West Midland Teams

[Wolves Heathen]

Every senior West Midland Team lost again this weekend, Considering we are allegedly the 2nd City why is it that the West Midland Teams Wolves, Villa, Blues, Boggies have found it so difficult to get in amongst the so called big 6 more or less since the formation of the Premier League ?, Is it because the London Teams obviously have a pull being the capital, then the North West come next with nowhere else coming even remotely close to getting established as a regular Champions League team, yes I understand that most of our Teams have been pretty much poorly run for a lot of these years including us, but is there any other reason we as an area have found it so difficult to even attract megabucks owners never mind challenge for honours, as an aside its going to be interesting how Newcastle fare over the coming years.

 

[glorybox]

Money. And power.

 

[Big Saft Kid]

Good question. Basically, I think it's to do with the relative wealth of the West Midlands area, which has plummeted in the last 50 years. This has made the place a less attractive place to work, live, and own property. London and the S East generally have been the big winners. The North is more complicated because the attractions are more concentrated, chiefly in Manchester and Liverpool. I lived in Manchester for a couple of years and it is a great city, far more attractive on every level than Birmingham in my opinion. But when you think that, 60 and more years ago, Preston, Bolton, Blackburn, Blackpool, Burnley were all permanent fixtures in the top division, it shows how much of the old industrial north is also as depressed as the West Midlands. Wealth in this country is the key and it is less equally distributed than it used to be, geographically speaking.

 

[Minimalist]

Always been playing catch-up in the modern era.
For a start I think you absolutely need a 60k + stadium to genuinely and consistently be part of the top set of clubs.

 

[sedgwolf1980]

London is London, no explanation needed for those clubs. United and Liverpool are the biggest clubs in the country. City managed to buy themselves a golden ticket moments before the draw bridge got pulled up. Indeed, they helped blow it up.

I live in Manchester however my heart is always in Wolverhampton but even in saying that I’m not even going to get into a debate with those who wear gold and black blinkers and refuse to accept the fact that the midlands (rightly or wrongly) is never going to be seen as an attractive place to live, relative to the north west. Newcastle will have exactly the same issue in my opinion.

I don’t see how any club outside the current big six are going to sustainably crack it for at least another generation. It’s simply not feasible, irrespective of money.

 

[WickedWolfie]

London is London, no explanation needed for those clubs. United and Liverpool are the biggest clubs in the country. City managed to buy themselves a golden ticket moments before the draw bridge got pulled up. Indeed, they helped blow it up.

I live in Manchester however my heart is always in Wolverhampton but even in saying that I’m not even going to get into a debate with those who wear gold and black blinkers and refuse to accept the fact that the midlands (rightly or wrongly) is never going to be seen as an attractive place to live, relative to the north west. Newcastle will have exactly the same issue in my opinion.

I don’t see how any club outside the current big six are going to sustainably crack it for at least another generation. It’s simply not feasible, irrespective of money.

There are parts of the North West which are perceived as attractive to live in. Similarly there are such places in the Midlands. However, having lived down South for way too long l can safely say that few people there would willingly move to either.

 

[Big Saft Kid]

"London is London" but if you go back six or seven decades, London clubs weren't that big or dominant. During the 50s, the two big power houses in English football were us and Man U. In the ten seasons from 1950 to 1960, Man U won the league 3 times, we won it 3 times, and Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea and Burnley all won it once each.. Teams like Preston (twice), Blackpool and Albion finished runners up, as well as ourselves (twice). It was a very different world football wise, as well as socially and economically. It was a period of full employment and the North and Midlands were industrial powerhouses. All gone now.

 

[Hanbury_Wolf]

The big six is a newish concept. The only concrete thing that makes the big six so is that they were the group of 6 clubs who were all involved in the breakaway.

Since there premier league began there's been Man Utd. The big 2, the big 4. Etc etc

Think you have to look club to club

Man U are the mainstay , they were in pole position when the money came in 92 and even with their current woes, they'll be the biggest club in the land for a very long time

City, we all know that has come about with outside investment. If the conditions were right I think that could have been any club

Chelsea, see city. Although I think Roman wanted to be in London

Liverpool. Very rich history and big fan base so will always be in the conversation

Arsenal also got good at the right time. Appointing wenger and some outrageously good recruitment at the turn of the century meant they hit the heights at a very good time, when popularity was taking off and now they're firmly established in any Big X.

