Luiz should have been sent off

[Big Saft Kid]

Has David Luiz got history of knocking anyone unconscious during a football match?

Has Raul Jiminez got history of knocking anyone unconscious during a football match?

 

[Big Saft Kid]

Chelsea's David Luiz says sorry for challenge on Brentford teenager

David Luiz sought out Brentford's Jake Reeves to apologise for a reckless challenge that concused the teenager during the FA Cup replay at Stamford Bridge

www.theguardian.com

 

[Jonzy54]

All this arguing changes nothing because views are entrenched.
The only thing that matters is Raul’s recovery

 

[QB Wolf]

Has David Luiz got history of knocking anyone unconscious during a football match?

Has Raul Jiminez got history of knocking anyone unconscious during a football match?

No Luiz has got a history of calamitous, inexplicable, odd and dangerous actions and this is one to add to the list. He’s a liability.

 

[Big Saft Kid]

And another one:

David Luiz 'Almost Killed' N'Golo Kante And Didn't Get A Red Card

Luiz's challenge on Kante sent social media into overdrive.

www.sportbible.com

 

[BarryM]

And another one:

David Luiz 'Almost Killed' N'Golo Kante And Didn't Get A Red Card

Luiz's challenge on Kante sent social media into overdrive.

www.sportbible.com

And which of those ended up with a player in hospital?

 

[Fenrir_]

The answer is 0. Not one. Not a single person who has played, managed, coached, or reffed at the top level has criticised Luiz, not one pundit or journalist has blamed him either, yet mol mix and twitter are up in arms. Strange...

It's not really strange, we've just had our best player probably put out for at least this season with a horrific injury. Blame will be apportioned whether it's correct to or not. So maybe incorrect, but not strange.

I've not seen the challenge since seeing the game live, I've seen a photo, and I'm not interested in going further than that. I will say there's no way David Luiz has intended to clash heads in that manner, but I will also say it wouldn't surprise me if he intended to put one on Raúl - he has previous for it - and got the worst result imaginable.

If it's a challenge with legs and feet I think he gets a red card, because it's forceful and it's late, not sure whether the rules would encompass forceful and late in the same manner regarding this incident

To be honest none of it matters though, all that matters is Raúl's recovery... the Mexicans have been letting David Luiz know exactly what they think of him!

 

[Big Saft Kid]

And which of those ended up with a player in hospital?

But that wasn't your original question. You asked if Luiz had ever knocked anyone unconscious. I am not sure if the Brentford teenager who was concussed by Luiz's challenge was knocked out or not.

The challenge on Kante was with his foot at head height. Not at a corner or at speed but with no-one else anywhere near.

If you can be bothered to have a look, you will find that Luiz has a history of this kind of thing -- crude, reckless challenges. That is the context of his challenge on Raul. If you look on their forum, you will see that a number of Arsenal fans were not surprised that Luiz was involved in such an incident (and they thought it was a red card).

 

[BarryM]

But that wasn't your original question. You asked if Luiz had ever knocked anyone unconscious. I am not sure if the Brentford teenager who was concussed by Luiz's challenge was knocked out or not.

The challenge on Kante was with his foot at head height. Not at a corner or at speed but with no-one else anywhere near.

If you can be bothered to have a look, you will find that Luiz has a history of this kind of thing -- crude, reckless challenges. That is the context of his challenge on Raul. If you look on their forum, you will see that a number of Arsenal fans were not surprised that Luiz was involved in such an incident (and they thought it was a red card).

So what you are saying is you still don't know the answer to the original question?

If I was to have a look I would see David Luiz is a centre half whose job is to defend, make challenges and throw his body Infront of the ball. He is X times more likely to be in the line of fire with referees because that is what defenders do.

Not one pundit, not one ex professional, not one current professional have suggested David Luiz should be red carded. Yet I have seen fans on here question what David Luiz was doing with his hands and arms at the same time of the challenge.

We have also had someone try and use a two footed tackle as a case to argue their point ... Embarrassingly for them they forgot to realise a two footed challenge is illegal regardless where it is made in the pitch and whether it is early, late or perfectly timed. They tried to delete this comment to cover up the flaw in their argument but it was too late.

 

[WickedWolfie]

Who do you think the courts will agree with? (If it goes to court, which it clearly won’t).

If, God forbid, Raul's playing career is over there is every chance of it going to Court. The insurers, if no-one else, may insist on it. The Court will look hard at recklessness and duty of care. Having spent rather too long at the Royal Courts of Justice l suspect Luiz would not have a pleasant time....

The only precedent l am aware of. The big difference is that they argued that Elliot was at least equally to blame. Hard to do that in this case.

