Musings from Molineux 23/24

[gullykular]

Dean smith was the better option no matter how badly it was going to be received.

He had to change because he got the set up completely wrong!! They only have one set up and attack style, I keep saying this and you keep ignoring it!!! He planned woefully!!! They don’t have different formations or patterns, they have one! And he couldn’t even plan for that against the weakest team in the league. That is inept and shows how low his level is that a one plan team caused him so many issues……

So id red cards are such a death sentance gully, how did we Southampton last season scoring twice with ten men????? Or why do teams down to 10 men often score equalising goals?? He sacrificed the game to protect a draw, fair play, but he hung Neto out to dry against massive cb’s that he had no chance with physically when he had better option in Sasa on the bench. You haven’t debated he made a bad call there because you can’t….. he sacrificed the final third outlet and pressure reliever because he has zero ambition or tactical understanding of the importance of an out ball……

I am not placing too much importance gully, seen it first hand playing elite sport and also when I worked with professional footballers……

managers have a massive role to play and can influence lots from the touch lines.

They played with a front three, having played with a front two in every game so far this season. That changes the dynamic entirely. You'll recall a certain Wolves manager making that switch the other way round and it paying dividends a few years ago...

Regards Sasa coming on, a beanpole striker with no one to support him isn't any better than a whippet who can run in behind with no one to support him. At least Neto stops them from pressing higher up the pitch whereas Sasa may or may not hold the ball up to relieve pressure for a few seconds but offers next to no threat as we can't get out from being pinned in on an incredibly tight pitch.

 

[gullykular]

I always look for your analysis Gully as it's very insightful, but I think the point missing here is that although O'Neill eventually made some changes to sort out the defence, nothing was done to sort out the bigger problem that he created with the set up going forward.

Playing Cunha as a lone striker is a waste of time. He doesn't hold the ball up and he needs players around him to play off (so play him as a 10 from deep or in 2 man strike force). Instead he was stuck up front on his own with Hwang isolated on one touchline and Neto hugging the other touchline (the wrong one, of course). The team chat you mentioned when Sa went down after 30 minutes was the first time than any Wolves player got within 30 yards of Cunha.

The main reason the ball kept going behind Semedo was because we couldn't get the ball out of our half. When Gomes and Lemina went forward there was no one in space to pass to unless Neto got first run on his marker. Other than that, no movement, nothing, so the ball went sideways, backwards and ended up being played long to no one. Being unable to hold possession in the other team's half meant the ball was constantly coming back into our half and inviting more unnecessary pressure. That was what needed to be fixed.

The change we needed from early on was therefore how to get the ball to stick in Luton's half. There were plenty of options to consider - maybe 2 central strikers? bringing Hwang/Neto inside to allow space for Semedo/RAN outside them? playing a number 10 to carry it forward? using Sasa to hold the ball up? even getting Fabio to run around a bit? Nope, none of those. Instead, we dropped back deeper and deeper and even when we lost a man in central midfield, we brought on a bloke without a left foot or any pace to play left wing back. What must Ait Nouri and Bueno have thought when Doc came on? Or Sasa or Fabio as they were continually ignored?

In blunt terms, that was no tactical masterclass, but just a reflection that you can get something when Neto comes up with a moment of magic and when you happen to be playing the worst team to ever set foot in the Premier League.

I agree on the idea that for that game, the set up from the start was wrong. It's not the same game as Liverpool and I tweeted pre-match that I think Sasa would be a useful option from the start of the game, given they have three CBs, we have a player in Neto readily providing chances and Hwang provided a goal threat too. Given the way the game went I don't think it was then the smart decision to use him for other reasons, but these are the changing conditions of a football match and we did make adaptations that were necessary.

 

[wolfslair]

I mean I've tried to explain why the game went the way it did in a 13 minute video, but if people don't want to believe what they don't want to believe then it's a pointless exercise having the debate. I don't think I'm actually trying to put a positive spin on it, just a realistic one. Because the doom-mongering is so far-fetched for me right now. Nobody can make claims as to the quality of our manager at this stage, good or bad. 7 games. It's no time at all.

Gully, i should say mate I do enjoy the videos you make BTW. This one just feels like you have reached for positivity a bit too far.

Little joke for you, i agree 7 games isn’t a long time to judge performance, but I once saw an academy kid effectively released after two weeks of training and only one half of football in a game at aged 15…… sport is a brutal thing to want to do.

In elite pro football, time is something you just don’t have! Results and performances are all that matters.

It sounds harsh, it is harsh but it is the mantra winners and succesful athletes and teams live by.

 

[wolfslair]

They played with a front three, having played with a front two in every game so far this season. That changes the dynamic entirely. You'll recall a certain Wolves manager making that switch the other way round and it paying dividends a few years ago...

Regards Sasa coming on, a beanpole striker with no one to support him isn't any better than a whippet who can run in behind with no one to support him. At least Neto stops them from pressing higher up the pitch whereas Sasa may or may not hold the ball up to relieve pressure for a few seconds but offers next to no threat as we can't get out from being pinned in on an incredibly tight pitch.

Sasa’s frame being “beam pole” has nothing to do with his natural strength…… or his ability to create long gaps and barriers from defenders for the ball.

That comment shows a real lack of understanding on your part for physical conditioning of elite sports people. A frame has no say on someone’s strength as many “bean poles” are stronger than those built like barrels or little battleships in elite sport….. it actually in someways makes him a nightmare for defenders as there is more real-estate to control and try to work around making their job much harder in controlling the physical battle.

