VAR 2023-24

[Ned]

There were some complaints, but to be honest I didn't know what for. It should be a benefit of VAR as you can't really blame the ref for looking more at Wood and Sa tangling. To be honest having watched it I'm not sure there's enough, so much goes on anyway.

Yea I’m with you on this. As with every game since the existence of football, what goes on at corners all over the box is a series of fouls anywhere else on the pitch. It’s just how it is.

 

[SA Wolf]

Yea I’m with you on this. As with every game since the existence of football, what goes on at corners all over the box is a series of fouls anywhere else on the pitch. It’s just how it is.

Agree about the wrestling in the box at corners. We were having similar discussions under Mick with Berra 'guilty' of similar actions that are still happening.

 

[Ned]

Agree about the wrestling in the box at corners. We were having similar discussions under Mick with Berra 'guilty' of similar actions that are still happening.

Exactly, the lawmakers need to be careful in general because soon they’re going to make defending almost impossible.

 

[Superted]

Exactly, the lawmakers need to be careful in general because soon they’re going to make defending almost impossible.

I really can't understand the panel's position.

It's common practice for an attacking player to put one or more men on the keeper at a corner with the express intention of disrupting their ability to catch the ball or save any subsequent attempt on goal.

Are they now saying that all the defending team has to do is make sure that the player(s) marking the keeper are obviously in an offside position, in which case every "goal" they conceded from a corner that wasn't scored by the man/men marking the keeper should be ruled out?

Why have we not seen hundreds of such goals ruled out over the years?

 

[wootty54]

That's correct. Stood in offside position in front of keeper.

We were watching the match in the concourse at Forest and quite a few stood waiting for a VAR check but don't think there was one. Granted there was a larger gap between the Spuds keeper and the offside player than Chirewa but he definitely looked in the line of sight or very very close to it so I would have expected a Var check following the uproar from last saturday's "offside" call.
Just to add Tim Robinson was Var on Kilman's disallowed West Ham goal and also the ref at Newcastle yesterday so has he had a change of mind regarding this type of offside call? I think the ref/var playback for both these goals would be interesting?

 

[Ned]

I really can't understand the panel's position.

It's common practice for an attacking player to put one or more men on the keeper at a corner with the express intention of disrupting their ability to catch the ball or save any subsequent attempt on goal.

Are they now saying that all the defending team has to do is make sure that the player(s) marking the keeper are obviously in an offside position, in which case every "goal" they conceded from a corner that wasn't scored by the man/men marking the keeper should be ruled out?

Why have we not seen hundreds of such goals ruled out over the years?

You can’t be directly offside from a corner but if the Kilman situation arises then yea, all these goals would be offside. So the best way to defend a corner would be to push up and let the attacker get in the keepers way.

 

[JohnB]

Match Officials Mic'd Up: Why VAR correctly ruled out Wolves goal against West Ham

Speaking on Match Officals Micd Up, PGMOL chief Howard Webb explains why it was the correct decision to disallow Wolves late goal against West Ham for blocking the goalkeepers view.

www.skysports.com

Not 100% obvious to me it is offside - no lines drawn and point they've frozen it is not clear if Kilman has headed at that point....maybe clutching at straws but why no drawing of lines.

 

[Watfordfc]

Match Officials Mic'd Up: Why VAR correctly ruled out Wolves goal against West Ham

Speaking on Match Officals Micd Up, PGMOL chief Howard Webb explains why it was the correct decision to disallow Wolves late goal against West Ham for blocking the goalkeepers view.

www.skysports.com

Not 100% obvious to me it is offside - no lines drawn and point they've frozen it is not clear if Kilman has headed at that point....maybe clutching at straws but why no drawing of lines.

No one can tell if the keeper is going to get he back so should advantage go to the attacker?

After all the game is about goals..

 

[surreywolf]

So Chirewa was offside and in line of sight of keeper. But Ben white in line of sight for arsenal v spurs and not offside when Havertz heads it so no reaction from officials

following week forest attacker manhandling Sa at corner then Gibbs white two hands on defenders back and scores, no reaction from officials

Then Bournemouth player pushes cunha who flails arm, several passes back from Hwang header. Goal ruled out

The problem here is Howard that you can make a marginal case for all of them but there’s one overarching common denominator - time and again Wolves are on the brunt of these decisions. Why?

