passing the places in between. It's a highly competitive league, all the clubs are trying to push each other down. We have no divine right to go up the table each season.

One day, we'll inevitably be back in the Championship and we'll be dreaming of mid-table obscurity in the Premier League, as we look at a fixture list of Barnsley, Peterboro & Bristol C rather than Man C, Liverpool and ... Luton.

 

[Leigh72]

On what basis would you think they were coming down ?
It will be a 5% minimum increase just to keep in line with inflation over the year

I didn't think they were coming down

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

Have people forgot that we are under a new financial model… Self sufficiency

 

[Flump]

he Cutrone signing was pretty ill-advised, given that he reportedly didn't want to come.

I think that's a bit simplistic to only look at that as he failed - there were lots of rumours of Boly not wanting to sign (I'm sure I remember people saying for us to "move on") and he turned out fine, and I can't imagine any of our first lot (Neves, Jota) were desperate to play for us, if they'd even heard of us at all.

 

[steve vena]

I bet he really appreciates that. Tell him about rickets, the blitz and outside toilets as well.

Class.

 

[Bill McCai]

This season (23/24) the renewal prices were the same as the new season ticket prices the year before (22/23), I would expect the same this year.

 

[Andywolf74]

Other than survival against the odds last season, I feel the other best thing to come out of JL's brief spell with us, was both he and Matt Hobbs identifying that we'd been spending a lot of money on players that weren't the right fit for the Premier League. This in addition to addressing some of these issues with a pretty significant outlay in Jan 2023 is largely the reason we are where we are with financial fair play.
We simply haven't been able to spend as before without incurring a catastrophic points deduction and for me the time to seriously question Fosun's financial backing for GON will come when we're not treading such a fine line between recruitment and ffp.
Without question, GON deserves huge credit for delivering what a far more experienced manager felt he was unable to do.

 

[SmiffyWolf]

They realise and understand a lot more than people often give them credit for.

Will the fans realise what the constraints are and what they actually mean? Is a more pertinent question.

Can you name any Chinese owners of football clubs that have been successful over a reasonable length of time in football at the top level?

I can name a few that haven't and have moved on from various clubs .

Just been honest as for me I don't see a strategy in the last 3 seasons at Wolves .And nothing so far in recent months thinks it will be any different next season. But I bet the season ticket prices will go up and the ground will be left with little or nothing done to it in the ways of repair or sprucing it up a bit .

 

[Werewolf of Wombourne]

Nobody wanted a proven Premier League goalscorer, just someone capable of contributing. Nobody should be a “back up” anyway, you sign players to compete. To imply that it was impossible to have another striker capable of contributing is just daft sorry.

Well, they do tow the company line to some extent yes. Where did they say that out of interest? I can point you to an article where GON says Sasa wouldn’t be going anywhere until we had a replacement in.

Originally it was in an press conference but it was reported then in the E&S

Gary O'Neil offers update on Wolves' striker search

Gary O'Neil is 'confident' Wolves will bring a striker in before the end of the month after their goalless draw with Brighton.

www.expressandstar.com

This was after the interview you reference where he says Sasa would be staying

 

[Jefe]

I think that's a bit simplistic to only look at that as he failed - there were lots of rumours of Boly not wanting to sign (I'm sure I remember people saying for us to "move on") and he turned out fine, and I can't imagine any of our first lot (Neves, Jota) were desperate to play for us, if they'd even heard of us at all.

True that Boly apparently needed convincing, but he was an older and more mature man. I doubt Neves or Jota would've signed for Wolves if not for the large Portuguese contingent joining them. It was like home away from home. For Cutrone, being a 21 year old boy and IIRC the only Italian in the squad (Italians are said to especially suffer home sickness and a yearning to be with kin) I can see why it turned out as it did.

 

[YouGottaRaulWithIt]

You cannot agree that we didn’t have ample back up when we started one season with rauls hip injury WITH NO STRIKER!!!!!!!!

Lage was crap, but they set him up to fail on that one!!!!

Then who goes into a season with Jimenez and a fresh 18 year old as their only strikers????

Facts are facts, twice we were woefully under manned in the striker position.

And we let both go and NO ONE came in…….

