Is the German Model (or 50+1 Rule) the answer?

[Keyser Soze]

I've seen so many people calling for 'the German Model' to be implemented in the Premier League or the 50+1 rule this week... give control back to the fans and this will be the answer to stop this happening again

In Germany, there is the "50 + 1" rule, whereby the association or club has to have a controlling stake, commercial interests can't gain control, In Bayern Munich, for example, Audi and Adidas each own 9% but the rest is controlled by the members via the club...

see below an old article from 2013

German football model is a league apart

Two German clubs will contest this year's Champions League final at Wembley, but what can be learnt from the country's football business model?

www.bbc.co.uk

And this one from a few years ago

Explaining the Bundesliga's 50+1 rule

Football in Germany is popular for many reasons: top-quality play, the highest average attendances in world football, low ticket prices and a great fan culture. A major contributing factor in this is the 50+1 ownership rule. bundesliga.com takes a closer look at exactly how and why it works...

www.bundesliga.com

Genuinely interested to know if people think this is the answer... what would it mean for Wolves/Fosun if this came in... lower ticket prices... less power to the billionaires... less greed... closer ties to the club?

If you ask a Bayern fan outside the club who owns the club they say "The members, of course"

Is this the way forward or not all its cracked up to be? Is it even possible to implement in the PL and/or at Wolves?

 

[Oliwolf44]

It is the answer, for fans to be involved, but you try and tell owners who invested millions for these clubs they now have to hand over control to the fans and give up on the investment, its an absolute non-starter.

The corruption is inside the system. The fans are not.

 

[Keyser Soze]

It is the answer, for fans to be involved, but you try and tell owners who invested millions for these clubs they now have to hand over control to the fans and give up on the investment, its an absolute non-starter.

The corruption is inside the system. The fans are not.

I'm sure it would take some doing to get current owners to hand over control to fans, maybe impossible as you say (unless forced)

Just heard G Neville mention it again just now on SS

Perhaps its an unachievable dream... but would be real change

 

[Arthur]

Germany have been leading the way modern football should be developped since the early 00s, from safe standing to ticket pricing to fan ownership

 

[TooMutchBull]

I dunno, some of our fans are proper eijets. I wouldn't be comfortable with them taking majority share of a Mars bar.

I just think the owners need to be fit and proper and legislation must protect fans from franchise FC...
I think the biggest fear is always that a club will be moved, asset stripped or have its stadium sold off as land for housing. We can bare some poor footballing decisions or some dodgy catering contracts but they have to return our club in as good a state as they found it, those that don't need to be penalised.
The good owners are seen but not heard.

Accessible, good communicators but professional and able to distance themselves from footballing matters.

 

[BlahBlah]

I dunno, some of our fans are proper eijets. I wouldn't be comfortable with them taking majority share of a Mars bar.

That's why when Sir Jack mooted the idea of fan ownership, his family and the club finally came up with the idea of a Fan's Parliament without any power to legislate or determine. They banked on nobody knowing the meaning of the word parliament, and they were right !

 

[Tipton Wolves]

It will never happen. Too many big companies now have controlling stakes after ploughing money in.

 

[Bogota Wolf]

Germany have been leading the way modern football should be developped since the early 00s, from safe standing to ticket pricing to fan ownership

More importantly on more than one occasion supporting Hertha Berlin in the Olympic Stadium I was able to call a beer seller over and drink a few beers watching the match. Bliss in the sunshine... if you're winning!

 

[forge]

Yes

 

[Big Nosed Wolf]

Of course it is. No system is without issues and there are those in Germany who want to see the 50+1 changed. The facts speak for themselves though. German football has the right balance while the National team has also progressed.

We need to see government, we have after all got a minister for Sports. to get involved fully on this issue.

This wouldn't be an easy switch. Ideally fans and current investors/owners would get together with government to try and thrash out how to do it, How many current owners would be willing is the difficult bit.

Would Fosun be willing? Who knows? I suggest they might be one of the more sympathetic examples.

On the fan's side organisation is required. The FSA could be a body that could act as cheerleader.

 

[Deleted member 11332]

I see German football held up as this pillar of success but from my limited knowledge. Bayern get a huge share of the TV money which makes it impossible for other clubs to compete with them financially. Look at how many players are just hoovered up from Dortmund.