Neto couldn’t run in behind after probably 75-80 minuets, he was totally gassed out! Hence why their CB’s came forward with little
Challenge for the majority of the second half. They had the freedom as Pedro had nothing left in the tank. He needed to be subbed as he was spent, not because of his performance.

Sasa holds the ball up very well and uses his body well too if you look at his previous footage mate. So he had a skill set far better for the role than Pedro. So Sasa had a far higher likely hood of being that successful out ball or even holding it up for a few seconds and also his back to goal link up play is a strength of his through his career, so again he was the perfect player to bring on.

 

[Chisels_n_ommers]

And in the grand scheme of things, that doesn't constitute a lot given away given we played for an hour with ten men. A shot from distance that hits the post is just something that can happen. Maybe my demeanour is more a counter to the sheer panic that has set in from what I've seen elsewhere, but I really don't think its useful to cry about the manager given the way the game went. Nobody seems to want to try and understand how football matches play out, context is everything. It's widely accepted playing one of the newly promoted teams early is the worst time to catch them and when you throw in how green Luton as a club, playing staff and fanbase are to this, it's obvious they are going to give us a tough period within a game. Like I said, if we finish that game with 11, we win and we almost did it with 10.

Let me first point out, I like your videos and the tactical insights they give - I never miss them and would recommend folks try and catch them when released - you do some great stuff.

But I have to go in on this one.

I don't disagree that context is key in such a debate.

However, to say we'd go on to win with 11 players on the field given the period we were outplayed 11v11 is an extrapolation I don't agree with (0 shots recorded at half time).

I don't think there is sheer panic - I think there is observation and many people seem to think our coach is being tactically undressed in most of our games so far. I don't think we'll go down this season with or without GON. But I 100% do think we won;t achieve our potential this season with him as manager. We will stay up in spite of him, not because of him. And because there are 3 very poor sides in this league.

And this is based on tactical observation and player utilisation (Lemina and Gomes have probably been in the red zone since game 2).

I believe we got a draw against Luton in spite of GON's decisions, not because of his decisions. The most glaring mistake in that game (of which there were several) was to leave Neto up front on his own for the last 20 minutes or so and try and defend our defensive third, allowing a team like Luton to carry the ball way into our half for crossing (and long throw-in) opportunities to unfold - which you would probably say is Luton's best avenue to get goals in any game - for they aren't going to play through you or really have great pace in their attack for transitions etc.

If the logic was, we need to take a point so let's get as many defensive minded players on the field as possible then that is possibly the most flawed and basic football tactical decision I have ever seen watching the game (a game where we finished with one attacking player - a winger who had run around for the full 90 minutes living off scraps - who I noted in the last 5 minutes had the ball 30 yards from his own goal and just booted it as far as he could into touch trying to clear the stand).

My take on our manager so far is that when he wants to attack he brings on as many attackers as he can. When he wants to defend he brings on as many defensive players as he can. I'm flabbergasted by it.

 

[Norwegian Wolf]

I agree on the idea that for that game, the set up from the start was wrong. It's not the same game as Liverpool and I tweeted pre-match that I think Sasa would be a useful option from the start of the game, given they have three CBs, we have a player in Neto readily providing chances and Hwang provided a goal threat too. Given the way the game went I don't think it was then the smart decision to use him for other reasons, but these are the changing conditions of a football match and we did make adaptations that were necessary.

I appreciate the discussion but we will clearly have to agree to disagree. Sasa was only one of a number of options to get the ball forward that were all ignored from the coaching staff. Adaptations were made in the game, but none of them dealt with the core problem in the team, namely the inability to keep the ball in the Luton half or anywhere near their goal.

 

[Norwegian Wolf]

Let me first point out, I like your videos and the tactical insights they give - I never miss them and would recommend folks try and catch them when released - you do some great stuff.

But I have to go in on this one.

I don't disagree that context is key in such a debate.

However, to say we'd go on to win with 11 players on the field given the period we were outplayed 11v11 is an extrapolation I don't agree with (0 shots recorded at half time).

I don't think there is sheer panic - I think there is observation and many people seem to think our coach is being tactically undressed in most of our games so far. I don't think we'll go down this season with or without GON. But I 100% do think we won;t achieve our potential this season with him as manager. We will stay up in spite of him, not because of him. And because there are 3 very poor sides in this league.

And this is based on tactical observation and player utilisation (Lemina and Gomes have probably been in the red zone since game 2).

I believe we got a draw against Luton in spite of GON's decisions, not because of his decisions. The most glaring mistake in that game (of which there were several) was to leave Neto up front on his own for the last 20 minutes or so and try and defend our defensive third, allowing a team like Luton to carry the ball way into our half for crossing (and long throw-in) opportunities to unfold - which you would probably say is Luton's best avenue to get goals in any game - for they aren't going to play through you or really have great pace in their attack for transitions etc.

If the logic was, we need to take a point so let's get as many defensive minded players on the field as possible then that is possibly the most flawed and basic football tactical decision I have ever seen watching the game (a game where we finished with one attacking player - a winger who had run around for the full 90 minutes living off scraps - who I noted in the last 5 minutes had the ball 30 yards from his own goal and just booted it as far as he could into touch trying to clear the stand).

My take on our manager so far is that when he wants to attack he brings on as many attackers as he can. When he wants to defend he brings on as many defensive players as he can. I'm flabbergasted by it.

Indeed, many great managers have said that the best form of defence is to introduce movement and pace up front. Maybe Gary hasn't seen that particular video yet.

