Gary O'Neil - tactics

[AndyY]

What i dont understand though, is why we often seem to get bullied in the second half after largely excellent first half performances, why is that?

 

[Minimalist]

I thought it worked better putting Lemina back in his more usual position and having Doyle fill in in the more advanced left side position.

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

What i dont understand though, is why we often seem to get bullied in the second half after largely excellent first half performances, why is that?

Is it the lack of subs?

Every other side generally has 3/4/5 good options to come on. We don't.

 

[gullykular]

This is the type of stuff that makes me think how did you come up with that?

1) Playing quick isn't a thing. Playing at a higher passing tempo in your own third can get you up the pitch quicker, City and Arsenal do this. Liverpool play a higher tempo passing game in the final third as well to try and tease teams into making a mistake by pulling players out of position and exploiting the space with fresh runners and angled runs. All 3 teams use a change of pace to unsettle defenders. GoN had that with Cunha, Hwang, Neto as his front 3.

2) GoN tactics of playing slowly deeper is to do two things, firstly it means our 'set plays in possession' (not set pieces) can be recycled to see if the opposition have a tactical weakness and secondly to draw the opposition onto the ball carrier to then exploit the space they leave behind.

GoN's counter attacks are mainly done at pace this way and his style is running with the ball, like Klopp's teams in the gegenpress, rather than hitting long direct balls (a la Warnock).

We have shown this slow passing system does not work for us and I have no idea why he persists with it. We are far better on the front foot using the higher tempo passing to get up the pitch and control tempo that way, we have won a lot of games this way from October. Currently setting us up to try and not concede and play on the counter isn't working and he needs to stop it and trust his players to get a higher tempo again.

FWIW, I work with a Bournemouth fan and he said GoN did similar with them last season when they had injuries.

For ‘playing quick’ insert playing direct then. The point I’m making is you don’t play the ball into Sarabia on a counter because he barely has the pace to run into open space let alone beat a man 1v1, especially if the loss of possession is likely to catch us out on transition.

You have to work to the profile of player you have on the pitch, hence why our passing has slowed down, in order to work out channels to play through - think RAN’s 1v1 against Burnley. You can move the ball as quick as you like but there has to be a natural instinct within the forward line to combine well and the technical aptitude to make it happen. We haven’t got all of those boxes ticked right now.

You’ve said nothing that contradicts what I’ve said so I’ve no idea why you’re so confused?.

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

Is it the lack of subs?

Every other side generally has 3/4/5 good options to come on. We don't.

When do we ever use subs early enough though? We leave it to late mostly.

 

[AndyY]

Is it the lack of subs?

Every other side generally has 3/4/5 good options to come on. We don't.

i dont think it is, we were guilty of poor second half performances from the start of the season, when we had subs. And lack of subs does not explain why many teams get at us straight from the half time restart and put us under pressure that we dont seem to recover from.

 

[Rubberball]

For ‘playing quick’ insert playing direct then. The point I’m making is you don’t play the ball into Sarabia on a counter because he barely has the pace to run into open space let alone beat a man 1v1, especially if the loss of possession is likely to catch us out on transition.

You have to work to the profile of player you have on the pitch, hence why our passing has slowed down, in order to work out channels to play through - think RAN’s 1v1 against Burnley. You can move the ball as quick as you like but there has to be a natural instinct within the forward line to combine well and the technical aptitude to make it happen. We haven’t got all of those boxes ticked right now.

You’ve said nothing that contradicts what I’ve said so I’ve no idea why you’re so confused?.

Playing direct wouldn't isolate your attackers 1v1 though.

My aim wasn't to contradict more explain what I think we do which is very different to your explanation above.

I'd like to know how you came up with it, genuinely. Watching games back and analysing stats, which stats and how do they work with you searching games?

Is it confirmation bias or some kind of objective tactical analysis?

Genuine curious as it's good to know where folks come from. We all see things differently.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Playing direct wouldn't isolate your attackers 1v1 though.

My aim wasn't to contradict more explain what I think we do which is very different to your explanation above.

I'd like to know how you came up with it, genuinely. Watching games back and analysing stats, which stats and how do they work with you searching games?

Is it confirmation bias or some kind of objective tactical analysis?

Genuine curious as it's good to know where folks come from. We all see things differently.

