The insanity of doing the same thing, but expecting different results

[WolfLing]

Other than last season, Nuno's Wolves stood apart from the rest of the Premier League for daring to do things differently.

Our two successive 7th place finishes were down to playing a different brand of football than the established elite. Compact, counter-attacking football, that was tough to watch at times, but wildly entertaining at others.

As a result, we were much better than the sum of our parts.

Leicester's league win demonstrated this even more. Doing things differently upset the apple cart. Yet since moving away from the style that won them the league to a more possession based game, they have never finished inside the top 4. The only way they distinguish themselves now and a big reason for their successive 5th place finishes is their transfer market acumen.

Some of our our closest rivals in the Premier League, the likes of Villa and Everton, haven't done things differently. They have spent money and wages on big-name players and tried to compete playing a similar style of football as the big boys, just not as well. High-pressing, possession-based football seems to be the thing most clubs are adopting now.

Villa enjoyed their best season for a long time last year, yet still finished 11th. Everton brought in Carlo Ancelotti, James Rodriguez and Allan, amongst others, yet still finished 10th. Leeds were lauded as one of the best footballing sides in the league, yet still only finished 9th.

Of the medium sized Premier League clubs, only West Ham really played a different brand of football last season, probably the closest to the brand of football that we had played for the previous two seasons. They finished 6th playing a similar compact, counter-attacking game.

The fear I have during this transition is that we just become another of the Premier League's also-rans. Playing high-pressing, possession-based football, only not as well as the clubs that can bring in multiple superstars in each transfer window.

Get it right and have a good season and you might finish anywhere between 6th and 11th. Get it wrong and you could end up being a Brighton, or worse still, a Fulham.

We've gone from doing things differently, to potentially doing the same things similar sized clubs with more money have done for years, without success. What makes us think we can play the same way, yet expect different results?

The only thing that stands us apart from those clubs is our transfer business has generally been better, bringing in lower-valued players through our Mendes connection and developing them into much better players.

I think we need that connection more than ever this summer, especially if any of our best players are moved on.

Rafael Leao, Renato Sanches, Goncalo Guedes, Sergio Oliveira, Carlos Vinicius, Pizzi and Ruben Vezo are all Gestifute clients at the level we need to be targeting.

We should invite Mendes over for a visit, then lock him in a room with a phone until the squad is where it needs to be!!

 

[goldfish]

We're a victim of circumstance, in a way. FFP as it stands really damages clubs of our size with ambition - we simply can't spend the money we need to without breaking the rules. The clubs with large revenues have much more leeway to spend. There's no way of knowing whether the club would spend the money otherwise, of course.

But it's not just circumstance: it's poor planning too. Even if Fabio Silva kicks on to become the player the propaganda tells us he will be, the £35m we spent on him looks dafter with every passing minute. That sort of gamble signing is one that should only be made when the present is sorted.

All this said: the club may just be doing a very very good job at manipulating the market. Some of our biggest signings previous years have come out of nowhere, and have followed messaging through well-connected but unofficial channels that no big signings will be made. That helps keep prices down, of course. I'm still not sure how we'd get round FFP though.

 

[Bacon Sandwich]

I am completely relaxed about the new season. We have partnered with YO-GYM and now have an official Chinese Regional Fitness Partner. And some idiots think a CB and a CM are important....

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

I get your overall point but the sort of football we played was only acceptable because it was successful.

The first year in the Premier League was new, so everyone was buzzing and it was exciting. We obviously exceeded expectations and then backed it up with another year of overachieving but the style was gradually getting worse and harder to accept considering the talent we have in attack.

Then, last year, when we probably ended up near to where we 'should' be, it was awful. In isolation, no Wolves manager should be sacked for finishing 13th in this Premier League. We should maybe be about 10th or 11th if we're generous? So it was hardly a big drop off but the football was unacceptable really.

Therefore, IMO, it's only acceptable to play as we did if it results in success - which would be European football realistically. I'd take any style to go on another few away days across Europe but realistically that's going to be extremely hard. There are six clubs who should always finish above us, which leaves one place left and the likes of Leicester, West Ham (now), Everton, Villa & Leeds are all ahead of us.

Working on the basis that finishing in Europe is going to be extremely unlikely, what do you want from your team? Last season was disgraceful IMO for the style. Brighton finished below us but their fans would've had a much more enjoyable year than us, I'm sure of it. Leeds was on another level completely. It was as though they were playing a different sport to us in terms of entertainment.

So, I don't mind us trying to play like the better teams because it's generally much better to watch than last year.