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

You really don't get this. You're saying that the action of flying in to head the ball not knowing he 'wouldn't' hit Raul square on was reckless, in hitting him, not intentionally or is a straight red. You can't say it's a reckless motion and dangerous play just because he made unintentional impact with Raul, it's the same thing even if he didn't. Love how you believe that a red is only warranted to be shown for the exact same peice of play only of another person is seriously injured!

You can't keep saying that the run, the lack of control, the recklessness of the player was dreadful just because of what the outcome was.

If I'm running towards you with a hammer to smash you're face in I'm out of control and dangerous. Regardless of whether I make contact with you in going to get ****ed for being a crazy ****. You're saying I only would if I hit you.

It was an accident!! Two players going for a ball, one standing his ground marking a zone and one attacking the ball, all of this is acceptable but in this occasion a bad accident happened

I do get it, I just don’t agree.

What you’re saying is right in certain ways, including the extreme example you’re giving (running with a hammer).

But make a football comparison.

If a player is dangerous with a high foot and there’s no contact play goes on. Such as Burnley getting a penalty against us.

If a player is dangerous with a high foot and there is contact, a decision is made. Such as Mane with Ederson.

So, whether we like it or not, different decisions are made based on whether the contact was made.

Surely you get that?

I know the ultimate outcome was an accident but as we’ve covered again and again, most are accidents. My argument is Luiz’s actions increased the chances of such an outcome.

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

So what you are saying is you still don't know the answer to the original question?

If I was to have a look I would see David Luiz is a centre half whose job is to defend, make challenges and throw his body Infront of the ball. He is X times more likely to be in the line of fire with referees because that is what defenders do.

Not one pundit, not one ex professional, not one current professional have suggested David Luiz should be red carded. Yet I have seen fans on here question what David Luiz was doing with his hands and arms at the same time of the challenge.

We have also had someone try and use a two footed tackle as a case to argue their point ... Embarrassingly for them they forgot to realise a two footed challenge is illegal regardless where it is made in the pitch and whether it is early, late or perfectly timed. They tried to delete this comment to cover up the flaw in their argument but it was too late.

You really misunderstood the two-footed comment and you’re continuing to deflect.

The poster has shown you that Luiz has history for reckless behaviour. This is where you should go ‘fair enough, I got that wrong’ because you clearly didn’t know that Luiz had harmed the Brentford player or nearly kicked Kante’s head.

 

[NewarkWolf]

I do get it, I just don’t agree.

What you’re saying is right in certain ways, including the extreme example you’re giving (running with a hammer).

But make a football comparison.

If a player is dangerous with a high foot and there’s no contact play goes on. Such as Burnley getting a penalty against us.

If a player is dangerous with a high foot and there is contact, a decision is made. Such as Mane with Ederson.

So, whether we like it or not, different decisions are made based on whether the contact was made.

Surely you get that?

I know the ultimate outcome was an accident but as we’ve covered again and again, most are accidents. My argument is Luiz’s actions increased the chances of such an outcome.

So do you think regardless of the outcome actions like his should be punished either way due to the high risk of mayor injury they hold. If it's yes then he should have been sent off. And the next challenge made just like it with no injury should also as the risk of exactly the same. In all seriousness you can't for that situation. He made a run, he attempted to head it, elbows weren't raised, his run and angle was the in line with the ball fight, if raul didn't beat him to that he's connected with that ball as intended. It can't be anything other than an accident in that case.

 

[Hot Fuss]

Don’t remember anyone saying Nigel Spink should have been sent off for knocking Bully out in 1989? Came to punch a cross, Bully got there first.
Seems peoples attitudes have changed. I blame the internet.

 

[Hot Fuss]

In fact, talking of Bully, he said his very first goal for wolves was the result of his swinging arm getting in the defenders face and his finger jabbing him in the eye, causing him to go down.
some posters would want him in court for attempted blinding these days.

 

[Deleted member 11157]

In respect of balls played into a box at speed it must be seen that Luiz knew where that ball was going to land and his run was based on that ( they practice corners ). Raul did not know where the ball was going to land. Luiz had the momentum and his actions were judged prior to him attempting to engage the football. If he had not run into the box at speed the clash of heads wold not have happened because he would have been nowhere near the ball. In this corner situation it is nigh on impossible for any player to jduge who will get there first and pull out ( like they would on an outfield 50/50).

 

[Olivergoldblack]

It's annoying me that the media emphasis has been put on Arsenal's concussion protocol instead of looking into the detail of how this occurred, because if they did look at the replays I'm sure a whole big topic will be discussed, instead of assuming it was a 50/50 clash of heads which it wasn't.

And another thing, I don't like the way people who are supporting Luiz seem to think the ones who think he should have been red-carded want heading banned. No, it's part of the game but should be done in a safe way (like tackling). It's a red card because he was late, caught the player with force and got no connection with the ball - and also these injuries are way more dangerous than one caused by tackling. Your talking potential brain damage here.

