MNF - Webb on VAR

[wolfslair]

I just tweeted Jordan on the Lemena issue - suspect nothing will be said. Jim White is such a ****ing sycophant i dont expect any controversy at all.

So you didn’t see the way he stood by his very very strong opinions with Eddie Hearn then? Many back down when Eddie is infront of them, he did no such thing especially over the Connor Benn stuff.

If anyone is going to give Howard a going over it is him

 

[Black Country Wanderer]

Didn’t see it.

A fair few items could be learnt from other sports, notably rugby refs.

Players and managers/support team (including ours) need to have respect for officials. Should be automatic 10 yard penalty for dissent and only captain can approach ref.

VAR should be ref led and comms communicated in stadium. Any reviews start with a full speed playback.

Offside has to be automated or more likely with a larger tolerance - no way can they pick the moment the ball is kicked accurately and then decide by a toenail if offside.

Finally, 2x30 minute halves with stop clocks for out of play.

Apparently live comms are banned by FIFA but Webb says that could change in the future

 

[wolfslair]

So far, Simon Jordan isn’t swallowing the guff but Jim white being his typical self is……

Howard Webb is a very very good politician, but he is struggling to give concise and actual answers to the more pointed and blunt questions

 

[Clipboard]

So you didn’t see the way he stood by his very very strong opinions with Eddie Hearn then? Many back down when Eddie is infront of them, he did no such thing especially over the Connor Benn stuff.

If anyone is going to give Howard a going over it i

Jim or Simon? Either way i didnt know about the eddie hearn stuff..

 

[wolfslair]

Jim or Simon? Either way i didnt know about the eddie hearn stuff..

Ah sorry mate, I didn’t say which one haha

Simon Jordan, he always presses people.

Jim white has to be the “face” man and often concedes or tries to soften the situation for the person getting grilled

 

[Clipboard]

Yes, Simon will defo challenge people.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

He was just interviewed on Talksport. Was a good interview. Defended refs and the system but didn’t duck any questions and agreed that they do make mistakes.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

So far, Simon Jordan isn’t swallowing the guff but Jim white being his typical self is……

Howard Webb is a very very good politician, but he is struggling to give concise and actual answers to the more pointed and blunt questions

Think he came across well, but agree that some of his answers to trickier questions were politician like. Credit to him for taking the interview live, including a Villa fan on the phone. Also think it’s good they are slowly increasing transparency around VAR and ref conversations - it’s been needed for a long time.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Funniest bit of the Talksport interview with Webb was hearing Danny Murphy try to explain why he would do a better job in the VAR booth!

 

[Watfordfc]

Funniest bit of the Talksport interview with Webb was hearing Danny Murphy try to explain why he would do a better job in the VAR booth!

Going down the ex players would make better refs etc route ?

Who knows but they could be as inconsistent in their decision making and soon be accused of bias or having an agenda.

 

[Munich_Wolf]

Looking at the complexity involved with the one example i saw - the overturn of the pen for Newcastle v Arsenal - i thought bloody hell its hellish complicated and stressful and they seem to be checking everything. Then my son put me straight and said that they shouldn't be trying to spot every possible issue all the time and just concentrate on what we though VAR was for in the first place. Checking issues that are clearly **** ups. For example (as has happened to us many times), if a goal is scored and everyone just gets on with it then there is no need to scour the footage for a potential hand ball or whatever! If there is a whiff of hand ball the players normally go mad and its something they should look at (although i guess this could be gamed by teams on the off chance there is something to rule the goal out).

I think they are trying to do too much and seem to miss out on the big picture.

Exactly what struck me too..... absolutely sanitising it. Also when he said "we can't sacrifice accuracy for time", so we can't expect decisions to be made any quicker in the future.

Football as we knew it will change.

 

[Fenrir_]

I just want to hear the conversations between the officials after Toti's disallowed goal at Anfield

 

[wolfslair]

I just want to hear the conversations between the officials after Toti's disallowed goal at Anfield

Ask Morgan Gibbs ****e….. he heard everything first hand and says we got lucky toti wasn’t sent off for wreckless and dangerous play.

