Give fans a vote on VAR

[Zico]

As has been mentioned on the verdict thread, one of the best things about last night was not having VAR faffing around. Ref said no penalty? It's no penalty. Ball in the net? Quick check on the ref and linesman, it's a goal.

Now I know the opposing view is that it's better to get things right. But firstly, VAR isn't doing that, and second, after several years of it now, I don't think that argument holds water.

There was much made during lockdown of the fact that football is nothing without the fans. I believe it's time for the fans at the grounds to have a chance to make their views known. Give the opportunity for there to be one home match for every Premier League club where the fans can cast their vote - keep it, and put up with the delays, or scrap it, and put up with any "clear and obvious errors" that happen.

This isn't to devalue the opinions of fans who can't get to the game. But it would be very difficult to fairly canvas opinion any other way, and I do think that it's those at the games who are having the joy sucked out of them by this ridiculous charade. Give us a say, and let us have the chance to bin it.

 

[Derbywolf85]

Far, far, far to much money to be pushed in to the hands of the bigger clubs to be concerned with what fans think. They need to keep the normal top 6 in the top 6. That's their agenda.

 

[Olivergoldblack]

Yep absolutely ruined the game. Was refreshing last night when one of their guys went down in the box and the ref just waved it away instantly, but automatically I was getting paranoid VAR would spend 5 minutes looking at 10 camera angles and slowing down the video so someone could affect the game narrative.

 

[WickedWolfie]

As has been mentioned on the verdict thread, one of the best things about last night was not having VAR faffing around. Ref said no penalty? It's no penalty. Ball in the net? Quick check on the ref and linesman, it's a goal.

Now I know the opposing view is that it's better to get things right. But firstly, VAR isn't doing that, and second, after several years of it now, I don't think that argument holds water.

There was much made during lockdown of the fact that football is nothing without the fans. I believe it's time for the fans at the grounds to have a chance to make their views known. Give the opportunity for there to be one home match for every Premier League club where the fans can cast their vote - keep it, and put up with the delays, or scrap it, and put up with any "clear and obvious errors" that happen.

This isn't to devalue the opinions of fans who can't get to the game. But it would be very difficult to fairly canvas opinion any other way, and I do think that it's those at the games who are having the joy sucked out of them by this ridiculous charade. Give us a say, and let us have the chance to bin it.

Given that FIFA have mandated it internationally you have no chance mate. I feel and share your frustration though.

 

[Frank Lincoln]

I can't speak for others, but if I had my way then VAR would be scrapped immediately. Sadly that won't happen and fans views on this will not be taken into consideration.

 

[GoldenHorseshoe]

I can't speak for others, but if I had my way then VAR would be scrapped immediately. Sadly that won't happen and fans views on this will not be taken into consideration.

I agree, but you also need to improve the level of refereeing and get rid of the bias.
The (appearance at least) of bias has not been removed by VAR, but has been reinforced by it.

 

[Alex Rae The Substitute]

Get rid of VAR, awful addition to the game.

On Saturday I barely celebrated Guedes goal because from where I was (J10) he looked offside, and I anticipated an inevitable check. It used to be a quick glance to the linesman, he’s not flagged, go nuts!

It’s ruined the match day enjoyment of football.

 

[Zico]

Given that FIFA have mandated it internationally you have no chance mate. I feel and share your frustration though.

Are you sure about that? FIFA have to give permission, I'm not aware that it's mandatory but happy to be corrected if wrong.

 

[Peszkywolf]

VAR is a bit like brexit, an interesting idea to a problem, noone wants to talk about how badly it's going and should be reversed.
You just don't feel like celebrating and people absolutely ****ing hate it. The armchair supporters like it, but that isn't as passionate as when you're at a match. Ball hits the back of the net, do a bit of a fist pump, then it's sort of interesting seeing lines go up or 10 repeats from different angles. Anyone who says it works or just needs adjusting obviously doesn't go to live games.

 

[bod101]

i would be happy with VAR if it was used correctly, that is basically the problem with it.