Why doesn't playing quickly create 1v1s though? Burnley for example were quite extreme I thought in leaving themselves 1 against 1 when they were pressing us. I don't know if they'd have done that anyway, but against Sarabia and Chiwome they coped with us very comfortably, I don't think it would have looked like that with Neto and Cunha?

 

[gullykular]

Why doesn't playing quickly create 1v1s though? Burnley for example were quite extreme I thought in leaving themselves 1 against 1 when they were pressing us. I don't know if they'd have done that anyway, but against Sarabia and Chiwome they coped with us very comfortably, I don't think it would have looked like that with Neto and Cunha?

Unless they were chasing the game, I highly doubt they’d have left Neto with Esteve alone, like you say.

 

[gullykular]

Playing direct wouldn't isolate your attackers 1v1 though.

My aim wasn't to contradict more explain what I think we do which is very different to your explanation above.

I'd like to know how you came up with it, genuinely. Watching games back and analysing stats, which stats and how do they work with you searching games?

Is it confirmation bias or some kind of objective tactical analysis?

Genuine curious as it's good to know where folks come from. We all see things differently.

I post videos nearly every week. I plan to do another this week to highlight our issues without our first choice forward line and how it impacts our defence.

I’ll be sure to explain what I mean regarding playing direct. just for you

Otherwise feel free to indulge

Gully's Tactical Analysis

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLreZiNTE-Hs4kA__ElySzhMTiZVakbN_m

 

[Rubberball]

I post videos nearly every week. I plan to do another this week to highlight our issues without our first choice forward line and how it impacts our defence.

I’ll be sure to explain what I mean regarding playing direct. just for you

Otherwise feel free to indulge

Gully's Tactical Analysis

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLreZiNTE-Hs4kA__ElySzhMTiZVakbN_m

Thanks Gully...

I do watch your YouTube stuff

 

[wolfslair]

I post videos nearly every week. I plan to do another this week to highlight our issues without our first choice forward line and how it impacts our defence.

I’ll be sure to explain what I mean regarding playing direct. just for you

Otherwise feel free to indulge

Gully's Tactical Analysis

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLreZiNTE-Hs4kA__ElySzhMTiZVakbN_m

Looking forward to your take on this one mate……

As i am guessing you will cover why in some ways Lemina in the role he was playing had to be done……

As it while people will think it hasn’t worked, I spent time looking at bits again and it has served a good job, but to reduced the overall effectiveness of Mario’s game and left a gap in the team due to him not being able to fulfil his usual important role to the starting strategy he has when he plays centrally.

 

[TheWolfFromWolverhampton]

It's getting better. The tactics themselves, in lamens terms. So the ingame management has improved slightly. Yet needs to get to a stage where. We are managing the game in the game to make sure, the players we are taking off, are as good as the ones we are placing on. I think the emphais has been on counter attacking football, which is good. Yet, there are other ways to score goals, apart from counter attacking. Slowly building up from midfield. Pinging crosses in. Doesn't always have to be playing so centrally. You are a threat when playing on the wing, Pedro Neto is an example of this.

Then you can cut across, and shred the defence. Jose' Sa', again, and the defence. Kicking the ball away, or passing it quickly to midfield. That sense of urgency is there. Yet, in relation to XG. The reason why I think XG isn't as important as some people. Is, it's about the accuracy. You could shoot a thousands times, and not hit the back of the net. The emphasis has to, as well as XG. Has to be a focus on being clinical, placing the ball in the net. Some times brute strength/speed doesn't work. And you have to go for more of a skilled approach, flick ons. Yet, I am no expert, my knowledge of who to play, and when, I am not so sure. Yet with the tactics themselves. You have to be alert, and if you lose focus, then you lose the ball, get punished in the Premier League.

I think playing a less counter attacking style of football, and adopting more of a style of play using the wing backs, would open the defence up better than cutting straight through on goal. Hope this helps. COYW!

 

[Abbobrom]

Gary now Charged by FA over West Ham protest.

 

[Jefe]

Gary now Charged by FA over West Ham protest.

“If your knowledge and understanding of the game is really poor, you could reach the conclusion that it’s offside." - Gary O'Neil

I think for this savagery, he should get a medal, not a fine.

 

[TibbertonWolf]

That really is a cutting comment. Carefully worded and accurate.

