So , what are we going to do about it ?

[Fenrir_]

So why does none of the stupidity, laziness and incompetence ever go in Wolves favour then?
Something is hugely amiss, I don't know what, but it definitely isn't right.

This is the crux. I'd accept incompetence as an excuse if we'd had one or two go our way, but we don't. The odds of having all these major decisions going the wrong way but always against us is astronomical, especially when you take into account these often aren't 50/50 situations. Monday night, four big decisions the officials got wrong, being generous to Fulham you could say two were 50/50 but the other two were nailed on and should have gone in our favour, but all four went for Fulham. That is not incompetence

 

[SuperGran]

This is the crux. I'd accept incompetence as an excuse if we'd had one or two go our way, but we don't. The odds of having all these major decisions going the wrong way but always against us is astronomical, especially when you take into account these often aren't 50/50 situations. Monday night, four big decisions, being generous to Fulham you could say two were 50/50 but the other two were nailed on and should have gone in our favour, but all four went for Fulham. That is not incompetence

I used to think it was crazy to talk of corruption now it’s crazy to talk of incompetence impossible to have one sided incompetence

 

[Ned]

This is the crux. I'd accept incompetence as an excuse if we'd had one or two go our way, but we don't. The odds of having all these major decisions going the wrong way but always against us is astronomical, especially when you take into account these often aren't 50/50 situations. Monday night, four big decisions, being generous to Fulham you could say two were 50/50 but the other two were nailed on and should have gone in our favour, but all four went for Fulham. That is not incompetence

Exactly. The first penalty not being overturned for getting the ball and the second penalty being overturned for slight contact shows, to me anyway, that it was the officials looking for those particular outcomes. I refuse to believe that a fully trained professional can look at the first penalty, see that Semedo got the ball and still give it - a five year old would have got the right decision.

 

[Flea]

This is the crux. I'd accept incompetence as an excuse if we'd had one or two go our way, but we don't. The odds of having all these major decisions going the wrong way but always against us is astronomical, especially when you take into account these often aren't 50/50 situations. Monday night, four big decisions, being generous to Fulham you could say two were 50/50 but the other two were nailed on and should have gone in our favour, but all four went for Fulham. That is not incompetence

I agree.
It is just something that ain´t right here.
It simply has to be since we are permanently on the wrong end of those horrendous decisions in a timespan going on for seasons.
It cannot be just random...it is virtually impossible.
There is something rotten here.It is the logical and sensible conclusion.

 

[Beeches wolf]

I think the strongest message to the PGMOL would be if the benefiting manager joined the interview with the losing manager to condemn the decision. He would have nothing to lose as the result would not be changed.
The interview would be seen be millions around the world. These injustice decisions are happening to all teams last night it was Newcastle's turn, and next weekend we will see the same again. Its about time the managers put aside their own interests for the good of the game, because they could be on the receiving end of a bad decision next.

 

[Fenrir_]

I think the strongest message to the PGMOL would be if the benefiting manager joined the interview with the losing manager to condemn the decision. He would have nothing to lose as the result would not be changed.
The interview would be seen be millions around the world. These injustice decisions are happening to all teams last night it was Newcastle's turn, and next weekend we will see the same again. Its about time the managers put aside their own interests for the good of the game, because they could be on the receiving end of a bad decision next.

You're right but this is a major part of the problem. Marco Silva agreed with the decision(s), Eric Ten Hag was the only person in the Galaxy who thought Onana didn't foul Dawson. Eddie Howe probably gave Schar a high five for practicing his diving so well. They all protect their own interests

But I don't think it's necessarily all down to other managers. I actually think that if we get a shocker go our way, if O'Neil came out and lambasted it, after all the crap we've been on the end of, that would echo louder than anything

Just need that shocker to go our way (won't hold my breath!)

 

[surreywolf]

Pointless doing it away from home. We can do it for Burnley and Chelsea fill the ground with f VAR that’s not going to stop us getting behind the team

depends on what ‘it’ is, but thanks

 

[lobodelsur]

It does look like you have to 'play the game' in today's Premier League - initiating contact and basically diving, pressuring the referee and making big noise in the media when things don't go your way.

It's not nice but it's unfortunately part of the game now. Think we are going to have to stop being so nice and quite frankly, a bit naive.

Just look at the stick Podence got on here for being frequently out-muscled...so now we're changing our position ?

 

[lobodelsur]

I think we should all march to Parliament next Saturday (trumping all the Gaza protests) ...

Good luck finding 300.000 Wolves supporters.