A while back I used to listen to those saying ‘oh you’re just paranoid, wolves fans stop moaning’ - but no longer. Why are officials so often ACTIVELY LOOKING for reasons to penalise us? I think it’s unconscious bias, we are easy meat compared to other clubs that get more media coverage. It stinks

 

[Oh When the Wolves]

Howard Webb talking about consistency is the most laughable thing

VAR has to go .

 

[surreywolf]

Howard Webb talking about consistency is the most laughable thing

VAR has to go .

Really hoping there’s a growing consensus now - even CL semi final commentators inc McManaman mentioning thank goodness no interventions during that game

 

[Fenrir_]

Match Officials Mic'd Up: Why VAR correctly ruled out Wolves goal against West Ham

Speaking on Match Officals Micd Up, PGMOL chief Howard Webb explains why it was the correct decision to disallow Wolves late goal against West Ham for blocking the goalkeepers view.

www.skysports.com

Not 100% obvious to me it is offside - no lines drawn and point they've frozen it is not clear if Kilman has headed at that point....maybe clutching at straws but why no drawing of lines.

No need for lines because Chirewa was clearly in an offside position. Their reasoning that he was blocking the keeper's view though is rubbish (unless Fabianski was looking for a family member in the SB lower) because as we've seen from other angles, Fabianski towered over Chirewa and had a clear view of the ball all the way from the corner flag to the corner of his net

 

[WickedWolfie]

No need for lines because Chirewa was clearly in an offside position. Their reasoning that he was blocking the keeper's view though is rubbish (unless Fabianski was looking for a family member in the SB lower) because as we've seen from other angles, Fabianski towered over Chirewa and had a clear view of the ball all the way from the corner flag to the corner of his net

Howard Webb is full of crap.

 

[JadeWolf]

Match Officials Mic'd Up: Why VAR correctly ruled out Wolves goal against West Ham

Speaking on Match Officals Micd Up, PGMOL chief Howard Webb explains why it was the correct decision to disallow Wolves late goal against West Ham for blocking the goalkeepers view.

www.skysports.com

Not 100% obvious to me it is offside - no lines drawn and point they've frozen it is not clear if Kilman has headed at that point....maybe clutching at straws but why no drawing of lines.

So much wrong with the audio and Webb’s explanation. Unreal.

As @JohnB points out, the moment they freeze the footage the ball is still with Kilman, the next frame on when it’s moved forward Chirewa is level because the defender steps back.

The VAR decides to use a particular angle because it shows the offside clearly. Is it not best to show the referee all the angles available to help him decide? Not just cherry pick the angles that will push a particular decision.

Again, so many voices. Referee, VAR, AVAR, Linesman, the techincian, then the 4th official gets stuck in shouting about the bench. It’s incredibly unprofessional.

Howard Webb’s comment of “we don’t want to take goals away if we don’t have have to” I’ve just spat my coffee out. Bournemouth anyone?! That’s literally what you’ve been doing all season Howard.

For once Michael Owen makes a valid point, Chirewa has no impact on Fabianski because he’s never saving the ball. Webb has no answer.

“We want to be consistent”. Could’ve fooled me Howard.

“Most goalkeeping people I’ve spoken to”. Wonder who that is. Our GK coach who is highly respected and well thought of said it was a disgraceful decision.

 

[surreywolf]

No need for lines because Chirewa was clearly in an offside position. Their reasoning that he was blocking the keeper's view though is rubbish (unless Fabianski was looking for a family member in the SB lower) because as we've seen from other angles, Fabianski towered over Chirewa and had a clear view of the ball all the way from the corner flag to the corner of his net

Apparently ‘line of sight’ doesn’t consider height, just proximity - according to Dale Johnson from ESPN

(I’m serious - incredible isn’t it)

 

[Wolf316]

Howard Webb talking about consistency is the most laughable thing

VAR has to go .

That’s funny seeing as Harrington allowed City’s goal when Akanji was offside and blocking the keepers view.

