Other ways of playing.

[WolfLing]

I think any Premier League team nowadays needs to be fluid in their approach. But a team also has to have an identity and a default way of playing, that is tweaked from game to game.

For any team, there are games where dominating the ball will be required, but also games where having less of the ball and counter-attacking will come into play.

Bruno seems to want to dominate the ball, based on our average possession being so much higher this season compared to others.

Look at Man United as another example. Ten Hag clearly wants his team to dominate possession too.

They lost their first 2 games against Brighton and Brentford, despite having more than 60% of the ball. Since the Brentford game, they have switched to a counter-attacking side, having less of the ball than all but Southampton since, winning all their games. They had less than 30% of the ball against Liverpool and less than 40% against Arsenal along the way.

But Ten Hag appears to have now binned his approach. You could look at Ten Hag switching to become counter-attacking as a positive or a negative. Positive in the way it has got results against good sides. But negative in that it could be short-term gain, for longer-term pain, as they are never going to get the hang of playing as he wants to if they don't play that way!

I think Bruno is taking the opposite approach. Some call it stubbornness, but it's a short-term pain for long-term gain approach. Stick to your guns, try and continue playing the way you want and your team will hopefully come out the other side a better unit.

There will be games where a different approach is called for, namely our next 2 against Liverpool and City. But ripping it up and starting again as almost an exclusive counter-attacking side isn't going to help. It just makes the process of moving to a possession based side harder to do further down the line.

Other teams have also gone through this. Brighton are a good example. They dominated possession for ages but couldn't score for toffee. They stuck to their guns and came out the other side as a better side.

I think this is why Bruno always says stuff like, "trust the process". The club will know this is a season of transition and expectations are probably a lot lower within the club than within the fanbase.

 

[Snarlingwolf]

For me, it boils down to the lowest common denominator - the ability to strike a ball properly, with either foot, and how to head a ball properly with power and/or accuracy.

Look at how many players we have that have a “weaker foot” or a “stronger foot”.

These are professional footballers, most are international players, ffs.

I have lost count of the good positions we’ve got into but, because the individual player has suddenly realised the ball is on his “weaker foot”, has had to check back and either play it backwards or take an extra touch which results in the chance/ advantage being lost.

If I was the coach, I’d concentrate solely on this issue until ALL the players were able to kick or shoot with either foot with power and accuracy. (Once this was achieved, I would then concentrate on the tactical side, etc..)

That way, next time when they find themselves in a really good position, the end result should be better, I.e., they can get a good shot, cross, or pass in.

I feel so strongly about this, why don’t coaches concentrate on these simple basics more?

I know if I was a professional footballer and found that I had got a “weaker foot” I would be thoroughly ashamed / embarrassed.

After Matheus’ terrible headed miss the other match, there’s obviously a need for much more coaching in how to head the ball properly, too!

Or are the players so full of their own ego, that they think it may be beneath them?

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

For me, it boils down to the lowest common denominator - the ability to strike a ball properly, with either foot, and how to head a ball properly with power and/or accuracy.

Look at how many players we have that have a “weaker foot” or a “stronger foot”.

These are professional footballers, most are international players, ffs.

I have lost count of the good positions we’ve got into but, because the individual player has suddenly realised the ball is on his “weaker foot”, has had to check back and either play it backwards or take an extra touch which results in the chance/ advantage being lost.

If I was the coach, I’d concentrate solely on this issue until ALL the players were able to kick or shoot with either foot with power and accuracy. (Once this was achieved, I would then concentrate on the tactical side, etc..)

That way, next time when they find themselves in a really good position, the end result should be better, I.e., they can get a good shot, cross, or pass in.

I feel so strongly about this, why don’t coaches concentrate on these simple basics more?

I know if I was a professional footballer and found that I had got a “weaker foot” I would be thoroughly ashamed / embarrassed.

After Matheus’ terrible headed miss the other match, there’s obviously a need for much more coaching in how to head the ball properly, too!

Or are the players so full of their own ego, that they think it may be below themselves?

How many genuine two footed players are there in world football or indeed ever. It’s sounds great in theory but it’s not an easy thing to coach or there would be more of them.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

We need to up the tempo, play with more rhythm, more swagger.

And hopefully this will come now we have our first win and settled squad.

 

[Tojo the grass]

And hopefully this will come now we have our first win and settled squad.