 

[manchesterwolf17]

Nothing will change until broadcasters turn against it. Which isn't going to happen.

4 years or so it's been polluting the game and you'll do well to find a single pundit or reference to what VAR does to celebrating a goal. That's 99.99999% of the problem with it. **** how long it takes or not hearing what they're discussing, ambiguous calls, lack of consistency. Yes, they're annoying, but real fans know why they hate it and yet that's never even discussed.

Utter poison it is.

 

[manchesterwolf17]

i would be happy with VAR if it was used correctly, that is basically the problem with it.

It really isn't.

The greatest version of VAR imaginable would still categorically ruin football and the joy of celebrating a goal. It's impossible for it not to. I'm sick of hearing otherwise.

 

[Beastier]

If used as it was billed for "clear & obvious" errors then I believe it has a place. However none of us anticipated several minutes of reviews for offsides, dubious handballs, etc which results in it sucking the life out of the game.

Other than the teams that potentially profit in the moment, I don't know many football fans that feels VAR is a good idea in the current manner it's used - as more than one poster has alluded to, we are now at the point where we are hesitant to properly celebrate goals - which is the pivotal moment that we get to enjoy when watching football.

 

[manchesterwolf17]

If used as it was billed for "clear & obvious" errors then I believe it has a place. However none of us anticipated several minutes of reviews for offsides, dubious handballs, etc which results in it sucking the life out of the game.

Other than the teams that potentially profit in the moment, I don't know many football fans that feels VAR is a good idea in the current manner it's used - as more than one poster has alluded to, we are now at the point where we are hesitant to properly celebrate goals - which is the pivotal moment that we get to enjoy when watching football.

I remember watching one of the early trial games they used it in during an FA Cup match. It was Spurs against Rochdale I think. Anyway, Spurs had a goal ruled out for the slightest of pushes during the build up. Right then I knew what it was going to be like. As soon as you give them an inch they take the rest.

So much of what football now is centers around officials and VAR. It's so unfulfilling to watch. If you take the Premier League - There is around a dozen sides with very little between them. I'd include Wolves in that. So where once the percentages that separated aforementioned teams would rest on aspects like set pieces etc. They now rely on VAR decisions.

Even when it goes your way. Who really enjoys what happened on Saturday? Even when the penalty is given I feel empty. It's just not the reason you fall in love with sport.

Effectively what the presence of VAR does is make you question almost everything you watch in the game as reality. Particularly significant moments. Because so much of what initially happens is taken away or altered. I don't care if it works in other sports. It doesn't in football. It completely taints/ruins the times that should be joyous and will never stop doing so.

 

[Peszkywolf]

When it was being discussed I was wary but thought ok if it's clear and obvious wrong decisions then I could live with it, so that would be maybe 1 or 2 decisions a season, sort of fixed within 5 seconds after one look at a replay while the balls being picked out the net.

And it's nothing like that. Really puts me off the professional game and will to a lot going to watch Stourbridge for half the price where you can celebrate without thinking it's going to be rescinded by some subjective decision in a TV room other than the subjective decision by the ref.

Just accept that football isn't perfect, grow up, and give us our sport back.

 

[bod101]

It really isn't.

The greatest version of VAR imaginable would still categorically ruin football and the joy of celebrating a goal. It's impossible for it not to. I'm sick of hearing otherwise.

apart from that's not true, if a late flag goes up without VAR you still have to cut your celebration.

it just needs to be used properly, clear and obvious to mean clear and obvious, if you cant see the mistake at stockley park in real time without lines on the pitch then it isnt an off side. Same goes for any other issue likes handball that briefly touch an upper arm etc.

and it should be up to the ref to make the decision if it needs overturning

 

[oldgoldheart]

I said before it came in that mistakes are ok. They still make mistakes. I would scrap it and just play a game like we used to. In the moment, mistakes and all. But its here now and will only get more intrusive

 

[manchesterwolf17]

apart from that's not true, if a late flag goes up without VAR you still have to cut your celebration.