Agree entirely about strengthening through Mendes as the way to go but unfortunately that's on the owners who simply don't want to invest any more which we can't do much about. That means we probably are like every other club but the only way to change that for the long-term is via constant, serious investment, year after year.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Always love your threads @WolfLing but not sure I agree with the thinking. Let me digress into a bit of chess... A boroque opening which doesn't follow the normal patterns might work well against an experienced opponent, but after a few goes they will spot the weaknesses that make it unusual. In our first two seasons teams expected to beat us and attacked, leaving them venerable to counter attacks. Of course we were also brilliant/lucky with injuries. Eventually teams sit back more and say, you need the points here, come and get them, just like we did. So you have to change to improve. The problem of course is that change is not a synonym for improve, 4231 showed that last season, it was an exciting ride which people say they want, but that will soon change when the 1-0 wins turn into 3-2 defeats.

 

[WolfLing]

Always love your threads @WolfLing but not sure I agree with the thinking. Let me digress into a bit of chess... A boroque opening which doesn't follow the normal patterns might work well against an experienced opponent, but after a few goes they will spot the weaknesses that make it unusual. In our first two seasons teams expected to beat us and attacked, leaving them venerable to counter attacks. Of course we were also brilliant/lucky with injuries. Eventually teams sit back more and say, you need the points here, come and get them, just like we did. So you have to change to improve. The problem of course is that change is not a synonym for improve, 4231 showed that last season, it was an exciting ride which people say they want, but that will soon change when the 1-0 wins turn into 3-2 defeats.

Agree, you always have to adapt to progress. Last season's changes failed for a variety of reasons, injuries to big players being one of them.

But the changes to improve again should involve trying something different again, not the same thing others have tried and failed at for years. I don't have the answer to what that different thing is, just the evidence of loads of other clubs as to what it probably isn't.

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

The Leicester example is puzzling tbh, their team now is miles better than the one which won the league. Was a nice story but they caught lightning in a bottle. We were boring to watch the last 1.5 seasons, when teams realised they just blocked our counter and we had no answer.

Everton were closest in style to us last season imo. Very organised, defensive and relied on individual creativity not team play.

Adapt or die.

 

[Deleted member 9202LYK]

I am completely relaxed about the new season. We have partnered with YO-GYM and now have an official Chinese Regional Fitness Partner. And some idiots think a CB and a CM are important....

Don’t forget the Esports with TheVileEvils or whatever they were called.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

The Leicester example is puzzling tbh, their team now is miles better than the one which won the league. Was a nice story but they caught lightning in a bottle. We were boring to watch the last 1.5 seasons, when teams realised they just blocked our counter and we had no answer.

Everton were closest in style to us last season imo. Very organised, defensive and relied on individual creativity not team play.

Adapt or die.

Still staggers me that a team playing Huth and Morgan at CH won the league.

 

[SA Wolf]

Other than last season, Nuno's Wolves stood apart from the rest of the Premier League for daring to do things differently.

Our two successive 7th place finishes were down to playing a different brand of football than the established elite. Compact, counter-attacking football, that was tough to watch at times, but wildly entertaining at others.

As a result, we were much better than the sum of our parts.

Leicester's league win demonstrated this even more. Doing things differently upset the apple cart. Yet since moving away from the style that won them the league to a more possession based game, they have never finished inside the top 4. The only way they distinguish themselves now and a big reason for their successive 5th place finishes is their transfer market acumen.

Some of our our closest rivals in the Premier League, the likes of Villa and Everton, haven't done things differently. They have spent money and wages on big-name players and tried to compete playing a similar style of football as the big boys, just not as well. High-pressing, possession-based football seems to be the thing most clubs are adopting now.

Villa enjoyed their best season for a long time last year, yet still finished 11th. Everton brought in Carlo Ancelotti, James Rodriguez and Allan, amongst others, yet still finished 10th. Leeds were lauded as one of the best footballing sides in the league, yet still only finished 9th.

Of the medium sized Premier League clubs, only West Ham really played a different brand of football last season, probably the closest to the brand of football that we had played for the previous two seasons. They finished 6th playing a similar compact, counter-attacking game.

The fear I have during this transition is that we just become another of the Premier League's also-rans. Playing high-pressing, possession-based football, only not as well as the clubs that can bring in multiple superstars in each transfer window.

Get it right and have a good season and you might finish anywhere between 6th and 11th. Get it wrong and you could end up being a Brighton, or worse still, a Fulham.

We've gone from doing things differently, to potentially doing the same things similar sized clubs with more money have done for years, without success. What makes us think we can play the same way, yet expect different results?

The only thing that stands us apart from those clubs is our transfer business has generally been better, bringing in lower-valued players through our Mendes connection and developing them into much better players.

I think we need that connection more than ever this summer, especially if any of our best players are moved on.

Rafael Leao, Renato Sanches, Goncalo Guedes, Sergio Oliveira, Carlos Vinicius, Pizzi and Ruben Vezo are all Gestifute clients at the level we need to be targeting.

We should invite Mendes over for a visit, then lock him in a room with a phone until the squad is where it needs to be!!

