The F****** Verdict: Scousers

[Flump]

Again, reading something and ignoring the post/it’s content as a whole simply to argue!

My post also mentioned 4 other games off the top of my head where we played in the same way, ultimately!

"Again"? I think this was my first post in this topic!

I very much doubt the plan was to simply stop Norwich - clearly we played badly and created very little, but that doesn't mean it was the intention.

 

[sc91]

Yes, I expect they did.

But players know they may have to adapt when playing one of the best teams in the world - sometimes that works, often it doesn't. Judging whether or not it was the right tactic requires a bit more than seeing the scoreline.

Yeah and as said, I'd be much more forgiving if it was a one off for the event (albeit I will never agree starting on a defensive mentality is good), except we've had a season littered with similar tactics and line ups, namely the away days.

 

[sc91]

Dunno about that. We literally didn't play like that against Watford. We didn't play particularly well but it wasn't like that.

Either that was tongue in cheek or like so many on this forum you can only recall the last five minutes at any given time.

Watford away was weirdly at the time seen as our worst performance of the season haha.

Hindsight 20/20 was that we were treated to a glut before with little rewards.

 

[Bill S Preston Esq.]

Watford away was weirdly at the time seen as our worst performance of the season haha.

Hindsight 20/20 was that we were treated to a glut before with little rewards.

It was the worst of the four but we had at least two shots, I can remember plenty of corners too. Watford were abject, Liverpool were horrifyingly efficient in their high press.

 

[Wolf316]

Dunno about that. We literally didn't play like that against Watford. We didn't play particularly well but it wasn't like that.

Either that was tongue in cheek or like so many on this forum you can only recall the last five minutes at any given time.

Watford Boxing Day and there’s no need to be an arrogant *****.

 

[The Runner]

Maybe you too need to watch the game again. I’m gonna watch it again myself several times but even without that, I know what I saw.
@WeAreTheWolvesII was right….it was wave after wave of Liverpool attacks. Ther we’re slick, gifted, creative…just awesome.
We we’re lucky the score wasn’t higher…..lucky, in the true sense of the word.

You obviously watched a different game to me. There were a couple of occasions when they were slick, gifted, creative, but for the most part they didn't drag us out of our shape and, as I've noted previously they really only had 3 really good chances plus the excellent defending from Saiss. Of course they're a good side and have been on fire recently. I thought we handled them very well. Just would have liked us to be a bit more measured when had the ball.

 

[Ned]

"Again"? I think this was my first post in this topic!

I very much doubt the plan was to simply stop Norwich - clearly we played badly and created very little, but that doesn't mean it was the intention.

That’s what I mean, we basically go back into the shell when sides start to get on top. That’s fine to weather the storm, of course, but you then have to come out of the shell. Against Norwich we stopped playing and couldn’t start again. I suppose this comes back to options off the bench though. Especially in the CM area.

 

[Bill S Preston Esq.]

Watford Boxing Day and there’s no need to be an arrogant *****.

lol.

 

[Vtrpres]

I thought I was pessimistic but not so after reading latter posts.
If you watch the Sky recording again watch Klops face when he dropped his scarf, before the goal and after. He had resigned himself to dropping two points. After the look of relief was more than apparent .
Come on Lage earn your corn.

 

[OLDGOLD]

Having thought about the Liverpool match and having seen the goal a few times now, my opinion is this;

I'm disappointed with the performance overall. It was anti football, reminiscent of the McCarthy era when we had a far more inferior squad of players.

I appreciate Liverpool are one of the World's greatest teams right now but feel we could have taken the game to them more.

Yes, we defended superbly but there was literally nothing going forward. Completely toothless.

As for the goal, Hoevers done little wrong in my opinion except fall over and give the ball away, but that was 25 yards from Liverpool's goal. By the time the ball was passed to Salah, Ki Jana was pretty much where he needed to be.

Salah's touch is unbelievable, the only one in the entire stadium to anticipate where that touch was going was the man himself. It was freakishly good. We didn't lose to a defensive error, we lost to a moment of magic.

My biggest gripe though is Raùl screaming for a foul. Firstly it wasn't a foul, secondly why did he think the ref would blow for that if he didn't blow for Fabinho's body check on the by-line? and thirdly if he'd played to the whistle he may not have got possession of the ball but he'd have at least rushed Matip who may not have so calmly found VVD who instigated the attack.