I think the interesting one is Spurs. What about them is big 6? No recent success, rarely in top 4. So they've built a big stadium and don't fill it. They've grown and have managed to get a decent team together but if conditions changed, why couldn't west ham replace them in say 5 years, if they repeatedly out preformed them on and off the pitch.

I dont think it's the closed shop people like to think. Clearly it's hard and steps are being proposed and introduced to close it but I think Newcastle could easily get in.

You need big investment, a way around some of the rules designed against it , probably a big stadium and fan base to demonstrate the revenues and find a winning strategy on the pitch (qualifying for CL more than one off fluke)

 

[Deleted member drgr12429]

Another thing to consider in this day and age is where the media are based, as that is what drives popularity.
They are based in London, and now Manchester. Take Nuno for example. If he got a couple of minutes a week when he was here he'd be lucky. He went to Spurs and he was in the media every day!
The media has a huge role these days, and West Midlands clubs don't get a look in. Even Newcastle get more....

 

[Hanbury_Wolf]

Villa were pretty close on the 00s

They were a good side regularly around the top 6 but Lerner wasn't up for it, pulled away and it fell apart.

If they'd have had different owners at that point (eg current ones), things could have looked very different now.

You need to get it right on and off the pitch

Imagine how **** it would be if Villa were in the big 6

 

[reanswolf]

I don't think the North-west is any more attractive to live in than the West Midlands to be honest, Birmingham as a city has come on leaps and bounds (sadly at the expense of the peripheral areas like Wolverhampton and Coventry).

London has obvious pull, but its the last place in the UK I would want to live.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

If I try to be objective, then the only real aberration is Villa. It's all about money, money from vanity projects, but also from supporter base. Villa have massively underachieved to what they should be. Blues struggle in their shadow, Wolves are a 10-20th club, Albion a bit smaller. We're in a good place currently, Albion in a mess, 6 years ago it was the other way round, just enjoy what we have.

 

[Contrarian]

On "What makes Spurs one of the big 6?" The top 6 qualifying for Europe every season? Though never as succesful on the pitch as Man U, Arsenal or Chelsea, Spurs nearly always got somewhere in the top 6 which put them in Europe. At exactly the time when Europe went up in importance financially and publicity wise. Around Europe, I've met a fair few people who "love football" and you find out they know their national league and the European competitions. Clubs not in those , just don't exist. Seen many perplexed expressions when mentioning Wolves, or even outright "never heard of them". Even the season after relegation under Mick, it's like for most of the world, you don't exist.

Even the likes of Burnley, Southampton who have spent more time in the Premier League struggle for attention. The game is televised as "A Big 6 club vs This weeks plucky no-hopers". And that's for the real football fans. The majority are only interested in Big 6 vs Big 6 matches. It's not hard to reflect, there are plenty of European clubs I've vaguely heard of but couldn't tell you what division they are in. Juventus, Inter, we all know them. But Sassuolo? Still in Serie A? Where on earth is Sassuolo anyway? Parma? Sure we've all heard of them but without looking it up, are they in Serie A? The point is that is what we are to millions who watch football every week all over the world.

We all know, before every one of our matches, the TV coverage always mentions Man U. And Liverpool. Spurs are a good notch below them, but because they managed to get in Europe every year at the right time (and they are a London club who, like Chelsea, are supported by many of the media) get loads of publicity whether they are playing or not.

Some clubs always have been media favourites and get publicity far ahead of their actual success. Spurs are in that group. I'd also have Villa and especially Newcastle in there. Newcastle because they have won nothing in 50 years and close to nothing in their history. They had a spell of 3 or 4 good seasons, but apart from that, I have no idea why the media thinks we are so interested in them. At least Villa won quite a lot of trophies about 150 years ago.