I think so, we have the players to do it I think, it is a case of them gaining confidence and developing understanding with each other.

 

[DasWolf]

If we attack at pace, we do far better.

Nuno's philosophy was retain possession and take minimal risks. This worked extremely well in the Championship because of top players. If you don't go for the riskier option, another option will be along in a minute. When you have players like Neves (and Coady, in the Champ), you can create a lot of opportunities.

In the PL, tapping it about does almost nothing. Defenders retain shape far better. First game back in the PL against Everton, and they were laughing as it got tapped about and they just shuffled their shape 10 yards across the pitch, back and forth.

Nuno's best success in the PL wasn't due to tapping it about, but explosive counter attacking, where a lot of our goals and threat came from. The tapping around generated effectively nothing, as evidenced by us being unable to break down teams sitting back, which didn't leave much on the counter to exploit.

Bruno's philosophy isn't much different it seems. Our best efforts on Sat came about through rapidly attacking.


Short version: fine every player a week's wages if they tap it about.

If they tap it back from a corner, fine them 2 week's wages.

If they tap it back from the final third, fine them 2 week's wages.


Got to drill the negative "retain the ball at all costs" approach out of them. Attack at speed, put balls into the box, and also attack the ball when it goes in. There's too much static movement, a lack of runs either for players to run onto the ball (or the passes aren't made if they do), and a lack of attacking the ball as it goes into the box.

So much of this is pretty basic stuff.

What I don't understand is why Nuno and Bruno look at the game, see we do much better when we do things quickly, and say "more tapping it about!".

 

[Ned]

How many genuine two footed players are there in world football or indeed ever. It’s sounds great in theory but it’s not an easy thing to coach or there would be more of them.

Top of my head? De Bruyne. Can’t think of many more.

Even Messi is one footed to a degree.

 

[DanishWolf]

We dont really have any aerial presence, so there really is need for us to play with classical wingers. For the first games, Neto and Guedes or whoever has played, has often been too wide, leaving the central striker too isolated.
What I'd like us to do, is not too dissimilar from what Lage did at Benfica. Wide players tucking in to the point of being attacking midfielders. To players up front, interchanging a lot. Create overload in the centre, with only the wingback providing with.
We've the players for fast interplay in and around the area. Players like Hwang and Guedes needs to be very close to whoever plays as a central striker. Neto is a bit of a different type of player, but we cant have him, drifting out wide, putting in crosses, when we rarely win any aerial battles.
But overload in the middle, som fastpaced, risky passing close to the area, and we'd be in with a chance.

 

[wwbug]

Agreed. The horseshoe of doom needs to go. Once we get it down one wing try harder to work it into the box from there rather than taking the safe option and passing the ball painfully slowly via the centre circle to the other wing, repeat ad nauseam...

The horseshoe of doom . Not heard that but nails our style of play for last 4 years.

 

[clivewolves]

If Kilman wasn't so bloody good at centre-back I reckon he would make a good option as a target man up front.

 

[WolfLing]

If we attack at pace, we do far better.

Nuno's philosophy was retain possession and take minimal risks. This worked extremely well in the Championship because of top players. If you don't go for the riskier option, another option will be along in a minute. When you have players like Neves (and Coady, in the Champ), you can create a lot of opportunities.

In the PL, tapping it about does almost nothing. Defenders retain shape far better. First game back in the PL against Everton, and they were laughing as it got tapped about and they just shuffled their shape 10 yards across the pitch, back and forth.

Nuno's best success in the PL wasn't due to tapping it about, but explosive counter attacking, where a lot of our goals and threat came from. The tapping around generated effectively nothing, as evidenced by us being unable to break down teams sitting back, which didn't leave much on the counter to exploit.

Bruno's philosophy isn't much different it seems. Our best efforts on Sat came about through rapidly attacking.


Short version: fine every player a week's wages if they tap it about.

If they tap it back from a corner, fine them 2 week's wages.

If they tap it back from the final third, fine them 2 week's wages.


Got to drill the negative "retain the ball at all costs" approach out of them. Attack at speed, put balls into the box, and also attack the ball when it goes in. There's too much static movement, a lack of runs either for players to run onto the ball (or the passes aren't made if they do), and a lack of attacking the ball as it goes into the box.

So much of this is pretty basic stuff.

What I don't understand is why Nuno and Bruno look at the game, see we do much better when we do things quickly, and say "more tapping it about!".

