Munich Disaster and Wolves

[Timberwolf]

With the coming anniversary of the Munich disaster, I've read a lot in the national press, forums and social media which discuss with near reverence the Busby Babes. The disaster itself is undisputed tragedy and when you think the pilot didn't abort after two failed attempts, the loss of life seems so avoidable.
However, this isn't a discussion of the tragedy. My question is 'would Wolves have been champions in 57-58 & 58-59 had it not been for the tragedy?'
Man Utd had won the League the previous two seasons but in the 52/53, 53/54, 54/55 and 55/56 seasons Wolves had finished 3rd, 1st, 2nd and 3rd respectively. Also, in 59/60 and 60/61, we finished 2nd and 3rd. That's not to dismiss Wolves' efforts immediately pre and post war era's where our league position closely matches United. Therefore, one could argue that without the tragedy occurring, Wolves had the pedigree to have beaten Man Utd to the Championship anyway.
Which brings me onto my next question, 'Do you think the disaster harmed us as a club?' It seems as I read football fan comments and the Manc love-in in the press, that a lot of opinion is definitely made through Red tinted spectacles. It was Matt Busby that pushed for European Football and Stan Cullis gets forgotten. The Busby babes were the 'greatest', forgetting Wolves own team of superstars including Billy Wright, the then England captain. Had the disaster not happened, would it be fair to say that history would've viewed the Wolves team of the fifties, more favourable than the United side? Would we be the team with an 80'000 seater stadium and be the richest club in the world?
As I said, I am not in any way dismissing the tragic circumstances of the air disaster. This is purely a discussion from a football and public perception point of view.

 

[306NOTOUT]

This has been discussed a few times on here.

The chances are we would have been champions had the disaster happened or not.

Whether the crash made Man United what they are today is something no one could answer

 

[Timberwolf]

This has been discussed a few times on here.

The chances are we would have been champions had the disaster happened or not.

Whether the crash made Man United what they are today is something no one could answer

Has it? I did a search using 'Munich' and the top result was from 2011. I'll delete it then.

 

[Sedgley Gold N Black]

On the league, I’ve seen others say that we didn’t drop enough points from that point for Utd to win it.

 

[306NOTOUT]

It was probably 2008 Timber so leave it, will be interesting to see what others think.

From the date of the disaster we were 4 points infront of United and had to go to Old Trafford.

However we only lost twice and drew twice in the remaining games so to over take us (it was 2 points for a win) with the distraction of Europe (and they got to the final of the FA cup) would have been a tough ask

 

[Timberwolf]

Which makes it all the more annoying how history has been allowed to be airbrushed like it has.

 

[manc_wolf]

United were still one of the most charismatic clubs and biggest names in football, even then. I find it hard to believe that we’d be the Man United of football had they not suffered a plane crash.

 

[gewolf]

It could be as simple as the fact that they are from England's second or third biggest city and, certainly at the time Wolverhampton was just a Midlands town, although I appreciate that we are now a city.
Look at the permanent top six - 3 from London; 2 from Manchester and 1 from Liverpool.

 

[Wolfgang Wolf]

Memories today of the Munich disaster.

The first I knew of it was going up to town on the bus and adults on the bus in tears. when you're only 9 it really throws you to see adults like that.

I can remember seeing a couple of Games against the Busby Babes including the last one in the, I think, October of 1957. Despite his reputation as being probably the greatest English player ever I can't particularly remember Duncan Edwards although he did play. There are two that stick in my mind Tommy Taylor their centre-forward and David Pegg their left winger.

Wolves won the game 3-1

 

[Plastic Shrapnel]

If Wolves has bought a washing machine would the legend of Duncan Edwards be a completely different story?

 

[fev123]

We were 6 points clear and dropped 8 I think the rest of the season. We beat Utd the September before 3-1 at home, I think we'd definitely have won it anyway which shows just how good we were. Just sad the football was overshadowed by the tragedy.

 

[Monk]

Just to move this on a bit. In 1968 Man utd won the european cup and as an 8 year old it was fantastic when they came to molinuex at the start of the next season and paraded the cup and we all clapped them ( wouldn't happen know). I don't have a second team but Man Utd are actually special to me because they had great players in that team 2 world cup winners and George Best (wolves fan). I know I might get some stick for this but in those days special players and teams were appreciated and as a kid Man Utd were the one I wanted to see and beat most. For me there are many great players I have seen over the years but Sir Bobby Charlton is for me the best footballer I have seen and he is a world cup winner and all round good person.