 

[lobodelsur]

As fans we can do literally nothing to ensure any changes. But the club can and should put pressure on the PL to take action. How ?
They should insist that each time the independent panel which looks at referees performances, VAR etc decides that there was an incorrect decision (and we have suffered from what, 5 ? so far) that a theoretical League table be drawn up at the end of the season and we be compensated financially for the placing we missed out on. So if the PL ended today (and each league place is worth aound 2 million) and we are theoretically 4 places below where we should be we would be owed 8 million. A few years of such payouts to a series of clubs and they'll soon look to do something about VAR. Where does the money come from ? Frankly I don't care but I guess the PL has a healthy profit margin.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

As fans we can do literally nothing to ensure any changes. But the club can and should put pressure on the PL to take action. How ?
They should insist that each time the independent panel which looks at referees performances, VAR etc decides that there was an incorrect decision (and we have suffered from what, 5 ? so far) that a theoretical League table be drawn up at the end of the season and we be compensated financially for the placing we missed out on. So if the PL ended today (and each league place is worth aound 2 million) and we are theoretically 4 places below where we should be we would be owed 8 million. A few years of such payouts to a series of clubs and they'll soon look to do something about VAR. Where does the money come from ? Frankly I don't care but I guess the PL has a healthy profit margin.

I was thinking about this sort of thing earlier. There is certainly a financial value which can be attached to what’s happening to us.

 

[Contrarian]

I'm at the stage where I think if someone did come up with a 99.9% absolutely guaranteed accurated decision making system, those running the game would be terrified of it.

Money talks. Think back to when Boly scored that accidental hand ball goal against Man City. It was missed at the time. Yet the outcry afterwards was so great, that they changed the rules at the end of that season. For 100+ years, if handball was "accidental", and resulted in a goal, then it was deemed acceptable - so long as it was accidental, of course. You have to suspect the rule changed happened then because the incident went against one of the wealtiest clubs in the world.

Two things are ruining the game for me, diving/simulating/all round cheatery and referee bias (towards the Sky 6). Yet neither get mentioned by those running the game. They seem more obsessed with toenail offsides, adding umpteen sections to the handball rule every season and the sheer evil horror of players kicking the ball away or celebrating too much after a goal. I know it sounds cynical, but the fact they ignore diving and refuse to acknowledge any possibility of bias while obsessing on minor details elsewhere is what's pushed me down that route. I can only assume they like it this way and things are working as they want. After all ,the current league table (5 of the right clubs in the top 6) shows how well the system is working, as it does every season.

 

[Hazza]

As fans we can do literally nothing to ensure any changes. But the club can and should put pressure on the PL to take action. How ?
They should insist that each time the independent panel which looks at referees performances, VAR etc decides that there was an incorrect decision (and we have suffered from what, 5 ? so far) that a theoretical League table be drawn up at the end of the season and we be compensated financially for the placing we missed out on. So if the PL ended today (and each league place is worth aound 2 million) and we are theoretically 4 places below where we should be we would be owed 8 million. A few years of such payouts to a series of clubs and they'll soon look to do something about VAR. Where does the money come from ? Frankly I don't care but I guess the PL has a healthy profit margin.

I haven’t worked it out but I think we’d be higher as you have to take points off the other teams as well as adding them into ours (so 2 off Man U, Newcastle, Sheff Utd, Luton and Fulham)

Actually, taking it one step further would be quite funny if the 2 points both Luton and Sheff United got put Everton down

 

[wwbug]

We need an respected independent journalist to bring this to the fore.
There is no way anyone who complains from our club will be treated as anything but whiners or conspiracy theorists.

 

[Bankswolf The Third]

We need an respected independent journalist to bring this to the fore.
There is no way anyone who complains from our club we'll be treated as anything but whiners or conspiracy theorists.

That was happening after the Fulham game. Plenty of journos and BBC and Sky have acknowledged that it happens more to us than anyone
Under Nuno, Bruno and Lop it kept happening but they never paid as much attention then, clearly the media desperation for Gary to be successful has led this

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

I know there is now a thread on legal action against PGMOL but I think it is worth the Club at least exploring this avenue. At the end of the season it will be financially quantifiable to see how many millions we have lost by a lower league placing due to bad VAR decisions. To me Wolves are the victims and PGMOL are clearly the offenders (black and white, no argument), we can quantify the financial loss, so taking legal advice at this stage would be prudent imo and put PGMOL on notice.