 

[WickedWolfie]

I see German football held up as this pillar of success but from my limited knowledge. Bayern get a huge share of the TV money which makes it impossible for other clubs to compete with them financially. Look at how many players are just hoovered up from Dortmund.

Yup, Bayern are the "groß ein"....

 

[jrpb-3]

the the ESL debacle has highlighted how out of touch the clubs owners have come from the fans and that all they really care about if finances. The reason they have backed down is due to it becoming clear with the unanimous condemnation across the board from fans players and governing bodies that it was no longer financially viable, not because they have suddenly seen the light and got some morals. What it has shown is that the clubs will listen, but only when forced to do so. There have been fan protests about many things in the past, (but maybe not so unanimously across the board) that have not really made any difference, this time governing bodies with powers to actually do something have forced this backing down. So yes having some fan representation at the higher decision making level within the club is maybe a way forward. Maybe some sort of cooperative/fan membership schemes that then means fans get representatives with some real power on the boards of these clubs. maybe it will need some change in regulations, by governing bodies, or even by governments to legislate that clubs have to be set up this way. What is does show is that if the fans unite and speak with one voice they can make a difference, but only if they have some power do actually do something, at the moment all we can do is vote with our wallets and not buy tickets merchandise etc. and in the past there has never been enough numbers doing this to actually make a big enough impact on the clubs for them to listen.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Anyone who thinks that the German system is the way to go needs to look at the fact its turned into a one horse race the last 10 years.

 

[Big Nosed Wolf]

Since 2000 five different clubs have won the Bundesliga. Since 2000 six different clubs have won the PL.

There has always been teams that dominate for long periods in both leagues even before the PL. Liverpool won five titles in the 70s and six in the eighties for example.

Using Bayern Munich as an example of how the Bundesliga has 'failed' doesn't stack up. The Bundesliga also has the highest average attendances in Europe. Perhaps pricing in Germany has something to do with that.

 

[Dan G WWFC]

Yes but how do you make it happen. Can't force clubs to put up most of there business up for sale

 

[WickedWolfie]

Since 2000 five different clubs have won the Bundesliga. Since 2000 six different clubs have won the PL.

There has always been teams that dominate for long periods in both leagues even before the PL. Liverpool won five titles in the 70s and six in the eighties for example.

Using Bayern Munich as an example of how the Bundesliga has 'failed' doesn't stack up. The Bundesliga also has the highest average attendances in Europe. Perhaps pricing in Germany has something to do with that.

How often does one team win a league eight years in a row though? When that happens can that league truly be said to be competitive?

What also routinely happens in Germany is that Bayern cherrypick the best players of any other team that looks like it may compete with them.

 

[WickedWolfie]

Yes but how do you make it happen. Can't force clubs to put up most of there business up for sale

Actually you can. That's exactly what competition and monopolies bodies do regularly.

 

[Big Nosed Wolf]

How often does one team win a league eight years in a row though? When that happens can that league truly be said to be competitive?

What also routinely happens in Germany is that Bayern cherrypick the best players of any other team that looks like it may compete with them.

Between 1980 and 1990 Liverpool won the first division 7 times.

Between 2000 and 2011 Man United won the PL 7 times.

Not quite the same as successive eight years but close enough.

No league has ever been 'fair'. In the history of the English League only 24 clubs have ever won it in 130ish years and some of them go back before WW1.

Bayern have dominated the Bundesliga but that isn't because of the 50+1 rule anyway.

 

[Pessimistic Wolf]

You have to be careful with schemes such as these to avoid hyperwealthy "fans" buying membership and treating it purely as an investment. I believe RB Leipzig price their membership prohibitively high, so that only already independently wealthy people can afford to buy it. This risks undermining the spirit of the scheme, which I think conceptually is a good idea.

If membership was available for a reasonable cost (proportionate to avg. wage and cost of living in WV postcodes, for example), and there was a reliable buy-back-at-cost option.

It's also worth investigating the extent to which these schemes make the league more competitive.

