Project Big Picture

[Bill S Preston Esq.]

Crewe Alexandra Vice-Chairman Charles Grant just been on BBC Sport and announced he is totally in favour of the proposal. His logic being that clubs in the lower leagues will at last finally benefit from the huge money in the Prem and that the top six with extra power does not have any effect on the lower clubs because they always were the most powerfull anyway. Also he knows that clubs like Crewe would never get promoted to the Prem anyway.

Seems that the sugar coated pill is there for the lower league to swallow

Thankfully the likes of Crewe Alexandra don't get to vote for it.

 

[Bill S Preston Esq.]

almost as if he went in as a sleeper agent

It does look quite fishy.

 

[JadeWolf]

Crewe Alexandra Vice-Chairman Charles Grant just been on BBC Sport and announced he is totally in favour of the proposal. His logic being that clubs in the lower leagues will at last finally benefit from the huge money in the Prem and that the top six with extra power does not have any effect on the lower clubs because they always were the most powerfull anyway. Also he knows that clubs like Crewe would never get promoted to the Prem anyway.

Seems that the sugar coated pill is there for the lower league to swallow

He'll probably change his mind once they fix the rules regarding poaching academy players again. Crewe have a decent academy for a small club, that won't last long.

 

[Lycaon]

Tbh, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the majority of lower league clubs went along with this simply because it offers them a lifeline and are currently in a totally desperate situation. I’m amazed they’ve managed to carry on over the last 6 months if truth be known.
The main problem is with the remaining premiership clubs who will have no say or voting rights to challenge any future proposals and will be shafted to the point of not being able to compete on merit.
Sad days for professional football as we love and know it.

 

[The_Blade]

Who gave the 2 American owned clubs the nod to spend thousands in formulating this proposal over the last 3 years?

 

[JadeWolf]

Tbh, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the majority of lower league clubs went along with this simply because it offers them a lifeline and are currently in a totally desperate situation. I’m amazed they’ve managed to carry on over the last 6 months if truth be known.
The main problem is with the remaining premiership clubs who will have no say or voting rights to challenge any future proposals and will be shafted to the point of not being able to compete on merit.
Sad days for professional football as we love and know it.

My worry is if someone like us tries to vote it down (rightly imo), we'll be accused of not wanting to help the Football League out. Guilt tripped into doing it really.

 

[Chris H]

Ive always felt the covid situation would lead to the PL taking over the Championship. This goes way beyond that and gives 6/9 teams a massive leg up. If they remove the voting mechanism I don’t see what there is to oppose really

Aside from the voting mechanism, another questionable item hidden away in it is this one: -

All Premier League clubs have the exclusive rights to sell eight live matches a season directly to fans via their own digital platforms in all international territories.

This for me would have to be removed too for it to be more acceptable. It’s actually one of the more devious bits in there in my opinion but has largely been overlooked.

That clause would allow the big 6 to create a much bigger divide as they could bring in far greater revenue from selling their own games than other teams in the league. But more so than that, by allowing that to happen it would reduce the value of the rights packages they sell to broadcasters as they no longer get the same level of games, they no longer get exclusivity and, in foreign markets they wouldn’t be selling the whole seasons games. This would result in international rights packages reducing in value, potentially quite significantly and resulting in the pot getting smaller which would damage every club that couldn’t make the short fall back up through selling their own games to fans.

In fact, it would also damage the EFL too as they’d get 25% of what could be a much smaller pie than it is now meaning the additional money they expect from this could be lower than they’re anticipating.

I’m sure there are other things hidden within the details that would be questionable too but haven’t been divulged yet.

 

[Chris H]

My worry is if someone like us tries to vote it down (rightly imo), we'll be accused of not wanting to help the Football League out. Guilt tripped into doing it really.

This is exactly what they’ll try to do.

The other 14 could be clever though and come together themselves and put forward a proposal alongside the PL that has all the good aspects of this plan without the power grab and benefits for the big 6.

They could even then push it through as, if they all agree they’d have enough to have a majority as it takes 14 of the 20 which they could do if they’re tactful.

What a **** you that would be to the sky 6 too, it would be great!

 

[Nivada]

I have faith that isn't going to go through, just the mad rambling of some American business man

 

[WonderWolf]

My worry is if someone like us tries to vote it down (rightly imo), we'll be accused of not wanting to help the Football League out. Guilt tripped into doing it really.

Not really.

