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Project Big Picture

wolvesjoe

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I do wonder though if they were trying the classic Govt trick. Leak something palpably extreme and unacceptable and then come back with "moderate" proposals that still get you most, if not all, of what you want....

Could well be true. I think that's one of the reasons why Fosun need to take a lead here and fully condemn the ideas behind these proposals.

Taking a lead on bailing out the EFL clubs is also key to outflanking Parry and Henry's philanthropic BS
 

wolvesjoe

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An interesting test of opinion and reaction will be how Neville and Carragher respond. This is also an attack on Sky in an indirect way. Dual loyalties and principles all to be tested.
 

Frank Lincoln

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This is completely wrong and not why you get into football. As having seen the despairs of the 1990's how can you wish that on other clubs which is what would happen with this new proposal.

Despairs of the 1990's? Surely you mean the mid eighties?
 

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I do wonder though if they were trying the classic Govt trick. Leak something palpably extreme and unacceptable and then come back with "moderate" proposals that still get you most, if not all, of what you want....
This.
 

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An interesting test of opinion and reaction will be how Neville and Carragher respond. This is also an attack on Sky in an indirect way. Dual loyalties and principles all to be tested.

Particularly as Neville is co-owner of Salford who will benefit from the proposal
 

wolvesjoe

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Moxey now works for Burton Albion where survival, a few seasons in the Chump is the height of the club's ambition.... You wouldn't bet against him being involved in formulating this crap!
Hes such a scumbag, I could imagine he also likes how it would effectively destroy Wolves' chances of breaking into the top group. Revenge for not appreciating his genius.
 

Supadavewolf

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An interesting test of opinion and reaction will be how Neville and Carragher respond. This is also an attack on Sky in an indirect way. Dual loyalties and principles all to be tested.
Regarding Salford, Neville could well see it as a silver lining, whereas Carragher probably sees it as a saliva lining...
 

wolvesjoe

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A crucial moment has arrived for Wolves and many other ambitious and historical clubs. There is both tremendous anger towards the artless, brazen, base and ****roachesque power grab by the Premier League's "big 6", and tremendous clarity as to how and why this squalid manoeuvre is to be carried out. Helped by some excellent and forthright journalism by Martin Samuel at the Mail, and Jason Burt at the Telegraph, it seems that fans are highly aware that the measures contained in Parry's proposals would entrench monopoly power in such a way as to effectively remove the competitive principle at the top end of the game.


Its revealing that these extreme proposals have been in the works since 2017, when the implications of Leicester's winning of the league were being absorbed by the richest clubs. The writing was on the wall, when Leicester showed that the existing distribution of broadcasting funds, allied to astute management, high level training processes and a loyal, local and committed fanbase could beat the arrogant elite with their super stadia, easily discontent tourist fans, and primadonna mercenaries as players, who could be guaranteed to go missing when most needed. Any competent analyst could see that the Leicester syndrome would be repeated again and again. It just so happens that our club was the next one up on the conveyor belt to take advantage of the relatively meritocratic financial structure of the broadcasting deal and set up a top level professional setup on the basis of that. But again any competent analyst would also be able to see that the unique heritage of English football and society supplied several other potential contenders, such as Leeds, Villa, Newcastle, Everton, Forest and so on. Covid and the ongoing train wreck at Man Utd have acted as the fulcrum to push these extreme counter-measures to the fore, before the character of the top 6 changes too drastically, with Arsenal acting as the elite's canary in the mineshaft.

But Wolves under Fosun's intelligent leadership are one of the main targets of this grubby plot, (as Samuel makes clear in his initial response: MARTIN SAMUEL: Project Big Picture' is a disgusting Big Six power grab)

This gives Fosun extra authority to put themselves in the forefront of opposing the monopolists, always a popular thing to do, and present themselves quite rightly as the defenders of the competitive principle, which lies at the heart of all sports, not just football. Fosun can expose how Liverpool and Utd's proposals are nothing less than an extreme form of financial doping, just one carried out in reverse as clubs will be financially impeded to prevent any challenge being mounted to the currently richest. This will not only allow Fosun to lead the opposition and protect the fundamental competitive principle, but also to deepen the righteous anger towards the pirate monopolists, which already healthily foments. This is not a side point: the deep unpopularity of the richest and their continued attempts to rig the game are an integral part of the toxicity that undermines these clubs already, and contributes to their instability. This current debate offers a chance to amplify that anger hugely.