The 50+1 rule was introduced in 1988 in the Bundesliga, which I have compared to the introduction of the Premier League in 1992. Obviously these figures need be taken with a pinch of salt to account for the 4 year gap, and obviously myriad other variables involved, but:

Since 1988 in the Bundesliga there have been 6 different champions, contrasting with 7 different PL champions since 1992.

Werder Bremen (3)
Kaiserslautern (2)
Bayern Munich (19)
Stuttgart (2)
Dortmund (5)
Wolfsburg (1)

Worth noting that the domination of Bayern has been concentrated, as you will know, in the past decade. In the immediate years following the 50+1 rule, there was quite a lot of diversity. But on the whole, we can see that the implementation of 50+1 has done little to stop a monopoly of wealth and footballing power at the very summit of the league. There is in fact more variability among winners in the Premier League, and looking forward, it seems likely that PL winners will continue to oscillate between City, Chelsea, Man Utd and Liverpool. In the Bundesliga, it looks to remain Bayern's game, with Dortmund making a gentle inroads but probably not significantly upsetting the balance.

What I think is more interesting though, is the same data for 3rd place. This provides an insight into how competitive the top third of the table is, as sides compete to get into the Champions League (top 4 in Germany, like ourselves).

Since 1988 in the Bundesliga, there have been 14 different sides to finish 3rd place:

Leverkusen (5)
Hertha Berlin (1)
Koln (1)
Werder Bremen (6)
Frankfurt (3)
Freiburg (1)
Schalke (4)
Dortmund (3)
Hamburg (3)
Stuttgart (1)
Bayern Munich (1)
Borussia Monchengladbach (1)
Hoffenheim (1)
RB Leipzig (2)

Compared to the PL since 1992, which has had 10 different sides to finish 3rd place:

Norwich (1)
Newcastle (2)
Forest (1)
Liverpool (6)
Arsenal (6)
Chelsea (5)
Leeds (1)
Man utd (4)
City (2)
Spurs (2)

This points to a gentle trend towards greater top-third competitiveness in the Bundesliga, which may or may not be related to the 50+1 arrangement.

 

[Contrarian]

Between 1980 and 1990 Liverpool won the first division 7 times.

Between 2000 and 2011 Man United won the PL 7 times.

Not quite the same as successive eight years but close enough.

No league has ever been 'fair'. In the history of the English League only 24 clubs have ever won it in 130ish years and some of them go back before WW1.

Bayern have dominated the Bundesliga but that isn't because of the 50+1 rule anyway.

It's not because they hang on to managers, either. They've had 8 managers in 10 years.

Agree on the 50+1 rule. It has nothing to do with single club domination. For a start, it applies to all clubs, they can't all dominate! It is more to do with profits are distributed. 50+1 basically gets a better deal for fans, less profit syphoned off to the owners.

Could argue that at Champions League level, given it is the second wealthiest, German football has underperformed as their clubs are behind Spain and Italy (and England) and barely ahead of the Netherlands. Bayern are the only German club to continually challenge in European competitions. Maybe because the 50+1 rule restricts clubs ability to rake in the cash and splash out on the most expensive players needed for that level of challenge?

I've read many times, supporters of other German clubs complain about Bayern's monopoly, thay they have "fixed" all the rules for decades to benefit themselves and limit the rest. I can't find anything definite on this, though. Allegedly, the German spending rules have something to do with past success factored in as well as income, which means that, of course, Bayern can spend vastly more on wages than the rest. Like I said, though, I couldn't find the concrete evidence on this.

Overall, opinion seems to be that Bayern have been extremely well run for decades, always ahead of the trends is mentioned a few times. And they sack the manager at first sign of failing. They are ruthless, basically.

The Bundesliga would be an amazingly competitive league if only Bayern weren't in it. Maybe they should go off and form their own leaue or something?

 

[Contrarian]

BTW This article just hammers home how this is NOT how it has always been. That the monopoly of a few clubs has increased over the past decade or two. The ESL was inevitable, unless these underlying issues are dealt with.

How football became broken beyond repair

The game is going through an unprecedented period of financial and competitive imbalance. Miguel Delaney investigates how we got here and – crucially – whether the dominance of the mega-rich is here to stay

www.independent.co.uk

The "Number of different clubs finishing in the top 4" is interesting.