 

[sc91]

Good question. Basically, I think it's to do with the relative wealth of the West Midlands area, which has plummeted in the last 50 years. This has made the place a less attractive place to work, live, and own property. London and the S East generally have been the big winners. The North is more complicated because the attractions are more concentrated, chiefly in Manchester and Liverpool. I lived in Manchester for a couple of years and it is a great city, far more attractive on every level than Birmingham in my opinion. But when you think that, 60 and more years ago, Preston, Bolton, Blackburn, Blackpool, Burnley were all permanent fixtures in the top division, it shows how much of the old industrial north is also as depressed as the West Midlands. Wealth in this country is the key and it is less equally distributed than it used to be, geographically speaking.

That is vastly changing, Midlands is a big moving spot for those from the south due to costs being ridiculous down here. Ourselves are looking at moving north as we can't afford an actual house down here whilst would be able to do so within the Midlands.

 

[oldgolded]

It's going to be very interesting to see how Newcastle try to 'Muscle' their way into the upper echelons of the game and compete with Liverpool and Manchester City.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

While they are factors, it’s more than money or the relative attractions of different cities.

Midland clubs have had some poor leadership over the past 30 odd years. Villa went from being one of the then big clubs to a Champ yo yo club. West Brom had a brief spell with sensible management but didn’t have the funds to take the next step and things unravelled. Brum, poor owners. Walsall, never made the step(s).

We of course are the best example. From the poor decision / bad luck of building the John Ireland and leaving our team without the resources to build on the 79/80 season, through near death with the Bhattis, the generous but naive SJH, and the hot and cold Morgan. Fosun are the most professional owners we’ve had in my adult life, but will progress be sustained?

 

[Deleted member drgr12429]

That is vastly changing, Midlands is a big moving spot for those from the south due to costs being ridiculous down here. Ourselves are looking at moving north as we can't afford an actual house down here whilst would be able to do so within the Midlands.

Cambridgeshire is a good spot for people moving from the London area. Selling a terraced house in Enfield plus 10k will buy you a mansion in the Cambridgeshire area. That was 10 years ago too. You'd probably get change from it now. M11 corridor makes it easy for commuting too..

 

[Jawwfc]

London is London.... me personally could not think of many places I'd rather not live but like Paris, Milan and New York it has that big city outlook from outsiders and foreign nationals.

The North West establishes itself around the success of Liverpool and United, City have been able to jump on the back of that, like most citys you turn away from the town centres of Liverpool and Manchester you'll find poverty, Liverpool also has a stronger tourist attraction rate than the midlands and not far out from those areas you have the likes of Chesire, their are some lovely areas in greater Manchester.

The Midlands is lacking on a lot of fronts we dont really have the tourism aspect of Liverpool which stems from The Beatles and Liverpool FC although the Midlands has a strong connection to music it is not promoted much, our football teams have always been moderate Aston Villas history was mainly from before 1900s, they had 1982 one league win and a few cup wins along the way but its is small compared to the North West teams, one issue I think the midlands had was no team established itself during the early years of the Premier League when it was very North West dominated.

I think Newcastle although they can spend a fortune will also suffer with the perceived attractiveness of the area.

 

[Big Saft Kid]

Cambridgeshire is a good spot for people moving from the London area. Selling a terraced house in Enfield plus 10k will buy you a mansion in the Cambridgeshire area. That was 10 years ago too. You'd probably get change from it now. M11 corridor makes it easy for commuting too..

Well not quite a mansion! Cambridgeshire definitely ain't cheap (I lived in S W Cambs for many years), compared, say, to the Midlands.

What's happening is that London is effectively massively expanding. Towns in the Thames Valley like Didcot, which is about 50 miles out of London, and where there is massive housebuilding going on, are easily commutable (44 mins fastest train) and the house prices are miles below London ones. So you can live in Didcot for half what it costs in, say, Croydon, and it's just as quick to get in by train. That's why, in retirement, we moved back to Shrops: there's now massive overcrowding in the S East.

 

[Boss Hogg]

Lyndsey won’t be happy that you’ve forgotten Smallsall - who also lost by the way and languish in league 2!