He was also sat in nottingham at the time, but he heard EVERYTHING

 

[Sheriff Woody]

Exactly what struck me too..... absolutely sanitising it. Also when he said "we can't sacrifice accuracy for time", so we can't expect decisions to be made any quicker in the future.

Football as we knew it will change.

Now for me this is the problem. Minutes looking at every possible angle to find a reason to make a decision. Slowing down footage and not watching it in real time or with any context.

An on field referee and his assistants are expected to make a decision in a split second based on their view at the time. Yeah they get it wrong sometimes but that’s the nature of the game. Football is imperfect as a game and so are the people taking part. It’s part of the beauty of it.

VAR should be there to support and advise on ‘clear and obvious’ mistakes. If they are clear and obvious mistakes then they don’t need minutes of forensic investigation. It should be there as guidance and not the **** show it currently is.

If you take goals that are a disallowed i think it’s a safe bet that the majority of those are ruled out because of offside decisions. How many of those would be visible to the naked eye in real time or even slow motion? How many of those offsides are chalked off after 5 minutes of freeze frame and drawing lines (mainly inaccurate ones too) before deducing that a toe is marginally beyond the last defender?

Is that really offside and are those decisions being made in the best interests of the game? I don’t think they are.

If we have to stop, draw lines to see if a player was actually offside then to me it’s not clear and obvious. I for one would much rather see the benefit of doubt go to the attacker.

There needs to be a sensible approach, there needs to be a reasonable allowance for human error (both for the referees and the players) and a tolerance (especially for offsides) that doesn’t continuously turn VAR into a circus.

Sadly PGMOL have turned a really useful tool into one that has been so misused it’s lead to our game, the one we love, being turned into a sanitised product where the paying public are being repeatedly let down.

Rip it up and start again or if they can’t find a sensible way of using it get rid of it. I’d much prefer to be down the pub complaining about the ref having a split second to balls something up than some wally in front of a tv screen.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

It wasn't Mason's job to check for offside, that comes under the jurisdiction of the AVAR. Just like on the field it is the Assistant Referee who calls offside.

Well I've never heard this before. Maybe he should sue for unfair dismissal?

Lee Mason: Video Assistant Referee leaves PGMOL and will no longer work on Premier League games after error cost Arsenal vs Brentford

Lee Mason failed to check offside of Christian Norgaard in build-up to Ivan Toneys equaliser for Brentford in 1-1 draw with Arsenal last weekend; PGMOL subsequently apologised for the error; Arsenal boss Mikel Arteta called error not acceptable; Mason has left PGMOL by mutual consent

www.skysports.com

 

[WISAW]

Explain them all or **** off. Don't cherry pick the ones you want. Let's hear what the imbeciles were saying behind the scenes regarding the atrocious decisions we've had against us.

 

[Bawtry Wolf]

Now for me this is the problem. Minutes looking at every possible angle to find a reason to make a decision. Slowing down footage and not watching it in real time or with any context.

An on field referee and his assistants are expected to make a decision in a split second based on their view at the time. Yeah they get it wrong sometimes but that’s the nature of the game. Football is imperfect as a game and so are the people taking part. It’s part of the beauty of it.

VAR should be there to support and advise on ‘clear and obvious’ mistakes. If they are clear and obvious mistakes then they don’t need minutes of forensic investigation. It should be there as guidance and not the **** show it currently is.

If you take goals that are a disallowed i think it’s a safe bet that the majority of those are ruled out because of offside decisions. How many of those would be visible to the naked eye in real time or even slow motion? How many of those offsides are chalked off after 5 minutes of freeze frame and drawing lines (mainly inaccurate ones too) before deducing that a toe is marginally beyond the last defender?

Is that really offside and are those decisions being made in the best interests of the game? I don’t think they are.

If we have to stop, draw lines to see if a player was actually offside then to me it’s not clear and obvious. I for one would much rather see the benefit of doubt go to the attacker.

There needs to be a sensible approach, there needs to be a reasonable allowance for human error (both for the referees and the players) and a tolerance (especially for offsides) that doesn’t continuously turn VAR into a circus.

Sadly PGMOL have turned a really useful tool into one that has been so misused it’s lead to our game, the one we love, being turned into a sanitised product where the paying public are being repeatedly let down.