They just need to make the laws a bit clearer with regard to heading, otherwise we could have more potential skull fractures protecting the offender of 'just going for the ball'

Football is a sport at the end of the day, not war. I don't really want my kids getting smashed in the skull by another kid who is suffering a growth spurt and is twice the size of my kid, because he thinks it's OK cos he saw David Luiz do it on Sunday, you know cos 'he was going for the ball'

 

[Wednesbury Wolf]

Luiz might be clumsy but I very much doubt it was deliberate.

 

[Deleted member 5910]

In fact, talking of Bully, he said his very first goal for wolves was the result of his swinging arm getting in the defenders face and his finger jabbing him in the eye, causing him to go down. some posters would want him in court for attempted blinding these days.

The distinguishing thing from the Luiz incident is the brute force involved, for a header that's at least 60/40 in Raul's favour. Bully jostling with a defender with his arm, and his finger accidently poking the guy in the eye is not the same thing.

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

So do you think regardless of the outcome actions like his should be punished either way due to the high risk of mayor injury they hold. If it's yes then he should have been sent off. And the next challenge made just like it with no injury should also as the risk of exactly the same. In all seriousness you can't for that situation. He made a run, he attempted to head it, elbows weren't raised, his run and angle was the in line with the ball fight, if raul didn't beat him to that he's connected with that ball as intended. It can't be anything other than an accident in that case.

No I don’t think he should be punished if he missed Raul.

I’m not saying running at that force is a problem. I’m saying it’s a problem when you miss the ball and hit someone, which he did.

A bit like Mane wouldn’t have been sent off had he not caught Ederson.

I want the same rules applied in the air as on the floor, that’s it. Regardless of intent, if you’re late and hit an opponent, you should be in trouble imo.

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

Don’t remember anyone saying Nigel Spink should have been sent off for knocking Bully out in 1989? Came to punch a cross, Bully got there first.
Seems peoples attitudes have changed. I blame the internet.

Comparing to an incident in 1989 trying to support your view!? Yes, times have changed.

 

[Flump]

Not one pundit, not one ex professional, not one current professional have suggested David Luiz should be red carded.

I think it's obvious that a contributing factor to this was that Sky didn't want to show a replay - so of course the pundits don't want to be seen discussing the red card.

Also you get let off if you're hurt as well, as Luiz was.

 

[Deleted member 11157]

Football is a sport at the end of the day, not war. I don't really want my kids getting smashed in the skull by another kid who is suffering a growth spurt and is twice the size of my kid, because he thinks it's OK cos he saw David Luiz do it on Sunday, you know cos 'he was going for the ball'

So ban players running into a box to meet a ball at speed? In all fairness that is the only way you will negate the risk or take it further and say the ball cannot go above shoulder height. There is absolutely no way you could risk assess what happened to Raul without drastically changing the rules of the game. The game without that aspect of the play is null and void.

 

[Deleted member 5910]

Football is a consequentialist sport, and players know this when they estimate the timing and force required to win a challenge. If you go to ground with a hard tackle, win the ball clean as a whistle and the opponent is unscathed, you are applauded. If you go in just as hard a few seconds later but your timing is out by fractions, you catch the man and get booked or sent off. Nobody is suggesting we should ban hard challenges, just punish those that are mistimed and result in contact / injury. Ensure the players understand the responsibility they have when committing to a firm challenge.

If David Luiz had arrived a fraction of a second earlier, he might have scored with a cleanly won header. But he didn't, did he. Through his incorrect estimation of the timing and force required, and his lack of awareness of his opponent's position, he arrived precisely at the moment that resulted in a fractured skull for Raul. Luck has little to do with it. He should face the consequences of his actions, which is a violent conduct charge and a three match ban. I'd hate it if Luiz learned nothing from this, because everyone agrees, "It was just one of those things, nothing to be done about it".

 

[Olivergoldblack]

So ban players running into a box to meet a ball at speed? In all fairness that is the only way you will negate the risk or take it further and say the ball cannot go above shoulder height. There is absolutely no way you could risk assess what happened to Raul without drastically changing the rules of the game. The game without that aspect of the play is null and void.

It's an interesting debate.
With slide tackling though the players now only do it if they calculate thats the only way to win the ball in that scenario, so if they get it right they win the ball. Get it wrong and could risk being sent off and they accept that as part of the risk they're about to take.
Hence why in the penalty box the players are very careful about sticking a leg out to make a challenge, they know they have to be precise or give a penalty away. They will also be able to calculate the success of winning an header or not and clattering into someone. If they know theres a risk of being sent off if they don't get it right, then surely they'd just be more careful about what they're doing.
Your probably right, it might change the way corners are taken (i.e might have more short corners and trying to play it into the box), but should prevent injuries Raul suffered too.