The flip side to this point of view is that counter-attacking football can only take you so far, as we found. It's fast-paced and very exciting to watch.

But the demands it puts on players is very high. Chasing the ball a lot when not in possession, explosive movements when in possession. It's not really a sustainable way of playing over a longer-period. Leicester won the league playing counter-attacking football, then decided the only way to consistently be up where they wanted was to become more possession-based.

How many of the top teams in the World are predominantly counter-attacking now? Probably Ferguson's United of the late 2000s is the last I can think of.

'Tapping it around', when done right, does create space and does create chances, for a lot less effort than when you don't have the ball. You only have to look at how other teams 'tap it around' to see that.

A lot of our players are still getting to grips with the new system and a new way of playing football and creating chances. As Bruno says, it's a process!!

I'm a fan of counter-attacking football by the way. I admire the technicalities of the tika-taka stuff, but it's not for me. I'd much rather see end-to-end, classic British-style football, as I think it's far more exciting than a team dominating the ball. But I do understand why a lot of managers now shy away from that in today's game.

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

The flip side to this point of view is that counter-attacking football can only take you so far, as we found. It's fast-paced and very exciting to watch.

But the demands it puts on players is very high. Chasing the ball a lot when not in possession, explosive movements when in possession. It's not really a sustainable way of playing over a longer-period. Leicester won the league playing counter-attacking football, then decided the only way to consistently be up where they wanted was to become more possession-based.

How many of the top teams in the World are predominantly counter-attacking now? Probably Ferguson's United of the late 2000s is the last I can think of.

'Tapping it around', when done right, does create space and does create chances, for a lot less effort than when you don't have the ball. You only have to look at how other teams 'tap it around' to see that.

A lot of our players are still getting to grips with the new system and a new way of playing football and creating chances. As Bruno says, it's a process!!

I'm a fan of counter-attacking football by the way. I admire the technicalities of the tika-taka stuff, but it's not for me. I'd much rather see end-to-end, classic British-style football, as I think it's far more exciting than a team dominating the ball. But I do understand why a lot of managers now shy away from that in today's game.

For me it isn't about possession vs counter attacking or anything like that. I will get behind many ways of playing football. I want to see a relatively successful implementation of whatever we do. I'm not seeing anything close to that.
I see dominance of the ball through cautious passing alone, which leads to more possession in our own half, and less in the oppositions penalty area.

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

I think a counter attacking 4-5-1 would suit us more

Sa
Semedo Collins Kilman Jonny
A.Traore B.Traore Neves Nunes Podence
Guedes

 

[WolfLing]

For me it isn't about possession vs counter attacking or anything like that. I will get behind many ways of playing football. I want to see a relatively successful implementation of whatever we do. I'm not seeing anything close to that.
I see dominance of the ball through cautious passing alone, which leads to more possession in our own half, and less in the oppositions penalty area.

Yes, I agree, it's not good to watch. Too slow, too safe, etc.

But Rome wasn't built in a day. We aren't going to go from Nuno's 5 at the back, 30% possession, high-paced, counter-attacking, to Man City overnight.

It's all a work in progress. And to me it is getting better, albeit slowly!

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

Yes, I agree, it's not good to watch. Too slow, too safe, etc.

But Rome wasn't built in a day. We aren't going to go from Nuno's 5 at the back, 30% possession, high-paced, counter-attacking, to Man City overnight.

It's all a work in progress. And to me it is getting better, albeit slowly!

No but after a year and a bit I'd have expected to see way more. More goals for one thing if the aim is man city!

And to me it isn't much better than the end of last season. I don't want us to get into a relegation battle because we were too busy saying Rome wasn't built in a day to realise we weren't actually ever getting better. There was some very nice posession based football at times last year, but hardly any goals. We seem to be even worse in that regard this year, despite having changed to a supposedly more attacking formation, and having more options. Options which aren't getting used.
He can't have forever before we see some signs of progress.

 

[WolfLing]

No but after a year and a bit I'd have expected to see way more. More goals for one thing if the aim is man city!

And to me it isn't much better than the end of last season. I don't want us to get into a relegation battle because we were too busy saying Rome wasn't built in a day to realise we weren't actually ever getting better. There was some very nice posession based football at times last year, but hardly any goals. We seem to be even worse in that regard this year, despite having changed to a supposedly more attacking formation, and having more options. Options which aren't getting used.
He can't have forever before we see some signs of progress.