it just needs to be used properly, clear and obvious to mean clear and obvious, if you cant see the mistake at stockley park in real time without lines on the pitch then it isnt an off side. Same goes for any other issue likes handball that briefly touch an upper arm etc.

and it should be up to the ref to make the decision if it needs overturning

But even legitimate goals are ruined by the thought of the unknown. I could see on Saturday that Guedes was onside but I guarantee plenty of others couldn't. I also guarantee the majority of fans inside the ground whenever a goal goes in have in the back of their mind that something might be pulled up. The second that enters your mind the moment is tainted. And how can it not go through a fans head when so often things are brought back.

Before you knew within seconds that a goal wasn't going to stand, so that aspect is nowhere near the same as it is now.

For me this just outweighs everything else so much.

 

[Jefe]

A happy medium would a Tennis style challenge system.

 

[manchesterwolf17]

A happy medium would a Tennis style challenge system.

But relatively speaking very few significant moments ever happen in football matches, so it would still just be used for virtually the same things. And teams would just take a punt. Concede a last minute winner, ahh we'll use our challenge just in case. As fans sit in the ground wondering. It's just crap. The Spurs goal last week against Sporting encapsulated VAR in a nutshell.

 

[wwfc9]

I remember watching one of the early trial games they used it in during an FA Cup match. It was Spurs against Rochdale I think. Anyway, Spurs had a goal ruled out for the slightest of pushes during the build up. Right then I knew what it was going to be like. As soon as you give them an inch they take the rest.

So much of what football now is centers around officials and VAR. It's so unfulfilling to watch. If you take the Premier League - There is around a dozen sides with very little between them. I'd include Wolves in that. So where once the percentages that separated aforementioned teams would rest on aspects like set pieces etc. They now rely on VAR decisions.

Even when it goes your way. Who really enjoys what happened on Saturday? Even when the penalty is given I feel empty. It's just not the reason you fall in love with sport.

Effectively what the presence of VAR does is make you question almost everything you watch in the game as reality. Particularly significant moments. Because so much of what initially happens is taken away or altered. I don't care if it works in other sports. It doesn't in football. It completely taints/ruins the times that should be joyous and will never stop doing so.

Var in rugby cricket and tennis is much more akin to goal line technology than var in football in most instances , has a try crosses the line , was the tennis ball in or out , is the batter out or not , we didn’t need all this crap and those sports are all stop start anyway so doesn’t disrupt it much , plus decisions are still made much quicker in those sports …

 

[manchesterwolf17]

Var in rugby cricket and tennis is much more akin to goal line technology than var in football in most instances , has a try crosses the line , was the tennis ball in or out , is the batter out or not , we didn’t need all this crap and those sports are all stop start anyway so doesn’t disrupt it much , plus decisions are still made much quicker in those sports …

Spot on. There's next to no ambiguity or debate with those calls.

 

[Parkfieldswolf]

As has been mentioned on the verdict thread, one of the best things about last night was not having VAR faffing around. Ref said no penalty? It's no penalty. Ball in the net? Quick check on the ref and linesman, it's a goal.

Now I know the opposing view is that it's better to get things right. But firstly, VAR isn't doing that, and second, after several years of it now, I don't think that argument holds water.

There was much made during lockdown of the fact that football is nothing without the fans. I believe it's time for the fans at the grounds to have a chance to make their views known. Give the opportunity for there to be one home match for every Premier League club where the fans can cast their vote - keep it, and put up with the delays, or scrap it, and put up with any "clear and obvious errors" that happen.

This isn't to devalue the opinions of fans who can't get to the game. But it would be very difficult to fairly canvas opinion any other way, and I do think that it's those at the games who are having the joy sucked out of them by this ridiculous charade. Give us a say, and let us have the chance to bin it.

Any opportunity to bin it and I’m in but sadly I think it’s here to stay as it helps the big boys out so often.