 

[Saltyjim]

Apparently ‘line of sight’ doesn’t consider height, just proximity - according to Dale Johnson from ESPN

(I’m serious - incredible isn’t it)

Fabianski is 6’3”, Max is 6’4” (and was in the air) and Chirewa is 5’11”. The shot from behind the goal is misleading, the one from the side shows the keeper had a good view of the ball.

 

[Flea]

In Sweden,who is currently rejecting VAR..the clubs is all owned to a minimum of 51 percent by it´s members.
This is why VAR can be rejected.
IF England wants VAR out..then the initiative must come from the owners of the football clubs.
The fans have very limited power over those things in England.

I am a little bit on the fence.
I cannot believe that the technology in itself can be the problem.
It is the scope for where it´s used that makes it go wrong IMO.
VAR should only be used for penalties and direct offsides.

Everything else on the pitch is umpires decision..including offside or not in any build up play to a goal.

I think there is acceptance for VAR when checking the direct offsides..ie the very last pass before a goal..but using it for checking offsides in build up play before the last stage kills the game..as we have all seen on numerous occasions.

VAR must be used in a way that is acceptable.
Thus far in England it has been implemented to work on way too many things.
It simply has to change.

 

[Flea]

Just adding..it wouldn´t hurt if the current crop of refs developed a little bit of integrity.
It is ridiculous nowadays when a spineless ref dashes off to watch TV during a matchand everyone and his grandmother knows beforehand that he will change his former decision.
VAR has severly undermined the authority of refs..and it has made them cowards.
It is one ugly thing.

 

[Ned]

Anybody bothered about the possibility of refs explaining decisions to the crowd? Just extra hold ups for something that the crowd won’t hear anyway unless they all go silent at the same time.

Honestly Howard Webb is so out of touch. Surely he realises that an overwhelming majority of fans now want rid of the whole thing, not more hold ups and explanations.

 

[Fenrir_]

Fabianski is 6’3”, Max is 6’4” (and was in the air) and Chirewa is 5’11”. The shot from behind the goal is misleading, the one from the side shows the keeper had a good view of the ball.

 

[Watfordfc]

Anybody bothered about the possibility of refs explaining decisions to the crowd? Just extra hold ups for something that the crowd won’t hear anyway unless they all go silent at the same time.

Honestly Howard Webb is so out of touch. Surely he realises that an overwhelming majority of fans now want rid of the whole thing, not more hold ups and explanations.

And is it going to make people more satisfied if they hear what is said with the decision made?

Probably not..

As you suggest football crowds are a bit different to rugby and cricket ones too who generally sit there quietly.

 

[Very Proud (AKA Still Proud)]

Anybody bothered about the possibility of refs explaining decisions to the crowd? Just extra hold ups for something that the crowd won’t hear anyway unless they all go silent at the same time.

Honestly Howard Webb is so out of touch. Surely he realises that an overwhelming majority of fans now want rid of the whole thing, not more hold ups and explanations.

Flogging a dead horse, at some point someone with a bit of say must realise that all they are doing is making a bad situation worse.

Can't wait for the first time the Ref goes all NFL and presses a button on his hip to only be drown out by "**** VAR!!!!"

 

[JohnB]

So much wrong with the audio and Webb’s explanation. Unreal.

As @JohnB points out, the moment they freeze the footage the ball is still with Kilman, the next frame on when it’s moved forward Chirewa is level because the defender steps back.

The VAR decides to use a particular angle because it shows the offside clearly. Is it not best to show the referee all the angles available to help him decide? Not just cherry pick the angles that will push a particular decision.

Again, so many voices. Referee, VAR, AVAR, Linesman, the techincian, then the 4th official gets stuck in shouting about the bench. It’s incredibly unprofessional.

Howard Webb’s comment of “we don’t want to take goals away if we don’t have have to” I’ve just spat my coffee out. Bournemouth anyone?! That’s literally what you’ve been doing all season Howard.

For once Michael Owen makes a valid point, Chirewa has no impact on Fabianski because he’s never saving the ball. Webb has no answer.

