Hunter-Gatherers

[Pengwern]

An interesting article here:

How hunter-gatherers maintained their egalitarian ways - Peter Gray

Suggests that cooperation has been practiced by human beings for tens of thousands of years, a lot longer than the capitalist competitiveness which is often taken to reflect human nature.

 

[Ulfhednar]

Excellent thanks for posting that, very interesting gone in my favourites.

It seems it's not nurture though, it appears to have been a stage in the evolution of our nature, it takes more dopamine to settle and farm so it's unlikely you can nurture farmer types to be easy going liberals like hunters.

Hunter vs. farmer hypothesis - Wikipedia

The defining trait in hunter gatherers is they're nomadic, like Gypsies whose culture closely resembles the description in your link.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Just tentatively I'd say the size of society is the issue. You see someone starving in a group of 30 everyone chips in, someone is starving is a group of 3million it's someone else's problem, their own fault, out of sight out of mind etc.

 

[Pengwern]

Just tentatively I'd say the size of society is the issue. You see someone starving in a group of 30 everyone chips in, someone is starving is a group of 3million it's someone else's problem, their own fault, out of sight out of mind etc.

That's why we need a society in which small groups of say neighbours work on local projects together, have a degree of mutual independence and take collective political responsibility for what goes on on their area. Capitalist society is about the mass and their exploitation and rule from afar by people they never meet and who they probably haven't heard of.

 

[GY Wolf]

That's why we need a society in which small groups of say neighbours work on local projects together, have a degree of mutual independence and take collective political responsibility for what goes on on their area. Capitalist society is about the mass and their exploitation and rule from afar by people they never meet and who they probably haven't heard of.

We need anarchism!

 

[Deleted member 3604]

Socialism as a human characteristic/trait is distinguishable when the value is set and not harmonised. The value gets monetarised and the natural hierarchy gets replaced and becomes false - it becomes a tool of control. This conflict then results in idealised Socialism and resentment, hypocrisy and authoritarianism .. YES, we need anarchy .

 

[Pengwern]

Socialism as a human characteristic/trait is distinguishable when the value is set and not harmonised. The value gets monetarised and the natural hierarchy gets replaced and becomes false - it becomes a tool of control. This conflict then results in idealised Socialism and resentment, hypocrisy and authoritarianism .. YES, we need anarchy .

Whoa! Let's break this down a bit so I can grasp what you are saying here?

'Value is set and not harmonised'. Does this mean the value is unchanging except for diktat from a central committee or Dictator? What does 'harmonised' refer to? What should value be harmonised with?

'The value gets monetarised' - does this mean anything beyond the need for any society to have a medium of exchange?

'The natural hierarchy' - who is this and what is natural about it?

What is 'false' about the new as against the old hierarchy?

What is 'idealised Socialism' as opposed to any other kind?

What generates the resentment and hypocrisy you refer to?

What processes make the authoritarianism of which you speak inevitable?

Why do you define Socialism as a trait or characteristic rather than a social system arising out of political philosophers and political economists outlining and recommending it as a better way to organise and structure human society?

What do you see as the main differences between socialism / communism as against anarchism?

These are not meant to be trick questions - I actually do want to get to the bottom of how you understand these things!!!!

 

[Pengwern]

Excellent thanks for posting that, very interesting gone in my favourites.

It seems it's not nurture though, it appears to have been a stage in the evolution of our nature, it takes more dopamine to settle and farm so it's unlikely you can nurture farmer types to be easy going liberals like hunters.

Hunter vs. farmer hypothesis - Wikipedia

The defining trait in hunter gatherers is they're nomadic, like Gypsies whose culture closely resembles the description in your link.

A very long stage and one which is ongoing in some indigenous societies in the world, so I think it is only overlooked because of the scanty knowledge of pre history and anthropology until the twentieth century and the huge influence of ideas that were useful in supporting the view that we are all basically and naturally competitors. Have you ever read 'Settlers, Nomads and Warriors', which argues that human kind contains people who are primarily one of these three types?

I am not sure what the evidence is for your approach to all this, which is about brain chemistry, it seems to me. I'm not sure whether you are argue that different chemical balances in brains arise from or cause how particular groups of people have related to their environment.