I can't believe a player of Raùl's ability and experience didn't play to the whistle. Ridiculous.

Playing to the whistle eh.? Like Adama sat on his duff waiting for a foul to be given for 20 seconds before finally getting up and trudging off. That like time wasting seems to be a part of the modern game.

 

[Bill S Preston Esq.]

Playing to the whistle eh.? Like Adama sat on his duff waiting for a foul to be given for 20 seconds before finally getting up and trudging off. That like time wasting seems to be a part of the modern game.

I'm not excusing that either. But it didn't lead to a game losing goal.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Who revels in defeat whilst simultaneously bemoaning the fact that the football is negative? The one contradicts the other.

Going into a game with the mind set of 'let's not lose', is putting you on the wrong foot before a ball has kicked, and it's not just the Liverpool game that this mantra seems to be present.

Would you say our attacking players are happy to once again be faced with more defensive duties than attacking? Would they have preferred to at least try and have a go at Liverpool, to have at least laid a glove on Norwich? Maybe even put a bit of fear into Palace?

You can only start to be negative a few times before it begins to seep in and it becomes the normal.

Can agree with some of that, but not all.

I’m not sure our attacking players are being asked to do defensive duties beyond those of any regular forward eg getting back for opposition corners, dropping deeper to win balls, etc. It’s different when the team is set up to sit deep, rarely allowing more than one or two players to advance into the opposition half. That’s not how we’ve been playing in recent games except towards the end when we’ve clearly decided to try and protect what we have. Indeed, Bruno has been critical of the players for not being adventurous enough, so it doesn’t sound like it’s an instruction. Given that, I doubt our forwards are feeling held back - more likely they’re feeling under pressure due to their lack of goal scoring or shots on goal.

As regards the first point. Some people clearly “enjoy” complaining, or find it a way of letting off steam. So a defeat or poor performance is an opportunity to criticise, with the criticism itself providing some sense of satisfaction or some relief. Conversely, while they may want to see our team win, they may not “enjoy” or feel comfortable being positive following a win or good performance. It’s not right or wrong, just different characters.

 

[JOSWolf]

We will also play that way against Watford and pay £41 for the privilege of watching it.

It will no doubt be 10 men behind the ball at Brighton as well with 2 shots on target.

 

[berwickwolf]

I enjoyed the game, thought there were moments of great skill, they won a fair bit of the 50 50s and have some class players but so do we. Neves was great again. Up until the final third we are very good indeed at times. Top 6. And it was great to be at molineux on one of those special occasions when the sound seems to start from the belly of the beast and then builds around the whole stadium as the place becomes alive in a celebration of great sport and of our mighty wolves.
However, we have two main problems,as I'm not the first to point out! We can't score. Hwang is not the answer in my opinion and we need a goal scorer. I dont know who but that's why the management at wolves earns the big bucks. But I dont think its Hwang. And secondly our manager. I admit I miss Nuno so I may be biased. But Lage seems to freeze in the headlights. He may be a great coach but he cannot manage games. To take off Traore with a minute left and put on Trincao meant we had no out. We could not relieve the pressure of the last 6 minutes. Disastrous. Hoever made a mistake: every player did at some point of the game. But the manager made awful substitutions at the wrong time. And that is very worrying. In my opinion!

 

[Johnny5]

Agreed. But don't scream for a free kick when your teammate has fallen over and allow the opposition to counter. Both at fault. Hoever was on his **** which meant he couldn't get back. Raùl stood still and screamed for a foul. He should have picked the ball up and ran in the corner if there was no support in the box.

 

[Bill S Preston Esq.]

The worry is we’re going to see these tactics more, possibly for months and even years rather than just weeks.

The rumour was Fosun weren't happy with the style of play we'd moved to under Nuno. Surely they'll not be happy with this either?

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

The rumour was Fosun weren't happy with the style of play we'd moved to under Nuno. Surely they'll not be happy with this either?

That clearly was bs to cover up the fact rift over us having no money to spend

 

[Bill S Preston Esq.]

@Johnny5

You've weirdly made it look like my quote when I know it's not. I did think to myself "it sounds like me though".