In England:
1990-99 13
2000-09 7
2010-19 7

They didn't go back to the 1980's, so I checked myself and 13 different clubs finished in the top 4 in the 1980's, too.

The point of this is to refute the idea that "it's always been like this". Because when you look at it, fact after fact shows this is wrong, it hasnt' always been like this. The concentration of power in the hands of a few clubs has increased. Over time, fewer clubs have a chance of success because a handful are monopolising everything.

 

[Big Nosed Wolf]

The 50+1 system has very little to do with competition or which club won what how many times. It doesn't mean there can't be enough investment from the other 49 either.

It's main aim is to keep football clubs, football clubs which cannot be hijacked by those who can only see, and only want, a vehicle for selling pop, betting sites and generally making as much money as can be squeezed out of them. Even if the sporting integrity is ****ed all over in the process.

The irony is the comparisons about 'non competitive' Bundesliga are nothing to what the 'special six' were after.If those owners haven't made too many realise just how vulnerable our football club's are nothing will.

A few teams still might dominate (which has often been the case anyway in England) either in Germany or in England but the integrity of competition remains, even if neither will be perfect.

 

[BigSteve]

Actually you can. That's exactly what competition and monopolies bodies do regularly.

It's happens rarely, other than in the context of a merger, where it's fairly common.

I don't think the competition authorities would want to touch football with a ten foot bargepole.

 

[Big Nosed Wolf]

BTW This article just hammers home how this is NOT how it has always been. That the monopoly of a few clubs has increased over the past decade or two. The ESL was inevitable, unless these underlying issues are dealt with.

How football became broken beyond repair

The game is going through an unprecedented period of financial and competitive imbalance. Miguel Delaney investigates how we got here and – crucially – whether the dominance of the mega-rich is here to stay

www.independent.co.uk

The "Number of different clubs finishing in the top 4" is interesting.

In England:
1990-99 13
2000-09 7
2010-19 7

They didn't go back to the 1980's, so I checked myself and 13 different clubs finished in the top 4 in the 1980's, too.

The point of this is to refute the idea that "it's always been like this". Because when you look at it, fact after fact shows this is wrong, it hasnt' always been like this. The concentration of power in the hands of a few clubs has increased. Over time, fewer clubs have a chance of success because a handful are monopolising everything.

We all know it's got worse since the PL. It's not great in any country anyway. If we say about 100 clubs (probably a few more) have played in English football in 130ish years only 25% of those clubs have won the top league.

So to a greater or lesser extent it has always been that way.

What we need is to put in place a league which stops any further limitations on competition.

 

[Contrarian]

We all know it's got worse since the PL. It's not great in any country anyway. If we say about 100 clubs (probably a few more) have played in English football in 130ish years only 25% of those clubs have won the top league.

So to a greater or lesser extent it has always been that way.

What we need is to put in place a league which stops any further limitations on competition.

Yes, the Premier League creation was the single biggest factor in creating the conditions for the cartel we see now.

You're right it always was that way, that article shows, to me, without doubt that it has got worse. It's like a feedback loop. The same few clubs had the money to buy top players, guaranteeing them home success and European competition eachs season, which provided them even mpore money to buy even more top players, hence guaranteeing more success...

Interesting for Arsenal though as they look like they could be the first to fall out of that cartel. I'll believe it when I see it though! I suspect "reports of their demise have been greatly exagerrated", to badly quote Mark Twain. The cost of entry has got so high, maybe Arsenal and Spurs could fall by the wayside and become members of the mere 1%, not the 0.1%.

But yes, it always was this way, though to a "lesser extant". Looking at a lot of the stats for "number of teams in top places" and so on, in England at least, it was the Premier League that triggered it. But then you have countries like Scotland that have always been uncompetitive.

By "limitations on competition", you're implying FFP? Would be interesting if that goes as it effectively prevents an unfashionable club being bought by a multi-billionaire and challenging the Sky 6, as their spending is limited. I'd guess there are a fair few billionaires who wouldn't mind a football club as their next toy.

Abstractly, there is a conflict between "regular" business - that seeks to avoid competition (OK, they won't admit it, but they are telling fibs) and a spectator sport business that needs competition else it wont exist. The situation we are in is a half way house. You could even call it "fake competition" Recently, season after season, thousands of matches played, all start on level playing field, yet at the end of it all, invariably the same 6 clubs will get the trophies and the top places. What a coincidence. Those Super-Clubs, they don't want competition - hence the ESL. But without competition, what is football?

