Investment.

[SanFranWolf]

I’ve noticed a few comments on other threads recently mentioning that there are at least two organisations interested in injecting money into the club.

@SteveBullsKnee mentioned it again today and noted(quite rightly) that it’s public knowledge that Fosun have been looking for additional investors for a while.

I think this deserves a thread of its own, investment coming into the club could be a game changer.

Does anyone know who the potential investors are, what sort of investment we’re talking about or what their goals might be?

 

[AndyY]

I think that what was said was that two organisations were interested but negotiations did not progress.

 

[Starsky]

Do people really invest for a part share of a football club these days?

Surely they just purchase it outright?

Either way, it is badly needed.

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

Do people really invest for a part share of a football club these days?

Surely they just purchase it outright?

Either way, it is badly needed.

Palace had American investors last season they are free spending on good talent too…

 

[wwbug]

If we kept our links with Mendes it would probably be quite a good investment opportunity .
If Mendes disengaged I am not sure what would be our selling point.

 

[Hoganstolemywife]

My understanding is that we are openly looking for new investment although only on the right terms.

I've also been told there's absolutely no pressure to sell from mainland China and my instinct is that Fosun will take us public before divesting themselves of their controlling interest.

Irrespective of Mendes, Wolves are in a very strong position right now and are very investable as a team. The price is very high though (again, as I understand).

There's no shortage of interested parties but Fosun won't compromise on the price.

 

[JohnB]

If we kept our links with Mendes it would probably be quite a good investment opportunity .
If Mendes disengaged I am not sure what would be our selling point.

Debt free, established PL club, with a squad valued at 200-300m and no historic FFP restrictions to walk into.

Before we talk about Orange Chips….

 

[MattWolf]

I’ve heard that the owner of Monster drinks has been looking at investing in the club. Anyone else heard this?

 

[AndyY]

I’ve heard that the owner of Monster drinks has been looking at investing in the club. Anyone else heard this?

Only on the mix!!!

 

[Hoganstolemywife]

I’ve heard that the owner of Monster drinks has been looking at investing in the club. Anyone else heard this?

Came from Wolves rumours

 

[MattWolf]

Oh really? A mate of mine mentioned it to me but I didn’t know how true it was. If it’s off Wolves Rumours…load of rubbish

 

[wwbug]

Debt free, established PL club, with a squad valued at 200-300m and no historic FFP restrictions to walk into.

Before we talk about Orange Chips….

An investor wants to increase value or get kudos.
Wolves were in The Championship bought for £30 million and now worth 10 times that value.
That was good for Fosun - kudos and value added. . It gets more difficult from here. And less control.

 

[Darvo]

If we kept our links with Mendes it would probably be quite a good investment opportunity .
If Mendes disengaged I am not sure what would be our selling point.

Without Mendes we have no value? Lol

 

[Oldgold Wolfcub]

I’ve heard that the owner of Monster drinks has been looking at investing in the club. Anyone else heard this?

You dont mean Roger Johnson, do you?

 

[wwbug]

Without Mendes we have no value? Lol

No - without Mendes we lose our potential to ADD value , that is what an investor wants.

 

[Banks's Mild]

Debt free, established PL club, with a squad valued at 200-300m and no historic FFP restrictions to walk into.

Before we talk about Orange Chips….

The value of the squad albeit important is surely only partly relevant as you can't have a competitive premier league team without a valuable squad and unless you're very shrewd and can sell high and replace cheap on a consistent basis you will need to replace most at a similar or dearer overall squad value, and coupled with our small squad anyway you could say that money needs to be spent to get that sorted. Also the ground needs money spending on it at no doubt a reasonable expense.
We are obviously worth a lot more than when Fosun bought us but unless they are realistic with their valuation, it would be interesting to know what that is, then it could become very difficult to sell us or get someone to buy a share at an overinflated price.
This for me me is actually the problem of having such wealthy owners as it's all very well and good if they are putting money in but if they stop but are not actually in need of the money they could just sit with us on there books stagnating or worse if they want to remain stubborn about the price.
I obviously know absolutely nothing about the figures or Fosuns thinking on us going forward but hope they make a decision soon as to either really wanting us to progress further under their leadership or selling us for some profit but a a reasonable price so that someone can have a go, especially if there are genuine interested parties.
Though to be honest why anyone would want to buy a football club is beyond me as whatever income you generate these days is offset by players just wanting more and more money, but that's a separate issue.

 

[Axle]

I’ve heard that the owner of Monster drinks has been looking at investing in the club. Anyone else heard this?