 

[Deleted member 9202LYK]

The rumour was Fosun weren't happy with the style of play we'd moved to under Nuno. Surely they'll not be happy with this either?

You can’t really argue with Bruno’s results - but I think he is MORE negative than Nuno. Nuno would set up to be very hard to score against but very often we had a pre-planned 15-20 spell where we really went for it and really tried to win.

Nuno’s style of play demanded a lot even from the wingers and forwards (see Klopp’s comments on Jota) and it wasn’t possible to keep that up for 90 mins, so Nuno was intentionally shortening the game.

I think we’ve completely lost that aspect now which is why we are the most boring team in the Premier League this season.

 

[I'm the Wanderer]

Having thought about the Liverpool match and having seen the goal a few times now, my opinion is this;

I'm disappointed with the performance overall. It was anti football, reminiscent of the McCarthy era when we had a far more inferior squad of players.

I appreciate Liverpool are one of the World's greatest teams right now but feel we could have taken the game to them more.

Yes, we defended superbly but there was literally nothing going forward. Completely toothless.

As for the goal, Hoevers done little wrong in my opinion except fall over and give the ball away, but that was 25 yards from Liverpool's goal. By the time the ball was passed to Salah, Ki Jana was pretty much where he needed to be.

Salah's touch is unbelievable, the only one in the entire stadium to anticipate where that touch was going was the man himself. It was freakishly good. We didn't lose to a defensive error, we lost to a moment of magic.

My biggest gripe though is Raùl screaming for a foul. Firstly it wasn't a foul, secondly why did he think the ref would blow for that if he didn't blow for Fabinho's body check on the by-line? and thirdly if he'd played to the whistle he may not have got possession of the ball but he'd have at least rushed Matip who may not have so calmly found VVD who instigated the attack.

I can't believe a player of Raùl's ability and experience didn't play to the whistle. Ridiculous.

Raul was probably trying to waste time to get the match overwith. Really backfired though. Hopefully he learns from it.

 

[Bankswolf The Third]

Hoever apologised in a rather nicely created social media image.
If I am honest, I don't forgive him. These social media apologies are cringe

 

[Zico]

Hoever apologised in a rather nicely created social media image.
If I am honest, I don't forgive him. These social media apologies are cringe

And most of them don't even write them themselves.

 

[WickedWolfie]

That clearly was bs to cover up the fact rift over us having no money to spend

Rather looks like it.

 

[Contrarian]

Good post.
Time after time Liverpool went through, over , around our defence like we were standing still but somehow they didn’t score but they were unlucky not to win 3 or 4 nil.
Yes Liverpool are a great team but they’re not supermen or gods…..the difference in some basic footballing skills and tactics between the teams should not have been so wide.

The difference between advanced footballing skills and mid-table Premier League *is* that huge though. It's like a very flat pyramid where only a very few are at the top and thay are all at one of the few glamour clubs across Europe. We may get a season or two of that player if lucky. Of course, people will say "Ah, but Neves". Without being aware just how lucky we were to get the likes of Neves and Jota. Then Raul. But as we know now, it's hard to repeat that. And that is exactly why our race up the league has stalled. When Neves leaves, it's going to be nightmare hard to get a replacement and expect to see 3 or 4 or more expensive failures before we manage it. Same for Raul.

We just don't have the pulling power of Liverpool (or the other 20 or so richest European clubs). And if we do produce a player who has the skills to bridge the gap. Guess what? They will move in and take him off us. If it was that easy to avoid, every other club would have done it. Southampton infamous for having produced so many players playing in Champions League final...though not for them, of course, Southampton is the testing ground. As are we. Unless of couse, Fosun start splashing the hundreds of millions every year required , for a few years. It's been said many times here "If Whoever didn't have these flaws, he wouldn't be with us " and I think that is the reality.

I appreciate what your saying. And it may sound a bit crazy at first, because on paper , it is 11 v 11 and they are all human, but the reality is comparisons with Liverpool (and Man U and Man C) are of no relevance to us. They would be in a different league, only there isn't one so they are stuck in with the likes of us . As I mentioned elsewhere, watching League 1 vs Conference and lower in the Cup, the difference is smaller than between Liverpool/City/Chelsea and most of the Premier League.