Agree with you and said as much last season. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!! I was told that we had to change styles/3 at the back etc..that we had 'been found out' and of course injuries caught up with us. However, I for one, would have been happy to continue in the style that bought us praise as one of the best promoted sides and plaudits from fans and pundits around the world. Nuno and others seemed to think differently and we can see how that turned out.

 

[WolfLing]

The Leicester example is puzzling tbh, their team now is miles better than the one which won the league. Was a nice story but they caught lightning in a bottle. We were boring to watch the last 1.5 seasons, when teams realised they just blocked our counter and we had no answer.

Everton were closest in style to us last season imo. Very organised, defensive and relied on individual creativity not team play.

Adapt or die.

Agree. Leicester did catch lightening in a bottle and to some degree, so did we.

I guess I am hoping for ways of catching it again, rather than coming to terms with the acceptance of our status of competing for a top half finish every season at best!

I'm also forgetting that Leicester finished 12th, 9th and 9th before their successive 5th place finishes, by organically rebuilding their entire team/squad/club.

I'm just being impatient! It's a long, hard journey to get to where we want to be, one with very few shortcuts!

 

[Halesowen wwfc]

I still think it was down to those latter european games that forced the change. Yes we got through against okympiakos but they did outplay us in terms of football over the 2 legs, and then sevilla made us look like a pub team holding on for dear life to get to extra time. Both those teams had been put together for far less money than we had. You can accept backs to the wall against the chelseas and so on, because of the amount of money they had spent, but to struggle against olympiakos, whose biggest transfer was something like 10m 10 years ago would have made fosun realise they were not getting their return on investment. They rightly are focussed on building the brand to generate higher sponsorship and merchandising sales which will translate to more investment in the team, but if the style of play is turgid, it will see viewers switching off. Even the hardcore loyal homegrown fans at times last year couldnt bare to watch the games sometimes.

I do believe the change in formation was forced upon nuno and it is to be seen whether its lack of success was down to the players, or incorrect implementation by the coaching staff. I think its likely to be a bit of both, but believe that good players dont turn bad overnight, and fully expect to see a resurgance of the likes of saiss, dendoncker, and neves this year assuming he stays.

 

[Deleted member 9202LYK]

Agree, you always have to adapt to progress. Last season's changes failed for a variety of reasons, injuries to big players being one of them.

But the changes to improve again should involve trying something different again, not the same thing others have tried and failed at for years. I don't have the answer to what that different thing is, just the evidence of loads of other clubs as to what it probably isn't.

I appreciate what was said above about our style being found out - but I think it was more than that - some of our players got found out too.

Coady for example looked a completely different player after his England goal. He went from 7.5/10 to 5/10 overnight.

Im not sure (I don’t know enough about tactics) but it seems Mouts got found out aswell (a flaw creeping into his perfect game with age). Maybe just simply lost a bit of pace or acceleration.

Saiss and Dendoncker were just found out and attacked and couldn’t deal with it. They both send from 6/10 to 4/10.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

Other than last season, Nuno's Wolves stood apart from the rest of the Premier League for daring to do things differently.

Our two successive 7th place finishes were down to playing a different brand of football than the established elite. Compact, counter-attacking football, that was tough to watch at times, but wildly entertaining at others.

As a result, we were much better than the sum of our parts.

Leicester's league win demonstrated this even more. Doing things differently upset the apple cart. Yet since moving away from the style that won them the league to a more possession based game, they have never finished inside the top 4. The only way they distinguish themselves now and a big reason for their successive 5th place finishes is their transfer market acumen.

Some of our our closest rivals in the Premier League, the likes of Villa and Everton, haven't done things differently. They have spent money and wages on big-name players and tried to compete playing a similar style of football as the big boys, just not as well. High-pressing, possession-based football seems to be the thing most clubs are adopting now.

Villa enjoyed their best season for a long time last year, yet still finished 11th. Everton brought in Carlo Ancelotti, James Rodriguez and Allan, amongst others, yet still finished 10th. Leeds were lauded as one of the best footballing sides in the league, yet still only finished 9th.

Of the medium sized Premier League clubs, only West Ham really played a different brand of football last season, probably the closest to the brand of football that we had played for the previous two seasons. They finished 6th playing a similar compact, counter-attacking game.

The fear I have during this transition is that we just become another of the Premier League's also-rans. Playing high-pressing, possession-based football, only not as well as the clubs that can bring in multiple superstars in each transfer window.

Get it right and have a good season and you might finish anywhere between 6th and 11th. Get it wrong and you could end up being a Brighton, or worse still, a Fulham.

We've gone from doing things differently, to potentially doing the same things similar sized clubs with more money have done for years, without success. What makes us think we can play the same way, yet expect different results?

The only thing that stands us apart from those clubs is our transfer business has generally been better, bringing in lower-valued players through our Mendes connection and developing them into much better players.