 

[gullykular]

Let me first point out, I like your videos and the tactical insights they give - I never miss them and would recommend folks try and catch them when released - you do some great stuff.

But I have to go in on this one.

I don't disagree that context is key in such a debate.

However, to say we'd go on to win with 11 players on the field given the period we were outplayed 11v11 is an extrapolation I don't agree with (0 shots recorded at half time).

I don't think there is sheer panic - I think there is observation and many people seem to think our coach is being tactically undressed in most of our games so far. I don't think we'll go down this season with or without GON. But I 100% do think we won;t achieve our potential this season with him as manager. We will stay up in spite of him, not because of him. And because there are 3 very poor sides in this league.

And this is based on tactical observation and player utilisation (Lemina and Gomes have probably been in the red zone since game 2).

I believe we got a draw against Luton in spite of GON's decisions, not because of his decisions. The most glaring mistake in that game (of which there were several) was to leave Neto up front on his own for the last 20 minutes or so and try and defend our defensive third, allowing a team like Luton to carry the ball way into our half for crossing (and long throw-in) opportunities to unfold - which you would probably say is Luton's best avenue to get goals in any game - for they aren't going to play through you or really have great pace in their attack for transitions etc.

If the logic was, we need to take a point so let's get as many defensive minded players on the field as possible then that is possibly the most flawed and basic football tactical decision I have ever seen watching the game (a game where we finished with one attacking player - a winger who had run around for the full 90 minutes living off scraps - who I noted in the last 5 minutes had the ball 30 yards from his own goal and just booted it as far as he could into touch trying to clear the stand).

My take on our manager so far is that when he wants to attack he brings on as many attackers as he can. When he wants to defend he brings on as many defensive players as he can. I'm flabbergasted by it.

I think the 11 v 11 comment still stands. The shape of the game for the first 15 was the issue, thereafter (feel free to watch it back like I have) we give very little away and keep the ball nicely. That's not to say we were about to run all over them, but we were building comfort within the game, with 5 readily available subs to use when the time called for them and the opportunity to take advantage within the remaining hour of the fixture. Nothing unreasonable about saying that, especially having shifted the shape of the team. Think it goes unnoticed how hard it is to get messages across in-game to adjust plans, hence why Sa went down to give the players chance to speak to the manager (and immediately improve).

We've been a poor team away from home since the start of last season, which is four separate managers and counting right now, and I do believe we'll see an upturn post the Man City game as we get a run of more favourable fixtures. The issue with that being the fans have no patience whatsoever and like I said, an atmosphere at Kenilworth Rd that supported their team and got them off to a good start will be countered by an atmosphere at Molineux that will be baying for blood at the earliest opportunity.

We've had enough spells in games to not be overly concerned IMO, but people are ready to go at every slight underperformance right now.

 

[Chisels_n_ommers]

I think the 11 v 11 comment still stands. The shape of the game for the first 15 was the issue, thereafter (feel free to watch it back like I have) we give very little away and keep the ball nicely. That's not to say we were about to run all over them, but we were building comfort within the game, with 5 readily available subs to use when the time called for them and the opportunity to take advantage within the remaining hour of the fixture. Nothing unreasonable about saying that, especially having shifted the shape of the team. Think it goes unnoticed how hard it is to get messages across in-game to adjust plans, hence why Sa went down to give the players chance to speak to the manager (and immediately improve).

We've been a poor team away from home since the start of last season, which is four separate managers and counting right now, and I do believe we'll see an upturn post the Man City game as we get a run of more favourable fixtures. The issue with that being the fans have no patience whatsoever and like I said, an atmosphere at Kenilworth Rd that supported their team and got them off to a good start will be countered by an atmosphere at Molineux that will be baying for blood at the earliest opportunity.

We've had enough spells in games to not be overly concerned IMO, but people are ready to go at every slight underperformance right now.

I agree with you that the patience is extremely thin and that is due to those above GON who have created a mess.

I am not sure the masses will vent their displeasure against GON - I think there is a likelihood it could be at Shi/Fosun.

But I find it hard to have any feeling that matters were in hand in that Luton game. You've said most teams get a spell in a game - that's what we had in the Luton game - merely a spell. One where we stacked up with numbers in a lower block and kept the ball innocuously. Yes there was a moment of brilliance from Neto (one which was a bit fortunate in that it was aided by the ref getting in the way of Marvelous Nakamba as he was getting after Gomes before he played the through ball).

 

[gullykular]

I agree with you that the patience is extremely thin and that is due to those above GON who have created a mess.

I am not sure the masses will vent their displeasure against GON - I think there is a likelihood it could be at Shi/Fosun.

But I find it hard to have any feeling that matters were in hand in that Luton game. You've said most teams get a spell in a game - that's what we had in the Luton game - merely a spell. One where we stacked up with numbers in a lower block and kept the ball innocuously. Yes there was a moment of brilliance from Neto (one which was a bit fortunate in that it was aided by the ref getting in the way of Marvelous Nakamba as he was getting after Gomes before he played the through ball).

I don't think that's what happened at all and if you watched the game back you'll realise we were much more intelligent and composed than people remember for a good 15 minutes before the red card.

 

[wolfslair]

I don't think that's what happened at all and if you watched the game back you'll realise we were much more intelligent and composed than people remember for a good 15 minutes before the red card.

But what did we achieve in that 15 minute spell mate? As we didn’t create an opening or shot on goal.

We had more of the ball, but they had us well marshalled and they were never actually at risk of a goal against or shot.