The problem doesn’t seem to be with that as much as “threatening” behaviour outside the refs changing rooms. Probably disturbed them while they tried to enjoy a chilled bottle of Chablis or whatever else it is they do after messing up a game. Poor lambs!

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Loved everything Gary said publicly. Obviously we don't know what happened around the ref's room, but can't condone anything overly aggressive. The FA don't need to wake up to the fact that pretty much every time these sort of charges are brought (not just against us) they are caused by incompetent refereeing, and that's been compounded by how hard it is to take when the ref has actually decided correctly only to be effectively overruled by a VAR.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Loved everything Gary said publicly. Obviously we don't know what happened around the ref's room, but can't condone anything overly aggressive. The FA don't need to wake up to the fact that pretty much every time these sort of charges are brought (not just against us) they are caused by incompetent refereeing, and that's been compounded by how hard it is to take when the ref has actually decided correctly only to be effectively overruled by a VAR.

Don’t condone it but I imagine he wanted to rip the officials doors off the hinges!

 

[Mutchy]

Don’t condone it but I imagine he wanted to rip the officials doors off the hinges!

He said he wasn't calm enough to receive an explanation when he went to see the ref afterwards I think?

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

He said he wasn't calm enough to receive an explanation when he went to see the ref afterwards I think?

Who could blame him in all fairness!

 

[Minimalist]

I’ve always thought it so unfair that managers are forced to do interviews straight after a game, then get punished if they say what they believe to be true truth.

 

[JOSWolf]

Typical useless FA. No surprise he has been charged. The game is run by idiots.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

I’ve always thought it so unfair that managers are forced to do interviews straight after a game, then get punished if they say what they believe to be true truth.

Yes, I did say that at the weekend, but in fairness he seems to have been charged over his behaviour at the ref's room, not his media comments.

 

[wolfslair]

“If your knowledge and understanding of the game is really poor, you could reach the conclusion that it’s offside." - Gary O'Neil

I think for this savagery, he should get a medal, not a fine.

Or the fact he had to be removed from their room……..

He is in trouble…….

That quote, plus the removal, he is buggered!!

 

[JadeWolf]

Any charge for the referee telling Gary to **** off?

 

[wolfslair]

Typical useless FA. No surprise he has been charged. The game is run by idiots.

You can’t behave like he clearly has in regards to being removed from the referees room……

Badly treated or not in regards to the VAR decision, he cannot behave in that kind of manor that sees him removed from being near the ref.

Not run by idiots at all….. there are clear standards for behaviour when speaking and dealing with refs and he has overstepped that!

I said at the weekend that those actions would see him in hot water!

And at a time when we are low on numbers, potentially losing him from the touchline is a bloody big own goal!!!!

I love the passion, but right or wrong you still need to behave appropriately with officials

 

[Jefe]

Or the fact he had to be removed from their room…….. He is in trouble……. That quote, plus the removal, he is buggered!!

Fair enough, as long as Tony Harrington and Darren England also get charged for impersonating a match official.

 

[Adrian_Monk]

Baffled at the take that O'Neil isn't a 'tactical' manager. Whether he's had all options available to him or not, he's found micro-tactical instructions that we've been able to exploit. Over time he's been able to impress upon the players more, get increased buy-in, understand their abilities and limitations and whether they are capable of carrying out his instructions correctly. There have been countless examples of O'Neil's tactics materialising into important in-game moments, from trigger-based pressing to overloading and moving to 2-3-5 in possession.

I don't think the 'Harry Redknapp-style' manager survives in the Premier League today. Any club in the top half is using teams of analysts and balancing developing a cohesive style of play (macro) and exploiting the opposition (micro). The coaches towards the top are probably more macro than micro, but for those who don't have the benefit of huge budgets and squads full of winners, the only way to keep pace is eek out every last bit of what you have, and use them in a way that takes advantage of what your opponents don't have. How many teams have targeted Semedo's back-post defending, Kilman's unauthoritative defending style, Lemina's unfamiliarity with his wide role and more recently, our lack of a decent left-back?

Just because the opposition manager has also made successful tactical changes and they have been more successful than ours, doesn't mean the manager isn't tactical. Unsurprisingly, we've looked far more tactically fluid when we've had everyone available. Who'd have guessed it And just because you can't see those tactical changes and their effects, doesn't mean they aren't there.