What does this entail?

1. A clear explanation of how the measures would work to permanently entrench monopoly power, particularly on undermining the current broadcasting deal. But all the grubby little tactics need spelling out.

2. Putting forward a motion of severe censure against Liverpool and Utd and the other clubs, who have known of this plot and have kept silent.

3. Calling for Parry's immediate resignation as having secretly enabled manoeuvres to undermine the essence of the game, and act against the longterm interests of many of the clubs he is meant to represent.


4. Perhaps most importantly of all, put forward a series of counter-proposals to enable the bailing out of the EFL clubs who have been damaged by the loss of income associated with Covid. Make it clear that Parry’s proposals are principally just cynical cover for the elite power grab, and that there is no necessary connection between a Premier League bailout and damaging changes to the longterm structure of the game.



5. Call for a proper independent inquiry on the future financing of the game outside of the Premier league, with the aim of protecting the competitive principle of the game, not destroying it as in Parry’s extortion racket. One based on a redistribution upwards, as in every effective form of equality mechanism, not downwards where more end up with less. (This will also involve looking at the parachute payments in an all-rounded way, rather than Parry’s blatant attempt to weaken the lower half of the Premier league by abolishing them).



It’s a golden opportunity, so let’s hope that Fosun seize the moment.
Its also up to the media to play their role in demolishing this move. Ask Klopp, Mourinho, Guardiola what they think of making a permanently uneven playing field. It can very quickly be marginalised when powerful voices speak out.
 

wwbug

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Football is a religion.
And the Government must understand that you cant use normal open market business principles on the new opium of the masses.
They must get involved with this matter . People like Moxey and Parry are trying to monetise peoples loyalty.
Its about the identity of large parts of society.
 

maws

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Lol a European Super League would sell out every game regardless of fans travelling to follow their club. And the powers that be know that. Football is slowly being taken away from the fans.
It would for the first few years, but then? Italian crowds are never particularly great, the championship is the 5th best attended league. The tv companies don’t want to show half full grounds. If it was that guaranteed to sell out every game they’d have done it by now. No question as money talks
 

Oliwolf44

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As much as I dont like them there is a powerful voice that is very important in the future of this proposal. Liverpool supporters. A club built on the morals of socialism is now trying to become an authoritarian and run football in perpetuity. Looking at their supporter groups social media (Spirit of Shankly) they oppose this measures taken by the club. Thinking of how biased football fans are in general, when the proposal benefits your club so massively and your supporters are still against it, it could be a bad idea.
It is essentially the destruction of competition. I find it strange that the project big picture nobody is looking at the big picture and the long term end of english football.
We wont have to worry about Coady playing in a back 5 for england if all the talent is pooled in the big 6. Which is exactly what will happen. All other issues are so insignificant to what is selling the game for a quick pound note to predatory accountants in New York.
 

Archiwolf

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Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes

Beware the (Greeks) big six bearing gifts.

Opportunistic ####'s!!!

You don't need to concede power to the big 6 to do the right thing. The club's could all agree to do that anyway. The fact that you have Sean Dyche at a club like Burnley saying that no other industry is asking it's big businesses for a bail out in the way that football is being asked to, tells you that unfortunately.... they probably won't.

A few crowd pleasers in there like the potential of a £20 away ticket and a bigger allocation at the big clubs, but ultimately that's just going to be a pat on the head for turning up to watch the procession. The novelty will soon wear off.

At best, this starts a discussion that leads to some of the current issues being resolved. At worst (and definitely at the root of its inception) it's a ladder being pulled even higher.
 

wolvesjoe

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As much as I dont like them there is a powerful voice that is very important in the future of this proposal. Liverpool supporters. A club built on the morals of socialism is now trying to become an authoritarian and run football in perpetuity. Looking at their supporter groups social media (Spirit of Shankly) they oppose this measures taken by the club. Thinking of how biased football fans are in general, when the proposal benefits your club so massively and your supporters are still against it, it could be a bad idea.
It is essentially the destruction of competition. I find it strange that the project big picture nobody is looking at the big picture and the long term end of english football.
We wont have to worry about Coady playing in a back 5 for england if all the talent is pooled in the big 6. Which is exactly what will happen. All other issues are so insignificant to what is selling the game for a quick pound note to predatory accountants in New York.
Some interesting points there.