So we actually achieved nothing of note in the 15 mins you talk about.

Possession means nothing if you do nothing meaningful with it.

 

[Chisels_n_ommers]

I don't think that's what happened at all and if you watched the game back you'll realise we were much more intelligent and composed than people remember for a good 15 minutes before the red card.

I think you have an advantage on me - I only watched it once.

So I'll have to go on what appeared at the time. The first 20 minutes, we were a shambles.

Neto (our best player) did not have any sort of touch of the ball until the 22nd minute. You'll know that, you watched it back.

For 15 minutes, in our composed period, we registered zero shots at goal. Whether there are heatmaps showing we were in an area of the field that was positive (ie in their half) we registered no attempts at goal in our composed, intelligent period.

Our intelligent, composure was to stop Luton from continuing the battering they gave us in the first 20 minutes of the game.

We didn't impose ourselves on the game at any time, including this glorious 15 minutes spell (by impose I suggest chance and shot creation). We stopped the side bottom of the league that should have been at least a goal up from battering us.


Sorry Wolfslair you beat me to it (did you watch it back?)

 

[wolfslair]

I think you have an advantage on me - I only watched it once.

So I'll have to go on what appeared at the time. The first 20 minutes, we were a shambles.

Neto (our best player) did not have any sort of touch of the ball until the 22nd minute. You'll know that, you watched it back.

For 15 minutes, in our composed period, we registered zero shots at goal. Whether there are heatmaps showing we were in an area of the field that was positive (ie in their half) we registered no attempts at goal in our composed, intelligent period.

Our intelligent, composure was to stop Luton from continuing the battering they gave us in the first 20 minutes of the game.

We didn't impose ourselves on the game at any time, including this glorious 15 minutes spell (by impose I suggest chance and shot creation). We stopped the side bottom of the league that should have been at least a goal up from battering us.


Sorry Wolfslair you beat me to it (did you watch it back?)

Watched full game then extended 60 min highlights as off work but still had stuff to do for the wife.

The red card is being used as the paper over the cracks of a bad performance for many, like sasa’s goal is against Everton where they were the vastly better side despite key players injured and for the second time a gk was the official motm against them.

I look back with my old work hat on…… if I was working for any other club not wolves, I would be licking my lips and love writing the opposition report and ways to get around a GO team, it would be one of the easiest ones to do this season.

As there are multiple easy to exploit holes and issues to exploit in our defensive structures and set up.

The only danger man to watch is Neto in an attacking sense as there are 4 simple ways to blanket and contain the wolves attack. We have seen three used so far and Edwards before the red card was in complete control of where the game was going to go as he had GO having to play reactive management and he was only getting parity, not progressing or moving past that, hence why the 15 min spell of touches fully shows was so easily contained on a defensive front for Luton.

I could write a small thesis on the way our attacking and running lines have been changed from the JL set up of the Rennes and United game. The Liverpool game used large elements of the hand over from JL, the drop off is that GO isn’t tactically strong enough or good enough to know how to hone it or refine it to keep us in the ascendancy. It is why there was such a change in our attacking play against Luton. He knows he cannot be a front foot/organised chaos lines manager which is what JL was moving us towards.

 

[Chisels_n_ommers]

Watched full game then extended 60 min highlights as off work but still had stuff to do for the wife.

The red card is being used as the paper over the cracks of a bad performance for many, like sasa’s goal is against Everton where they were the vastly better side despite key players injured and for the second time a gk was the official motm against them.

I look back with my old work hat on…… if I was working for any other club not wolves, I would be licking my lips and love writing the opposition report and ways to get around a GO team, it would be one of the easiest ones to do this season.

As there are multiple easy to exploit holes and issues to exploit in our defensive structures and set up.

The only danger man to watch is Neto in an attacking sense as there are 4 simple ways to blanket and contain the wolves attack. We have seen three used so far and Edwards before the red card was in complete control of where the game was going to go as he had GO having to play reactive management and he was only getting parity, not progressing or moving past that, hence why the 15 min spell of touches fully shows was so easily contained on a defensive front for Luton.

I could write a small thesis on the way our attacking and running lines have been changed from the JL set up of the Rennes and United game. The Liverpool game used large elements of the hand over from JL, the drop off is that GO isn’t tactically strong enough or good enough to know how to hone it or refine it to keep us in the ascendancy. It is why there was such a change in our attacking play against Luton. He knows he cannot be a front foot/organised chaos lines manager which is what JL was moving us towards.

100% agree with everything you've said.

JL used an intelligent press with pre planned triggers. (so did Nuno)
JL used out balls to keep possession (so did Nuno)
JL used his full squad to utilise the 5 subs and keep up intensity and morale (55-60 minutes for changes)
JL thought on his feet (having a much less knowledge of English teams than GON who has spent his whole career on these shores).

That's all GONe now.

We are like (Dominic Calvert Lewin-less) Everton without the set piece threat.

 

[gullykular]

100% agree with everything you've said.

JL used an intelligent press with pre planned triggers. (so did Nuno)
JL used out balls to keep possession (so did Nuno)
JL used his full squad to utilise the 5 subs and keep up intensity and morale (55-60 minutes for changes)
JL thought on his feet (having a much less knowledge of English teams than GON who has spent his whole career on these shores).

That's all GONe now.

We are like (Dominic Calvert Lewin-less) Everton without the set piece threat.