 

[Wolfy McWolf-Face]

50+1 stops owners being able to act without the fans i.e. ESL but has done nothing to stop the one horse race that is the Bundesliga.

The issue is FFP. I understand what it should stand for but in reality it simply serves to protect the plight of the 'big clubs'. Its all well and good saying restrict spend to a % of revenue but how can the ambitious smaller sides such as ourselves drive up revenues if we are not allowed to compete financially for the top players who would add interest to our fixtures from non wolves fans globally?

The likes of Dias and Fernandes are prime examples. Players we reportedly could have signed and they were interested. FFP would have been a key reason we couldn't risk the spend yet its possible that if we had been able to spend then we would have finished much higher, had more European football and increased our revenues to grow even more and invest in further quality. As it happens we couldn't do it so we watch Man United (whom we had been matching on the pitch) and Man City stump up the cash later and benefit hugely.

The aim of FFP is to stop clubs being run into the ground and out of business and I'm all for that but it has also served to keep the 'big 6' at the top for most of the past decade.

What football needs is transfer caps and salary caps meaning that big clubs can't blow teams out of the water with crazy fees and wages. Of course they will still get most of the players that they want (initially for sure) but maybe, just maybe, some players might choose to go outside of the 'Big 6' based on expected playing time, ambition and style of play. The longer and more often this happens the the more likely teams such as ourselves might be able have a proper go at the ECL places more regularly.

Not a perfect idea but would level the playing field somewhat.

 

[Bogota Wolf]

Yup, Bayern are the "groß ein"....

I don't know about that but know that if you added 'Schw' to the 'ein' it might be applicable as my German friends refer to their investors as the Wealthy Bavarian Pig Farmers. ;-)

No offence to Schweiny!

 

[Bondi Wolf]

Yes but how do you make it happen. Can't force clubs to put up most of there business up for sale

I think that's true, also because there is no way the fans could get the money together. Company directors are there to represent the 'owners', and I believe that the fanbase of a club have as much stake in the club as the financial owners and so should be represented on the board

It could be a regulation that fans are elected to the board to get involved in decision making and have transparency on what the club is trying to do. Germany also does this for its corporations.

One long term outcome might be that this starts to change the types of people that are interested in owning a club. They would have to see it as a commitment to running a going concern rather than a money making scheme where assets can be stripped or excessive money taken out of the club.

 

[WickedWolfie]

Between 1980 and 1990 Liverpool won the first division 7 times.

Between 2000 and 2011 Man United won the PL 7 times.

Not quite the same as successive eight years but close enough.

No league has ever been 'fair'. In the history of the English League only 24 clubs have ever won it in 130ish years and some of them go back before WW1.

Bayern have dominated the Bundesliga but that isn't because of the 50+1 rule anyway.

Re your last para l wholeheartedly agree.

It's happens rarely, other than in the context of a merger, where it's fairly common.

I don't think the competition authorities would want to touch football with a ten foot bargepole.

From the noises HMG is making, the Dirty 12 have put football in play, at least in the UK....

 

[Deleted member 11332]

Since 2000 five different clubs have won the Bundesliga. Since 2000 six different clubs have won the PL.

There has always been teams that dominate for long periods in both leagues even before the PL. Liverpool won five titles in the 70s and six in the eighties for example.

Using Bayern Munich as an example of how the Bundesliga has 'failed' doesn't stack up. The Bundesliga also has the highest average attendances in Europe. Perhaps pricing in Germany has something to do with that.

It is the pricing as every match is televised over there aswell.

 

[BigSteve]

From the noises HMG is making, the Dirty 12 have put football in play, at least in the UK....

They have been pretty vocal but I think (the administration and governance of) football is one area where the government is pretty much obliged to say something but really does not want to get its hands dirty. And I'm grateful for that.

Could they strongarm the competition authorities into some kind of market investigation? Yes, probably but I don't see it myself.

 

[Dan G WWFC]

Actually you can. That's exactly what competition and monopolies bodies do regularly.