 

[Beeches wolf]

Chris Wilder's recent refusal to offer his opinion on the match officials performance, spoke volumes and didn't have to say anything to highlight how poor they were.

 

[Norman Bell]

You can’t behave like he clearly has in regards to being removed from the referees room……

Badly treated or not in regards to the VAR decision, he cannot behave in that kind of manor that sees him removed from being near the ref.

Not run by idiots at all….. there are clear standards for behaviour when speaking and dealing with refs and he has overstepped that!

I said at the weekend that those actions would see him in hot water!

And at a time when we are low on numbers, potentially losing him from the touchline is a bloody big own goal!!!!

I love the passion, but right or wrong you still need to behave appropriately with officials

I take your well point but after yet another screw job, Gary can hardly be expected to stroll up to Harrington and say " Thanks awfully old chap. I think you may have got that last bit wrong. But hey ho such is life. Once again spiffing game old boy and toddle pip until we next meet "

 

[Rubberball]

Baffled at the take that O'Neil isn't a 'tactical' manager. Whether he's had all options available to him or not, he's found micro-tactical instructions that we've been able to exploit. Over time he's been able to impress upon the players more, get increased buy-in, understand their abilities and limitations and whether they are capable of carrying out his instructions correctly. There have been countless examples of O'Neil's tactics materialising into important in-game moments, from trigger-based pressing to overloading and moving to 2-3-5 in possession.

I don't think the 'Harry Redknapp-style' manager survives in the Premier League today. Any club in the top half is using teams of analysts and balancing developing a cohesive style of play (macro) and exploiting the opposition (micro). The coaches towards the top are probably more macro than micro, but for those who don't have the benefit of huge budgets and squads full of winners, the only way to keep pace is eek out every last bit of what you have, and use them in a way that takes advantage of what your opponents don't have. How many teams have targeted Semedo's back-post defending, Kilman's unauthoritative defending style, Lemina's unfamiliarity with his wide role and more recently, our lack of a decent left-back?

Just because the opposition manager has also made successful tactical changes and they have been more successful than ours, doesn't mean the manager isn't tactical. Unsurprisingly, we've looked far more tactically fluid when we've had everyone available. Who'd have guessed it And just because you can't see those tactical changes and their effects, doesn't mean they aren't there.

Strange time to post this given GoN got his pants pulled down and bottomed smacked by Moyes in the second half last weekend.

He certainly got out managed and couldn't cope with tactical changes from the opposition manager.

He couldn't cope with the tactics Mark Robins employed for his Coventry side either.

In a world where specialists are key the fact people suggest a manager can do everything is just nuts.

Coaching teams are put in place to support the manager so the manager can use their strengths whilst leaning on their staff to fill the weaknesses. Fergie did this for 2 decades.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

You can’t behave like he clearly has in regards to being removed from the referees room……

Badly treated or not in regards to the VAR decision, he cannot behave in that kind of manor that sees him removed from being near the ref.

Not run by idiots at all….. there are clear standards for behaviour when speaking and dealing with refs and he has overstepped that!

I said at the weekend that those actions would see him in hot water!

And at a time when we are low on numbers, potentially losing him from the touchline is a bloody big own goal!!!!

I love the passion, but right or wrong you still need to behave appropriately with officials

I agree in theory but there is also clear standards of behaviour from players that is blatantly ignored by the same officials for 90 minutes. I’m not saying “two wrongs make a right” just that if anything it shows the standard of officiating. I mean they were getting pelters from all directions walking off the pitch but didn’t send any one off either players or none playing staff

To me it’s the referee hiding behind having to answer the questions from GON by hiding behind “ooh he was being aggressive so needed removing”.

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

I'm surprised this is the one that has tipped O'Neil over the edge.

I do get the feeling that he is someone who wants to deflect. The ballboy thing after Coventry and now this, describing it as the 'worst decision ever' is excessive.

Don't get me wrong, I firmly believe it was the wrong call as I explained at the time, because Fabianski can see the ball. However, whether we like it or not, there have been goals disallowed for similar incidents in the past.

So, there is a logic to the decision, even if it's wrong in my opinion, and I've no doubt that from a tactical point of view, Chirewa has messed up by not stepping up when the ball is played in, as we will have known that West Ham don't have men on the posts. So, his job will have been to screen the keeper and then get onside, which he forgot to do.