 

[Deleted member 11021Mcm]

Every senior West Midland Team lost again this weekend, Considering we are allegedly the 2nd City why is it that the West Midland Teams Wolves, Villa, Blues, Boggies have found it so difficult to get in amongst the so called big 6 more or less since the formation of the Premier League ?, Is it because the London Teams obviously have a pull being the capital, then the North West come next with nowhere else coming even remotely close to getting established as a regular Champions League team, yes I understand that most of our Teams have been pretty much poorly run for a lot of these years including us, but is there any other reason we as an area have found it so difficult to even attract megabucks owners never mind challenge for honours, as an aside its going to be interesting how Newcastle fare over the coming years.

There was a recent survey done as to which city was Englands true second city.

94% of Brummies said Birmingham.
89% of Yorkshire said it was Leeds.
91% of Scousers said Liverpool
but
100% of the Mancunians asked said London.

 

[inaglasshouse]

We were the Manchester United of the midlands, big crowds, cups, titles. Where did it all go wrong?
Well whatever happened I won't ever accept we should for ever live in the shadow of the top 6. Now we have some backing and the right connections we should be in there challenging for a top 6 place every year from now on.
It's certainly got nothing to do with how many nice apartments and restaurants we have, football is not an estate agency.
Those of you who see us a mid table also rans are cowards. Get on board, we can be great again.

 

[Minimalist]

"London is London" but if you go back six or seven decades, London clubs weren't that big or dominant. During the 50s, the two big power houses in English football were us and Man U. In the ten seasons from 1950 to 1960, Man U won the league 3 times, we won it 3 times, and Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea and Burnley all won it once each.. Teams like Preston (twice), Blackpool and Albion finished runners up, as well as ourselves (twice). It was a very different world football wise, as well as socially and economically. It was a period of full employment and the North and Midlands were industrial powerhouses. All gone now.

In the 50’s clubs weren’t so (or at all!) reliant on attracting players from abroad.

 

[Abbobrom]

Football used to be a sport for the working class. The Midlands and North were working class areas. Then money/corporate people became involved.

 

[rincewind]

We needed to have our current relative success in the mid 90s and maybe we could have got on the gravy train. Its not impossible for us but Fosuns current approach will take many years to have a significant effect on our finances. Of course that would change overnight if we found a Chinese Pedro Neto.
There is potential though. The city isn't big enough on it's own but Dudley is adjacent and has no proffessional football team, as is Walsall (which barely has). There's nothing much for some distance North or West either. Sadly while football was exploding in popularity we were struggling so most of thar potential support ended up as glory hunters.

 

[Big Saft Kid]

In the 50’s clubs weren’t so (or at all!) reliant on attracting players from abroad.

True, but that's a symptom, not a cause. There has been a huge shift in relative wealth. The Midlands and the North were not 'deprived' areas until 40-odd years ago, like they are now. We lost all our heavy industry and most of our skilled engineering and replaced it with what? Nail bars, charity shops, Greggs, low paid service industries. In the West Midlands, beginning in the 70s, big firms like Courtaulds, Goodyears, Stewart and Lloyds, BJB, John Thompson's and loads more all went to the wall. The long term effect has been the impoverishment of the area. A similar process happened in the North, especially after the closure of the mines in the 80s. There too, the old industries were replaced with **** all. In the meantime the S East flourished, and that's down to the priorities and biases of the political establishment, whichever party has been in power.

 

[WolfLing]

The big six is a newish concept. The only concrete thing that makes the big six so is that they were the group of 6 clubs who were all involved in the breakaway.

Since there premier league began there's been Man Utd. The big 2, the big 4. Etc etc

Think you have to look club to club

Man U are the mainstay , they were in pole position when the money came in 92 and even with their current woes, they'll be the biggest club in the land for a very long time

City, we all know that has come about with outside investment. If the conditions were right I think that could have been any club

Chelsea, see city. Although I think Roman wanted to be in London

Liverpool. Very rich history and big fan base so will always be in the conversation

Arsenal also got good at the right time. Appointing wenger and some outrageously good recruitment at the turn of the century meant they hit the heights at a very good time, when popularity was taking off and now they're firmly established in any Big X.

I think the interesting one is Spurs. What about them is big 6? No recent success, rarely in top 4. So they've built a big stadium and don't fill it. They've grown and have managed to get a decent team together but if conditions changed, why couldn't west ham replace them in say 5 years, if they repeatedly out preformed them on and off the pitch.

