JONZY54- Ref Watch v West Ham

[maws]

I doubt it. West Ham have been on the receiving end of some poor decisions so I suspect there is genuine sympathy.

As for the decision, well as I said earlier, if that’s the case, there should be goals struck off for the same “interference” every single week. Every time a corner or cross comes in, and an attacking player is in an offside position but doesn’t touch the ball or foul a defending player, but is just in and around the box. As was clear from the replays and comments, Fabianski could see the ball, and he wasn’t prevented from moving for it. To be offside he had to be “interfering” with play, and if that’s the call today, then it undermines different decisions made by officials every week. That’s not been the way this rule has been applied until now, in the vast majority of games.

Unfortunately VAR put the referee in an impossible position today. Having pointed out the situation and rule, and asked him to look at the monitor, he made it very hard for the referee to do anything but overturn his own initial decision. So VAR re refereed the game, and established a precedent which if applied in every other game going forward, will cause an outcry by everyone involved in the sport, and a change in the rule. It won’t be the first time that’s happened to Wolves since we were promoted.

Referees should be brave enough to deal with VAR, no he’s never getting that ball, so I’m allowing it. Unfortunately they’re weak

 

[Superted]

If this is offside what stops a team employing a deliberate tactic of playing an offside line then the keeper quickly moving behind an opposition player so he can't see the ball then claiming his view was obstructed by the opposition player?

They'd never concede a goal from a corner again right?

 

[Pagey]

Left the ground today as confused about the VAR decision as I've ever been, screen showed var was checking for offside, then called the ref to to watch the monitor and make a decision?

Tell me another instance of that? All the pundits in the past have said offside is black n white, but not today then?

Wtf?

 

[Wellington Wolf]

Our manager says it was an incorrect decision. If he is to be believed (which I do,) then Moyes and their GK concur.

But loads of people on here who have never played football are saying it was the correct decision.

I know forums are about opinion, but....

 

[Mancwolf56]

Our manager says it was an incorrect decision. If he is to be believed (which I do,) then Moyes and their GK concur.

But loads of people on here who have never played football are saying it was the correct decision.

I know forums are about opinion, but....

To be fair it’s not loads of people but mainly two plus our friend from Norfolk

 

[Bryce]

It’s a travesty of justice
West Ham got a VAR get out of jail free card

Which ultimately costs us any chance if Europe

Wolves are totally right to be furious

 

[glorybox]

Are there Wolves fans seriously saying this is the right decision?

Gary is apoplectic, Moyes and Fabianski agreed the decision was wrong, lots of pundits who normally hate us are out in support, but there are actual fans of the club siding with the referee?

If there can't be consensus on this, there will never be consensus on anything!

Because some fans on here love to take the opposite position. Literally bask in it. It’s a shocking decision. And people who excuse it may as well go and join the VAR shambles.

 

[SuperGran]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1776679994606932041

 

[Perton Wolf]

Because some fans on here love to take the opposite position. Literally bask in it. It’s a shocking decision. And people who excuse it may as well go and join the VAR shambles.

Boring. It's just an opinion. Not that deep.

We've been ****ed over plenty of times by officials this season, inexcusably so. However, can see why that was given today.

Albeit, not sure if strictly met the 'clear and obvious' criteria.....

 

[Peszkywolf]

Clear and obvious, you're having a laugh!!!

 

[maws]

The rules state it has to be clear and obvious, there’s no one in the world can see that as clear and obvious

 

[JadeWolf]

Failing FFP: 4-6 points deduction
VAR: 10 point deduction.

 

[Oh When the Wolves]

How can it be clear and obvious unless there is a camera from fabianskis eyes

 

[Plastic Shrapnel]

Rudimentary I know, but if the ball is above the top of Chirewa's head Fabianski's view of the ball is NOT impeded.

Look at the ****ing height difference in the players for a start!

The fact Fabianski is staring directly at the ball is evidence in itself.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Shall we talk about the Gomes yellow too. What on earth was that about. Madness

Pretty straightforward I thought. Ref gave a free kick and clearly thought that was good enough. Then several West Ham players asked for a yellow (supposed to be a yellow itself) so about 20 seconds after the incident the ref decided to give one.

 

[SuperGran]

Pretty straightforward I thought. Ref gave a free kick and clearly thought that was good enough. Then several West Ham players asked for a yellow (supposed to be a yellow itself) so about 20 seconds after the incident the ref decided to give one.

That was pathetic

 

[maws]

How many VAR calls have gone our way when we all thought hmm probably won’t get this? I’m struggling to think of many

 

[Netherton Wolf]

How many VAR calls have gone our way when we all thought hmm probably won’t get this? I’m struggling to think of many

The only thing I recall is saying I thought villa should have had a penalty at the end of our home game when Doc pushed Watkins with both hands, but it didn't go to var

 

[WickedWolfie]

Referees should be brave enough to deal with VAR, no he’s never getting that ball, so I’m allowing it. Unfortunately they’re weak

Sounds rather too close to Hooper's "we don't give those" when denying us a penalty at Old Trafford. I didn't hear him called strong or brave...