 

[Deleted member 11157]

They will also be able to calculate the success of winning an header or not and clattering into someone. If they know theres a risk of being sent off if they don't get it right, then surely they'd just be more careful about what they're doing.
.

I've played the game at a fairly high standard and trust me when it comes to attacking a ball played into the box at pace there is no calculation of success. Once you've gone you are committed and there are no micro-milisecond reappraisals. It just doesn't work like that.

 

[Olivergoldblack]

I've played the game at a fairly high standard and trust me when it comes to attacking a ball played into the box at pace there is no calculation of success. Once you've gone you are committed and there are no micro-milisecond reappraisals. It just doesn't work like that.

Maybe so, but it's not right. It's a red card because he was late, caught the player with force and got no connection with the ball and severely injured him.

 

[Shergar]

Mikel Arteta defends Arsenal's handling of David Luiz' head injury

Even before this incident, I have never been able to warm to Luiz. I’m finding it difficult to make any further comment on him.

 

[Dudleywolf]

Don’t remember anyone saying Nigel Spink should have been sent off for knocking Bully out in 1989? Came to punch a cross, Bully got there first.
Seems peoples attitudes have changed. I blame the internet.

Or Bradshaw v Swindon League cup semifinal !

 

[Hot Fuss]

Or Bradshaw v Swindon League cup semifinal !

Couple of years before my time but I remember seeing that challenge on one of the wolves videos I used to watch as a kid. Couldn’t really moan about the penalty

 

[Bradmore Wolf]

In my experience, when you head the ball your eyes are closed. Various searches of images seem to confirm this

 

[Deleted member 11157]

Maybe so, but it's not right. It's a red card because he was late, caught the player with force and got no connection with the ball and severely injured him.

Totally unworkable. You could have a blanket rule that gave a red card if your challenge resulted in a player going off injured but that would be a can of worms. Many would see it an ideal opportunity to get opposition players sent off (it's a contact sport remember) but then again if they clash and both miss the ball I guess both would need sending off ?

 

[Olivergoldblack]

Totally unworkable. You could have a blanket rule that gave a red card if your challenge resulted in a player going off injured but that would be a can of worms. Many would see it an ideal opportunity to get opposition players sent off (it's a contact sport remember) but then again if they clash and both miss the ball I guess both would need sending off ?

I think it should be a sending off if someone makes a challenge, gets no contact on the ball and injures a player on the ground or in the air.
Then it's up to the players to calculate the risk if they want to charge in.
I suppose a 50/50 header and they both clatter each other and miss the ball then just treat them both and carry on. In the scenario with Luiz, he was late and got none of the ball and injured the man.
If what Luiz did is acceptable, then what's stopping everyone charging in on a corner and nutting everyone?, then just claiming they were going for the ball.

 

[Hot Fuss]

I think it should be a sending off if someone makes a challenge, gets no contact on the ball and injures a player on the ground or in the air.
Then it's up to the players to calculate the risk if they want to charge in.
I suppose a 50/50 header and they both clatter each other and miss the ball then just treat them both and carry on. In the scenario with Luiz, he was late and got none of the ball and injured the man.
If what Luiz did is acceptable, then what's stopping everyone charging in on a corner and nutting everyone?, then just claiming they were going for the ball.

This post started badly, got worse and the less said about the end the better.

 

[Olivergoldblack]

This post started badly, got worse and the less said about the end the better.

It's just opinions. I didn't think it was a sending off until I saw the replay tbh, now there's no valid argument as to why it wasn't - in my opinion.

 

[derbyrameater]

I was a big fan of Luiz when he first appeared, but eventually saw his reckless brain farts and realised he is a loose canon and you’re just waiting for the next one.

I was very surprised when Chelsea let him go, I have no idea what their reason was, anyone know ?

 

[Flea]

No.
Luiz shouldn´t have been sent off.
It was an unintentional clash of heads.It has happened before and it will happen again.
End of this strange discussion as far as I´m concerned.

 

[Hot Fuss]

I was a big fan of Luiz when he first appeared, but eventually saw his reckless brain farts and realised he is a loose canon and you’re just waiting for the next one.

I was very surprised when Chelsea let him go, I have no idea what their reason was, anyone know ?

I’d imagine the then world record fee for a defender of 50 million pounds was a big reason the first time Chelsea let him go.

 

[Wolfy McWolf-Face]

Disagree.

Can you explain the Elokobi one please.

Why is this a red and Luiz's not?

Because God hates us. Which is a real kick in the teeth considering Bully is God.

 

[tamworth]

End of day you go in late for a tackle and go over the ball and break someone's leg you get sent off, don't think anyone does this intentionally but it happens. Luiz was late and reckless, sending off all day long. And also I never mentioned foot to head so some people really do need to read before replying. If it was the other way round Jimmy would have to go.