So yeah fosun, smashing the recruitment for strikers out the park mate….., nothing to see here….. doing a great job! NOT

 

[Axle]

ten years ago we were taking 10k to Milton Keynes Dons in League One. theyve made a lot of mistakes but they have also given me the best Wolves i have ever seen in my 30+ years of supporting the club, and i am eternally grateful to them

Was amazing! That’s the kind of thing that makes prospective owners take notice and think that this is a special club

 

[Matt]

Originally it was in an press conference but it was reported then in the E&S

Gary O'Neil offers update on Wolves' striker search

Gary O'Neil is 'confident' Wolves will bring a striker in before the end of the month after their goalless draw with Brighton.

www.expressandstar.com

This was after the interview you reference where he says Sasa would be staying

Thanks for that. I mean that reads to me very much like towing the company line, doesn’t it? It’s a clear shift from what he was saying in December and the start of January. He said there it’ll be a loan, and then we went and bid £10m+ for the Brazilian lad. We also said at the end of the summer window that we didn’t need to sell Nunes, as we were already ok for FFP/PSR. There are mixed messages all the time coming from the club/sources connected to the club which makes it difficult to accept anything the club says at face value.

 

[Wolf316]

View attachment 41593

That the VAR team for our last game of the season?

 

[crocos]

I keep telling my 8 year old son how lucky he is to be watching wolves at the moment compared to what I saw as a young lad!

My boy's the same age and it's the same message to him each time we watch a game; mind you, I'm an older dad [55] and grew up with us in the top flight and 2 x League Cup Final wins! But the point remains the same - he thinks it's entirely normal to have us in Europe / Cup semis / high league finishes etc, regularly beating the big boys etc, even if the past few seasons have challenged him a bit more.

He also thinks it's entirely normal to see England in Semis & Finals too FWIW

 

[Lobo de Ouro]

Can you name any Chinese owners of football clubs that have been successful over a reasonable length of time in football at the top level?

I can name a few that haven't and have moved on from various clubs .

Just been honest as for me I don't see a strategy in the last 3 seasons at Wolves .And nothing so far in recent months thinks it will be any different next season. But I bet the season ticket prices will go up and the ground will be left with little or nothing done to it in the ways of repair or sprucing it up a bit .

First paragraph is totally irrelevant.

Second part.... of the first choice 11 right now (when everyone is fit):

Sa
Kilman
Dawson
Toti
Ait Nouri
Semedo
Lemina
Gomes
Neto
Sarabia
Cunha

....seven were bought within the last three years. And we are having by far our best season in three years. So surely there are signs of a strategy.... or they just keep getting lucky?

 

[Adrian_Monk]

You're talking about senior strikers like they're as uncommon as the tooth fairy, father Christmas or Spiderman.

It does always amuse me when people pose the 'well who would you have bought?' question......like we are all sat at home in front of fbref watching live streams from football at all levels around the world tapping stats into our database. They are the same people who are paradoxically quick to heap praise on our scouting team for finding hidden gems, blissfully unaware of their contradiction.

The beauty of the 'who would you have bought?' question is there's no right answer. If you give a relatively unknown name that has been moderately successful, you'll be told 'they've hardly pulled up any trees at x' (even though they could quite easily have had a different outcome here), if you go for a relatively unknown name that has been pretty decent (like Awoniyi, for example) then it's 'anyone could have said him with the benefit of hindsight' or 'they wouldn't have come here to sit on our bench' (even though most even up-and-coming strikers will back themselves to force their way into a manager's plans and score goals, regardless of who is in front of them)

 

[wolfslair]

First paragraph is totally irrelevant.

Second part.... of the first choice 11 right now (when everyone is fit):

Sa
Kilman
Dawson
Toti
Ait Nouri
Semedo
Lemina
Gomes
Neto
Sarabia
Cunha

....seven were bought within the last three years. And we are having by far our best season in three years. So surely there are signs of a strategy.... or they just keep getting lucky?

And where is the strength in depth?????

We have a very good first 11, but very very little after that! We had too many “kids” on the bench in the early part of the season…. Look at most match day threads, people happy with the 11 but worried about the bench.

This crisis with injuries was always looming! We only have FOUR cb’s when we operate in a three…. That is scandalous! We are lucky the injury bug hasn’t hit us harder than Dawson! Or a suspension sprinkled in for good measure.

Football is a squad game and this injury period has shown that FOSUN have very little ability to build an actual full squad that is competitive as it isn’t the first time injuries have hit us and we have no strength in depth……

 

[Lobo de Ouro]

And where is the strength in depth?????