Whatever our season, our squad, the match against Liverpool is meaningless. Far more worried by the performances v Norwich and Burnley!

 

[Deleted member yltz11841]

The problems going forwards are as much about Lage's tactics and team selections. Tactically the players are miles apart and have no support due to the positioning of others, way behind and outside the box. There are no 1-2s, just send the ball wide and hope for a magical cross because we rarely have free men. No wonder we don't create anything.

Then we have team selections. Yes the squad is thin but look again. RAN, kilman and traore all had excellent games again (I know some disagree about traore but he was our only danger man for the second game in a row). All 3 are only playing due to injuries to those in front of then.

As thin as the squad is, if you never have competition for places then you'll have a problem. Marcal was awful for weeks and it took injury to get him out. Trincao has been terrible yet podence struggles to displace him and trincao's performance at (for!) norwich was one of the worst I've seen for years.

Cundle, Silva and mgw (permitted to leave) should have been getting regular 20 minute runs in the team.

The problem is as much with bruno as anyone. He's showing no flexibility and too much adherence to players not performing. The football is so poor in the opponents half and tactics so predictable, especially away from home.

Defensively he deserves credit but if you send teams out sticking 11 behind the ball then I'd sure hope you don't concede. Acceptable yesterday maybe, but even then our attacking intent was zero.

Jimenez may be off form but we never create a bloody chance so how would we know? He has no support, week in week out. Stick huang next to him with pod/trincao behind. Rotate those two with silva and traore. Fed up of this front 3. Also, traore's best has been left forward so put him back there if sticking with this.

What do you expect Bruno to do with our shape/formation we have 3 midfielders, ****ing Sunday sides in the winter have more squad depth.

 

[Contrarian]

I enjoyed the game, thought there were moments of great skill, they won a fair bit of the 50 50s and have some class players but so do we. Neves was great again. Up until the final third we are very good indeed at times. Top 6. And it was great to be at molineux on one of those special occasions when the sound seems to start from the belly of the beast and then builds around the whole stadium as the place becomes alive in a celebration of great sport and of our mighty wolves.
However, we have two main problems,as I'm not the first to point out! We can't score. Hwang is not the answer in my opinion and we need a goal scorer. I dont know who but that's why the management at wolves earns the big bucks. But I dont think its Hwang. And secondly our manager. I admit I miss Nuno so I may be biased. But Lage seems to freeze in the headlights. He may be a great coach but he cannot manage games. To take off Traore with a minute left and put on Trincao meant we had no out. We could not relieve the pressure of the last 6 minutes. Disastrous. Hoever made a mistake: every player did at some point of the game. But the manager made awful substitutions at the wrong time. And that is very worrying. In my opinion!

Some great points there. Never mind the debate about 4 at the back... there are other things far more likely to improve us. Substitutions, for a start. As you point out. Bruno does this most matches though. Either none at all, or very late and often baffling. Every match, too! Funny, but seems to me substitutions is one of the easier parts of the job. It's like Bruno wants there to be "Pause mode" like in Football Manager game, so he can spend 15 minutes studying all the stats before deciding what to do. Trincao was an odd one. There must be approximately 1 person in the ground who thought Trincao could do what Traore couldn't. And that was Bruno. Said at the time, we must have some kind of agreement over minutes on pitch or something.

 

[Deleted member yltz11841]

Let's also note that the player that scored..Was Origi the player many on here said,he couldn't hit a cow's **** with a banjo.

Tbf you could put a league 2 striker in Liverpools side and they would score plenty with the amount of chances they create.

 

[Deleted member yltz11841]

Defence is awesome just need to work out how to score goals and we’d be decent

If the defence is so awesome there’s no need to have our midfield so deep then, maybe they could help out the attackers by being closer to them.

 

[berwickwolf]

Some great points there. Never mind the debate about 4 at the back... there are other things far more likely to improve us. Substitutions, for a start. As you point out. Bruno does this most matches though. Either none at all, or very late and often baffling. Every match, too! Funny, but seems to me substitutions is one of the easier parts of the job. It's like Bruno wants there to be "Pause mode" like in Football Manager game, so he can spend 15 minutes studying all the stats before deciding what to do. Trincao was an odd one. There must be approximately 1 person in the ground who thought Trincao could do what Traore couldn't. And that was Bruno. Said at the time, we must have some kind of agreement over minutes on pitch or something.