The guilt is there only if you are foolish enough to believe the weighted ‘proposal’ as is is the only viable one going.

There can easily be other, more digestible ones on offer for sure.

There is no actual authorised ‘God’ controller to the situation….’Who the **** do these power ****ers think they are offering this biased ****??? ‘

Time for all to grow some. ...

 

[Kebab Warrior]

I honestly think this will be the death knell of English football. It’s actually anti-English in the sense of it’s totally opposed to our perceived values - fairness, equality, the underdog etc. It’s literally everything our country has fought against for a 1,000 years. Dictatorship, totalitarianism... from the Armada, to the Nazis.
Whatever you think of England or it’s history, for all our faults I want my children to believe that the little guy has a chance, that everyone has a vote, has a say, that we are treated equally and we aren’t ruled over by bullies & tyrants.

Otherwise the truth is we gave up, gave in and sold out our culture, the very fabric of our society for a few prices of silver.

If we let this happen we can never go back and England will have tarnished part of her soul.

 

[Newbridge Wolf]

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/united-and-liverpool-driving-project-big-picture-football’s-biggest-shake-up-in-a-generation.458116/


United fans seem largely against, this was an amusing and spot on comment

“On paper a lot of these seem like good moves. However, none of these football clubs, especially not our own or Liverpool, are altruistic in any way, which leads me to think that these suggestions are sketchy if you look beneath the surface, where you'll find that this is all being done to make them more money in some way.”

 

[Kebab Warrior]

 

[Lycaon]

I have faith that isn't going to go through, just the mad rambling of some American business man

Yes agree, but this is not mad ramblings!
This has been thought out over many years and the main culprits have seized the opportunity in very uncertain times to pounce!
It’s a premeditated attempt to destabilise the Premier League under the leadership of Rick Parry.
Doesn’t this guy have previous?!

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

My worry is if someone like us tries to vote it down (rightly imo), we'll be accused of not wanting to help the Football League out. Guilt tripped into doing it really.

Why are the other issues even on the table? Why is "if we help them out then we want a dictatorship of 6" even being mentioned?

It's as see-through as a wicked witch in a brothers grimm fairytale. "I'll save your life but you must give me your first unborn child". Everyone can see it for the disgusting power grab it is, and there is no way it will go through.

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

I'm 100% against a lot of the plan but we have to be honest here. The bottom 14 clubs are being just as selfish as the big 6 in terms of protecting ourselves and pulling up the ladder to EFL.

 

[derbyrameater]

It was bound to happen once the Americans took over some clubs. They've dabbled in rule changes in the p[ast but nothing serious and all chucked out.

I wrote years ago once there are enough of them then expect the game to change into a US format i.e. no draws..4 quarters etc.

I don't think they have the numbers yet

8 clubs have US owners.

 

[St.Simon.]

What power do the top 6 get ?

Massive!!!

 

[Leominster_Wolf]

We could embarrass this project by making Covid payments to struggling local sides to ensure they keep afloat.

We don't need to give the top 6 all the power to ensure that the EFL doesn't go bust

You know reading through this thread I’d just had a similar thought. What if someone like fosun, or Guo donated £5m to each L1 & L2 teams. 48 teams, £240m. Pocket change really.
or offer £10m interest free loan/bond to those clubs that need it, repayable 5 years after things back to normal (i’m sure it’d be tax deductible somehow anyway)

would really be embarrassing and show these ****ers for what they are.

Jeff if you’re reading, you know it makes sense!!

 

[Bill S Preston Esq.]

My worry is if someone like us tries to vote it down (rightly imo), we'll be accused of not wanting to help the Football League out. Guilt tripped into doing it really.

No chance. Turn it back on the *******s. We'll bail out the EFL/FA in exchange for an equal share of TV revenues and a 1/20 vote on everything.

 

[bigbadwolftoo]

It was bound to happen once the Americans took over some clubs. They've dabbled in rule changes in the p[ast but nothing serious and all chucked out.

I wrote years ago once there are enough of them then expect the game to change into a US format i.e. no draws..4 quarters etc.

I don't think they have the numbers yet

8 clubs have US owners.

US driven for sure. Would be the first step into the slide to franchised clubs and the eventual end to the English/Welsh football pyramid as we know it, with globetrotting clubs with large armchair fanbases and the end of all that is held by essentially community based clubs.

This is a disgraceful attempted coup of the worst kind, rolled out at a time of crisis in the hope of sliding it through in some beneficial form essentially for a few power hungry wanna-be franchises and in the longer term the great detriment to the majority.