Imagine the marketing opportunities with our club badge and Monster.

A match made in myocardial infarction causing energy drinks!

 

[RMNottm]

Lack of investment does make a sale an attractive option to someone wanting to invest for success.

 

[old wittonian]

Excuse my corporate ignorance but if an investor puts in £60 million how does he gain. He loses control of his money as he's in the minority. What influence does he have. Asking as I'd like to know.

 

[Flump]

Excuse my corporate ignorance but if an investor puts in £60 million how does he gain. He loses control of his money as he's in the minority. What influence does he have. Asking as I'd like to know.

Well, he'd buy x% of the club (say 20%), and then get 20% of any dividends (which would be nothing at a football club generally), and 20% of any future sale value. So if the £60 million is spent on 3 future superstars which push us on to the CL, then the club, and their 20%, would be worth a lot more. In terms of influence, he'd probably demand a seat on the board.

 

[YouGottaRaulWithIt]

Well, he'd buy x% of the club (say 20%), and then get 20% of any dividends (which would be nothing at a football club generally), and 20% of any future sale value. So if the £60 million is spent on 3 future superstars which push us on to the CL, then the club, and their 20%, would be worth a lot more. In terms of influence, he'd probably demand a seat on the board.

It's a fair comment. For a large stake they would expect to influence strategy and expect to grow the commercial revenue. Either that or use it as a prelude to buying Fosun out. But could an American investor get on with a Chinese owner?

 

[Flump]

It's a fair comment. For a large stake they would expect to influence strategy and expect to grow the commercial revenue. Either that or use it as a prelude to buying Fosun out. But could an American investor get on with a Chinese owner?

Don't we already have American investors working with (and presumably, getting on with!) Chinese owners?

 

[YouGottaRaulWithIt]

Don't we already have American investors working with (and presumably, getting on with!) Chinese owners?

Peak6- who own evil geniuses - so more esports than real football, but I take your point.

 

[Wisdomwolf]

It's a fair comment. For a large stake they would expect to influence strategy and expect to grow the commercial revenue. Either that or use it as a prelude to buying Fosun out. But could an American investor get on with a Chinese owner?

Between 2019-21, so a year of Trump and Biden each, the so called sceptical American outlook on China resulted in a trade exchange gain of $100bn. Loads of Chinese companies on the NYSE, Fosun looking to become another through Lanvin Group. Much of this is posturing and media hype inflated. Yes they aren’t the best of friends but also accept they need co-operation for reasons of self interest.

 

[JohnB]

The value of the squad albeit important is surely only partly relevant as you can't have a competitive premier league team without a valuable squad and unless you're very shrewd and can sell high and replace cheap on a consistent basis you will need to replace most at a similar or dearer overall squad value, and coupled with our small squad anyway you could say that money needs to be spent to get that sorted. Also the ground needs money spending on it at no doubt a reasonable expense.
We are obviously worth a lot more than when Fosun bought us but unless they are realistic with their valuation, it would be interesting to know what that is, then it could become very difficult to sell us or get someone to buy a share at an overinflated price.
This for me me is actually the problem of having such wealthy owners as it's all very well and good if they are putting money in but if they stop but are not actually in need of the money they could just sit with us on there books stagnating or worse if they want to remain stubborn about the price.
I obviously know absolutely nothing about the figures or Fosuns thinking on us going forward but hope they make a decision soon as to either really wanting us to progress further under their leadership or selling us for some profit but a a reasonable price so that someone can have a go, especially if there are genuine interested parties.
Though to be honest why anyone would want to buy a football club is beyond me as whatever income you generate these days is offset by players just wanting more and more money, but that's a separate issue.

Re the bottom line it reminds me of Jack Hayward who when his mates in the US/Caribbean asked him how much he made by owning Wolves could not believe the answer that it cost money - so different to the US franchise or European Super League models.

100% we need to get on top of wages/transfer fees/agent's fees - however, as Barca are showing now spending their European TV rights whilst pleading poverty that clubs focus on the today not the tomorrow and hence the ever self-propelling cycle of greed and desire (by players and their agents and by clubs and their fans).

Re value of squad - if I offered you to buy Wolves now or in the Championship for the same price of £30m which would you pick? Of course you'd pick now as you have a more valuable product - assets on the books and income stream as doing nothing and selling players would be more valuable than spend. The value has to therefore be the value of the assets (what you can sell the squad for) plus a multiple of income stream (less a proportion to reflect outgoing) plus some form of intrinsic value.