I dont think it's the closed shop people like to think. Clearly it's hard and steps are being proposed and introduced to close it but I think Newcastle could easily get in.

You need big investment, a way around some of the rules designed against it , probably a big stadium and fan base to demonstrate the revenues and find a winning strategy on the pitch (qualifying for CL more than one off fluke)

Agree with your assessments. You could argue the only thing between Spurs and West Ham at the moment is probably Harry Kane!

 

[oldgoldheart]

Geography is important. Not just the big six. In the past the top division was much less london focused. Next season it will have arsenal, cheksea, west ham , palace, spurs, fulham, brentford. Thats a third of the teams. Add in brighton, bournemouth, southampton and half are london or further south. Its geography and cash. The cash is in the south

 

[waveney wolf]

I thought Coventry beat Fulham yesterday??

 

[Frank Lincoln]

Not West Midlands I know, but will another so called smaller club achieve what Ipswich Town did in the late '70's and early '80's. Bobby Robson built a wonderful team that were a match for anyone.

 

[Saltyjim]

At the start of the Premier League it was the big 5 which included Everton but not City or Chelsea. Things are cyclical but it’s hard to see the current hierarchy being threatened too much owing to the financial advantages they enjoy. West Midlands has its fair share of depressed areas but is surrounded by lovely countryside. Certainly more accessible than from parts of London.

 

[Jack Russell]

Well not quite a mansion! Cambridgeshire definitely ain't cheap (I lived in S W Cambs for many years), compared, say, to the Midlands.

What's happening is that London is effectively massively expanding. Towns in the Thames Valley like Didcot, which is about 50 miles out of London, and where there is massive housebuilding going on, are easily commutable (44 mins fastest train) and the house prices are miles below London ones. So you can live in Didcot for half what it costs in, say, Croydon, and it's just as quick to get in by train. That's why, in retirement, we moved back to Shrops: there's now massive overcrowding in the S East.

I lived in a nice part of Addiscombe, Croydon for one year. Palace were enjoying their first ever season in the top flight and I saw them play at Selhurst several times as it was about 2 miles away.. However I was pleased when we moved to College Town, Sandhurst and escaped from Croydon which is a characterless, heartless, horrible place and had the opportunity to enjoy rural life again.

I never want to visit Croydon ever again!

 

[WickedWolfie]

Not West Midlands I know, but will another so called smaller club achieve what Ipswich Town did in the late '70's and early '80's. Bobby Robson built a wonderful team that were a match for anyone.

No chance.

 

[WickedWolfie]

There was a recent survey done as to which city was Englands true second city.

94% of Brummies said Birmingham.
89% of Yorkshire said it was Leeds.
91% of Scousers said Liverpool
but
100% of the Mancunians asked said London.

Sums up just how deluded Mancs are!

 

[Saltyjim]

I lived in a nice part of Addiscombe, Croydon for one year. Palace were enjoying their first ever season in the top flight and I saw them play at Selhurst several times as it was about 2 miles away.. However I was pleased when we moved to College Town, Sandhurst and escaped from Croydon which is a characterless, heartless, horrible place and had the opportunity to enjoy rural life again.

I never want to visit Croydon ever again!

I lived right by Palace’s ground for a couple of years. Croydon at the time was a mess because of the tram lines they were building. I thought the shopping area was ok, but West Croydon was dire.

 

[WickedWolfie]

True, but that's a symptom, not a cause. There has been a huge shift in relative wealth. The Midlands and the North were not 'deprived' areas until 40-odd years ago, like they are now. We lost all our heavy industry and most of our skilled engineering and replaced it with what? Nail bars, charity shops, Greggs, low paid service industries. In the West Midlands, beginning in the 70s, big firms like Courtaulds, Goodyears, Stewart and Lloyds, BJB, John Thompson's and loads more all went to the wall. The long term effect has been the impoverishment of the area. A similar process happened in the North, especially after the closure of the mines in the 80s. There too, the old industries were replaced with **** all. In the meantime the S East flourished, and that's down to the priorities and biases of the political establishment, whichever party has been in power.