Rip it up and start again or if they can’t find a sensible way of using it get rid of it. I’d much prefer to be down the pub complaining about the ref having a split second to balls something up than some wally in front of a tv screen.

If we have to use it I would personally prefer the system used in cricket and Rugby. Firstly it’s down to each team to challenge a decision and they get 2 challenges per match or half. A correct challenge means you keep your challenge, an incorrect one means you lose it. Secondly, if the ref gives a goal or an offside is given then unless there is an obvious mistake the on field decision stands. If the ref is unsure they can indicate they think it’s a goal or penalty etc and VAR needs definitive evidence to over turn it. Don’t go looking for an issue where no one thinks there is one. How many times have we had VAR checks where everyone is set up to go again as no-one on the pitch thinks anything was wrong? It might mean that some toe-nail offsides are missed but that wasn’t what it was brought in to do. If the player is a yard offside or hand is used to score the defending team will appeal and use their VAR challenge.

 

[Watfordfc]

Trouble is some teams would probably use it every time in the hope they are right but guess that is the risk they take and up to them.

Obviously have to be used for things like goals or penalties but not everything which some would probably want

 

[Gazebowolf]

Well I've never heard this before. Maybe he should sue for unfair dismissal?

Lee Mason: Video Assistant Referee leaves PGMOL and will no longer work on Premier League games after error cost Arsenal vs Brentford

Lee Mason failed to check offside of Christian Norgaard in build-up to Ivan Toneys equaliser for Brentford in 1-1 draw with Arsenal last weekend; PGMOL subsequently apologised for the error; Arsenal boss Mikel Arteta called error not acceptable; Mason has left PGMOL by mutual consent

www.skysports.com

Why would Mason sue for unfair dismissal, when he wasn't even dismissed? As that article says he left by 'mutual consent' and therefore would have received a pay off and still have access to his PGMOL pension. Nowhere in that article is there any quotes from the PGMOL to suggest he was sacked, and tbh Mason had probably had enough.
The way in which the press report how the refereeing and VAR process works is totally different to how it actually operates. It is the same with refereeing appointments, and how they say a referee has been 'dropped' for making mistakes, yet the reality is refereeing appointments are generally known weeks in advance but are only made public in the week before the match. For example there are currently 19 SG1 referees, so with only 10 matches per round of fixtures then 19 into 10 doesn't work so you will always have these referees being 4th man, VAR or refereeing in the EFL, as per their contracts. It isn't a case of being dropped as if a referee has an on field appointment for consecutive weeks then he will soon be taken out of the firing line and given a rest not just for physical reasons but mentally as well. For example so far there have been 36 rounds of fixtures yet no referee has hit 30 premier league matches this season.

 

[Sammy Chungs Tracksuit]

What I will say is that Howard Webb is at least prepared to review this stuff which is better than the clown he took over from. If Webb can get Stockley Park's VAR decision process out in the public domain after matches including voice communications then it would go a long way to giving fans sufficient transparency.

I'd imagine that they couldnt broadcast decisions that have already happened without the permission of those involved due to data protection rules but if VAR and match officials were informed beforehand (i.e. that future decisions may be released to the public) then they would have to accept it.

 

[derbyrameater]

It might quieten the players when they do their poison, makes them think twice.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Why would Mason sue for unfair dismissal, when he wasn't even dismissed? As that article says he left by 'mutual consent' and therefore would have received a pay off and still have access to his PGMOL pension. Nowhere in that article is there any quotes from the PGMOL to suggest he was sacked, and tbh Mason had probably had enough.
The way in which the press report how the refereeing and VAR process works is totally different to how it actually operates. It is the same with refereeing appointments, and how they say a referee has been 'dropped' for making mistakes, yet the reality is refereeing appointments are generally known weeks in advance but are only made public in the week before the match. For example there are currently 19 SG1 referees, so with only 10 matches per round of fixtures then 19 into 10 doesn't work so you will always have these referees being 4th man, VAR or refereeing in the EFL, as per their contracts. It isn't a case of being dropped as if a referee has an on field appointment for consecutive weeks then he will soon be taken out of the firing line and given a rest not just for physical reasons but mentally as well. For example so far there have been 36 rounds of fixtures yet no referee has hit 30 premier league matches this season.