I think we need that connection more than ever this summer, especially if any of our best players are moved on.

Rafael Leao, Renato Sanches, Goncalo Guedes, Sergio Oliveira, Carlos Vinicius, Pizzi and Ruben Vezo are all Gestifute clients at the level we need to be targeting.

We should invite Mendes over for a visit, then lock him in a room with a phone until the squad is where it needs to be!!

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

Other than last season, Nuno's Wolves stood apart from the rest of the Premier League for daring to do things differently.

Our two successive 7th place finishes were down to playing a different brand of football than the established elite. Compact, counter-attacking football, that was tough to watch at times, but wildly entertaining at others.

As a result, we were much better than the sum of our parts.

Leicester's league win demonstrated this even more. Doing things differently upset the apple cart. Yet since moving away from the style that won them the league to a more possession based game, they have never finished inside the top 4. The only way they distinguish themselves now and a big reason for their successive 5th place finishes is their transfer market acumen.

Some of our our closest rivals in the Premier League, the likes of Villa and Everton, haven't done things differently. They have spent money and wages on big-name players and tried to compete playing a similar style of football as the big boys, just not as well. High-pressing, possession-based football seems to be the thing most clubs are adopting now.

Villa enjoyed their best season for a long time last year, yet still finished 11th. Everton brought in Carlo Ancelotti, James Rodriguez and Allan, amongst others, yet still finished 10th. Leeds were lauded as one of the best footballing sides in the league, yet still only finished 9th.

Of the medium sized Premier League clubs, only West Ham really played a different brand of football last season, probably the closest to the brand of football that we had played for the previous two seasons. They finished 6th playing a similar compact, counter-attacking game.

The fear I have during this transition is that we just become another of the Premier League's also-rans. Playing high-pressing, possession-based football, only not as well as the clubs that can bring in multiple superstars in each transfer window.

Get it right and have a good season and you might finish anywhere between 6th and 11th. Get it wrong and you could end up being a Brighton, or worse still, a Fulham.

We've gone from doing things differently, to potentially doing the same things similar sized clubs with more money have done for years, without success. What makes us think we can play the same way, yet expect different results?

The only thing that stands us apart from those clubs is our transfer business has generally been better, bringing in lower-valued players through our Mendes connection and developing them into much better players.

I think we need that connection more than ever this summer, especially if any of our best players are moved on.

Rafael Leao, Renato Sanches, Goncalo Guedes, Sergio Oliveira, Carlos Vinicius, Pizzi and Ruben Vezo are all Gestifute clients at the level we need to be targeting.

We should invite Mendes over for a visit, then lock him in a room with a phone until the squad is where it needs to be!!

WolfLing, have you not read the Squad thread? Puts your views on incoming players into some balance/perspective.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

Still staggers me that a team playing Huth and Morgan at CH won the league.

On this theme as money is obviously tight and the need for a solid CH I'd certainly talk to Cahill who is now a free agent. He'd do us for a year.

 

[AndyWolves]

I think Lage is here to help us develop our young players into more marketable propositions.

Nuno didn't play youth players unless he absolutely had to.

I think Lages appointment is more aligned to the buy low /sell high thing that were trying to do.

 

[WolfLing]

WolfLing, have you not read the Squad thread? Puts your views on incoming players into some balance/perspective.

Yes, I've seen it and commented.

A situation that makes the requirement for some 'Mendes magic' even more important!

 

[The Wolf In The North]

I think the philosophy of a specific club taking a different/unusual approach only becomes an outlier when they over-achieve.

Atalanta are probably the prime example, a relatively small club who routinely punch above their weight in recent years because of a radically different gameplan, to attack no matter what, finishing as top scorers year after year and challenging for top four. The closest example in the PL (after our two successful years) are Leeds, and I don't think finishing 9th in their first season back is any small feat.

But it's only credible when it works, and top managers aren't daft, they study the outlier teams and come up with ways of nullifying them, which is part of what happened to us. If Leeds and Bielsa start to be undone it's not because they've got worse, it's because other managers and teams and have worked them out enough.

The key is adapting, to keep trying new and unpredictable things, or to add unpredictable players to a base framework (as Nuno did with Traore). And then hope it works. Leeds will be a fascinating watch this year for this reason, and Villa - if they're without Grealish - and West Ham will have to add in something new to keep progressing.

I'm hoping Lage does bring something different in terms of mindset (god help us otherwise) but it's crucial we add a player or two who offer something new as well, else it will just fall flat, and - as WolfLing states - we just become one of those lower-half pack who play well in patches and hope to collect enough points to tread water. It's frustrating, because we really are only one or two players with individual flair away from competing in that top half.

 

[cannockwolves]

I don't think you can discount the one thing that really makes the difference in any game of football - the quality of the players.

Sometimes that is because they have more talent than people realise (Jiminez & Jota) or they fit a style perfectly (Doc) or they are an exceptional player young player and we were brave to take a punt when others were not (Neto/Neves).