 

[Big Nosed Wolf]

His summary tells us nothing we didn't already know. In fact his three 'lessons' of,

(a) find ways to deflate the egos, rather than support the egos, of the despots, bullies and braggarts among us
(b) make our ways of life more playful
(c) raise our children in kindly, trusting ways

are all alive and well in the majority of families here in the good old UK. In fact all three of the above applied to my own upbringing. Including his other reference to neighbour's being treated with respect and in peace, while sharing when necessary without ever taking advantage of goodwill gestures. More 'owing' them one in return.

Was this piece a funded bit of research? If so I wonder how much? Whatever the cost was it worth it?

 

[Ulfhednar]

A very long stage and one which is ongoing in some indigenous societies in the world, so I think it is only overlooked because of the scanty knowledge of pre history and anthropology until the twentieth century and the huge influence of ideas that were useful in supporting the view that we are all basically and naturally competitors. Have you ever read 'Settlers, Nomads and Warriors', which argues that human kind contains people who are primarily one of these three types?

I am not sure what the evidence is for your approach to all this, which is about brain chemistry, it seems to me. I'm not sure whether you are argue that different chemical balances in brains arise from or cause how particular groups of people have related to their environment.

It's brain chemistry as per that link, genetics is showing that ADHD is the hunter gatherer personality type, and ADHD occurs when people have less dopamine. They tend be intuitive & empathic, which may account for them having such fair communities. Natives Great Plains American's, Aborigines, & Gypsies have a massively high propensity for ADHD, the lowest propensity is in South East Asia where humans have been settled the longest (due to naturally cultivating rice and paddy fields).

There are apparently 7 different types of ADHD (that they can observe on brain activity imaging scans), some are definitely aggressive. Maybe they represent different evolution's off the same thing (with farmers being another evolution and the majority). Lots of nomadic / ADHD (effectively hunter gatherer or evolution's off it) cultures have been warring, like the Hun, Norse, & Mongol.

 

[Pengwern]

It's brain chemistry as per that link, genetics is showing that ADHD is the hunter gatherer personality type, and ADHD occurs when people have less dopamine. They tend be intuitive & empathic, which may account for them having such fair communities. Natives Great Plains American's, Aborigines, & Gypsies have a massively high propensity for ADHD, the lowest propensity is in South East Asia where humans have been settled the longest (due to naturally cultivating rice and paddy fields).

There are apparently 7 different types of ADHD (that they can observe on brain activity imaging scans), some are definitely aggressive. Maybe they represent different evolution's off the same thing (with farmers being another evolution and the majority). Lots of nomadic / ADHD (effectively hunter gatherer or evolution's off it) cultures have been warring, like the Hun, Norse, & Mongol.

Citing more of this doesn't make it true! ADHD is linked with autism, which does not figure well in producing empathy. You still have not told me if you see brain chemistry as cause or effect.

 

[Ulfhednar]

Citing more of this doesn't make it true! ADHD is linked with autism, which does not figure well in producing empathy. You still have not told me if you see brain chemistry as cause or effect.

The genetic evidence shows it's likely the case. Only some ADHD types are Asperger leaning, and not in respect of empathy. It's been concluded by experts Syd Barrett (Pink Floyds famous drop out) was Asperger leaning and ADHD, he was all intuition and his art is all empathy. Maybe autism is another evolution off the core model (the core model being one of the versions of ADHD).

I would guess the brain chemistry and environment went hand in hand. So gathering became settled and those with the most dopamine were best at making the most of being still, had the most kids, those with slightly more dopamine did better again etc.

 

[Deleted member 3604]

The genetic evidence shows it's likely the case. Only some ADHD types are Asperger leaning, and not in respect of empathy. It's been concluded by experts Syd Barrett (Pink Floyds famous drop out) was Asperger leaning and ADHD, he was all intuition and his art is all empathy. Maybe autism is another evolution off the core model (the core model being one of the versions of ADHD).

I would guess the brain chemistry and environment went hand in hand. So gathering became settled and those with the most dopamine were best at making the most of being still, had the most kids, those with slightly more dopamine did better again etc.

But high levels of dopamine are not necessarily dependant on biology. I'm inclined to see mental states as being adaptive in some circumstances. Hunting and gathering may be loosely connected to being introvert and extrovert which again may be dependant on environment and conditioning.

 

[Pengwern]

I think 'genetic evidence' is overrated, as it doesn't link and has not been linked academically, as far as I am aware, to anthropology or archaeology or to the other sciences which pre-historical study has used to establish the reality of hunter-gatherer society. unless and until it does so, we cannot assess its value. it is certainly NOT a stand-alone explanation.