 

[WickedWolfie]

Shall we talk about the Gomes yellow too. What on earth was that about. Madness

At the time l assumed that he'd said something....

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

Sounds rather too close to Hooper's "we don't give those" when denying us a penalty at Old Trafford. I didn't hear him called strong or brave...

They want certain teams to win and be in European competition

We aren’t part of that group unfortunately. Just look at the decisions that go against us season after season.

 

[WickedWolfie]

They want certain teams to win and be in European competition

We aren’t part of that group unfortunately. Just look at the decisions that go against us season after season.

It certainly feels that way at times.... See the Mike Dean penalty decision for Burnley against Doc....

 

[Sussex Wolf]

How many VAR calls have gone our way when we all thought hmm probably won’t get this? I’m struggling to think of many

Very, very few. This was what was pointed out in the first half of the season when it seemed to be happening most weeks. Then GON had his head to head with PGMOL, and things improved, then today happens. If GON gave them a final warning before, then it’s time to let leash the dogs of war, and have our lawyers rip these *******s apart. I’d genuinely accept Wolves getting booted out of this league if it meant we took this **** show down first.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Very, very few. This was what was pointed out in the first half of the season when it seemed to be happening most weeks. Then GON had his head to head with PGMOL, and things improved, then today happens. If GON gave them a final warning before, then it’s time to let leash the dogs of war, and have our lawyers rip these *******s apart. I’d genuinely accept Wolves getting booted out of this league if it meant we took this **** show down first.

I'm mad as hell again, but that's still way over the top.

 

[JadeWolf]

Very, very few. This was what was pointed out in the first half of the season when it seemed to be happening most weeks. Then GON had his head to head with PGMOL, and things improved, then today happens. If GON gave them a final warning before, then it’s time to let leash the dogs of war, and have our lawyers rip these *******s apart. I’d genuinely accept Wolves getting booted out of this league if it meant we took this **** show down first.

Extreme but maybe it’s time we started making a bit more of a snarl. Lego head Arteta had a whinge and wrote a letter to the FA and since then they’ve had a lot of tight calls go their way.

 

[Tezthewolvesfan]

Tbf I'm sick of it...yes we were poor in the second half but the decision was just plain ridiculous

 

[Sussex Wolf]

I'm mad as hell again, but that's still way over the top.

No it’s not. At what point does the club say enough is enough? It’s pretty clear from things he said, that around the turn of the year Gary reached the end of his tether with PGMOL, and then things improved. Unless you believe in massive coincidences or warm hearted officials, then it suggests the club was prepared to act and made this clear in private. On the basis today has seen them back to their old ways, and they had their final warning already, then it’s time for action.

The actions of officials have cost us more than 10 points this season. That’s more than any of the clubs which have broken PSR rules. Just based on prize money alone, that’s likely to cost us 10m+, which is plenty to go after in damages. Add in reputational damages, failure to qualify for Europe, and emotional damages, and there are tens of millions for lawyers to seek. A successful case would open the floodgates to other clubs, and this whole house of cards will collapse.

 

[JadeWolf]

Tbf I'm sick of it...yes we were poor in the second half but the decision was just plain ridiculous

Great first half, poor second half, draw would have been about right for me. Which we’d have got but for a terrible decision.

 

[Oldgold Wolfcub]

Shall we talk about the Gomes yellow too. What on earth was that about. Madness

You do realise that refs carry a special card that looks like a yellow one but is actually old gold espeially for us.
Not a lot of people know that.

 

[Watfordfc]

Is it really up to the ref to decide if a player will get to the ball or not?

Unless it's clear cut surely just another subjective view point.

 

[Oldgold Wolfcub]

Pretty straightforward I thought. Ref gave a free kick and clearly thought that was good enough. Then several West Ham players asked for a yellow (supposed to be a yellow itself) so about 20 seconds after the incident the ref decided to give one.

Did he wait for the third Wet spammer to complain and then made his decision?

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

No it’s not. At what point does the club say enough is enough? It’s pretty clear from things he said, that around the turn of the year Gary reached the end of his tether with PGMOL, and then things improved. Unless you believe in massive coincidences or warm hearted officials, then it suggests the club was prepared to act and made this clear in private. On the basis today has seen them back to their old ways, and they had their final warning already, then it’s time for action.

The actions of officials have cost us more than 10 points this season. That’s more than any of the clubs which have broken PSR rules. Just based on prize money alone, that’s likely to cost us 10m+, which is plenty to go after in damages. Add in reputational damages, failure to qualify for Europe, and emotional damages, and there are tens of millions for lawyers to seek. A successful case would open the floodgates to other clubs, and this whole house of cards will collapse.

