Fosun's Gamble

[Chisels_n_ommers]

Sorry doesn’t make sense. You take the Kilman money and reinvlvest if you’re trying to maximise value. Centre halves are available as proved by Dawson acquisition

Did Kilman want to leave?
Let's say Kilman points out I don't want to play for Napoli, then would that not render the deal off?
Maybe he wants to stay in England, in the Prem and not in Italy?

Can a player be made to move if they are against it? (such as Fati of Barcelona)

 

[Zico]

It's a best guess based on what they're currently doing, and what we know about their financial position. The other option so far as I can see is that they're selling players to repay loans to themselves to help with their cashflow, but that doesn't really make sense for the long term as far as I can see.

I'm with you, it's either very puzzling or a huge gamble.

Regarding your point about effectively taking money out of the club into the group, I don't really understand the rules of business, is this even legal, and if so would it have to be transparent?

 

[BlahBlah]

Let’s be clear I think they’ve served their time but in the interest of balance the attached article is 12 months old and does not take into account a major group refinancing exercise earlier this year. It quotes Moody’s but not S&P, who in my opinion is a better credit rated agency. Alongside the above article we have seen circulation of the Asia Nikkei piece, again 12 months old, to reinforce the same points. I am not sure anyone of us is particularly qualified to make an informed judgement on their finances and should certainly steer away from rehashing old articles. Finally, for what its worth FI share price rose these last few days.

Agree.
But as some have mentioned here, there is now a growing and major problem with the whole Chinese economy and the whole country looks like it's about to catch a serious cold, which is going to have major impacts worldwide. I'm not sure if people are awake to the significance yet.
It will impact all parts of the Chinese economy and everybody has to be ready for it.....from a country that was regularly hitting 8% growth per annum they are in negative territory, which is still difficult to fathom.
Momentum is very difficult to stop, as we can see with the downward trajection of the British economy due to Brexit, poor productivity, war, terrible leadership and poorly performing attempts to restrict inflation whilst protecting people's life qualities. Try that in a country with a billion people and it's a nightmare scenario that you can possibly predict more easily....major upheaval and a need for rational thinking to avoid panic.

A weird thing is happening with the Australian dollar in that it's sliding in line with the Yuan, although not formally tied to it. Australia tends to try and peg its fortunes in line with USA policy, but the USA have basically damned the world by concentrating on and pushing up the dollar and making the rest of our currencies comparatively weaker.
With Australia's exports to China being bigger than the next biggest 4 countries combined, they're going to be in a bit of mess if the Chinese shut up shop for a few years while they sort it out. Evergrande's debts are around USD $330 billion....they will stop building. The people will be in negative equity and the whole place may grind to a halt and enter stagnation while debts are paid.
Fosun's problems are very minor compared to some of the carnage that may be on the horizon, so from a pure business sense even with substantial and legitimate international holdings, as a Chinese company with real estate interests at home, they need to build up more resilience just as a responsible governance direction.

I still think Wolves are small enough to deal with by some smart deals and negotiations without breaking the bank. What i'm annoyed about is that we should have been doing that for the last 3 years, not wasting money on players who are not worth it and getting ourselves into this mess.

 

[StraightToPopworld]

Interesting that Keen hasn’t denied any Fosun sale yet. Feels like the club are always quite quick to feed him a line if they want to deny a story in the press/socials.

 

[Mighty Thor]

Agree.
But as some have mentioned here, there is now a growing and major problem with the whole Chinese economy and the whole country looks like it's about to catch a serious cold, which is going to have major impacts worldwide. I'm not sure if people are awake to the significance yet.
It will impact all parts of the Chinese economy and everybody has to be ready for it.....from a country that was regularly hitting 8% growth per annum they are in negative territory, which is still difficult to fathom.
Momentum is very difficult to stop, as we can see with the downward trajection of the British economy due to Brexit, poor productivity, war, terrible leadership and poorly performing attempts to restrict inflation whilst protecting people's life qualities. Try that in a country with a billion people and it's a nightmare scenario that you can possibly predict more easily....major upheaval and a need for rational thinking to avoid panic.