 

[Jefe]

But relatively speaking very few significant moments ever happen in football matches, so it would still just be used for virtually the same things. And teams would just take a punt. Concede a last minute winner, ahh we'll use our challenge just in case. As fans sit in the ground wondering. It's just crap. The Spurs goal last week against Sporting encapsulated VAR in a nutshell.

You would of course give each manager a small number of appeals, which would curtail frivolous punts. A manager isn't going to query a goal that didn't look offside if he only has two challenges for the whole game, and they're only 20 minutes in. He probably wouldn't even see that the ball brushed the arm of a midfielder ten passes ago in the build up for a goal, like Stockley Park currently can.

It could become interesting tactically how well canny and less impulsive managers use their appeals. It would also need the "clear and obvious error" standard to be abolished and for the referee to be the only official involved. So while you wouldn't eliminate the problems of VAR entirely, you would theoretically restrict them to the actual flash-points in the match, not just as the self-indulgent toy for officials that it currently is.

 

[Peszkywolf]

Think Sky TV with their 24 hour analysing over every decision has caused this. But those analysts don't have to watch the games at grounds wondering whether every time the ball hits the back of the net if it'll be ruled out. It's killed the immediacy/spontaneity of the game.

 

[Peszkywolf]

You would of course give each manager a small number of appeals, which would curtail frivolous punts. A manager isn't going to query a goal that didn't look offside if he only has two challenges for the whole game, and they're only 20 minutes in. He probably wouldn't even see that the ball brushed the arm of a midfielder ten passes ago in the build up for a goal, like Stockley Park currently can.

It could become interesting tactically how well canny and less impulsive managers use their appeals. It would also need the "clear and obvious error" standard to be abolished and for the referee to be the only official involved. So while you wouldn't eliminate the problems of VAR entirely, you would theoretically restrict them to the actual flash-points in the match, not just as the self-indulgent toy for officials that it currently is.

So you'd be happy for clear and obvious decisions to let stand knowing that there could be a more clear and obvious chance in the 89th minute?

 

[WKFWolf]

It's the reason I've stopped going to top flight matches. Ruined the experience, can't ever celebrate a goal again anymore

 

[WickedWolfie]

Are you sure about that? FIFA have to give permission, I'm not aware that it's mandatory but happy to be corrected if wrong.

It isn't mandatory, l agree. I may be wrong but l suspect that having once given permission for VAR to be used in the PL FIFA would also have to give permission to cease using it. The chances of them doing so for a top league? Zilch l would have thought.

 

[manchesterwolf17]

Heard Sean Dyche on Talk Sport earlier say that as a manager from a business perspective VAR is a grateful addition, but as a entertainment aspect it was way better before.

 

[Jefe]

So you'd be happy for clear and obvious decisions to let stand knowing that there could be a more clear and obvious chance in the 89th minute?

What I meant is the "clear and obvious error" standard currently held by VAR, in which a ref can give a penalty and VAR typically don't see a clear and obvious error, or he could decide not to give a penalty for an identical situation and VAR... also don't see a clear and obvious error - like Schrodinger's penalty. Therefore, VAR is effectively pointless when it comes to subjective calls like penalties and red cards. A challenge system would require a referee to reassess an incident with virgin eyes.

In other sports with challenge systems, if a manager sees what he thinks if an error by a ref, he gets to keep the same number of challenges if he is correct, but loses one if he is wrong. Therefore the manager has to think carefully about challenging a decision. A limited challenge system would bring the game much closer to the enjoyment of pre-VAR days, but give managers some tools to combat officiating errors.

 

[Direwolf]

It really isn't.

The greatest version of VAR imaginable would still categorically ruin football and the joy of celebrating a goal. It's impossible for it not to. I'm sick of hearing otherwise.

Absolutely right it's use is subjective and retrospective and this is ruining the game. No amount of tinkering is going to make it work.

 

[Olivergoldblack]

A happy medium would a Tennis style challenge system.

lol can you imagine. Your holding out for a result and you've used all your time wasting subs up - why hello there my 3 VAR challenges I haven't used yet.....