I think using last season as a stick to beat Bruno with is harsh.

Last season, getting by with another man's squad and formation vs this season, being backed and implementing a new system.

Judge him this season by all means.

Spurs was better than Leeds and Fulham, but we still lost.

I think any of the 17 teams other than City and Liverpool could have played Bournemouth in that game and not scored. After conceding 9 the previous week, their only aim was not to concede! Poor timing for us, but we still created enough to win it and should have.

Newcastle was OK, but we couldn't close the game out.

Southampton was better and we could.

There's small signs there that it's starting to come together!

 

[wwbug]

I know our XP is poor.

I was just suggesting we are getting the ball into good areas of the pitch then wasting it.
For me the issue is quality up top. I don't think it's a question of asking too much from our forward players as previous.

Jimmy in his pomp scored 40 goals in a defensive team.
We should replace him with similar quality . Then see if we can win matches

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

I think using last season as a stick to beat Bruno with is harsh.

Last season, getting by with another man's squad and formation vs this season, being backed and implementing a new system.

Judge him this season by all means.

Spurs was better than Leeds and Fulham, but we still lost.

I think any of the 17 teams other than City and Liverpool could have played Bournemouth in that game and not scored. After conceding 9 the previous week, their only aim was not to concede! Poor timing for us, but we still created enough to win it and should have.

Newcastle was OK, but we couldn't close the game out.

Southampton was better and we could.

There's small signs there that it's starting to come together!

I don't understand why we shouldn't judge him on last season. People were happy to say what he was doing was a miracle when we were up in 7th; but when we inevitablu fade away don't judge him?
If he was afraid to make any changes, that is on him.
Bournemouth i take the opposite approach with. They were open multiple times in that game, and we were about the only team in the division who wouldn't be able to break them down.

 

[Adrian_Monk]

Can mods please remove full stop from the end of the title

 

[oldgolded]

Given the situation we are in at the moment, I would stick two up top and go 4-4-2
Jimenez and Hwang, and if one of those isn't available, put Guedes in there.
What have we got to lose?

 

[ombyman]

Gimme some 4-2-4

Nunes and Neves in midfield.

Traore and Neto wide.

Raul and An Other (Costa / Hwang) through the middle.

Time to go back to Mad Mick / Graham Taylor / Turner days.

We'd get torn apart sometimes, but it's gotta be better than the attractive but ineffective stuff we're served up currently.

I would love this. But I just dont think our players work hard enough off the ball, when we are in possession and not. Not sure if its confidence, fitness, laziness, coaching, match instructions or something the recruitment haven't prioritised. Most of the attackers dont press with intensity or move into space. Not sure why, maybe we have assembled a collection of players who don't operate in that way?

 

[ombyman]

How many genuine two footed players are there in world football or indeed ever. It’s sounds great in theory but it’s not an easy thing to coach or there would be more of them.

Yeah, if they haven't got it by now, then that ship may have sailed. Coaching to use both feet is for kids or developing players. Or maybe one or two pros where you want to try something different with them .

 

[DanishWolf]

Some decent suggestions in this thread. One thing is for sure. Lage need to deal with the hand he's been given. Guedes has played up front before. So had Hwang. Both need players around them to do it well. But its not an impossible task. Other managers have had it worse.

 

[Kcb92]

I think the most surprising thing for me is that I had some trepidation going into this season about the shift to a back 4. In recent seasons we've generally been rock solid at the back but struggled to score goals and I expected it to shift the other way this season whilst the players settled into the new system but we're still defensively sound and struggling to score goals. Not sure if it's the manager or the attacking players but it's a conundrum that needs solving.

 

[Northampton_wolf]

If Kilman wasn't so bloody good at centre-back I reckon he would make a good option as a target man up front.

He played futsal for england dont you know

 

[lobodelsur]

We dont really have any aerial presence, so there really is need for us to play with classical wingers. For the first games, Neto and Guedes or whoever has played, has often been too wide, leaving the central striker too isolated.
What I'd like us to do, is not too dissimilar from what Lage did at Benfica. Wide players tucking in to the point of being attacking midfielders. To players up front, interchanging a lot. Create overload in the centre, with only the wingback providing with.
We've the players for fast interplay in and around the area. Players like Hwang and Guedes needs to be very close to whoever plays as a central striker. Neto is a bit of a different type of player, but we cant have him, drifting out wide, putting in crosses, when we rarely win any aerial battles.
But overload in the middle, som fastpaced, risky passing close to the area, and we'd be in with a chance.