Surely the premier league can come up with a simple way to channel some cash to the EFL in a more beneficial way with allround benefit for ALL!

This proposal stinks with Parry the Liverpool **** orchestrating as a lap-dog of his previous employers!

 

[RMNottm]

VAR, Covid, rip off Sky, BT etc. do they want fans at all.

But it is Wolves...

 

[AndyY]

I’d hate to see the League Cup go. For supporters of some clubs, it represents the only real chance they have of seeing their sides play against some of the top Premier League’s best (well, their best reserves anyway).

Of course, if the Big Six really wanted to reduce the number of games, maybe they could work with UEFA to make the Champions League a straight knock-out tournament. Or even just for the Champions of each country...

I, too, think the League Cup should stay - it gives one of the few competitive opportunities for fringe and younger players to be tested/ develop in a first team environment, with the added carrot of We bleh and Europe for the club as a whole.

 

[Henry Palfrey]

Yes agree, but this is not mad ramblings!
This has been thought out over many years and the main culprits have seized the opportunity in very uncertain times to pounce!
It’s a premeditated attempt to destabilise the Premier League under the leadership of Rick Parry.
Doesn’t this guy have previous?!

And not least because they can see the nation’s own government indulging in similar underhand practices and bypassing of usual tendering procedures to feather their own and their associates nests under the auspices of emergency procurement. It’s the perfect time for a power grab.
No crowds so no chanting, no banners, no protests.

 

[Wolves Glassboy]

It’s both. He is a permanent-tanned, arrogant ****er. That happens to talk sense fairly regularly.

and apparently has carnal knowledge of the fine and lovely Susannah Reid

 

[stever]

The whole thing is wrong when certain clubs are getting 'special status'. Terrible.

 

[WinchWolf]

Aside from the voting mechanism, another questionable item hidden away in it is this one: -

All Premier League clubs have the exclusive rights to sell eight live matches a season directly to fans via their own digital platforms in all international territories.

This for me would have to be removed too for it to be more acceptable. It’s actually one of the more devious bits in there in my opinion but has largely been overlooked.

That clause would allow the big 6 to create a much bigger divide as they could bring in far greater revenue from selling their own games than other teams in the league. But more so than that, by allowing that to happen it would reduce the value of the rights packages they sell to broadcasters as they no longer get the same level of games, they no longer get exclusivity and, in foreign markets they wouldn’t be selling the whole seasons games. This would result in international rights packages reducing in value, potentially quite significantly and resulting in the pot getting smaller which would damage every club that couldn’t make the short fall back up through selling their own games to fans.

In fact, it would also damage the EFL too as they’d get 25% of what could be a much smaller pie than it is now meaning the additional money they expect from this could be lower than they’re anticipating.

I’m sure there are other things hidden within the details that would be questionable too but haven’t been divulged yet.

You're right and 30 of those games could be just the games between the 'big' 6 playing each other, the so called big games. This would dramatically reduce the value of any sports package, leaving everyone else to feed off scraps.

 

[WinchWolf]

I worry that they'll get the numbers, they have left a threat dangling that they'll leave the PL and join the EFL and leave the other 14 on their own. The EFL would jump at that (especially under Parry). Worrying times.

 

[JonahWolf]

This is exactly what they’ll try to do.

The other 14 could be clever though and come together themselves and put forward a proposal alongside the PL that has all the good aspects of this plan without the power grab and benefits for the big 6.

They could even then push it through as, if they all agree they’d have enough to have a majority as it takes 14 of the 20 which they could do if they’re tactful.

What a **** you that would be to the sky 6 too, it would be great!

Thing is, as a worst case scenario, the sky 6 would still take the redistribution of wealth downwards and 1/20 equal voting rights.
Because it still damages others more than them, as they have the greater non-TV revenue, plus huge back-dated bungs on Tottenham and Liverpool’s stadium work.
They can back down on all the most extreme points (thus selling it as all benevolence) and still gain ground in the wealth gap at worst.

 

[sedgwolf1980]

The more I read about this, the angrier I get.

You often get accused on here, and in general in fairness, of being a silly old romantic, or even a racist or sexist, for pining back for what football was like when you were younger and growing up. Ie, working class, male dominated, dangerous on and off the pitch. Tribal. Real.

Well, for me that’s what football is all about. Saturday, 3pm. Not this sanitised, globalised crap.