Spectacularly missing the point that according to Sky, Mason agreed to go after failing to check the offside, when according to you, that's not his job, but done by his assistant. Sure you know best though.

 

[Gazebowolf]

Spectacularly missing the point that according to Sky, Mason agreed to go after failing to check the offside, when according to you, that's not his job, but done by his assistant. Sure you know best though.

How am I missing the point? I clearly stated that how the press report refereeing/VAR matters is totally different to the actual truth, and that is a prime example of it. Just because Sky report something doesn't make it true, as like I said originally there nowhere in that article was there a quote from the PGMOL saying that was the reason for his departure. Essentially Mason was hung out to dry by the powers that be and like I said above he had probably had enough. At present the AVAR's are getting away scot free with it and are not facing any pressure or criticism if they make errors, as when they do make mistakes it doesn't get reported by the media. For example Adrian Holmes who was the AVAR for Mason in the Arsenal/Brentford match wasn't used in that role for weeks after and has only been used a couple of times in mid-table obscurity matches since, but of course that hasn't reported by the press.

 

[Stingray II]

Explain them all or **** off. Don't cherry pick the ones you want. Let's hear what the imbeciles were saying behind the scenes regarding the atrocious decisions we've had against us.

Exactly.
Show them all and not just the decisions that show you being competent and fair. Fans would love it. VAR of the day. Every game day evening for an hour. Hits and misses. The best way to cure poor behaviour is first to expose it for all to see. The opinions of our peers keeps us in check. There's a reason we hide stuff and it's better we don't.
This is like me showing the photos of my past good-looking girlfriends, but can't quite remember where I put the photos of the others. Around here somewhere, but I'm too busy right now.

 

[Wolf in the Lions' Den]

The ref for the Brentford vs Bournemouth game was Jared Gillett and on the audio in the clip Sky shared with the incorrect penalty for Toney, you can hear him repeating, “keep your players away from me, it’ll be checked, keep them away, keep them away, one last chance or you’re going in the book,” like a broken record. No one did get booked at this point, of course, but this game was only a few weeks before our match against Saints…and we all know what happened then. Didn’t hear other refs on any of the other clips shared making this point so forcefully.

 

[Mutchy]

How am I missing the point? I clearly stated that how the press report refereeing/VAR matters is totally different to the actual truth, and that is a prime example of it. Just because Sky report something doesn't make it true, as like I said originally there nowhere in that article was there a quote from the PGMOL saying that was the reason for his departure. Essentially Mason was hung out to dry by the powers that be and like I said above he had probably had enough. At present the AVAR's are getting away scot free with it and are not facing any pressure or criticism if they make errors, as when they do make mistakes it doesn't get reported by the media. For example Adrian Holmes who was the AVAR for Mason in the Arsenal/Brentford match wasn't used in that role for weeks after and has only been used a couple of times in mid-table obscurity matches since, but of course that hasn't reported by the press.

To be fair, thats very clearly been the case with what you 'state' too.

 

[Mardenboroughs Shoulder]

Now for me this is the problem. Minutes looking at every possible angle to find a reason to make a decision. Slowing down footage and not watching it in real time or with any context.

An on field referee and his assistants are expected to make a decision in a split second based on their view at the time. Yeah they get it wrong sometimes but that’s the nature of the game. Football is imperfect as a game and so are the people taking part. It’s part of the beauty of it.

VAR should be there to support and advise on ‘clear and obvious’ mistakes. If they are clear and obvious mistakes then they don’t need minutes of forensic investigation. It should be there as guidance and not the **** show it currently is.

If you take goals that are a disallowed i think it’s a safe bet that the majority of those are ruled out because of offside decisions. How many of those would be visible to the naked eye in real time or even slow motion? How many of those offsides are chalked off after 5 minutes of freeze frame and drawing lines (mainly inaccurate ones too) before deducing that a toe is marginally beyond the last defender?

Is that really offside and are those decisions being made in the best interests of the game? I don’t think they are.