Considering we've been a bad team when the opposition give us the initiative for years, which part of this is GON's fault? Our best performances are continually reserved for teams who dominate the ball against us/leave space in behind. That's a legacy from Nuno days. Bruno tried to change it and couldn't JL wasn't particularly interested in changing it. Go and look at our positive results from the second half of last season and Bournemouth/Leeds are two of the worst performances from that period, but Liverpool and Chelsea were good. What does that tell you?

We need to move the dial on that front and someone like JRB is a key tool to that, except he's got himself a three game ban. I'm happy to say I'm not overly impressed by what GON has shown so far in the Everton game and the Luton one, but heavy caveats apply to everything until our new signings are bedded in and we get a run of home games against more favourable opposition.

Do not forget how bad we've been away from home for over a year now.

 

[wolfslair]

But

Considering we've been a bad team when the opposition give us the initiative for years, which part of this is GON's fault? Our best performances are continually reserved for teams who dominate the ball against us/leave space in behind. That's a legacy from Nuno days. Bruno tried to change it and couldn't JL wasn't particularly interested in changing it. Go and look at our positive results from the second half of last season and Bournemouth/Leeds are two of the worst performances from that period, but Liverpool and Chelsea were good. What does that tell you?

We need to move the dial on that front and someone like JRB is a key tool to that, except he's got himself a three game ban. I'm happy to say I'm not overly impressed by what GON has shown so far in the Everton game and the Luton one, but heavy caveats apply to everything until our new signings are bedded in and we get a run of home games against more favourable opposition.

Do not forget how bad we've been away from home for over a year now.

gully we were a very good home side under JL, best Liverpool 3:0, beat Chelsea and others and

This season we have been battered in two home games with an aggregate score of 2:7, that sits solely on the managers shoulders if you want to defend him because our away form has been bad for a few years.

Just curious mate, how can you use our historic poor away form to defend GO, but you said I couldn’t use his historical behaviours, stats and tactics plus track record at Bournemouth to use in my total review of his managerial career?

 

[Chisels_n_ommers]

Considering we've been a bad team when the opposition give us the initiative for years, which part of this is GON's fault? Our best performances are continually reserved for teams who dominate the ball against us/leave space in behind. That's a legacy from Nuno days. Bruno tried to change it and couldn't JL wasn't particularly interested in changing it. Go and look at our positive results from the second half of last season and Bournemouth/Leeds are two of the worst performances from that period, but Liverpool and Chelsea were good. What does that tell you?

We need to move the dial on that front and someone like JRB is a key tool to that, except he's got himself a three game ban. I'm happy to say I'm not overly impressed by what GON has shown so far in the Everton game and the Luton one, but heavy caveats apply to everything until our new signings are bedded in and we get a run of home games against more favourable opposition.

Do not forget how bad we've been away from home for over a year now.

Yes Gully, I make you about right in most of what you say there.

The new signings do need time, but that's on the assumption they will make the step up to this grade - for each of our new signings is coming from a lower level of football than the prem, which in itself puts question marks on the assumption.

None of our coaches have been able to achieve the possession based style that Jeff Shi thought you could turn on with a flip of a switch. Lage was asked to do it with inferior players, JL was initially tasked with getting us out of this complete hole we're in - style was secondary midway through last season.

In Gon, I haven't seen a coach who has any style or body of work to suggest a style.

He fire fights, not just generally but during games also and doesn't seem to know when to stick or twist in a game, makes reactive changes, makes changes that unbalance the side and seems to be inferior to each and every manager we've been against thus far (I'll give Ten Hag a pass, as he's proven his abilities).

I understand what your points are, about patience, giving time, green shoots and all that.

But there is a massive risk allowing GON to continue, given what we are seeing.

A very important point to note - the players have up until now been playing for GON. They've put a shift in and put their bodies on the line. You know as well as me, when the results continue to deteriorate, when players are asked to perform roles that are taxing their bodies physically and mentally without success and plaudits, when the crowd starts to turn on owners, coaches and players - these players putting in this effort will quickly do what all players do - play for themselves and their own benefit (or not play to be more apt).

I believe that is to come.

Man City will, by all known logic, stroll to a comfortable victory Saturday. I wonder how many of our players will be hard at it in the 90th minute?

 

[gullykular]

But

gully we were a very good home side under JL, best Liverpool 3:0, beat Chelsea and others and

This season we have been battered in two home games with an aggregate score of 2:7, that sits solely on the managers shoulders if you want to defend him because our away form has been bad for a few years.

Just curious mate, how can you use our historic poor away form to defend GO, but you said I couldn’t use his historical behaviours, stats and tactics plus track record at Bournemouth to use in my total review of his managerial career?

Because I don't believe a manager is an all powerful being like it feels you do. Everything is within the context of players, opposition etc. We've made a lot of errors as a club over the years, but sacking this guy would just be another one to add to the list. And lest we forget we lost 5-2 to Leeds and Bournemouth, let alone Liverpool and Brighton, two of the best teams in the league. You gonna kill him for losing to CIty at the weekend?

 

[gullykular]

Yes Gully, I make you about right in most of what you say there.

The new signings do need time, but that's on the assumption they will make the step up to this grade - for each of our new signings is coming from a lower level of football than the prem, which in itself puts question marks on the assumption.

None of our coaches have been able to achieve the possession based style that Jeff Shi thought you could turn on with a flip of a switch. Lage was asked to do it with inferior players, JL was initially tasked with getting us out of this complete hole we're in - style was secondary midway through last season.

In Gon, I haven't seen a coach who has any style or body of work to suggest a style.