We have a very good first 11, but very very little after that! We had too many “kids” on the bench in the early part of the season…. Look at most match day threads, people happy with the 11 but worried about the bench.

This crisis with injuries was always looming! We only have FOUR cb’s when we operate in a three…. That is scandalous! We are lucky the injury bug hasn’t hit us harder than Dawson! Or a suspension sprinkled in for good measure.

Football is a squad game and this injury period has shown that FOSUN have very little ability to build an actual full squad that is competitive as it isn’t the first time injuries have hit us and we have no strength in depth……

There is no strength in depth. That is a problem.

But with those problems we're still having our best season for three years. You're arguing a point I didn't make.

 

[Asthmatic Wolf]

I keep telling my 8 year old son how lucky he is to be watching wolves at the moment compared to what I saw as a young lad!

What did you see DJL? I’ve seen things too

 

[wolfslair]

There is no strength in depth. That is a problem.

But with those problems we're still having our best season for three years. You're arguing a point I didn't make.

You said that the 11 shows there is a strategy….

If I take your point as it looks, then the strategy is to build a house on foundations of sand! As the strategy was to build an 11 and not have a proper squad and that isn’t a strategy….. well it isn’t one for a competent ownership team.

To have a proper strategy in elite sport to then have a competitive team you need an 11 and strength in depth and in that regard they have failed miserably.

To only build a good 11, they have only done part of the job or part of a strategy….. they haven’t completed one in any way shape or form

 

[Asthmatic Wolf]

I've stopped worrying about all this after years of driving myself crazy with it.

The simple reality (for me anyway) is that Fosun don't have that ambition or desire to move this club onto the next level.

They are ultimately more than happy to continue developing the brand and maintain our premier league status.

What I'm going to try and do as a fan now is simply enjoying watching these young, talented players we've seen over the years (Neves, Jota, Neto, Ait Nouri, Gomes etc) and not think too much about the bigger picture.

Ultimately I expect them to do very little in the summer market again and that pattern to continue over the next few years.

I agree with this to a large extent as frustrating as it is - but the benefit of this approach is it will make us much more saleable as an asset and going concern.

Whilst we are riding high I am hopeful that they are looking for the right buyer which would probably be the best outcome all round.

 

[Skrilla]

Another thread where FFP is conveniently ignored, despite it being in the spotlight for the majority of the season with multiple teams facing points deductions, and it being very well documented that we were on the verge of breaching in January. Please do not mistake wanting to spend with being able to spend. They aren't the same.

Next summer we likely have significantly more breathing room compared to last summer, I would wager that's the case because of a reduced wage and amortisation bill, as well as knowing we're able to "match" the 21/22 year where we made £46m losses. If we want to make any "marquee signings" then most likely there will be at least one 'big sale' to help fund them - most likely Neto or Gomes if I had to guess.

You can want our owners to be ambitious, but if you're going to blindly forget to mention FFP as a mitigating factor, then it's just ignorance. I'm not saying they can't be criticised, we've had some howlers in recent years with the likes of Cutrone, Silva, Guedes, Sasa, but it's not been for lack of trying. They are spending what they can...

 

[berwickwolf]

You said that the 11 shows there is a strategy….

If I take your point as it looks, then the strategy is to build a house on foundations of sand! As the strategy was to build an 11 and not have a proper squad and that isn’t a strategy….. well it isn’t one for a competent ownership team.

To have a proper strategy in elite sport to then have a competitive team you need an 11 and strength in depth and in that regard they have failed miserably.

To only build a good 11, they have only done part of the job or part of a strategy….. they haven’t completed one in any way shape or form

Well, according to your very strongly repeated criticism at the start of the season, Fosun were making a massive mistake getting O Neill as manager. All your in the know, up to data date mates all knew he was terrible too and no one in your circle of football expert contacts rated him. Now you know more than Fosun in its long term strategy for our club. Our house is built on sand and our owners are incompetent.
It just seems that your opinion clashes with reality. We are competitive. We are in the top half of the league. We didn't get a no 9 in January, but the ones we wanted fell through at the last minute, and to get 4 strikers injured is damn bad luck.
No owners could forsee the pandemic, although perhaps you did, but the reality is that there have been setbacks, we do need new signings and the stadium needs improvement, but Wolves are now an established premier league side with some of the best players we've seen for many years.
Perhaps you might moderate your criticism and also accept there's a difference between opinion and fact.