There is only ever 1 winner, 4 in the CL and 1 FA Cup Winner. However much money we or a new owner may have with FFP we have to generate income to compete - there is a ceiling which is almost impossible to sustainably break through. Whether we're backed by an Investment House like Fosun who are looking to be self-sufficient or a private wealthy owner who thinks they can spend, spend, spend each has risks to our long-term stability.

All I want for next season is some hope/optimism and to see some attacking football, a decent cup run and to be safe from relegation. Last season up until Arsenal away at half-time when we were winning, 5th in the able and then lost Semedo and the match we had an excellent season.

 

[sheffwolf]

Excuse my corporate ignorance but if an investor puts in £60 million how does he gain. He loses control of his money as he's in the minority. What influence does he have. Asking as I'd like to know.

Asking for a friend?

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Lack of investment does make a sale an attractive option to someone wanting to invest for success.

To an extent, yes.

In the extreme case, if Fosun allowed Wolves to decline to the point of relegation and Champ obscurity, then the club would once again become a sleeping giant with tremendous potential for a buyer. Conversely, Fosun would see an asset currently worth perhaps £300m, shrink into an asset worth £50-60m, so it’s hardly an attractive option for them.

As an owner, it makes little sense for Fosun to actively reduce the value of Wolves. The only rationale low/zero growth strategy, is one where minimal (ideally zero) further investment is needed to keep the club in relative PL safety, thereby sustaining or slowly growing the asset value of the club relative to the growth of other PL teams, until such time as Fosun wishes to sell for a good price. Cheap actions, self funded by the club, to improve the squad, maintain the ground, and enhance the brand can help this strategy.

If you look at Wolves since the first couple of seasons in the PL, that’s exactly what we’ve seen. That’s why I do not expect Wolves to splash new capital investment from Fosun, either on the ground or squad. Equally, it’s why I think Jeff talks about Fosun being willing to spend money - but only if it’s needed to sustain Wolves in the PL.

 

[Stratman Wolves]

To an extent, yes.

In the extreme case, if Fosun allowed Wolves to decline to the point of relegation and Champ obscurity, then the club would once again become a sleeping giant with tremendous potential for a buyer. Conversely, Fosun would see an asset currently worth perhaps £300m, shrink into an asset worth £50-60m, so it’s hardly an attractive option for them.

As an owner, it makes little sense for Fosun to actively reduce the value of Wolves. The only rationale low/zero growth strategy, is one where minimal (ideally zero) further investment is needed to keep the club in relative PL safety, thereby sustaining or slowly growing the asset value of the club relative to the growth of other PL teams, until such time as Fosun wishes to sell for a good price. Cheap actions, self funded by the club, to improve the squad, maintain the ground, and enhance the brand can help this strategy.

If you look at Wolves since the first couple of seasons in the PL, that’s exactly what we’ve seen. That’s why I do not expect Wolves to splash new capital investment from Fosun, either on the ground or squad. Equally, it’s why I think Jeff talks about Fosun being willing to spend money - but only if it’s needed to sustain Wolves in the PL.

We may have arrived at this point though. With FFP/UEFA and then the onset of COVID, pulling back the reigns on spending was entirely sensible and practical but I still don't think Jeff and Fosun realise just how fine the line is between Prem stability and the relegation rabbit hole. I don't think we are a relegation squad, but as the injuries showed last year, neglecting too much on the investment will drag the club further down.

 

[Houston Lobo]

Peak6- who own evil geniuses - so more esports than real football, but I take your point.

They’re probably in place as facilitators to a more formal arrangement. Either a percentage stake, or outright sale. This is why the rumour of some American interest that subsequently didn’t follow through was probably legit.

 

[JayStringer]

While I think the Monster rumour is made up, I do think that would the exact kind of thing that would interest Fosun. Branding crossover opportunities in a new market.

 

[Banks's Mild]

Re value of squad - if I offered you to buy Wolves now or in the Championship for the same price of £30m which would you pick? Of course you'd pick now as you have a more valuable product

I agree with most of your reply but as to your question above it would depend on what the price is now because as much as we are in a much better position and have more value now the asking price would still have to be realistic to the value. And if I'd had the money needed to own a football club I would definitely have bought us at £30 million in the championship(I thought it was £45 million but not sure) as that was a very fair price but if say just for example we are now worth £200 million and they want £300 million then it's not good value.
The other problem as an investor rather than outright buyer is possible lack of say in the spending of the investment. Would you give Shi £100 million to spend on players with him making the final decisions on who we bought because I sure as hell wouldn't.