Well I'd say there's no case in law against referees making mistakes unless you can prove corruption or negligence. Also I'd imagine if someone at the club thought there was a case it would have to go through CAS, who will throw it out immediately. Then there's the suggestion you're OK with us being thrown out of the league in order to bring about change at the PGMOL presumably - well that's just silly. Just huge over-reaction in the aftermath of a game.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Well I'd say there's no case in law against referees making mistakes unless you can prove corruption or negligence. Also I'd imagine if someone at the club thought there was a case it would have to go through CAS, who will throw it out immediately. Then there's the suggestion you're OK with us being thrown out of the league in order to bring about change at the PGMOL presumably - well that's just silly. Just huge over-reaction in the aftermath of a game.

I had this argument back earlier in the season. It is not fantasy to apply statistics to the decisions made for and against Wolves across a large sample of games to determine whether there was objective bias by one or more officials. The key is to compare similar actions or situations and the decisions of the same referees so as to eliminate PGMOL defences such as different opinions between different referees, and subtle differences in the situations. It’s not easy, but with the help of an experienced official hired as a consultant (like Forest have done) then it should be possible given every single PL is videoed.

Bias doesn’t prove corruption, for that you’d need other evidence such as emails, voice recordings, letters or witness statements. But just proving bias, and having raised it previously, a failure to identify and eradicate it, would I believe, be sufficient to claim damages on the basis of wilful negligence.

As for the relevant court, that’s a judgement for the lawyers. If a club can demonstrate financial loss as a result of wilful negligence by the authorities, then I see no reason why it cannot ultimately go to a civil case for damages. I’m damn sure that if Man City were found guilty of their charges, and relegated, that they’re just going to stop at CAS if they don’t get the outcome they wish. They would be looking at losses running into hundreds of millions. The European Super League went to the European Court of Justice for instance.

 

[yateleywolf]

Two things :-
It's the re-reffing of games that we were told and keep being told VAR wouldn't do.
Second VAR has become double jeopardy, as someone else, said the get out of jail card.
It takes all the spontaneity and enjoyment out of the game.

 

[NJ Wolves]

Left the ground today as confused about the VAR decision as I've ever been, screen showed var was checking for offside, then called the ref to to watch the monitor and make a decision?

Tell me another instance of that? All the pundits in the past have said offside is black n white, but not today then?

Wtf?

You can argue if that could be offside or not by the letter of the law. It certainly didn't look clear and obvious to me that the ref got it wrong when you piece the puzzle together of the various camera angles.

But forget that, it's missing the point about the bigger picture here. What really really bothers me is this is an example of VAR ruling out a goal that NO ONE ON EARTH, including pundits, refs, the opposition keeper, etc. would have thought twice about in the "old days" before VAR.

I thought the intent was to eliminate diving. To correct major mistakes. If anything it's encouraged diving. And we talk more about reffing now than ever before.

BIN IT THE **** OFF

 

[Perton Wolf]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1776720059198521436

Longer video/clip available in that tweet. Why does our player move in front of the GK as the ball goes to Kilman? So that when Kilman heads it, he's right in front of him. He doesn't actually start in front of Fabianski so no idea why he's making that move.

No need to do it, inexperience has cost us there.

 

[Mancwolf56]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1776720059198521436

Longer video/clip available in that tweet. Why does our player move in front of the GK as the ball goes to Kilman? So that when Kilman heads it, he's right in front of him. He doesn't actually start in front of Fabianski so no idea why he's making that move.

No need to do it, inexperience has cost us there.

So you’re still saying it was the correct decision?

 

[MKB]

He doesn't actually start in front of Fabianski so no idea why he's making that move.

Clearly to get out the way of the header so he doesn’t accidentally block it.

 

[maws]

I’m going to argue black is white next!

 

[old wittonian]

I had this argument back earlier in the season. It is not fantasy to apply statistics to the decisions made for and against Wolves across a large sample of games to determine whether there was objective bias by one or more officials. The key is to compare similar actions or situations and the decisions of the same referees so as to eliminate PGMOL defences such as different opinions between different referees, and subtle differences in the situations. It’s not easy, but with the help of an experienced official hired as a consultant (like Forest have done) then it should be possible given every single PL is videoed.

Bias doesn’t prove corruption, for that you’d need other evidence such as emails, voice recordings, letters or witness statements. But just proving bias, and having raised it previously, a failure to identify and eradicate it, would I believe, be sufficient to claim damages on the basis of wilful negligence.

As for the relevant court, that’s a judgement for the lawyers. If a club can demonstrate financial loss as a result of wilful negligence by the authorities, then I see no reason why it cannot ultimately go to a civil case for damages. I’m damn sure that if Man City were found guilty of their charges, and relegated, that they’re just going to stop at CAS if they don’t get the outcome they wish. They would be looking at losses running into hundreds of millions. The European Super League went to the European Court of Justice for instance.

Court cases, lawyers. Is that why Webb seems to have stopped apologising?