A weird thing is happening with the Australian dollar in that it's sliding in line with the Yuan, although not formally tied to it. Australia tends to try and peg its fortunes in line with USA policy, but the USA have basically damned the world by concentrating on and pushing up the dollar and making the rest of our currencies comparatively weaker.
With Australia's exports to China being bigger than the next biggest 4 countries combined, they're going to be in a bit of mess if the Chinese shut up shop for a few years while they sort it out. Evergrande's debts are around USD $330 billion....they will stop building. The people will be in negative equity and the whole place may grind to a halt and enter stagnation while debts are paid.
Fosun's problems are very minor compared to some of the carnage that may be on the horizon, so from a pure business sense even with substantial and legitimate international holdings, as a Chinese company with real estate interests at home, they need to build up more resilience just as a responsible governance direction.

I still think Wolves are small enough to deal with by some smart deals and negotiations without breaking the bank. What i'm annoyed about is that we should have been doing that for the last 3 years, not wasting money on players who are not worth it and getting ourselves into this mess.

This. China escaped our financial crisis. Theirs is just beginning. It’s going to make our financial crisis look like a teddy bears picnic.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

Agree.
But as some have mentioned here, there is now a growing and major problem with the whole Chinese economy and the whole country looks like it's about to catch a serious cold, which is going to have major impacts worldwide. I'm not sure if people are awake to the significance yet.
It will impact all parts of the Chinese economy and everybody has to be ready for it.....from a country that was regularly hitting 8% growth per annum they are in negative territory, which is still difficult to fathom.
Momentum is very difficult to stop, as we can see with the downward trajection of the British economy due to Brexit, poor productivity, war, terrible leadership and poorly performing attempts to restrict inflation whilst protecting people's life qualities. Try that in a country with a billion people and it's a nightmare scenario that you can possibly predict more easily....major upheaval and a need for rational thinking to avoid panic.

A weird thing is happening with the Australian dollar in that it's sliding in line with the Yuan, although not formally tied to it. Australia tends to try and peg its fortunes in line with USA policy, but the USA have basically damned the world by concentrating on and pushing up the dollar and making the rest of our currencies comparatively weaker.
With Australia's exports to China being bigger than the next biggest 4 countries combined, they're going to be in a bit of mess if the Chinese shut up shop for a few years while they sort it out. Evergrande's debts are around USD $330 billion....they will stop building. The people will be in negative equity and the whole place may grind to a halt and enter stagnation while debts are paid.
Fosun's problems are very minor compared to some of the carnage that may be on the horizon, so from a pure business sense even with substantial and legitimate international holdings, as a Chinese company with real estate interests at home, they need to build up more resilience just as a responsible governance direction.

I still think Wolves are small enough to deal with by some smart deals and negotiations without breaking the bank. What i'm annoyed about is that we should have been doing that for the last 3 years, not wasting money on players who are not worth it and getting ourselves into this mess.

I said above thanks to those on here who can add an international financial perspective to all this as it helps thickos, like me, to try to understand what may be is happening at Wolves. Thanks for your post Blah Blah. I don't know who Evergrande are and what they have to do with this tbh? I don't understand what you're trying to say in your last paragraph; can you explain that again in simple terms. Thanks.

 

[NewarkWolf]

Bit late in the day to sell now for any change to me made of the mess that’s been created now

 

[NewarkWolf]

Long season ahead….. one filled with 3 managers imo, O’Neil out by November, next one given some funds in January only be axed in a desperate attempt for the 3rd (big Sam) to keep us from middle of March

 

[mac tíre]

Long season ahead….. one filled with 3 managers imo, O’Neil out by November, next one given some funds in January only be axed in a desperate attempt for the 3rd (big Sam) to keep us from middle of March

Perish the thought!

 

[WickedWolfie]

For the last month or so we have been on a lousy emotional roller coaster…..what with JL leaving…..ffp……Jeff’s letter….no big transfers….are Fosun selling ….Gary-with-not-much-experience..etc….played great vs United but got trashed by Brighton..etc.