He fire fights, not just generally but during games also and doesn't seem to know when to stick or twist in a game, makes reactive changes, makes changes that unbalance the side and seems to be inferior to each and every manager we've been against thus far (I'll give Ten Hag a pass, as he's proven his abilities).

I understand what your points are, about patience, giving time, green shoots and all that.

But there is a massive risk allowing GON to continue, given what we are seeing.

A very important point to note - the players have up until now been playing for GON. They've put a shift in and put their bodies on the line. You know as well as me, when the results continue to deteriorate, when players are asked to perform roles that are taxing their bodies physically and mentally without success and plaudits, when the crowd starts to turn on owners, coaches and players - these players putting in this effort will quickly do what all players do - play for themselves and their own benefit (or not play to be more apt).

I believe that is to come.

Man City will, by all known logic, stroll to a comfortable victory Saturday. I wonder how many of our players will be hard at it in the 90th minute?

Re the signings, I'm comfortable with the fact they're an unknown quantity. The likes of Nunes/Guedes were net negatives ultimately when they were brought in, so I'd rather see a few lads looking to prove themselves as opposed to the types who thought they were above our level. I think Bueno will ultimately be a starting CB for us. JRB has done himself out of an immediate impact now, but I expect him to be a big player for us. Doyle needs minutes as from what I've seen he's a little on the slow side and obviously Enso is a total wildcard. You can't sack him before he's given these guys a run.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Gully, I admire your positivity, but the evidence in front of us is clear. Gary is out of his depth and deep into excuses already. I think he can set up a team as we often start strongly, and initially look organised. But he is utterly hopeless at responding to tactical changes by the opposition, and the team has zero composure after conceding. We need a better coach now, ahead of the next break, while we still have time to sort out this mess. Gary is not the man for the job. Never was, and I doubt he ever will be.

 

[AndyY]

Re the signings, I'm comfortable with the fact they're an unknown quantity. The likes of Nunes/Guedes were net negatives ultimately when they were brought in, so I'd rather see a few lads looking to prove themselves as opposed to the types who thought they were above our level. I think Bueno will ultimately be a starting CB for us. JRB has done himself out of an immediate impact now, but I expect him to be a big player for us. Doyle needs minutes as from what I've seen he's a little on the slow side and obviously Enso is a total wildcard. You can't sack him before he's given these guys a run.

I admit that I have changed my mind; I was prepared to give him time but the manner of our performances, the lack of desire, the lack of discernible structure or style and the fact that players like Sarabia seem to be arguing with him when substituted indicate to me that GON is not the person to develop the new players and settle them in to PL football.
We do have some good players, but we are not getting the best out of them; they have lost confidence and I dont see GON as being the man to recover that.
The key question is who replaces him, not when will he be replaced?

 

[gullykular]

7 games people! 7!

 

[Sussex Wolf]

7 games people! 7!

7 games too long Gully. Should never have been appointed, and has done nothing to disprove that in the seven games he’s been here.

 

[gullykular]

7 games too long Gully. Should never have been appointed, and has done nothing to disprove that in the seven games he’s been here.

Who should have though?

 

[Kcb92]

7 games people! 7!

It's been pretty ****e but this where I'm at. Not sure what appointing our 3rd manager in 2 months is going to achieve.

I am hoping to see a return to the basics though. As "thrilling" as Utd and the Liverpool 1st half were, we came away from both games unrewarded. 11 players in their best positions (even if that means making some tough decisions around the likes of Cunha for instance) and play to their strengths/cover for their weaknesses.

 

[AndyY]

7 games people! 7!

As I say, I have changed my mind. I would not normally want to chop and change so quickly but i just see us regressing rapidly, and with no discernible means of arresting our slide in performances.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Who should have though?

Potter or Marsch would have been an improvement. McKenna likewise. Even OGS would have been. Since the club knew JL was a flight risk throughout the summer, they could have scouted any number of better qualified coaches here or abroad, including the likes of Rodgers , before his return to Celtic. Or they could just have done the cheapest thing and mended bridges with JL, kept him and avoided an expensive pay off.

 

[SakosRightFoot]

I admit that I have changed my mind; I was prepared to give him time but the manner of our performances, the lack of desire, the lack of discernible structure or style and the fact that players like Sarabia seem to be arguing with him when substituted indicate to me that GON is not the person to develop the new players and settle them in to PL football.
We do have some good players, but we are not getting the best out of them; they have lost confidence and I dont see GON as being the man to recover that.
The key question is who replaces him, not when will he be replaced?

I'll caveat this by saying I don't really think hes going to be a long term success, and I have huge concerns about some of his decisions, BUT....I do think it's a little unfair to criticise him for a perceived lack of desire, yeah he has to motivate the players but clearly he's not sending them out not to try so if thats what ou feel is happening maybe the players deserve some stick. I'd also say I don't mind players being unhappy at coming off, would be weird if they were, yeah for sure theres ways of showing it but considering you've said you think some lack desire that kinda shows the opposite.

I think they have lost confidence, but that is not really down to GON, in large part it was Lopetegui basically saying none of them were good enough for him to stay and coach them. How would you feel in that scenario, I mean he brought some of them to the club, sold them the dream and then abandoned it saying its nonsense months later.

The big thing is we all said Lopetegui needed a pre-season to get his ideas across, then slag off GON when he had days before the season started and has been playing games, having uncertainty over transfers etc then the players going off on international duty.

Do I think he should be doing better, yes I do. Do I think he deserves the sack for what we've seen so far, no I don't. I may be wrong on that and i'll hold my hands up if things get worse but I don't see a choice right now other than sticking with the plan and hoping it turns.