 

[Golden Arrow]

I know there is now a thread on legal action against PGMOL but I think it is worth the Club at least exploring this avenue. At the end of the season it will be financially quantifiable to see how many millions we have lost by a lower league placing due to bad VAR decisions. To me Wolves are the victims and PGMOL are clearly the offenders (black and white, no argument), we can quantify the financial loss, so taking legal advice at this stage would be prudent imo and put PGMOL on notice.

Crikey, where are we going with this.
Next stop it will be historic cases where we contest the "hand of god" goal or McGinlays assault on Kelly at Burden Park.
I'm as ****ed off as the next person (especially as the round trip cost me two hundred notes), but if we're not careful the game will disappear up its own **** if lawsuits become the norm.

 

[old wittonian]

Crikey, where are we going with this.
Next stop it will be historic cases where we contest the "hand of god" goal or McGinlays assault on Kelly at Burden Park.
I'm as ****ed off as the next person (especially as the round trip cost me two hundred notes), but if we're not careful the game will disappear up its own **** if lawsuits become the norm.

I think a lawsuit would certainly focus the mind of the PGMOL.

 

[Golden Arrow]

I think a lawsuit would certainly focus the mind of the PGMOL.

Perhaps it would, but all i want back is the game of Association Football that I grew up, without the over analysis and court room drama.
If a referee gets it wrong, it may be that we have to question his legitimacy, but at least the game flows and we won't have to break for nibbles and refreshment whilst we await the decision from Stockley Park.

 

[lobodelsur]

if we're not careful the game will disappear up its own ****

Some of us think that it already has, courtesy of VAR/PGMOL.

 

[Golden Arrow]

Some of us think that it already has, courtesy of VAR/PGMOL.

I need to try and see the bigger picture here, otherwise I'll be blaming Brexit and Covid for the current footballing climate.
Suppose we just use VAR for offsides and the off-ball incidents (Kilman for example), and allow the officials to look after the rest.

 

[Oh When the Wolves]

When the teams line up beforehand, Sean derry should walk onto the pitch and headbut the ref, softly .

 

[lobodelsur]

I need to try and see the bigger picture here, otherwise I'll be blaming Brexit and Covid for the current footballing climate.
Suppose we just use VAR for offsides and the off-ball incidents (Kilman for example), and allow the officials to look after the rest.

That would be a start. Also, how about using Wenger's definition of offside i.e. there has to be clear daylight between all of the attacker and the defender for the former to be offside. And back to the old, simple-to-understand, definition of hand ball - was it ball to hand or hand to ball ?

 

[wwbug]

Even before VAR I tired of the obsessive chatter on referee decisions.
Managers use it as an excuse to avoid talking about their teams weaknesses. Pundits use it to fill in time and replace intelligent football analysis.
IMO it will always be this way - VAR or no VAR

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Even before VAR I tired of the obsessive chatter on referee decisions.
Managers use it as an excuse to avoid talking about their teams weaknesses. Pundits use it to fill in time and replace intelligent football analysis.
IMO it will always be this way - VAR or no VAR

I think this is true. I will be able to celebrate a goal as soon as I've checked the lino isn't flagging though.

 

[Darvo]

If it’s incompetence why don’t we get any decisions in our favour?

This. There’s just been too many now. Something is going on.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

I haven’t worked it out but I think we’d be higher as you have to take points off the other teams as well as adding them into ours (so 2 off Man U, Newcastle, Sheff Utd, Luton and Fulham)

Actually, taking it one step further would be quite funny if the 2 points both Luton and Sheff United got put Everton down

Not just points, but adjust the goals for and against too, both for us and the teams we played.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Even before VAR I tired of the obsessive chatter on referee decisions.
Managers use it as an excuse to avoid talking about their teams weaknesses. Pundits use it to fill in time and replace intelligent football analysis.
IMO it will always be this way - VAR or no VAR

This may be true, but that doesn’t address the issue of bias in the decisions, whether with or without VAR.

Pre VAR, Old Trafford, was anything but a level playing field. In a decade, only 3 penalties awarded to visiting teams, none of which were scored. United were routinely given “Fergie Time” if United needed to score at the end of the game. And so on. That bias was real, and widely acknowledged.

Man Utd didn't concede from pen at home in 10 years with only three against them

A remarkable run from December 1993 to April 2004 saw Manchester United not concede from a penalty in the Premier League at Old Trafford, with all three given being missed

www.dailystar.co.uk

Post VAR, bias in officiating has continued but with the added tool of VAR for officials to intervene and affect the game. VAR reviews can be breezed over or in extreme detail, depending on who the decision is for or against. VAR angles can ignored, or even go missing, if needed. The term “clear and obvious” has and can be made to have many shades of grey, communications between officials remain opaque, rules can be reinterpreted after the fact, and a host of other ways that desired decisions can be justified in a world of highly televised football.