 

[SanFranWolf]

Does anyone have any new information on new investment in the club?

I’ve seen a couple of posts saying new investment is imminent.

?

 

[Kebab Warrior]

Does anyone have any new information on new investment in the club?

I’ve seen a couple of posts saying new investment is imminent.

?

I bought the Pro away shirt. I think that covers Nunes fee.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Does anyone have any new information on new investment in the club?

I’ve seen a couple of posts saying new investment is imminent.

?

A random tweet earlier today suggested a Qatari investor was negotiating to buy 30% of the club (or maybe Fosun Sports).

 

[Wisdomwolf]

Between 2019-21, so a year of Trump and Biden each, the so called sceptical American outlook on China resulted in a trade exchange gain of $100bn. Loads of Chinese companies on the NYSE, Fosun looking to become another through Lanvin Group. Much of this is posturing and media hype inflated. Yes they aren’t the best of friends but also accept they need co-operation for reasons of self interest.

Trade between two countries increased by 100bn in the last two years. American companies are also defiant to any USA political rantings and hungry for more opportunities in China.

 

[Wisdomwolf]

Does anyone have any new information on new investment in the club?

I’ve seen a couple of posts saying new investment is imminent.

?

Qatari investors were hosted by Guo and Mendes at the game.

Confirmed by Wolves supporting journalist and now football writer.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Does anyone have any new information on new investment in the club?

I’ve seen a couple of posts saying new investment is imminent.

?

One of the tweets…

https://twitter.com/x/status/1559462512147456000

Another older one with a bit more detail…

https://twitter.com/x/status/1555481229063077890

From experience of such matters, if there is any truth to this, then those involved will almost certainly have signed confidentiality agreements to stop them talking until all parties agree to release information, which might be never, if a deal is not reached. Of course people do sometimes gossip, and those who hear snippets and haven’t signed a CA, don’t necessarily feel so compelled to stay silent.

 

[AndyY]

To an extent, yes.

In the extreme case, if Fosun allowed Wolves to decline to the point of relegation and Champ obscurity, then the club would once again become a sleeping giant with tremendous potential for a buyer. Conversely, Fosun would see an asset currently worth perhaps £300m, shrink into an asset worth £50-60m, so it’s hardly an attractive option for them.

As an owner, it makes little sense for Fosun to actively reduce the value of Wolves. The only rationale low/zero growth strategy, is one where minimal (ideally zero) further investment is needed to keep the club in relative PL safety, thereby sustaining or slowly growing the asset value of the club relative to the growth of other PL teams, until such time as Fosun wishes to sell for a good price. Cheap actions, self funded by the club, to improve the squad, maintain the ground, and enhance the brand can help this strategy.

If you look at Wolves since the first couple of seasons in the PL, that’s exactly what we’ve seen. That’s why I do not expect Wolves to splash new capital investment from Fosun, either on the ground or squad. Equally, it’s why I think Jeff talks about Fosun being willing to spend money - but only if it’s needed to sustain Wolves in the PL.

And that’s why I think the strategy may have change very recently; I think here may have been a realisation that if we sold Neves and did not get in competition/ cover in other key positions there was a chance that we might be in a relegation scrap, and if that had come to pass then Fosun would have lost a lot of the paper value gained.
There’s a £100M plus of TV money each year so I think Fosun have decided to invest again to keep us in the “Promised land”.

 

[Ned]

Did all the “self sustaining club” goals come about as a result of the Chinese government withdrawing their support of Chinese firms investing heavily abroad? It seems that all of a sudden they are encouraging it again and we magically have money to spend. Clearly the club weren’t going to mention anything of the sort but I’m wondering now.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

For anyone interested in football club debt, there is an interesting article in the Athletic. Focused mainly on Man Utd, and how the Glazers used loans to buy Man Utd, and this debt was passed to the club and remains on Utd’s balance sheet. Unlike the soft loan Wolves had with Fosun (since written off), this is a commercial loan with the club paying the interest charges. To put it into perspective, in the first five years they owned Man Utd, the interest on those loans cost the club a third if it’s revenue. Having since refinanced, the interest burden is less now, but 500m of that original debt remains unpaid. The Glazers and their backers have done very well out of their purchase of Man Utd. Not only is the club worth far more now than what they paid, but they have extracted a lot of money from the club:-

“After all, the Glazers have earned at least £500million in dividends, fees, share sales and soft loans from United since 2006.”

Explained: Football is awash with debt - but not all of it is bad

Barcelona, Manchester United and Tottenham all have huge debt - but clearly, not all of it is equal

theathletic.com