“We want to be consistent”. Could’ve fooled me Howard.

“Most goalkeeping people I’ve spoken to”. Wonder who that is. Our GK coach who is highly respected and well thought of said it was a disgraceful decision.

Thanks Jade - he probably is offside - but it is not “clear” to me from the footage and I’ve repeatedly scrolled the video back and forth. That picture definitely isn’t clear that he has actually headed it yet. From behind goal when you see him head it it feels like one frame onside and one offside.

Is what it is and we move on.

Bottom line is VAR is a mess and operators need to sort it. Stick with on field, re ref or only re ref if a major issue. The lack of consistency and time lapse/unknown reasoning is shocking.

 

[Leominster_Wolf]

Ridiculous thing is, that even excluding the crap decisions earlier in the season, just the Bournemouth and West Ham decisions have cost us 2 points. But has also gifted those teams 2 additional points.
Relative changes in the points would mean that we’d be up to 9th on 48 points (with west ham and Bournemouth on 47 and 46 points respectively)

If the season was to end now - same league positions - that would mean an additional £6m in prize money to us. Given the focus on FFP/PSR and the changes potentially forthcoming, this is the reality of the situation that no one has actually put to Webb and PGMOL.

Their crap decisions and inconsistencies have a material affect on club revenue, FFP and moving forward potentially what you can spend on transfers.

 

[JohnB]

Ridiculous thing is, that even excluding the crap decisions earlier in the season, just the Bournemouth and West Ham decisions have cost us 2 points. But has also gifted those teams 2 additional points.
Relative changes in the points would mean that we’d be up to 9th on 48 points (with west ham and Bournemouth on 47 and 46 points respectively)

If the season was to end now - same league positions - that would mean an additional £6m in prize money to us. Given the focus on FFP/PSR and the changes potentially forthcoming, this is the reality of the situation that no one has actually put to Webb and PGMOL.

Their crap decisions and inconsistencies have a material affect on club revenue, FFP and moving forward potentially what you can spend on transfers.

Same for United (Onana vs Sasa) and Sky highlighted same in return (Onana va Kilman) so could argue we’d be up 2 and United down 4.

Then Newcastle we’d be two more and them one less.

Finally Fulham, who are pretty likely to finish above us - could debate if we should be 3 more and Fulham 3 less or 1 more and Fulham 2 less.

 

[surreywolf]

Bottom line is why are Wolves being penalised when it comes to so many subjective decisions. Decisions which don’t *have* to be made and no-one would blink an eye if they hadn’t been made (West Ham/bournemouth).

Not saying there’s an agenda at all, but something is informing the VAR official’s thinking for these. Something about Wolves - why?

 

[Monketron]

Bottom line is why are Wolves being penalised when it comes to so many subjective decisions. Decisions which don’t *have* to be made and no-one would blink an eye if they hadn’t been made (West Ham/bournemouth).

Not saying there’s an agenda at all, but something is informing the VAR official’s thinking for these. Something about Wolves - why?

This is the thing. I don't for one moment think any ref is deliberately biased. They wouldn't have got anywhere near the level they did if they were, but you can't tell me there isn't some unconscious bias when it comes to so many subjective decisions. It happens way too often.

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

I didn't like his reasoning for the Kilman disallowed goal.

It was a subjective decision. Yet he was claiming it had to be offside. If that was the case, the referee wouldn't have been sent to the monitor. So they're trying to say it had to be offside, but it didn't.

In hindsight, this is a decision that could've been given. For example, if the lino had flagged, we couldn't really have complained. I do think it was wrong that it was overturned though. Nevertheless, it didn't make sense that O'Neil lost his head on this one and not the others.

Ben White wasn't offside for Arsenal for those using that as an example, and ultimately Chirewa has messed up, as he would've been told to step back onside when the ball came across, and he forgot.

I presume O'Neil's refusal to comment on Cunha vs Bournemouth was down to that charge hanging over him. That was an incredibly bad decision.

 

[jackdusty]

That’s funny seeing as Harrington allowed City’s goal when Akanji was offside and blocking the keepers view.

PGMOL admitted they got that one wrong, they learnt from it and penalised us instead