I'm all for it then, but can teams just do what Redhill done in Germany and fix to prices to buy in as loads ?

 

[Oliwolf44]

People missing the point here. People say oh bayern win everything.
Got some news for you, Wolves have not won anything for nearly 50 yrs. But in Germany clubs have won the odd DFB cup, Bundesliga, just like in the premier league.

The point is that German clubs and fans have realised they have traded in that one day winning a trophy, for living and breathing their own football club every moment of their day. I bet it makes them feel 10 foot tall walking to the stadium for games. They are a part of their club.
We're not part of Wolves really, we dont have much a say if any. (Im not having a go at wolves owners here) its the ownership model means fans have no say.
THats what being a football fan is all about, to be part of it. This petty fan tribalism in this country is probably going to ruin it. That trophy that Liverpool win, they say they couldnt do it without fans but its the players, money and managers that have done it.
Sure winning the league is great but its just one day in your life, and you remember those moments but its the love of the club and the love of football thats more important and German fans have realised that and have a genuine say and power.

Dortmund season tickets are the MOST expensive in Germany - £180
No monday night and irregular kick off times
Free travel to the game from the city

"but weve got best league in the world and Kevin De bruyne plays in it"

 

[Chris H]

50+1 stops owners being able to act without the fans i.e. ESL but has done nothing to stop the one horse race that is the Bundesliga.

The issue is FFP. I understand what it should stand for but in reality it simply serves to protect the plight of the 'big clubs'. Its all well and good saying restrict spend to a % of revenue but how can the ambitious smaller sides such as ourselves drive up revenues if we are not allowed to compete financially for the top players who would add interest to our fixtures from non wolves fans globally?

The likes of Dias and Fernandes are prime examples. Players we reportedly could have signed and they were interested. FFP would have been a key reason we couldn't risk the spend yet its possible that if we had been able to spend then we would have finished much higher, had more European football and increased our revenues to grow even more and invest in further quality. As it happens we couldn't do it so we watch Man United (whom we had been matching on the pitch) and Man City stump up the cash later and benefit hugely.

The aim of FFP is to stop clubs being run into the ground and out of business and I'm all for that but it has also served to keep the 'big 6' at the top for most of the past decade.

What football needs is transfer caps and salary caps meaning that big clubs can't blow teams out of the water with crazy fees and wages. Of course they will still get most of the players that they want (initially for sure) but maybe, just maybe, some players might choose to go outside of the 'Big 6' based on expected playing time, ambition and style of play. The longer and more often this happens the the more likely teams such as ourselves might be able have a proper go at the ECL places more regularly.

Not a perfect idea but would level the playing field somewhat.

FFP should do what it was always intended to do until the big clubs got hold of it, limit debt.

Doesn’t stop owners investment or restrict spending in anyway. It simply stops those things being done by loading a club with so much debt it’ll never clear it.

Big clubs don’t like that because they’re the ones who will be hit worst, but if it had been put in place early enough it would have helped them too.

 

[lobodelsur]

I see German football held up as this pillar of success but from my limited knowledge. Bayern get a huge share of the TV money which makes it impossible for other clubs to compete with them financially. Look at how many players are just hoovered up from Dortmund.

But ownership of a club is a separate issue from how common resources (e.g. TV money) is allocated.
Lets not conflate the two.

 

[lobodelsur]

Can't force clubs to put up most of there business up for sale

I would have thought government legislation could do exactly that.

 

[Deleted member 11332]

But ownership of a club is a separate issue from how common resources (e.g. TV money) is allocated.
Lets not conflate the two.

I concur but its linked surely? Fan ownership still hasn't tackled the main issue we have here, wealth distribution.

 

[Pengwern]

I haven't read through all of this thread, but German football stadiums rock with noise due to safe standing, ticket prices that allow working class fans to be there and supporter representation and decision-making means that the heritage of clubs is protected. %0 + 1 is definitely the way to go IMV.

 

[Oliwolf44]

This is Stuttgart fans protesting to KEEP the 50+1 rule in Germany. Stuttgart who are a big club from a big city, last winning the bundesliga in 2008 but getting relegated in 2018. This protest about keeping the rule in place was from the season they were relegated.
Do these few fans look like they are bothered about Bayern winning the league more than most clubs