100%. I genuinely dont understand why he leaves things so late. I kind of understood Moutinho coming on even if I was hoping for Podence. And Newcastle earlier in the season was bewildering.
I have always supported our managers, except Saunders, but I would hope we start to see more from Lage. Maybe he needs more help from his assistants.

 

[1972 i began]

Tbf you could put a league 2 striker in Liverpools side and they would score plenty with the amount of chances they create.

Well if ya put it like that Salah wouldn't score many for us would he.

People were saying he car score goals.But he did day he,and Klipperty said he loves him and it's only because of the players in front of him that he's not playing more.I'd Have him here in a heart beat.

 

[Vtrpres]

What is the latest on our injuries?
Neto
Marcal
Bolly
Jonny.
Do we need Vinagre and MG White back.
Apart from the loan outs they are still on the wage bill.
Available money or lack of it is the reason Lage is not buying players.
Incidentally has Liverpool paid for Jota yet?
If not we should send the bailiffs in to get him back.

 

[Bill S Preston Esq.]

You can’t really argue with Bruno’s results - but I think he is MORE negative than Nuno. Nuno would set up to be very hard to score against but very often we had a pre-planned 15-20 spell where we really went for it and really tried to win.

Nuno’s style of play demanded a lot even from the wingers and forwards (see Klopp’s comments on Jota) and it wasn’t possible to keep that up for 90 mins, so Nuno was intentionally shortening the game.

I think we’ve completely lost that aspect now which is why we are the most boring team in the Premier League this season.

Are we the most boring? We were exciting the first three matches, I really enjoyed the West Ham and Everton (maybe not all of it) games. I guess 2/3rds of the season have been pretty boring.

 

[The Runner]

Good post.
Time after time Liverpool went through, over , around our defence like we were standing still but somehow they didn’t score but they were unlucky not to win 3 or 4 nil.
Yes Liverpool are a great team but they’re not supermen or gods…..the difference in some basic footballing skills and tactics between the teams should not have been so w

The difference between advanced footballing skills and mid-table Premier League *is* that huge though. It's like a very flat pyramid where only a very few are at the top and thay are all at one of the few glamour clubs across Europe. We may get a season or two of that player if lucky. Of course, people will say "Ah, but Neves". Without being aware just how lucky we were to get the likes of Neves and Jota. Then Raul. But as we know now, it's hard to repeat that. And that is exactly why our race up the league has stalled. When Neves leaves, it's going to be nightmare hard to get a replacement and expect to see 3 or 4 or more expensive failures before we manage it. Same for Raul.

We just don't have the pulling power of Liverpool (or the other 20 or so richest European clubs). And if we do produce a player who has the skills to bridge the gap. Guess what? They will move in and take him off us. If it was that easy to avoid, every other club would have done it. Southampton infamous for having produced so many players playing in Champions League final...though not for them, of course, Southampton is the testing ground. As are we. Unless of couse, Fosun start splashing the hundreds of millions every year required , for a few years. It's been said many times here "If Whoever didn't have these flaws, he wouldn't be with us " and I think that is the reality.

I appreciate what your saying. And it may sound a bit crazy at first, because on paper , it is 11 v 11 and they are all human, but the reality is comparisons with Liverpool (and Man U and Man C) are of no relevance to us. They would be in a different league, only there isn't one so they are stuck in with the likes of us . As I mentioned elsewhere, watching League 1 vs Conference and lower in the Cup, the difference is smaller than between Liverpool/City/Chelsea and most of the Premier League.

Whatever our season, our squad, the match against Liverpool is meaningless. Far more worried by the performances v Norwich and Burnley!

The thing is the reality of this particular game wasn't anything like that. As I posted previously, they created very few clear cut chances. 3 or 4 nil would have been an absolute travesty.

 

[Deleted member 9202LYK]

Of course, people will say "Ah, but Neves". Without being aware just how lucky we were to get the likes of Neves and Jota. Then Raul.

Mendes is like a drug dealer- a couple of free samples and you’re hooked and then he cuts the merchandise with Vitinha or Podence or asks his mate to sort you out and you get completely robbed with a Fabio Silva.