 

[SakosRightFoot]

Potter or Marsch would have been an improvement. McKenna likewise. Even OGS would have been. Since the club knew JL was a flight risk throughout the summer, they could have scouted any number of better qualified coaches here or abroad, including the likes of Rodgers , before his return to Celtic. Or they could just have done the cheapest thing and mended bridges with JL, kept him and avoided an expensive pay off.

How do we know they didn't. Do we really think Hobbs gave the job to the first guy who applied? Reality of the situation was we weren't going to pay compensation so anyone in a job was off the list, then people like Rodgers and Potter are either going to feel they are above us waiting for a West Ham type job or want assurances over funds that was the issue in the first place.

 

[AndyY]

I'll caveat this by saying I don't really think hes going to be a long term success, and I have huge concerns about some of his decisions, BUT....I do think it's a little unfair to criticise him for a perceived lack of desire, yeah he has to motivate the players but clearly he's not sending them out not to try so if thats what ou feel is happening maybe the players deserve some stick. I'd also say I don't mind players being unhappy at coming off, would be weird if they were, yeah for sure theres ways of showing it but considering you've said you think some lack desire that kinda shows the opposite.

I think they have lost confidence, but that is not really down to GON, in large part it was Lopetegui basically saying none of them were good enough for him to stay and coach them. How would you feel in that scenario, I mean he brought some of them to the club, sold them the dream and then abandoned it saying its nonsense months later.

The big thing is we all said Lopetegui needed a pre-season to get his ideas across, then slag off GON when he had days before the season started and has been playing games, having uncertainty over transfers etc then the players going off on international duty.

Do I think he should be doing better, yes I do. Do I think he deserves the sack for what we've seen so far, no I don't. I may be wrong on that and i'll hold my hands up if things get worse but I don't see a choice right now other than sticking with the plan and hoping it turns.

The players should be professional but equally GON has to motivate, encourage and inspire - They were up for it, and showed confidence, against ManUre, Liverpool first half & Blackpool (despite JL's words ringing in their ears) but dont seem it against Liverpool second half, Everton, C Palace Luton, Ipswich. Its GON's job to give them that confidence and he can point to the ManUre and Liverpool first half performance (and some parts of Brighton and Palace) to show them that they are capable, but what does he say to them, or what tactical changes does he make that leads to poor second half performances and an evident loss of shape and structure.
GON is saying to the media that things were not right before he came - we were impressive against Rennes (who had beaten WHU and Forest) and ManUre. How does that make the players feel? He is saying that they are "too loose" and not disciplined enough - how does that make them feel?

Sarabia didnt appear to show much last night (from comms) yet he is reported to have been questioning his substitution. He can question the substitution, but didnt seem to be trying too hard either. Its not my conundrum, its Sarabia and GON's.

I have said that I have changed my mind - I would not normally want to see a Coach go after just 7 games, and there are some mitigating circumstances, but we are getting worse and you cant keep blaming the previous regime when the evidence of that previous regime is that actually we were playing quite well.

 

[SakosRightFoot]

The players should be professional but equally GON has to motivate, encourage and inspire - They were up for it, and showed confidence, against ManUre, Liverpool first half & Blackpool (despite JL's words ringing in their ears) but dont seem it against Liverpool second half, Everton, C Palace Luton, Ipswich. Its GON's job to give them that confidence and he can point to the ManUre and Liverpool first half performance (and some parts of Brighton and Palace) to show them that they are capable, but what does he say to them, or what tactical changes does he make that leads to poor second half performances and an evident loss of shape and structure.
GON is saying to the media that things were not right before he came - we were impressive against Rennes (who had beaten WHU and Forest) and ManUre. How does that make the players feel? He is saying that they are "too loose" and not disciplined enough - how does that make them feel?

Sarabia didnt appear to show much last night (from comms) yet he is reported to have been questioning his substitution. He can question the substitution, but didnt seem to be trying too hard either. Its not my conundrum, its Sarabia and GON's.

I have said that I have changed my mind - I would not normally want to see a Coach go after just 7 games, and there are some mitigating circumstances, but we are getting worse and you cant keep blaming the previous regime when the evidence of that previous regime is that actually we were playing quite well.

Not hard to be up for it on the opening day at Old Trafford in front of the tv cameras looking to prove a point in an almost no lose game.

I don't think its a confidence thing v Liverpool, they simply ran out of steam whereas Liverpool changed formations and brought on top class replacements. The reality is if Traore doesn't let Robertson keep running then all their hard work to that point isn't wasted. It was the same at Palace, midfielders didn't stay with their runners and we got punished, thats not GON that's the individual players fault for not doing his job. The example i'd give is my Sunday team, if the guy I'm marking on a corner gets a run on me and scores a header I can't turn round and say the manager didn't organise or motivate me properly, it was my error. Same last night, where is Jonny going for the secon goal, why didn't anyone close down the guy for the 3rd, why did Bentley lose all positioning for the 1st. Yeah GON made some errors last night but he can't really be blamed for players letting us all down.

Like I say i'm not defending GON on everything, I agree I think he's made some odd decisions at times and he needs to stop the round pegs square holes feel to it, I just don't think hes as clueless as some make out and needs more time, we could beat City and Villa and everything looks amazing though we'd all know it wouldn't solve the deeper issues.

 

[AndyY]

Not hard to be up for it on the opening day at Old Trafford in front of the tv cameras looking to prove a point in an almost no lose game.