If the financial gap is permanently deepened, its not that the other clubs apart from the top 6, still cannot recruit good players. After all, a club can only handle so many good players in a squad, without unrest and disgruntlement. Its rather that the gap in wages becomes so great, that no club such as Wolves would be able to hang onto their best players to have a shot at top 6/4 status. We have that already to a limited degree, of course, but the wages that clubs like Wolves offer is still sufficiently high, to give some level of squad stability, as this summer's transfer market showed.

The other anti-competitive measure that the top 6 pushed for was directly related to this. Allow for 5 subs per game, which both allows for bigger engaged squads, and gives a live game possibility to bring on better players to win or protect winning positions.

Interestingly Nuno and Fosun both successfully opposed such a move.
 

Oliwolf44

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Some interesting points there.

If the financial gap is permanently deepened, its not that the other clubs apart from the top 6, still cannot recruit good players. After all, a club can only handle so many good players in a squad, without unrest and disgruntlement. Its rather that the gap in wages becomes so great, that no club such as Wolves would be able to hang onto their best players to have a shot at top 6/4 status. We have that already to a limited degree, of course, but the wages that clubs like Wolves offer is still sufficiently high, to give some level of squad stability, as this summer's transfer market showed.

The other anti-competitive measure that the top 6 pushed for was directly related to this. Allow for 5 subs per game, which both allows for bigger engaged squads, and gives a live game possibility to bring on better players to win or protect winning positions.

Interestingly Nuno and Fosun both successfully opposed such a move.
Agree. Its all protectionist and consolidation of power. The loan changes means that they can loan 15 players! Stockpiling players and is essentially B teams in everything but names.
 

wolvesjoe

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Agree. Its all protectionist and consolidation of power. The loan changes means that they can loan 15 players! Stockpiling players and is essentially B teams in everything but names.
Good call, I had forgotten about the loan changes! Its like two nerds in a bar working out every possible angle to make it easier for them.

In some ways, it is closer to the Spanish and Portuguese models, where there is effectively a permanent top group, with B teams in the Championship/second tier, but no formal abolition of relegation and promotion.
 

quirky_birky

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I wonder what UEFA think to these proposals, which potentially give the English 'big six' even greater commercial advantage over most of the rest of their European counterparts.
 

Munich_Wolf

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I do wonder though if they were trying the classic Govt trick. Leak something palpably extreme and unacceptable and then come back with "moderate" proposals that still get you most, if not all, of what you want....


Exactly my fear, float something so despicable that when it comes back slightly diluted it gets pushed through
 

Very Proud (AKA Still Proud)

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So Parry says there's no other alternative on the table well here goes:

  1. All Television money is pooled across all 4 divisions, and distributed 70% to top division then 20%, 10%, 5% respectively
  2. In the top 2 divisions all clubs are guaranteed an equal number of TV games. The revenue in each division is spread equally.
  3. A salary cap is introduced in each division that is affordable but not directly linked to each team's income.
  4. The transfer window closes earlier for each team in terms of their placement the previous season e.g. League Champions 20 days early then 19,18,17,16 etc.
  5. Over a 5 year period transfer purchase values to equate to transfer sales.
  6. £20 per game is enough
  7. Parry to resign
  8. Have one league with 4 divisions - one team one vote
  9. Villa are relegated.
 

WickedWolfie

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So Parry says there's no other alternative on the table well here goes:

  1. All Television money is pooled across all 4 divisions, and distributed 70% to top division then 20%, 10%, 5% respectively
  2. In the top 2 divisions all clubs are guaranteed an equal number of TV games. The revenue in each division is spread equally.
  3. A salary cap is introduced in each division that is affordable but not directly linked to each team's income.
  4. The transfer window closes earlier for each team in terms of their placement the previous season e.g. League Champions 20 days early then 19,18,17,16 etc.
  5. Over a 5 year period transfer purchase values to equate to transfer sales.
  6. £20 per game is enough
  7. Parry to resign
  8. Have one league with 4 divisions - one team one vote
  9. Villa are relegated.
Might not be too bad for a closed sport like American football. Disastrous for a global support like football. All that would happen is that all the big names would go abroad. Your chances of getting similar rules worldwide? Zilch.
 

wwbug

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Good call, I had forgotten about the loan changes! Its like two nerds in a bar working out every possible angle to make it easier for them.