Reading through all this today has just reminded me how much I hate most aspects of modern football.

 

[Sedgley Gold N Black]

For anyone gullible supporting this Top 6 power grab.

MARTIN SAMUEL: Project Big Picture' is a disgusting Big Six power grab

MARTIN SAMUEL: Rick Parry helped destroy the fabric of English football once, and now he's going for it again. Project Big Picture? Far from saving our game, all it would do is reduce.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Great article from Samuel, this line sums it up perfectly:

“Paying £250million to the EFL and £100m to the FA, the clubs are equal. When voting, sharing television revenue, creaming off the profits of PPV, they are not.”

 

[rincewind]

It's sad that many Liverpool fans seem happy with this. I know it's pretty blatantly meant to reinforce FFPs efforts to stop those outside of the Sky 6 dreaming but Scousers generally were fair minded. But a lot seem happy to grab everything they can as well now.
As for Spursand Arsenal, short term this might be good but they will lose all their foreign plastic fans if they're getting pumped in some expanded European competition every midweek.

 

[Lycaon]

Just think about it, whoever came up with the wording “Project Big Picture” is either deluded or simply following orders to make it sound that the ‘deal” is better than nothing.
There’s no “big picture” at all, but just smokescreen and mirrors in an attempt to obtain misplaced credibility.

 

[SakosRightFoot]

Aside from the voting mechanism, another questionable item hidden away in it is this one: -

All Premier League clubs have the exclusive rights to sell eight live matches a season directly to fans via their own digital platforms in all international territories.

This for me would have to be removed too for it to be more acceptable. It’s actually one of the more devious bits in there in my opinion but has largely been overlooked.

That clause would allow the big 6 to create a much bigger divide as they could bring in far greater revenue from selling their own games than other teams in the league. But more so than that, by allowing that to happen it would reduce the value of the rights packages they sell to broadcasters as they no longer get the same level of games, they no longer get exclusivity and, in foreign markets they wouldn’t be selling the whole seasons games. This would result in international rights packages reducing in value, potentially quite significantly and resulting in the pot getting smaller which would damage every club that couldn’t make the short fall back up through selling their own games to fans.

In fact, it would also damage the EFL too as they’d get 25% of what could be a much smaller pie than it is now meaning the additional money they expect from this could be lower than they’re anticipating.

I’m sure there are other things hidden within the details that would be questionable too but haven’t been divulged yet.

In reality to make other clubs 8 games the most lucrative they could be they’d be all their matches against the big 6, which would totally decimate any normal tv deals as the top teams away games would never be on and the biggest matches between the top 6 would all be chosen too

 

[SakosRightFoot]

I worry that they'll get the numbers, they have left a threat dangling that they'll leave the PL and join the EFL and leave the other 14 on their own. The EFL would jump at that (especially under Parry). Worrying times.

There is no way in hell they would leave the PL to rejoin the EFL. Man United aren’t interested in games with Millwall and Reading the only way they’re leaving is for a european super league. Basically put it this way, they’re not going to voluntarily relegate themselves back into an institution they left 30 years ago. Even if they did the PL could just promote 6 teams in their place or probably 4 teams and invite rangers and Celtic

 

[WinchWolf]

There is no way in hell they would leave the PL to rejoin the EFL. Man United aren’t interested in games with Millwall and Reading the only way they’re leaving is for a european super league. Basically put it this way, they’re not going to voluntarily relegate themselves back into an institution they left 30 years ago. Even if they did the PL could just promote 6 teams in their place or probably 4 teams and invite rangers and Celtic

But the threat is still there, that they leave and take the TV money with them:

‘One Premier League source accused Parry of attempting to mount a hostile takeover of the richest league in the world by proposing an agreement to collectively sell the media rights for all four divisions, and allegedly offering the Big Six a guarantee they could be accommodated in the Championship if the other 14 clubs refused to co-operate.’

'Theft of hope': What the papers are saying about Project Big Picture - Planet Football

 

[JayStringer]

There's a lot to like in there. The proposals would do a lot of good for the overall football pyramid. But there's no disguising that it's also a power grab by the big six, and would effectively put them in control of all English football. It would be a pretty bitter pill to swallow. Though to play devils advocate, the teams who would really miss out here would be the ones who have become content to sit in the bottom half of the premier league doing just enough to survive without ever trying to progress. Teams further down the pyramid would benefit, and teams above them would benefit.