In our first couple of seasons we had some very good footballers for the style of play - Jiminez, Jonny, Jota, Neves, Boly, and Adama where/are very good premier league players.

We lost Jiminez and Jonny through injury, sold Jota, Adama and Neves have gone off the boil, and Boly has really not looked the same player. Add in the loss of Doc who was very effective at the role, and we are seriously weakened compared to the first few seasons.

A club in our position simply can't lose a talent like Jota and Jiminez (or Jonny) and not be very lucky with replacements.

This is were Leicester have been excellent. They had some excellent players, sold them on to clubs higher up the food chain, but replaced them with very good signings - we have not been as successful partly because of Fosun's obsession with buying cheap youngsters.

I am not saying this wont work in the longer term, its possible you could get a 'golden generation' all mature at the same time - but you would have to be extremely lucky. In the meantime those players for the future that are not ready mean you have some barren years.

I am still hopeful we will get two or three in before the end of the window, but selling Neves or Adama to fund them carries big risks.

 

[Ned]

Really good points made. We did something differently and really made an impact in the league in terms of our style. Completely agree that this league has so many also-rans who have false hopes of breaking into the top 4/6 by playing the same style but with worse players than the teams above them.

I'm OK with Bruno playing a 343 and adapting it to still be entertaining and attack minded when we need it to be.

A lot of our success and optimism against the top teams came from the system and the way we played so compactly and broke at pace. If we went into these games with a standard 433 or 442 with a high press then I doubt we would be that hopeful of a shock.

 

[Frank Lincoln]

Still staggers me that a team playing Huth and Morgan at CH won the league.

Living where I do, most Leicester fans I know tell me that apart from Vardys goals, the main reason for their success was N'Gola Kante. He was absolutely superb for Leicester that season.

 

[WolfLing]

Living where I do, most Leicester fans I know tell me that apart from Vardys goals, the main reason for their success was N'Gola Kante. He was absolutely superb for Leicester that season.

Kind of figures, given his success of winning everything with Chelsea & France since he left!

 

[Alex Rae The Substitute]

I don't think you can discount the one thing that really makes the difference in any game of football - the quality of the players.

Sometimes that is because they have more talent than people realise (Jiminez & Jota) or they fit a style perfectly (Doc) or they are an exceptional player young player and we were brave to take a punt when others were not (Neto/Neves).

In our first couple of seasons we had some very good footballers for the style of play - Jiminez, Jonny, Jota, Neves, Boly, and Adama where/are very good premier league players.

We lost Jiminez and Jonny through injury, sold Jota, Adama and Neves have gone off the boil, and Boly has really not looked the same player. Add in the loss of Doc who was very effective at the role, and we are seriously weakened compared to the first few seasons.

A club in our position simply can't lose a talent like Jota and Jiminez (or Jonny) and not be very lucky with replacements.

This is were Leicester have been excellent. They had some excellent players, sold them on to clubs higher up the food chain, but replaced them with very good signings - we have not been as successful partly because of Fosun's obsession with buying cheap youngsters.

I am not saying this wont work in the longer term, its possible you could get a 'golden generation' all mature at the same time - but you would have to be extremely lucky. In the meantime those players for the future that are not ready mean you have some barren years.

I am still hopeful we will get two or three in before the end of the window, but selling Neves or Adama to fund them carries big risks.

This is a great post.

Season one back in the PL we had early 30s Moutinho and Rui Patricio which you could argue was them still in their peak years. We also had Johnny (personally I think he’s Wolves best all round player) and Raul Jimenez playing on top form and Jota on many occasions was simply unplayable.

Second season in the PL Traore joined them in playing at the very top of his game, meaning we had 5/6 players that were on paper too good for a newly promoted team.

Gradually since then there has been a decline, Moutinho and Rui Patricio have aged and whilst still good players have come out of their peak years. Johnny and Raúl have suffered horrendous injuries. Add into this that Traore seems to have regressed and we sold Jota to the PL champions that is a big hit to the starting lineup of many established PL teams let alone Wolves.

This doesn’t factor in the loss of Doherty either who whilst not top class was pivotal to how Wolves played and was a vital source of goals and assists.

All in all it’s no wonder our squad/ first XI currently looks a little weaker than it has done previously.

 

[WolfLing]

The key is adapting, to keep trying new and unpredictable things, or to add unpredictable players to a base framework (as Nuno did with Traore). And then hope it works. Leeds will be a fascinating watch this year for this reason, and Villa - if they're without Grealish - and West Ham will have to add in something new to keep progressing.

Might explain why Leeds and West Ham are two of the clubs linked with Adama.

They maybe need to add some of that unknown quantity to progress from where they are.