In some ways, it is closer to the Spanish and Portuguese models, where there is effectively a permanent top group, with B teams in the Championship/second tier, but no formal abolition of relegation and promotion.
And who wants to watch that lot ?

The Premier League is really the world of competitive football. But that would change.
 

Wolves Heathen

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Its blatantly obvious whats happening here, Give a financial sweetner to the EFL which in these Covid uncertain times is desperately needed, they then reduce the PL to 18 Teams, then have the Sky 6 supported by the additional Super 3 which gives them 9 votes, the other 9 Teams may as well not be their as these Super Teams can apparently veto anything that they dont like, the good things in this project are far outweighed by these 9 Teams basically controlling English football for there own greedy owners.. If this gets passed would it be refered to the Competitions and Markets authority ? as this could be seen as nothing less than a foreign Cartel that would be running OUR football..
 

Wednesbury Wolf

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I notice we aren't one of the clubs saying no in the newspaper poll this morning we are saying - no comment so maybe we're mulling the options.
 

Lawley Wolf

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Ian Holloway said in Talksport this morning that it stinks of skull duggeray and corruption and if it goes through its the death of Football
I liked that he called out Simon Jordan for not flat out objecting to the plans.
 

Sedgley Gold N Black

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It’s a golden opportunity, so let’s hope that Fosun seize the moment.
If Fosun/China got involved in football for the soft power aspect, this is as good a chance they will get at cementing that by coming up with a far more workable alternative.

I'd like to think that image is one Fosun would want to project around the world.
 

Lawley Wolf

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So Parry says there's no other alternative on the table well here goes:

  1. All Television money is pooled across all 4 divisions, and distributed 70% to top division then 20%, 10%, 5% respectively
  2. In the top 2 divisions all clubs are guaranteed an equal number of TV games. The revenue in each division is spread equally.
  3. A salary cap is introduced in each division that is affordable but not directly linked to each team's income.
  4. The transfer window closes earlier for each team in terms of their placement the previous season e.g. League Champions 20 days early then 19,18,17,16 etc.
  5. Over a 5 year period transfer purchase values to equate to transfer sales.
  6. £20 per game is enough
  7. Parry to resign
  8. Have one league with 4 divisions - one team one vote
  9. Villa are relegated.
some of these would be great but youve got 105% and the 14 majority would never agree to it. (6 + villa haha). too much lost revenue.

I really like the idea that all of England 4 divisions sold as a tv package together. seems like a great long term solution.
 

Sedgley Gold N Black

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As much as I dont like them there is a powerful voice that is very important in the future of this proposal. Liverpool supporters. A club built on the morals of socialism is now trying to become an authoritarian and run football in perpetuity. Looking at their supporter groups social media (Spirit of Shankly) they oppose this measures taken by the club. Thinking of how biased football fans are in general, when the proposal benefits your club so massively and your supporters are still against it, it could be a bad idea.
It is essentially the destruction of competition. I find it strange that the project big picture nobody is looking at the big picture and the long term end of english football.
We wont have to worry about Coady playing in a back 5 for england if all the talent is pooled in the big 6. Which is exactly what will happen. All other issues are so insignificant to what is selling the game for a quick pound note to predatory accountants in New York.
Hopefully it's this liverpool supporter they ask.

 

Bill S Preston Esq.

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Apparently it’s not getting rid of the league cup completely, just removing the teams in Europe from having to play in it. So effectively the big 6 removing themselves from it. I guess you could make an argument we’d have more chance of winning a trophy but that trophy is pretty devalued and the reward is a place in the weakest of european competitions
It's still a trophy. It's still Europe. I'd be fine with this change.
 

Big Nosed Wolf

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Perhaps we just might have reached the 'tipping point' to use a current term.