 

[VancouverWolf]

The thing is the reality of this particular game wasn't anything like that. As I posted previously, they created very few clear cut chances. 3 or 4 nil would have been an absolute travesty.

Ok. Not the way I viewed it but to each his own.

 

[Contrarian]

The thing is the reality of this particular game wasn't anything like that. As I posted previously, they created very few clear cut chances. 3 or 4 nil would have been an absolute travesty.

Yes, though nobody would have complained at 0-2? XG was 2.5 for them, so on a good day, they would get 3.

The point is, to keep it that low, required us to have 9 behind the ball nearly the whole match. And we have an exceptionally good defence and keeper. It's everywhere else we are falling short. It's watching the interplay between their midfield and forwards. Our players are just not capable of that. Remember the Chorley cup match? We couldn't even play like that against part-timers, so what hope that we'll somehow be able to turn into a fluent, jaw-droppingly good, fast, skillful, attacking side against Norwich or Burnley? None. Not with the current squad that have been carefully selected for 4 seasons to be able to sit back and counter.

Liverpool have bought the best of the best players who they believe can play their way. Jota for £45M for example. If he hadb't have worked out, they'd have just gone out and tried another player for £45M. Where we bought Fabio and that's it. Transfer budget gone. I'm trying to point out the vast gulf between our clubs. Sure it's football and Liverpool will come unstuck a few times (nearly did against us), but expecting us to be able to score anywhere near as much as them or City, Chelsea etc is unrealistic. It's like asymmetrical, guerilla warfare for us! And as for scoring fewer than Newcastle & Burnley, well, fine if you want to swap league positions with them. I think their fans would be far happier to have scored 12 goals and have 21 points.

 

[Contrarian]

Are we the most boring? We were exciting the first three matches, I really enjoyed the West Ham and Everton (maybe not all of it) games. I guess 2/3rds of the season have been pretty boring.

Watford have been thrilling overall! 20 goals they've scored. Conceded 29. Their only boring match was against us, coincidentally... I bet their fans would swap positions with us without thinking twice, though.

 

[JOSWolf]

Watford have been thrilling overall! 20 goals they've scored. Conceded 29. Their only boring match was against us, coincidentally... I bet their fans would swap positions with us without thinking twice, though.

They have actually become a very attractive side under Ranieri but are prone to conceding a lot of goals but they go for it in games.

 

[Deleted member yltz11841]

Well if ya put it like that Salah wouldn't score many for us would he.

People were saying he car score goals.But he did day he,and Klipperty said he loves him and it's only because of the players in front of him that he's not playing more.I'd Have him here in a heart beat.

The best players on the planet would struggle in how we set up to score goals as our midfield is soo deep.

 

[The Runner]

Yes, though nobody would have complained at 0-2? XG was 2.5 for them, so on a good day, they would get 3.

The point is, to keep it that low, required us to have 9 behind the ball nearly the whole match. And we have an exceptionally good defence and keeper. It's everywhere else we are falling short. It's watching the interplay between their midfield and forwards. Our players are just not capable of that. Remember the Chorley cup match? We couldn't even play like that against part-timers, so what hope that we'll somehow be able to turn into a fluent, jaw-droppingly good, fast, skillful, attacking side against Norwich or Burnley? None. Not with the current squad that have been carefully selected for 4 seasons to be able to sit back and counter.

Liverpool have bought the best of the best players who they believe can play their way. Jota for £45M for example. If he hadb't have worked out, they'd have just gone out and tried another player for £45M. Where we bought Fabio and that's it. Transfer budget gone. I'm trying to point out the vast gulf between our clubs. Sure it's football and Liverpool will come unstuck a few times (nearly did against us), but expecting us to be able to score anywhere near as much as them or City, Chelsea etc is unrealistic. It's like asymmetrical, guerilla warfare for us! And as for scoring fewer than Newcastle & Burnley, well, fine if you want to swap league positions with them. I think their fans would be far happier to have scored 12 goals and have 21 points.

Of course I agree with what you say, just disagree that Liverpool were that great on Saturday. Jota's miss is a big part of the XG and as I've bored everyone by pointing out on a number of occasions, if he puts the ball in the net it gets disallowed due to his foul on Saiss.