I tend to agree. We have the players to frighten any defence, but they are rarely found in threatening positions. We have quick, skilful attacking fullbacks so lets use their qualities. I'd like to see us go 4-1-4-1 with Neves holding and Podence and Nunes ahead of him. Costa will have to lead the line for the moment but get any two of Neto, Guedes or Hwang close to him and we'd be a threat.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

Now Costa's here let's try something novel - get a striker to play inside the box and tell him to stay there.

 

[Tojo the grass]

Regardless of what system we employ we would significantly improve our league position if we weren’t so **** at set pieces, does anybody even get excited when we win a free kick or a corner anymore?

 

[Oh When the Wolves]

Regardless of what system we employ we would significantly improve our league position if we weren’t so **** at set pieces, does anybody even get excited when we win a free kick or a corner anymore?

I genuinely can’t understand how Nuno and Bruno have been so bad at throw ins, corners and set pieces.

Why, do we still cross the ball from a central position when we get a free kick there? Get it out wide, work a 2 v 1 and get a cross from the side in ffs

 

[Black Country Wanderer]

I genuinely can’t understand how Nuno and Bruno have been so bad at throw ins, corners and set pieces.

Why, do we still cross the ball from a central position when we get a free kick there? Get it out wide, work a 2 v 1 and get a cross from the side in ffs

Its simple we have no movement
Watch the next throw in we take,no one creates space,every time its run to the taker and knock it back to him where he inevitably loses it
Same for set pieces,we never have anyone pulling the defenders wider, or going to the back post,actually we would probably be better having someone on the corner flag as thats where most crosses end up
Its basic football,why all stand in a queue thats easily blocked for every free kick or corner? Just move to the back of the box, they have to send someone to mark leaving more space in the center
It seems a problem all over the pitch for us,very rarely do we see any movement from our forwards,its always ball to feet try and beat a player then mostly pass it backwards
The times we actually move the ball at pace and move into space we look really good, and have actually scored a few doing this
Getting more players faster into the box helps ofc
I just dont know if its the coaching or the players,but i can make a good guess

 

[Jd132]

If I was implementing our style, I would go for 433, which is what both Pep (with tiki-taka) and Klopp (with Heavy metal football) use. Both of those teams press like animals and we now have the central midfielders to do this. Let the wing backs attack at will and get Neto and Guedes as close to the centre forward as possible, swapping regularly and making things happen.

IMO Moutinho is the metronomic culprit of all the boring, sideways rubbish, only willing to step it up when he wants to. I am hoping Boubacar will be the proverbial dog with two dicks, chasing everyone down, protecting the defence and then charging forward when he gets it. Him and Nunes should both be detailed to get into the box at every opportunity, with or without the ball.

The base is then Kilman and Collins with Neves protecting and those three should be enough defensively whilst being expected to punch the ball into the midfielders and attackers at every opportunity. If Semedo is in a crossing position from deep there could be 6 men in the box if RAN has also made a run.

 

[Black Country Wanderer]

View attachment 30187
If I was implementing our style, I would go for 433, which is what both Pep (with tiki-taka) and Klopp (with Heavy metal football) use. Both of those teams press like animals and we now have the central midfielders to do this. Let the wing backs attack at will and get Neto and Guedes as close to the centre forward as possible, swapping regularly and making things happen.

IMO Moutinho is the metronomic culprit of all the boring, sideways rubbish, only willing to step it up when he wants to. I am hoping Boubacar will be the proverbial dog with two dicks, chasing everyone down, protecting the defence and then charging forward when he gets it. Him and Nunes should both be detailed to get into the box at every opportunity, with or without the ball.

The base is then Kilman and Collins with Neves protecting and those three should be enough defensively whilst being expected to punch the ball into the midfielders and attackers at every opportunity. If Semedo is in a crossing position from deep there could be 6 men in the box if RAN has also made a run.

Whilst looking great on paper a lot of supposition and hope in there
Costa may or may not work out
Traore very young and raw and as of yet unproven
Guedes will take time to gel
As will Nunes but seems further advanced with his transition
We have alternatives with Pod Raul Jonny etc,but second half of season could be very interesting