I don't think its a confidence thing v Liverpool, they simply ran out of steam whereas Liverpool changed formations and brought on top class replacements. The reality is if Traore doesn't let Robertson keep running then all their hard work to that point isn't wasted. It was the same at Palace, midfielders didn't stay with their runners and we got punished, thats not GON that's the individual players fault for not doing his job. The example i'd give is my Sunday team, if the guy I'm marking on a corner gets a run on me and scores a header I can't turn round and say the manager didn't organise or motivate me properly, it was my error. Same last night, where is Jonny going for the secon goal, why didn't anyone close down the guy for the 3rd, why did Bentley lose all positioning for the 1st. Yeah GON made some errors last night but he can't really be blamed for players letting us all down.

Like I say i'm not defending GON on everything, I agree I think he's made some odd decisions at times and he needs to stop the round pegs square holes feel to it, I just don't think hes as clueless as some make out and needs more time, we could beat City and Villa and everything looks amazing though we'd all know it wouldn't solve the deeper issues.

Absolutely players are making individual errors, but they tend to make less errors if they are bought in to the plan, understand what they are meant to be doing and enthusiastic/ motivated.

 

[SakosRightFoot]

Absolutely players are making individual errors, but they tend to make less errors if they are bought in to the plan, understand what they are meant to be doing and enthusiastic/ motivated.

True but at some point like at Man United and Chelsea you have to recognise they're simply not good enough or their time has gone. If 3 separate managers can't get Semedo to stay switched on for 90 minutes, or Jose Sa not to lose his head and wildly kick down field in the last 5 mins of a tight game, or RAN to actually cross the ball rather than running into trouble you start to wonder if its not motivation or coaching thats the issue but simply those players aren't up to it, certainly not on a consistent basis.

 

[bigwolf]

Not hard to be up for it on the opening day at Old Trafford in front of the tv cameras looking to prove a point in an almost no lose game.

I don't think its a confidence thing v Liverpool, they simply ran out of steam whereas Liverpool changed formations and brought on top class replacements. The reality is if Traore doesn't let Robertson keep running then all their hard work to that point isn't wasted. It was the same at Palace, midfielders didn't stay with their runners and we got punished, thats not GON that's the individual players fault for not doing his job. The example i'd give is my Sunday team, if the guy I'm marking on a corner gets a run on me and scores a header I can't turn round and say the manager didn't organise or motivate me properly, it was my error. Same last night, where is Jonny going for the secon goal, why didn't anyone close down the guy for the 3rd, why did Bentley lose all positioning for the 1st. Yeah GON made some errors last night but he can't really be blamed for players letting us all down.

Like I say i'm not defending GON on everything, I agree I think he's made some odd decisions at times and he needs to stop the round pegs square holes feel to it, I just don't think hes as clueless as some make out and needs more time, we could beat City and Villa and everything looks amazing though we'd all know it wouldn't solve the deeper issues.

If we beat man city and villa I'll print off your post, toast some bread, butter it, drop the post on top and eat it with with a knife and fork.

Whilst filming it for the mix.

 

[AndyY]

True but at some point like at Man United and Chelsea you have to recognise they're simply not good enough or their time has gone. If 3 separate managers can't get Semedo to stay switched on for 90 minutes, or Jose Sa not to lose his head and wildly kick down field in the last 5 mins of a tight game, or RAN to actually cross the ball rather than running into trouble you start to wonder if its not motivation or coaching thats the issue but simply those players aren't up to it, certainly not on a consistent basis.

Agree with that, too. And add Cunha jumping over a ball he could have chested in to the net etc etc etc.
The problems are greater than just the Coach, but it is his job to , er, "coach" them" and pick them in to a useful formation, with the right players in the right roles.
Last night, Jonny at RCB?
Cunha usually as a false #9 and Hwang out right when Hwang is a better goal scorer and Cunha is a decent ball carrier
Neto on the RHS
Of course, we also need to look at the recruitment of some of theses players, and the funds we spent on them......

 

[Bill McCai]

Ipswich went level at 39 mins last night. O'Neil had absolutely no impact on the game after that.

We cannot be surprised it is going badly, we all knew it would.

 

[SakosRightFoot]

Agree with that, too. And add Cunha jumping over a ball he could have chested in to the net etc etc etc.
The problems are greater than just the Coach, but it is his job to , er, "coach" them" and pick them in to a useful formation, with the right players in the right roles.
Last night, Jonny at RCB?
Cunha usually as a false #9 and Hwang out right when Hwang is a better goal scorer and Cunha is a decent ball carrier
Neto on the RHS
Of course, we also need to look at the recruitment of some of theses players, and the funds we spent on them......

I agree I don't think the formations have been right. Though i'll cut him some slack for last night, he clearly wanted to rest Dawson and Kilman and given Bueno was on debut maybe he felt the Spanish speaking Jonny next to him might help any language issues. Not like he had any other central defenders to select instead.

Hwang is a better goalscorer but hes not a central one really and we had Sasa and then Fraser on the pitch so it was understandable he was wider. The weird thing for me was throwing Cunha, Fraser and Fabio on with no one to create anything, surely Enso was worth a shout.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

7 games people! 7!

8, 6 Prem, 2 CC

 

[Golden Arrow]

7 games people! 7!

Fair point. Let's revisit after 10 (City, Bournemouth and Villa).
There is a positive of course; now we're out of the cup, we can now concentrate on the league.

 

[groundhogwolf]

7 games people! 7!

Unfortunately gully 7 to many. I don’t see any evidence that O Neil believes he can improve things, each game he looks more and more lost.