 

[GuzzWolf]

Great reading all and no shouting.....thanks

 

[Deleted member 9202LYK]

Excellent thread. FFP doesn't feel very fair if it stops progress of teams on the up and then forces them into sell-to-buy with the risk of getting it wrong and then potentially relegation.

I also agree with the OP that we had (who knows what will happen this season) lost our differentiation / identity (and this in turn will make it harder to convince people to join your project).

Someone said earlier we had managed to bottle lightening in those first 3 seasons. I think we personally I think we took the top off and let it escape too easily. We should have clung onto that as tightly as we could, but we basically frittered it away. Newcastle have about as much as us now.

 

[goldeneyed]

Jeff will do his business in the final two weeks of the window. Loan to buy, as with Trincao likley to feature prominently. But leaving it late is of course....risky....

 

[Wolves Heathen]

This is a great post.

Season one back in the PL we had early 30s Moutinho and Rui Patricio which you could argue was them still in their peak years. We also had Johnny (personally I think he’s Wolves best all round player) and Raul Jimenez playing on top form and Jota on many occasions was simply unplayable.

Second season in the PL Traore joined them in playing at the very top of his game, meaning we had 5/6 players that were on paper too good for a newly promoted team.

Gradually since then there has been a decline, Moutinho and Rui Patricio have aged and whilst still good players have come out of their peak years. Johnny and Raúl have suffered horrendous injuries. Add into this that Traore seems to have regressed and we sold Jota to the PL champions that is a big hit to the starting lineup of many established PL teams let alone Wolves.

This doesn’t factor in the loss of Doherty either who whilst not top class was pivotal to how Wolves played and was a vital source of goals and assists.

All in all it’s no wonder our squad/ first XI currently looks a little weaker than it has done previously.

This is a good post.

I would also add Boly with injuries and dropping off from his previous 2 seasons form, plus not replacing Benno who was really replaced by Saiss who though a steady player he isnt imo nearly as consistant a stopper as Benno, so all in all we were nearly a whole team weaker than the previous two seasons.

 

[Alex Rae The Substitute]

This is a good post.

I would also add Boly with injuries and dropping off from his previous 2 seasons form, plus not replacing Benno who was really replaced by Saiss who though a steady player he isnt imo nearly as consistant a stopper as Benno, so all in all we were nearly a whole team weaker than the previous two seasons.

Agreed, we’re basically the following starting XI players weaker now than two years ago:

Rui Patricio
Willy Boly
Johnny
Doherty
Moutinho
Traore
Jota
Raul

Whether Sa, Semedo and Neto are improvements on their respective player positions is up for debate. I don’t know about Sa - looks ok from pre-season. Personally I preferred what Doherty brought to the table than Semedo - again, subjective. I still think Jota is better than Neto at present, the latter could very well go to the top though but you’d be forgiven for saying Jota is already there playing for Liverpool.

These are huge factors behind why I am seriously pessimistic about the season ahead and with an unknown entity leading the charge in Lage it could get messy quickly. I’ve got everything crossed though this is the season where we push on and get ourselves back in the top 6 mix, because let’s not forget we were in with a shout of the CL for a period after the restart in 19/20.

 

[NorthWolf]

These are huge factors behind why I am seriously pessimistic about the season ahead and with an unknown entity leading the charge in Lage it could get messy quickly. I’ve got everything crossed though this is the season where we push on and get ourselves back in the top 6 mix, because let’s not forget we were in with a shout of the CL for a period after the restart in 19/20.

You could also add with regards the manager Nuno had a whole season in a much more forgiving league to instill the core tactical concepts to the entire group making the transition to a new league and bedding of new players alot easier than Lage who doesn't have the same time or forgiving league to work in.

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

Yeah it's underestimated just how bad some of the big clubs performed our first 2 seasons.

 

[Contrarian]

Other than last season, Nuno's Wolves stood apart from the rest of the Premier League for daring to do things differently.

Our two successive 7th place finishes were down to playing a different brand of football than the established elite. Compact, counter-attacking football, that was tough to watch at times, but wildly entertaining at others.

As a result, we were much better than the sum of our parts.

Leicester's league win demonstrated this even more. Doing things differently upset the apple cart. Yet since moving away from the style that won them the league to a more possession based game, they have never finished inside the top 4. The only way they distinguish themselves now and a big reason for their successive 5th place finishes is their transfer market acumen.

Some of our our closest rivals in the Premier League, the likes of Villa and Everton, haven't done things differently. They have spent money and wages on big-name players and tried to compete playing a similar style of football as the big boys, just not as well. High-pressing, possession-based football seems to be the thing most clubs are adopting now.

Villa enjoyed their best season for a long time last year, yet still finished 11th. Everton brought in Carlo Ancelotti, James Rodriguez and Allan, amongst others, yet still finished 10th. Leeds were lauded as one of the best footballing sides in the league, yet still only finished 9th.