I am maybe more accepting of Saturday as I felt we needed to win to have any chance of staying in the hunt for European football, so a draw wasn't doing much anyway.

I was personally far more gutted with the decisions earlier in the season. The Newcastle, Sheffield United and Fulham games were tough to take and I thought O'Neil would've flown off the handle then, particularly as they were relatively close together.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

I'm surprised this is the one that has tipped O'Neil over the edge.

I do get the feeling that he is someone who wants to deflect. The ballboy thing after Coventry and now this, describing it as the 'worst decision ever' is excessive.

Don't get me wrong, I firmly believe it was the wrong call as I explained at the time, because Fabianski can see the ball. However, whether we like it or not, there have been goals disallowed for similar incidents in the past.

So, there is a logic to the decision, even if it's wrong in my opinion, and I've no doubt that from a tactical point of view, Chirewa has messed up by not stepping up when the ball is played in, as we will have known that West Ham don't have men on the posts. So, his job will have been to screen the keeper and then get onside, which he forgot to do.

I am maybe more accepting of Saturday as I felt we needed to win to have any chance of staying in the hunt for European football, so a draw wasn't doing much anyway.

I was personally far more gutted with the decisions earlier in the season. The Newcastle, Sheffield United and Fulham games were tough to take and I thought O'Neil would've flown off the handle then, particularly as they were relatively close together.

Yes, it was wrong, it wasn't even the worst we've had this season, I'm not even sure it makes top 3!

What I think separates it from some of the other ones is that it was so late (as was Sheff U to be fair) but also a VAR decision that came when absolutely nobody thought there could be anything wrong with the goal.

 

[wolfslair]

I agree in theory but there is also clear standards of behaviour from players that is blatantly ignored by the same officials for 90 minutes. I’m not saying “two wrongs make a right” just that if anything it shows the standard of officiating. I mean they were getting pelters from all directions walking off the pitch but didn’t send any one off either players or none playing staff

To me it’s the referee hiding behind having to answer the questions from GON by hiding behind “ooh he was being aggressive so needed removing”.

I agree with you!

The players get away with far too bloody much!

If I spoke to a referee on the rugby pitch like a footballer does I would have been banned for months at time!!!

I got a charge, suspended 4 week ban and a £750 fine for asking “are you serious or did you just give what their crowd asked for there?”

To not punish the players for some of the things we have seen is disgusting.

So it does make the charge feel less fair when it is a manager.

But I do think managers are held to higher standard than players when it comes to conduct with referees as they are seen as the ones who set the example to their players.

It will be good to hear what happened in the VAR room on the offside though……..

 

[wolfslair]

I take your well point but after yet another screw job, Gary can hardly be expected to stroll up to Harrington and say " Thanks awfully old chap. I think you may have got that last bit wrong. But hey ho such is life. Once again spiffing game old boy and toddle pip until we next meet "

Mate, screw job or not……. You can make your point and not need to be removed from the room for being “aggressive and threatening”

You don’t see rugby players who are much bigger and play a sport that is far more aggressive and physical have the same issues and their refs recently have dropped some massive result altering mistakes……..

 

[wolfslair]

Yes, it was wrong, it wasn't even the worst we've had this season, I'm not even sure it makes top 3!

What I think separates it from some of the other ones is that it was so late (as was Sheff U to be fair) but also a VAR decision that came when absolutely nobody thought there could be anything wrong with the goal.

I am the same as you mate!!!

The other ones felt like a crime against football as they didn’t make sense……

This one, while wrong in its application, had the ability to fall into the grey area of the application of the law. Look at how the refs who are defending it are able to do so.

Wrong in the spirit of the game, but no where near as bad as the others we have experienced

 

[brianm]

At this point, I'm warming to the European super league just to **** over these charlatans at the Prem.

 

[SuperGran]

What I think separates it from some of the other ones is that it was so late (as was Sheff U to be fair) but also a VAR decision that came when absolutely nobody thought there could be anything wrong with the goal.

It was a game that held importance for European qualification too giving West Ham the advantage

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

At this point, I'm warming to the European super league just to **** over these charlatans at the Prem.

Only if they promise to take the “elite” officials with them.