From 2000ish to Fosun I was gradually -and I thought irrevocably - losing interest in English football. Wolves were going nowhere other than paying more at the till for second rate management and ambition. Not that I didn't still watch and support one way or another. One cannot wean oneself of addiction that easily. Our CEO at the time epitomised much that was now strangling any idea that Wolves were still the Wolves that remained the City's greatest ever creation. That the football played at Molineux was in so many ways reminiscent of of the City itself. The old Motto 'Out of Darkness Cometh Light' could have been made as a motto for Wolves first rather than the City's.

Under Moxey money was the first and last consideration. Leaving little room for the romance and the real value of football and Wolves. Ironically appointed by perhaps the biggest Romantic ever to have owned an English football club.

What was worse we now had the PL. 'The Greatest League In The World' born of a game that badly needed facilities and competition upgraded but shafted by the 'few' who with cynical opportunism hijacked the game. Ably assisted by government legislation that sought to control the unwashed, all of us being lumped in to with the tiny minority that had used the terraces for something other than football tribalism or sporting rivalry. The petty and pathetic squabbling of the governing bodies being put before the game they purport to represent.

When Fosun came I really thought that would be it for me. Soft Power and owners who knew nothing about Wolves and what they stood for in the wider sense. I have been pleasantly surprised since. They have gone about building the club which in a way is more what the club is about than under the previous regime. We have a CEO who is measured and understated in his approach and who genuinely seems to 'get it'. As do the playing staff . I didn't expect, or want, Cullis part two. Everything moves on and nobody to date could criticise how Fosun have handled their first four years or so.

So as Wolvesjoe suggests. What will be their response? If any. What should they or others do? I hope they might take a lead here and show they really do 'get it' One club cannot do it all but if any owner has the 'clout' then surely its Fosun and our current impressive CEO.

If anyone was ever in any doubt about why the PL is with us then this surely dispels those doubts. The PL has been, and remains, the league for the 'few' to have their corrosive way. That 'success' means how many shirts/bottles of beer/betting sites they can sell. That in turn meaning they can buy their way to some kind of 'elitist' level where they can bask in the glory of 'global' acclaim while the riff raff stand in awe with their noses pressed against the paywall glass. In short a corrupt version of footballing achievement.

I doubt this latest grab will succeed but the issues that are behind it won't go away. The good measures in their 'proposal' should be a given anyway. Not used as a sweetener for elitist power. Should it though it would be the end for football in England as a real game for 'the people'. It already has moved considerably away from that notion anyway.

Should any of it in its present guise gain momentum it will mean the end for many, me included, as good as Fosun have been in owning Wolves in the 'modern' era. If they make some kind of stand it would only serve to impress this poster even more. Still a club I could recognise.
 

JayStringer

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Ultimately for this to pass a vote the top six need some of the ‘other 14’ to support it. The proposals already incentivise Everton, West Ham, and Southampton to back it. I think (just opinion) Wolves would end up being a key power in which way a vote would go, and would/will be courted heavily by the people pushing this. Fosun see the clubs long term future as part of the big club, not part of the bottom half survival club. There are elements in the package at the moment that don’t suit Wolves. The stricter FFP, the vote distribution. If those two elements are negotiated into something that does suit them, I have the feeling Wolves would move to support the changes. While those elements remain in place they won’t.
 

wolvesjoe

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Ultimately for this to pass a vote the top six need some of the ‘other 14’ to support it. The proposals already incentivise Everton, West Ham, and Southampton to back it. I think (just opinion) Wolves would end up being a key power in which way a vote would go, and would/will be courted heavily by the people pushing this. Fosun see the clubs long term future as part of the big club, not part of the bottom half survival club. There are elements in the package at the moment that don’t suit Wolves. The stricter FFP, the vote distribution. If those two elements are negotiated into something that does suit them, I have the feeling Wolves would move to support the changes. While those elements remain in place they won’t.
Its the undermining of the current broadcasting funds that is the most important target. The relatively even distribution which currently prevails, working out as around 1:1.7 between the bottom club and the league winner, would be radically reset at 1:4. With allowance also made for pay per view arrangements, allowing the most internationally followed clubs to further the income gap, this is the economic basis for much more watertight monopoly power.

I predict Wolves will definitely not back this power grab in any shape or form as they will be only too aware that Wolves are one of the main targets of these moves.
 
1

1965Wolf

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Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes

Beware the (Greeks) big six bearing gifts.