Of the medium sized Premier League clubs, only West Ham really played a different brand of football last season, probably the closest to the brand of football that we had played for the previous two seasons. They finished 6th playing a similar compact, counter-attacking game.

The fear I have during this transition is that we just become another of the Premier League's also-rans. Playing high-pressing, possession-based football, only not as well as the clubs that can bring in multiple superstars in each transfer window.

Get it right and have a good season and you might finish anywhere between 6th and 11th. Get it wrong and you could end up being a Brighton, or worse still, a Fulham.

We've gone from doing things differently, to potentially doing the same things similar sized clubs with more money have done for years, without success. What makes us think we can play the same way, yet expect different results?

The only thing that stands us apart from those clubs is our transfer business has generally been better, bringing in lower-valued players through our Mendes connection and developing them into much better players.

I think we need that connection more than ever this summer, especially if any of our best players are moved on.

Rafael Leao, Renato Sanches, Goncalo Guedes, Sergio Oliveira, Carlos Vinicius, Pizzi and Ruben Vezo are all Gestifute clients at the level we need to be targeting.

We should invite Mendes over for a visit, then lock him in a room with a phone until the squad is where it needs to be!!

Some really interesting points. They say football is a simple game, ultimately. Over the years, I tend to think this is true, as well as "it's a funny old game". Unpredictable, you can never predict what happens next (which is why the Sky 6 cartel is such a blight..but that's another story).

Your last but one paragraph, those players very similar to what I've been thinking. Innovative tactics rarely have sustainabilty, the rest figure out how to cope so it really does come to the quality of players. Every time (Exhibit A: Sheff Utd, though plenty of "1 hit wonders" over the years).

As well as tactics, I think our transfer strategy changed since the second Premier League season. Before then, with Fosun, we were regularly signing (including loans) players that many would regard as above our station - even before Nuno(Cav, Costa). When Nuno joined it went through the roof, with Jota, Neves and Boly, all clearly a league ahead of the division. Then it was Rui and Moutinho, European Champions. But since then? How many players that make people go "Wow, you'd think he'd be off to a bigger club". We can kid ourselves, but with Podence, Fabio , there was no perplexing elsewhere. No double takes. Nobody else is bothered. Then we have Neto. But I'd argue that we've signed so many young players over the last 2 -3 years, pot luck says one should turn out good!

The point is, we are not buying in more players at consistent top half Premier league level. So we most likely wont be in the top half. You need the core of the team to be at that level, then experiment and develop players around it. Whether 3-4-3, 4-2-3-1 doesnt matter that much, a few points either way over a season. It's player quality that counts.

Developing players is essential, however the players who took us to 7th were good enough *already*. The likes of Neves, Boly, Jota, Traore did *some* development, but were already far ahead of the rest from the day they joined. They didn't need to develop to compete at Premier League level ,they were already there, as were Rui, Moutinho, Raul, Jonny etc. We had Semedo sign last season, I'd like to see 2 or 3 more this season at that level - or higher

 

[WolfLing]

Some really interesting points. They say football is a simple game, ultimately. Over the years, I tend to think this is true, as well as "it's a funny old game". Unpredictable, you can never predict what happens next (which is why the Sky 6 cartel is such a blight..but that's another story).

Your last but one paragraph, those players very similar to what I've been thinking. Innovative tactics rarely have sustainabilty, the rest figure out how to cope so it really does come to the quality of players. Every time (Exhibit A: Sheff Utd, though plenty of "1 hit wonders" over the years).

As well as tactics, I think our transfer strategy changed since the second Premier League season. Before then, with Fosun, we were regularly signing (including loans) players that many would regard as above our station - even before Nuno(Cav, Costa). When Nuno joined it went through the roof, with Jota, Neves and Boly, all clearly a league ahead of the division. Then it was Rui and Moutinho, European Champions. But since then? How many players that make people go "Wow, you'd think he'd be off to a bigger club". We can kid ourselves, but with Podence, Fabio , there was no perplexing elsewhere. No double takes. Nobody else is bothered. Then we have Neto. But I'd argue that we've signed so many young players over the last 2 -3 years, pot luck says one should turn out good!

The point is, we are not buying in more players at consistent top half Premier league level. So we most likely wont be in the top half. You need the core of the team to be at that level, then experiment and develop players around it. Whether 3-4-3, 4-2-3-1 doesnt matter that much, a few points either way over a season. It's player quality that counts.

Developing players is essential, however the players who took us to 7th were good enough *already*. The likes of Neves, Boly, Jota, Traore did *some* development, but were already far ahead of the rest from the day they joined. They didn't need to develop to compete at Premier League level ,they were already there, as were Rui, Moutinho, Raul, Jonny etc. We had Semedo sign last season, I'd like to see 2 or 3 more this season at that level - or higher

Yeah agreed. Patricio and Moutinho were the last real wow moments. Raul didn't have that same impact due to being a loan to buy and a relatively unheard of at the time.