 

[manchesterwolf17]

Absolutely right it's use is subjective and retrospective and this is ruining the game. No amount of tinkering is going to make it work.

That final sentence is what some people just can't seem to appreciate. It doesn't matter how much it improves, that will never go away. It absolutely baffles me that there's a single fan out there who regularly attends games and doesn't feel what VAR's presence and existence alone does to the joy of goals. Hearing what officials are discussing, speeding the decisions up etc is not going to change that one iota I'm afraid.

 

[Jefe]

lol can you imagine. Your holding out for a result and you've used all your time wasting subs up - why hello there my 3 VAR challenges I haven't used yet.....

Easy answer - stop the watch for each challenge, and not use some arbitrary number they currently pluck out of the air for injury time.
I'd be amazed if a manager hadn't used at least one of his challenges in your average PL match by the 90th minute.

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

Far, far, far to much money to be pushed in to the hands of the bigger clubs to be concerned with what fans think. They need to keep the normal top 6 in the top 6. That's their agenda.

It's much easier to do that without VAR.

VAR has brough much more fairness. Despite what people say, there will never be an offside goal again.

I get the celebration argument but I disagree. In theory it's right but, on the whole, fans continue to celebrate crazily despite what people say.

 

[steve vena]

It was bought in to stop cheating/ diving etc wasn't it ? That's got worse. Goal line technology is fine , ditch the rest.

 

[WickedWolfie]

What I meant is the "clear and obvious error" standard currently held by VAR, in which a ref can give a penalty and VAR typically don't see a clear and obvious error, or he could decide not to give a penalty for an identical situation and VAR... also don't see a clear and obvious error - like Schrodinger's penalty. Therefore, VAR is effectively pointless when it comes to subjective calls like penalties and red cards. A challenge system would require a referee to reassess an incident with virgin eyes.

In other sports with challenge systems, if a manager sees what he thinks if an error by a ref, he gets to keep the same number of challenges if he is correct, but loses one if he is wrong. Therefore the manager has to think carefully about challenging a decision. A limited challenge system would bring the game much closer to the enjoyment of pre-VAR days, but give managers some tools to combat officiating errors.

Re your last para l was watching the Rugby League World Cup (l know, but the other options were even worse!) and they had a Captain's challenge. Each Captain has a single challenge. If used successfully the right to use it again is retained. If used wrongly then tough... That seemed a reasonable compromise to me. Of course the problem is that you would still be asking PGMOL at Stockley Park to assess PGMOL on pitch decision-making.

 

[VancouverWolf]

The idea that fans would be allowed to vote on VAR is fantasy. The Powers That Be know which way the vote would go.
May as well start a thread on the price of turnips in Japan.

 

[Jefe]

VAR has brough much more fairness. Despite what people say, there will never be an offside goal again.

Thing is, fans don't care about marginal offsides, because the average fan has far more common sense than any football official. If a striker's pinky toe or his armpit hair has strayed a centimeter offside, he has not gained any material advantage and everyone understands that - we want to give the attacking team the impetus because it leads to more entertainment and goals. That's something that transcends the binary nature of the rules, and is what the officialdom simply doesn't get.

I knew VAR offside was broken when Patrick Bamford scored, but was adjudged offside because he pointed to where he wanted the pass, and therefore his arm above the sleeve was offside. Or when Neto was running back from an offside position (i.e. he was onside when he received the ball).

If that's the law, the law is indeed an ass.

 

[Jefe]

Re your last para l was watching the Rugby League World Cup (l know, but the other options were even worse!) and they had a Captain's challenge. Each Captain has a single challenge. If used successfully the right to use it again is retained. If used wrongly then tough... That seemed a reasonable compromise to me. Of course the problem is that you would still.be asking PGMOL at Stockley Park to assess PGMOL on pitch decision-making.

Would evict everyone from Stockley Park and leave it to rack and ruin as a testament. No reason why the manager can't ask the referee, and he alone goes over to the monitor to decide, with no other officials in his ear. The only other people in the loop should be someone clipping the footage for him.