Opportunistic ####'s!!!

You don't need to concede power to the big 6 to do the right thing. The club's could all agree to do that anyway. The fact that you have Sean Dyche at a club like Burnley saying that no other industry is asking it's big businesses for a bail out in the way that football is being asked to, tells you that unfortunately.... they probably won't.

A few crowd pleasers in there like the potential of a £20 away ticket and a bigger allocation at the big clubs, but ultimately that's just going to be a pat on the head for turning up to watch the procession. The novelty will soon wear off.

At best, this starts a discussion that leads to some of the current issues being resolved. At worst (and definitely at the root of its inception) it's a ladder being pulled even higher.
Agreed. Good post especially the Latin opening. Could I just suggest a slight change to the translation- even when bearing gifts
 

Wall heath Wanderer

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why any pl club would back this knowing that they could be in a Newcastle type merry go round should they look to sell i do not know.


Also i sae something about efl wage cap, so that makes it even easier for the big boys to cherry pick and young talent they may find rising through a lower league team.


Odd how with man utd looking to/needing to do some work on sprucing up old Trafford there is a bit about money back on stadium projects, just so long as you meet the criteria that they conveniently fit into.


There is one way all clubs in the pl not in the cartel could make a point, though they won't, and that is that whenever they play one of those big 6 they all have an agreement that they forfeit the game, let it be kicked off then the players can sit down, exercise, whatever, just leave the opposition to it.
 

Very Proud (AKA Still Proud)

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Just a thought,or a conspiracy theory if you like, but what do we think the PMGOL are thinking right now? If we think that they won't have discussed it we're kidding ourselves. They'll want to make sure that they come out on the right side of this deal with their slice of the pie enhanced. Even subconsciously they'll be favouring the power brokers even more in the coming games.
 

hollo

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why any pl club would back this knowing that they could be in a Newcastle type merry go round should they look to sell i do not know.


Also i sae something about efl wage cap, so that makes it even easier for the big boys to cherry pick and young talent they may find rising through a lower league team.


Odd how with man utd looking to/needing to do some work on sprucing up old Trafford there is a bit about money back on stadium projects, just so long as you meet the criteria that they conveniently fit into.


There is one way all clubs in the pl not in the cartel could make a point, though they won't, and that is that whenever they play one of those big 6 they all have an agreement that they forfeit the game, let it be kicked off then the players can sit down, exercise, whatever, just leave the opposition to it.
Whoever gets relegated from the premier league under these proposals wouldn't have any parachute payment monies and wouldn't be able to keep any of their best players as the championship wage restrictions would greatly reduce that player's wages and the player would do everything to get a premier league club.

It would be funny if one of the top six got relegated in the first year of this project when four teams get relegated.

We don't benefit by these proposals and therefore we need to fight them. Give us a seat at the table and voting rights and 25% rebate on a stadium rebuild and we will consider the measures. But we want even more than this to make it good value to wolves. I don't want a situation where Man utd etc can extend the financial gap.
 

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I don't usually get emotional but this makes me want to cry, just as the entertainment value of football is getting to an all time high with just how wild the matches have been lately we can't watch it in the stadiums and now these parasites are going in for a cheap power grab at the sport's weakest moment. Things could have been so different.
 

Wall heath Wanderer

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Whoever gets relegated from the premier league under these proposals wouldn't have any parachute payment monies and wouldn't be able to keep any of their best players as the championship wage restrictions would greatly reduce that player's wages and the player would do everything to get a premier league club.

It would be funny if one of the top six got relegated in the first year of this project when four teams get relegated.

We don't benefit by these proposals and therefore we need to fight them. Give us a seat at the table and voting rights and 25% rebate on a stadium rebuild and we will consider the measures. But we want even more than this to make it good value to wolves. I don't want a situation where Man utd etc can extend the financial gap.
If such a thing were to be done i think the league would be suspended, which would be the goal, and a much equal proposal implemented to get it restarted.
It would also have the affect of sky and bt showing broadcasting these games and so viewers would switch off and not tube in for future games, international interest and purchasing of TV rights would be significantly lowered. It would show the big 6, and sky/bt, that it takes more than just those in the would be cartel to make football what it is and what it should be.
 
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