We have never been more in need of a marquee signing, to unite the fanbase and raise the game of the rest of the squad.

It doesn't even have to be a big name. I'm thinking of how Zola raised the bar at Chelsea, how Di Canio raised West Ham's level. Both weren't considered top, top players at the time, which is why they chose the route they did. We basically need a crazy playmaker forward!

 

[Pengwern]

Lage is different from Nuno in that he has attention to detail in attacking & possession Football, as is clear from his pitchside instructions in the friendlies. This is not drilling into a rigid system as per Nuno but adapting to the game and thinking how to adapt as it develops.

 

[Alex Rae The Substitute]

Some really interesting points. They say football is a simple game, ultimately. Over the years, I tend to think this is true, as well as "it's a funny old game". Unpredictable, you can never predict what happens next (which is why the Sky 6 cartel is such a blight..but that's another story).

Your last but one paragraph, those players very similar to what I've been thinking. Innovative tactics rarely have sustainabilty, the rest figure out how to cope so it really does come to the quality of players. Every time (Exhibit A: Sheff Utd, though plenty of "1 hit wonders" over the years).

As well as tactics, I think our transfer strategy changed since the second Premier League season. Before then, with Fosun, we were regularly signing (including loans) players that many would regard as above our station - even before Nuno(Cav, Costa). When Nuno joined it went through the roof, with Jota, Neves and Boly, all clearly a league ahead of the division. Then it was Rui and Moutinho, European Champions. But since then? How many players that make people go "Wow, you'd think he'd be off to a bigger club". We can kid ourselves, but with Podence, Fabio , there was no perplexing elsewhere. No double takes. Nobody else is bothered. Then we have Neto. But I'd argue that we've signed so many young players over the last 2 -3 years, pot luck says one should turn out good!

The point is, we are not buying in more players at consistent top half Premier league level. So we most likely wont be in the top half. You need the core of the team to be at that level, then experiment and develop players around it. Whether 3-4-3, 4-2-3-1 doesnt matter that much, a few points either way over a season. It's player quality that counts.

Developing players is essential, however the players who took us to 7th were good enough *already*. The likes of Neves, Boly, Jota, Traore did *some* development, but were already far ahead of the rest from the day they joined. They didn't need to develop to compete at Premier League level ,they were already there, as were Rui, Moutinho, Raul, Jonny etc. We had Semedo sign last season, I'd like to see 2 or 3 more this season at that level - or higher

Very similar sentiments to me.

Moutinho, Dendoncker, Raul, Johnny, Rui Patricio, Traore… now that was a summer shopping spree that signaled intent.

Since then we may have broken transfer records - Fabio Silva, Semedo - but we’ve not come close to a transfer window like 2018/19 in terms of first team ready players.

The trajectory is a little concerning as we may have spent more but the quality doesn’t seem to be there.

 

[wwbug]

We had a distinctive way of playing and it was different so we won.
Then other clubs saw come 7th twice and respected us , people knew how we played and stopped us.
This league is tough

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

I think Lage is here to help us develop our young players into more marketable propositions.

Nuno didn't play youth players unless he absolutely had to.

I think Lages appointment is more aligned to the buy low /sell high thing that were trying to do.

I've kind of given up on youth players. We had Zele Ismail for years and that came to nothing. We've only ever produced 2 great youngsters - Lescott and Keane and that's it. I'm fed up hearing how good MGW is/will be; he's had I think about 50 games and still not convinced. Can anyone name me one of our youngsters who could turn us a profit if that's what Fosun want? I doubt we'll ever get our money back on Silva? Nuno didn't play youngsters because they weren't good enough to get in the side. You need to be Foden or Rashford quality to make a big impression as a youngster, we don't have those players. Is Lage here to get us winning and up the league or is he here to make profits on players? I know the 2 are not mutually exclusive but I hope he's focussed on amassing points.

 

[groundhogwolf]

Always love your threads @WolfLing but not sure I agree with the thinking. Let me digress into a bit of chess... A boroque opening which doesn't follow the normal patterns might work well against an experienced opponent, but after a few goes they will spot the weaknesses that make it unusual. In our first two seasons teams expected to beat us and attacked, leaving them venerable to counter attacks. Of course we were also brilliant/lucky with injuries. Eventually teams sit back more and say, you need the points here, come and get them, just like we did. So you have to change to improve. The problem of course is that change is not a synonym for improve, 4231 showed that last season, it was an exciting ride which people say they want, but that will soon change when the 1-0 wins turn into 3-2 defeats.

For them to be 3-2 defeats our opponents would need to score at least 1 own goal, we were unlikely to score 2, everything else I agre with 100%, we need to become less predictable.

 

[SoCal_Wolf]

I thought that the thread title referred to my expectations regarding the negative tone of the MolMix ...