 

[Floyd Man]

Just to move this on a bit. In 1968 Man utd won the european cup and as an 8 year old it was fantastic when they came to molinuex at the start of the next season and paraded the cup and we all clapped them ( wouldn't happen know). I don't have a second team but Man Utd are actually special to me because they had great players in that team 2 world cup winners and George Best (wolves fan). I know I might get some stick for this but in those days special players and teams were appreciated and as a kid Man Utd were the one I wanted to see and beat most. For me there are many great players I have seen over the years but Sir Bobby Charlton is for me the best footballer I have seen and he is a world cup winner and all round good person.

Back in the '60s I think fans of other teams perceived United a bit different than they do these days. I had a Man Utd supporting mate and I went up there with him and his dad a few times. It was great stuff to watch. Best/Law/Charlton - what's not to like? I was cheering them on in the European Cup Final then, but I can't see that ever happening again

 

[Dragonwolf]

It could be as simple as the fact that they are from England's second or third biggest city and, certainly at the time Wolverhampton was just a Midlands town, although I appreciate that we are now a city.
Look at the permanent top six - 3 from London; 2 from Manchester and 1 from Liverpool.

And oddly none from the second city

 

[Big Saft Kid]

There was only going to be one winner in 57-58, we just steam-rollered everybody. 6 points ahead at the time of the disaster (the equivalent of 9 today).

 

[Deleted member 3518]

Just to move this on a bit. In 1968 Man utd won the european cup and as an 8 year old it was fantastic when they came to molinuex at the start of the next season and paraded the cup and we all clapped them ( wouldn't happen know). I don't have a second team but Man Utd are actually special to me because they had great players in that team 2 world cup winners and George Best (wolves fan). I know I might get some stick for this but in those days special players and teams were appreciated and as a kid Man Utd were the one I wanted to see and beat most. For me there are many great players I have seen over the years but Sir Bobby Charlton is for me the best footballer I have seen and he is a world cup winner and all round good person.

Hated them with a passion in 1968, even more so than now.

As I've related previously, the Munich Air crash was the unintentional start of my 60 years of pain and suffering following the Wolves. As a young lad in infants school kicking a football about immediately associated myself with this club that had suffered such heartbreak. My dad a long time season ticket holder at the Wolves, whilst totally empathising with my sympathy, decided that his seven year old son needed educating, so adopting a degree of subterfuge took me to the Molineux and the rest is history, missed out on all the glory following United but nothing to the fantastic experiences I've enjoyed following our great club and include the Bhatti era in that.

Enjoying a replay of Saturday's game as I post this and Diogo just scores.

 

[oldwulf]

I've discussed this in my book. Wolves beat United 3-1 in the 10th match of the 57-58 season and also around that time they beat Champions of Europe, Real Madrid, 3-2 at Molineux and later drew with them 2-2 in Madrid. We would have won the title easily even had the disaster not occurred. We won it again in 58-59 and came within a point of 3 titles in a row in 59-60, when we won the FA Cup. That season's championship ended controversially when Burnley played their last match of the season after everybody else had completed their fixtures. We could have been the team of the century (!st to win the double that century and 3rd to get 3 titles in a row). but it has all been airbrushed from history.

 

[kennyB]

I've discussed this in my book. Wolves beat United 3-1 in the 10th match of the 57-58 season and also around that time they beat Champions of Europe, Real Madrid, 3-2 at Molineux and later drew with them 2-2 in Madrid. We would have won the title easily even had the disaster not occurred. We won it again in 58-59 and came within a point of 3 titles in a row in 59-60, when we won the FA Cup. That season's championship ended controversially when Burnley played their last match of the season after everybody else had completed their fixtures. We could have been the team of the century (!st to win the double that century and 3rd to get 3 titles in a row). but it has all been airbrushed from history.

It was Man. City who Burnley beat 2-1 away to win the title after the rest of the season had finished. I remember listening to it on the radio. The general consensus among Wolves fans was that we got stitched up by the Lancashire connection but in reality we threw it away earlier in the season by losing/drawing games we were well ahead in. One I remember we were 3-0 up with 20 minutes to go but drew 3-3.

 

[ShropshireLad]

As the Munich disaster has been mentioned...

Mourinho was complaining about how quiet the crowd were at Old Trafford at the weekend. Hadn't it occurred to him that there was a reason for that?

 

[Dubwolf71]

Which makes it all the more annoying how history has been allowed to be airbrushed like it has.

Airbrushed probably isn't the best word to use in fairness.

 

[Burton Wolf]

United were still one of the most charismatic clubs and biggest names in football, even then. I find it hard to believe that we’d be the Man United of football had they not suffered a plane crash.