The problem is that in an increasingly global world in the 1960 to 1980s the UK had an appalling industrial relations record and an unwillingness to invest into heavy industry. We were never going to be able to compete on price with so-called Third World countries for bulk produced items and without investment couldn't really aim at the high-end market either. The end result, sadly, was firms going to the wall.

 

[WickedWolfie]

I lived right by Palace’s ground for a couple of years. Croydon at the time was a mess because of the tram lines they were building. I thought the shopping area was ok, but West Croydon was dire.

The shopping area is a bloody mess too now. There were plans for a massive redevelopment - a new centre branded Westfield - and lots of shops were vacated only for the plans to fall through.

 

[derbyrameater]

I lived in a nice part of Addiscombe, Croydon for one year. Palace were enjoying their first ever season in the top flight and I saw them play at Selhurst several times as it was about 2 miles away.. However I was pleased when we moved to College Town, Sandhurst and escaped from Croydon which is a characterless, heartless, horrible place and had the opportunity to enjoy rural life again.

I never want to visit Croydon ever again!

I've got a friend who lives at College Town. Plays in a band around the area.

 

[cannockwolves]

The only what to break into the top six on a regular basis is a massive financial investment, and I don't mean a couple of hundred million I mean serious mega millions.

From where we are now you would have to keep Sa, Neves, Kilman, Jonny, Semedo, RAN, and Netto and off-load most of the rest over a couple of windows and go and get half a dozen £50m+ players - and then you would have to factor in that half of them will not work out - and probably splaff another few hundred million to build from there.

In the end, with building a 50k stadium, someone must be prepared to splaff a billion beer tokens on the 'project' - money they would never get back unless they captured a massive market like China or actually started to win the champions league - something City have failed to do even with all their investment.

It's like Jeff said, in China, there are 28 cities bigger than Manchester - all of them need to be tuning in to Wolves games every week and going round saying 'wolves ay we' while wearing their replica shirts!

The second bit is Jeff's long-term plan, it's the first bit that is hard to do - not least because the rules protect the big six's place. They don't want a Leicester, Wolves, Villa, or Newcastle upsetting the gravy train which is why if anyone can do it, it must be a club with a huge draw and very deep pockets - I would argue Newcastle, Leeds, Villa, West Ham, and perhaps Everton have the fan base worldwide to stand a chance. We need a much bigger ground and loads more investment on the pitch, and we need a good ten-year run in the prem, and not just surviving.

Newcastle are probably the best bet, which is why the Saudis brought them in the first place.

The only hope for us is Guo Guangchang waking up one morning and going, "do you know what I have too much money let's have a bit of fun - get me that Jeff bloke on the phone"

Alternatively, you build your academy and hope you get four or five future stars come through like the class of 92 to supplement a whole bunch of 'bargains' - but everyone is trying that.

 

[sc91]

True, but that's a symptom, not a cause. There has been a huge shift in relative wealth. The Midlands and the North were not 'deprived' areas until 40-odd years ago, like they are now. We lost all our heavy industry and most of our skilled engineering and replaced it with what? Nail bars, charity shops, Greggs, low paid service industries. In the West Midlands, beginning in the 70s, big firms like Courtaulds, Goodyears, Stewart and Lloyds, BJB, John Thompson's and loads more all went to the wall. The long term effect has been the impoverishment of the area. A similar process happened in the North, especially after the closure of the mines in the 80s. There too, the old industries were replaced with **** all. In the meantime the S East flourished, and that's down to the priorities and biases of the political establishment, whichever party has been in power.

The south east isn't all roses and flowers, look at the most poverty stricken areas in Britain and you'll find a sizeable chunk are in the south east. Industries have left here as well, we just have a slightly better wage which is often eaten up by the cost of living and the knowledge that either ourselves or our kids will have to leave in the near future, kinda miserable if anything knowing that.

The attractiveness aspect of an area ran dry when the most successful and watched clubs in the country are in the North West in the two Manchester teams and Liverpool. The Midlands teams have just had **** luck, Wolves missed the boat on the PL gravy train when we should have been there, Villa blew their chances time and time again when in reality they were one of the top 6 sides, Blues have been run by idiots for the past two decades and Albion the same. All of us had horrid luck.