I think these leaks were strategic. The 'smaller' premier league clubs have a history of voting the big clubs down on key issues. This is the big clubs flexing their muscles and saying they can move to cut the legs out from the clubs that they feel keep getting in the way. Let people see the most extreme form of the proposals to kickstart a negotiation, and then get everyone to agree on a compromise.

 

[crash2772]

Its fair to say this power grab by the big six has some resemblance with the US franchise system and MLS. However, I think there’s some incorrect assumptions based on many’s lack of familiarity with that system.

This looks to me like the big six are trying to cherry pick the best elements of the US franchise system, copy what the big clubs in other European leagues get away with (tv rights in Spain, etc) and keep just enough of the traditions to keep (some) fans happy. In the end they’ll actually have even more power, money and security.

US franchise elements they want:

1. Minimized relegation - With the financial restrictions they put in place, promoted teams will be one and done. Just fodder for the big teams. If you think a club could get taken over and flush with cash to compete (like us), they’ll block it unless there is something in it for them (in the US they share an expansion fee - last NFL fee was $700 billion!).

2. Control of lower league teams - They’ve killed lower leagues chances to rise up to the Prem with this. Even worse, the cash flowing to the league one and league 2 sides will come with conditions in the future. If anyone knows baseball (and Liverpool’s owners definitely do), you will know they have huge networks of lower league teams (6-10 teams each!) that they either outright own or that they financially support. The £10 million to a league 2 side is great in 2020. I predict that number gets cut sharply within 3 years unless the club agrees to an affiliation with a big 6 side. First right of refusal on players, forced loans, etc.

The 2 things they are leaving out of the US franchise system are profit sharing and salary caps.

1. The NFL (Man United’s owners) have to equally share EVERYTHING earned with the rest of the league. Ticket sales, tv rights even merchandise sales are equally shared. Funny they want all protection and control but NOT to share the wealth with the rest of the top flight.

2. All US leagues have their own version of a cap on both individual and team salaries. A salary cap is controversial, but in general it does benefit owners and fans (not players). It suppresses labor costs, but it also levels the playing field so as a fan, Wolves would have the same payroll as the big 6. That’s is of course if the profits are also equally shared so we could afford it.

 

[WasStefan]

I worry that they'll get the numbers, they have left a threat dangling that they'll leave the PL and join the EFL and leave the other 14 on their own. The EFL would jump at that (especially under Parry). Worrying times.

Absolutely 0 chance of the top 6 leaving the PL, don’t bite the hand that feeds you comes to mind.

There will however be a massive fall out.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

There's a lot to like in there. The proposals would do a lot of good for the overall football pyramid. But there's no disguising that it's also a power grab by the big six, and would effectively put them in control of all English football. It would be a pretty bitter pill to swallow. Though to play devils advocate, the teams who would really miss out here would be the ones who have become content to sit in the bottom half of the premier league doing just enough to survive without ever trying to progress. Teams further down the pyramid would benefit, and teams above them would benefit.

I think these leaks were strategic. The 'smaller' premier league clubs have a history of voting the big clubs down on key issues. This is the big clubs flexing their muscles and saying they can move to cut the legs out from the clubs that they feel keep getting in the way. Let people see the most extreme form of the proposals to kickstart a negotiation, and then get everyone to agree on a compromise.

You may be right that this is an opening position and the instigators will back off certain provisions in order to achieve a compromise. At its heart however is power, and that is an area they are likely to wish to secure in order to agree to reallocating some tv money for the EFL. Whether it’s two thirds of 9 or some other formula, they will want to secure some long term control / advantage for the big six. Whats not written, is the aims of the top clubs through such power, beyond the changes documented. Things like giving them the power to create a Super League, negotiate changes to the uefa ffp on behalf of English clubs, etc. Once secured, that power will remain forever within the clutches of the elite, and they will use it to serve their interests.

Even without the proposed voting rights, the instigation of changes to tv rights within the PL, reduced league size, and uefa style ffp, will collectively advantage the bigger clubs, accelerating the trend we have seen since the PL was created. The EFL would be mad to agree to the enhanced share of PL rights in exchange for giving control over their rights to the PL through combination, which is also what’s proposed. By the time that’s worked through the next round of rights sales, I’d wager the EFL clubs would have little more than they have today.

The aims in these proposals are not altruistic. They’ve been working on it for 3 years according to the Athletic. Long before covid and recent EFL club failures. From before Liverpool won the CL or PL. You only have to see who is leading this, and from what position, to understand the true intent.