I don't relate to that, they were just another club before the disaster. That's what people who were alive have told me. I wasn't maybe you were?

 

[Floyd Man]

I don't relate to that, they were just another club before the disaster. That's what people who were alive have told me. I wasn't maybe you were?

I think there are more basic reasons why Man Utd turned out to be a world wide brand and Wolves.........didn't. No question they were equal billing in the '50s. But Matt Busby always had an eye on the future so the young players were important to him. 10 years after the tragedy they won the European Cup. Wolves, meanwhile, were trying to re-establish themselves in the top division after a relegation. Cullis, great manager that he was, took his eye off the ball.

 

[Ian]

I think there are more basic reasons why Man Utd turned out to be a world wide brand and Wolves.........didn't. No question they were equal billing in the '50s. But Matt Busby always had an eye on the future so the young players were important to him. 10 years after the tragedy they won the European Cup. Wolves, meanwhile, were trying to re-establish themselves in the top division after a relegation. Cullis, great manager that he was, took his eye off the ball.

The times were changing, the wage structure and freedom of movement for players was taking place and Cullis was a dictator (Iron manager) who's power was diminishing because of that, I can't imagine him handling Best or Law....
He and Wolves didn't believe in paying the going rate and suffered accordingly.

 

[cowshed]

I was in a barbers shop in Castlecroft, behind the The Firs, when the news broke on the radio, I must admit I was shocked and did cry, as a 15 year old I couldnot really believe what had happened. I am not sure if we had a tv in those days or went next door to the "rich" Mr Perry's to watch the BBC news that night.

 

[Big Saft Kid]

It was Man. City who Burnley beat 2-1 away to win the title after the rest of the season had finished. I remember listening to it on the radio. The general consensus among Wolves fans was that we got stitched up by the Lancashire connection but in reality we threw it away earlier in the season by losing/drawing games we were well ahead in. One I remember we were 3-0 up with 20 minutes to go but drew 3-3.

Yep, it was against Preston. They had a left winger called Dagger who ripped our defence a new one.

 

[Big Saft Kid]

I remember losing the treble of championships very clearly. It was announced at the end of the bbc 9 o'clock news. I was aged 11. The world had been turned upside down. Never mind, I thought, holding back the tears, we'll win it again next season... That was 58 years ago...my prediction was wrong.

 

[kennyB]

I think there are more basic reasons why Man Utd turned out to be a world wide brand and Wolves.........didn't. No question they were equal billing in the '50s. But Matt Busby always had an eye on the future so the young players were important to him. 10 years after the tragedy they won the European Cup. Wolves, meanwhile, were trying to re-establish themselves in the top division after a relegation. Cullis, great manager that he was, took his eye off the ball.

Not completely true, Cullis's cubs were well known and won the youth cup in 1958 coming back from a 5-1 deficit against a Jimmy Greaves led Chelsea to win 6-1 in the 2nd leg. Ted Farmer, who scored 4 goals that night was on his way to becoming a legend but unfortunately got injured and only lasted one season. Would have made a big difference.

 

[Pengwern]

I listened on the radio as the Lancashire stitch up happened. I was almost 10 and cried with rage.

I saw the Cullis cubs throughout the early 60s and they were top for the first quarter of one season until Everton overtook us. Some great talents in there. Should never have sold Alan Hinton. Manure got relegated 7 years after we did, and Ronnie Allen built a great side, so I don't believe we were that farbehind them 15 years after Munich. While they were in Division 2 we played an FA cup semi final and a UEFA cup final. Fine lines - we should've recruited Duncan Edwards, Farmer might not have lost his career, Knowles may not have found God in his pomp.

Just like the fine lines on another thread - finishing 7th FIVE times in 15 seasons in the second tier - and then the play-off semis vs Bolton and Palace in the 90s.

I'm a great believer in the role luck plays in Football. We've had more than our share of bad luck.

 

[gewolf]

Yep, it was against Preston. They had a left winger called Dagger who ripped our defence a new one.

At the risk of being boring, I was at that PNE match and to make it worse we missed a penalty! Eddie Clamp, who despite this remains one of my favourite ever Wolves players, blasted it over the bar at the North Bank end. Little did anyone realise that this penalty miss could be blamed for us missing being champions...
It was the middle of a run of just seven games that our 'keeper Malcolm Finlayson missed that season and our top scorer - Jimmy Murray (29 goals) missed this one and just one other. Ron Flowers was also injured. So many different events that could have made so much difference.