If we have to stop, draw lines to see if a player was actually offside then to me it’s not clear and obvious. I for one would much rather see the benefit of doubt go to the attacker.

There needs to be a sensible approach, there needs to be a reasonable allowance for human error (both for the referees and the players) and a tolerance (especially for offsides) that doesn’t continuously turn VAR into a circus.

Sadly PGMOL have turned a really useful tool into one that has been so misused it’s lead to our game, the one we love, being turned into a sanitised product where the paying public are being repeatedly let down.

Rip it up and start again or if they can’t find a sensible way of using it get rid of it. I’d much prefer to be down the pub complaining about the ref having a split second to balls something up than some wally in front of a tv screen.

But it was clear and obvious that Toti's goal would dump Liverpool out of the FA Cup!

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

How am I missing the point? I clearly stated that how the press report refereeing/VAR matters is totally different to the actual truth, and that is a prime example of it. Just because Sky report something doesn't make it true, as like I said originally there nowhere in that article was there a quote from the PGMOL saying that was the reason for his departure. Essentially Mason was hung out to dry by the powers that be and like I said above he had probably had enough. At present the AVAR's are getting away scot free with it and are not facing any pressure or criticism if they make errors, as when they do make mistakes it doesn't get reported by the media. For example Adrian Holmes who was the AVAR for Mason in the Arsenal/Brentford match wasn't used in that role for weeks after and has only been used a couple of times in mid-table obscurity matches since, but of course that hasn't reported by the press.

Well, you don't get much from the PGMOL, this is the protocol according to the PL. No mention of the AVAR. Maybe they know nothing too.

How offsides are determined by VAR

See how the Video Assistant Referee uses Hawk-Eye to make offside decisions

www.premierleague.com

Here's Keith Hackett having his say, no mention of the AVAR

https://twitter.com/x/status/1624685797533184000

The weekend of that game also saw a bad offside decision in Palace v Brighton. This lead to the ref being changed at Anfield midweek, with Marriner replacing Brookes.

Brooks replaced for VAR for Liverpool v Everton

John Brooks is replaced as the VAR operator for Liverpool's game against Everton on Monday after his mistake during Brighton's 1-1 draw at Crystal Palace.

www.bbc.co.uk

Meanwhile the AVAR at the Arsenal Adrian Holmes indeed wasn't on AVAR duties, but he was actually running the line at Anfield, so that makes perfect sense!

If what you're saying is correct then surely there's someone else in the world who knows, maybe you can provide some evidence?

 

[Werewolf of Wombourne]

Maybe Ref's can be fitted with body cams like the Police have? Then you could see the Ref's perspective on every decision and also have a record of everything said between the ref and the players.

For instance, the Lemina sending off was a real head scratcher, but if you have a recording of the ref telling Neves prior to that incident that he does not want any more than two players running towards him and if there is a third he will be booked then it becomes more understandable.

 

[Elokobi Wan]

AI refereeing assistance will be coming one day and perhaps not too far away the way things are going tech-wise. Take the human out of it, an AI voice in the ref's ear providing near realtime insights based on video analysis.

Do we want that?

 

[old wittonian]

How am I missing the point? I clearly stated that how the press report refereeing/VAR matters is totally different to the actual truth, and that is a prime example of it. Just because Sky report something doesn't make it true, as like I said originally there nowhere in that article was there a quote from the PGMOL saying that was the reason for his departure. Essentially Mason was hung out to dry by the powers that be and like I said above he had probably had enough. At present the AVAR's are getting away scot free with it and are not facing any pressure or criticism if they make errors, as when they do make mistakes it doesn't get reported by the media. For example Adrian Holmes who was the AVAR for Mason in the Arsenal/Brentford match wasn't used in that role for weeks after and has only been used a couple of times in mid-table obscurity matches since, but of course that hasn't reported by the press.

We'd certainly had enough of Mason.

 

[Werewolf of Wombourne]

It was interesting to hear Webb on the Jim White/Simon Jordan show. It answered the question about why only current Refs can be used and not former refs and players as FIFA only allow current officials to be used. It also showed why some decisions were sent back to the ref to be looked at on the monitor and others not.