For Wolves specifically, no matter what the opinion is on officials competence, what can’t be ignored is the very strong bias in the key wrong (by PGMOL acknowledgment) decisions for and against Wolves. Specifically, 4 games in 13 this season where key decisions have gone against us, and zero when they have gone for us. The odds of that being random incompetence are extremely high.

 

[old wittonian]

Perhaps it would, but all i want back is the game of Association Football that I grew up, without the over analysis and court room drama.
If a referee gets it wrong, it may be that we have to question his legitimacy, but at least the game flows and we won't have to break for nibbles and refreshment whilst we await the decision from Stockley Park.

Perhaps a lawsuit would help achieve your desired aim.

 

[WinchWolf]

I' settle for the ref & vars to lose their match fees (or even a fine) each time this happens together with relegation to league 1 for a month.

 

[Hazza]

I' settle for the ref & vars to lose their match fees (or even a fine) each time this happens together with relegation to league 1 for a month.

There’d be none left to ref the premier games.

I never understand the demotion thing…. Why should supporter of league one clubs have to put up with them

 

[old wittonian]

This may be true, but that doesn’t address the issue of bias in the decisions, whether with or without VAR.

Pre VAR, Old Trafford, was anything but a level playing field. In a decade, only 3 penalties awarded to visiting teams, none of which were scored. United were routinely given “Fergie Time” if United needed to score at the end of the game. And so on. That bias was real, and widely acknowledged.

Man Utd didn't concede from pen at home in 10 years with only three against them

A remarkable run from December 1993 to April 2004 saw Manchester United not concede from a penalty in the Premier League at Old Trafford, with all three given being missed

www.dailystar.co.uk

Post VAR, bias in officiating has continued but with the added tool of VAR for officials to intervene and affect the game. VAR reviews can be breezed over or in extreme detail, depending on who the decision is for or against. VAR angles can ignored, or even go missing, if needed. The term “clear and obvious” has and can be made to have many shades of grey, communications between officials remain opaque, rules can be reinterpreted after the fact, and a host of other ways that desired decisions can be justified in a world of highly televised football.

For Wolves specifically, no matter what the opinion is on officials competence, what can’t be ignored is the very strong bias in the key wrong (by PGMOL acknowledgment) decisions for and against Wolves. Specifically, 4 games in 13 this season where key decisions have gone against us, and zero when they have gone for us. The odds of that being random incompetence are extremely high.

On the balance of probabilities you're correct.
Webbs apologies are virtually an admission of liability and he may rue making them.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

Crikey, where are we going with this.
Next stop it will be historic cases where we contest the "hand of god" goal or McGinlays assault on Kelly at Burden Park.
I'm as ****ed off as the next person (especially as the round trip cost me two hundred notes), but if we're not careful the game will disappear up its own **** if lawsuits become the norm.

Legally you can't financially quantify McGinlay's goal against us but you can with these bad VAR decisions at the end of the season. No other side has suffered under VAR as we have so I feel there would be some sympathy from other sides, esp as a court case would not affect other sides with possible relegation - it would be us v PGMOL. I'd be interested to see what the legal view would be if we were to consider a legal action.

 

[surreywolf]

if we're not careful the game will disappear up its own **** if lawsuits become the norm.

It’s already dying because of what’s happened

I don’t think people are fully appreciating what’s happening, player behaviour is changing to get penalties more than ever before and the game is changing massively

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

It’s already dying because of what’s happened

I don’t think people are fully appreciating what’s happening, player behaviour is changing to get penalties more than ever before and the game is changing massively

I think you're right. Players are more savvy than ever. They know how to simulate a trip in the area and the exaggerated fall to con the ref. They know to hold their face and roll about in agony even when they haven't been touched. They do it because they know the ref is more likely to side with them than not - how many players get booked for diving? Hardly any and it happens in almost every game now. It is a sad state of affairs but whilst refs get it wrong week in week out it only encourages players to cheat more.

 

[inaglasshouse]

We can't be wasting our time taking anyone to court, that is unless there is evidence of corruption eg a money trail or recordings showing malicious intent or witness statements at the very least. We need a whistle-blower but sadly they all have whistles just not for this haha.
Other than that it's just a matter of opinion, even if we don't get another 30 decisions, it's still that, in court anyway.
For the record I do think some other force is at play and its not just bad luck. What that is im not sure. Could be financial, could be political , could be they just don't like us.