We are emotionally attached to something we have no control over and compared to our first two season back up, it’s lousy.

all I meant is let’s see what happens.

A roller coaster normally involves some ups.....

 

[WickedWolfie]

He does, but under the pseudonym @Norman Bell

Nah, methinks Guo is a Notts fan.... lol

 

[WickedWolfie]

you mean it could possibly plummet any more than it is now, Actually Div 1 and Saunders will take some beating I suppose,

How does the Bhattis and D4 grab you?

 

[goldfish]

I'm with you, it's either very puzzling or a huge gamble.

Regarding your point about effectively taking money out of the club into the group, I don't really understand the rules of business, is this even legal, and if so would it have to be transparent?

I think Fosun has loaned the club money, so presumably that could be repaid. That obviously helps Fosun while also making us more sellable (presumably?).

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

If Fosun don't have the cash or aren't willing to invest in the club, then trying to sell the club is the right thing to do. It seems very likely that this is what's happening, and it's going to mean short term pain.

For the club to be an attractive prospect for a buyer, it should be:

1. Not saddled with debt
2. In a good place for FFP going forwards
3. Low wage bill, with players who would still achieve decent money if sold
4. Away from relegation danger

In order to meet 1, 2 and 3, Fosun should sell without investing. But that endangers 4. The trick for Fosun, if they are trying to sell, is to find the right balance. So if they are selling, we can expect Nunes and Semedo to be sold, with a couple of players of the Brownhill ilk to come in. They need a squad good enough not just to avoid relegation but to be clear of the relegation threat: that uncertainty will put off/delay buyers.

I suspect they didn't sell Kilman because finding a homegrown replacement of sufficient quality would have been very very difficult.

My hunch is that this is what's happening. It isn't asset stripping, and is actually the right thing to do for the long-term future of the club, but it's hugely risky. If the club's not been sold by Jan and we're at risk of relegation I'd expect spend then.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand how spending 25 million on Alex scott or similar puts us at any lower risk of relegation this year. I'd rather keep RAN than bring Cresswell in. Elvedi and Antonio would help but the latter is west ham's first choice striker who also thinks we are going down.
Ultimately we haven't given Lopetegui the backing to do that business. He has ****ed off. I don't think out squad is bad but if it was I really don't see how the players mentioned above turn us from being relegation candidates to comparitive safety.

 

[Bacon Sandwich]

I said above thanks to those on here who can add an international financial perspective to all this as it helps thickos, like me, to try to understand what may be is happening at Wolves. Thanks for your post Blah Blah. I don't know who Evergrande are and what they have to do with this tbh? I don't understand what you're trying to say in your last paragraph; can you explain that again in simple terms. Thanks.

Morning NNW. Evergrande were once the biggest property company in the world. Some commentators started writing about their accounting practices and potential problems as far back as 2013. They're now a complete basket case: the last time I wrote about them for clients they had debts to 210 banks with bonds falling due for repayment on pretty much a monthly basis. In order to meet one of the bonds falling due the CEO had to sell his house Evergrande chief's luxury assets in focus as his company scrambles to pay debts

To me, Evergrande look like the template for Fosun: as @Mighty Thor writes above, the Chinese economy is heading for massive problems. Hope that helps

 

[goldfish]

To me, Evergrande look like the template for Fosun: as @Mighty Thor writes above, the Chinese economy is heading for massive problems. Hope that helps

Fosun aren't heavily in the Chinese property market though, are they? That's really stagnant and at least hastened Evergrande"s woes.

 

[loppers86]

i guess everyone has always known that the end of the Fosun era was going to be a risky and potentially painful time. i think we are about to find out how painful.

 

[Timberwolf]

This is a forum for fans to express their opinions, vent their concerns and, sometimes, share a bit of insight. If you want evidence suggest you watch CSI.

The Poster suggested it was ‘very likely’, I didn’t. If it’s very likely, then what has the poster seen, heard or read to support quite a strong assertion?
As you say, it’s a forum and I’d hate to believe posters are just making **** up

 

[wolvesjoe]

Let’s be clear I think they’ve served their time but in the interest of balance the attached article is 12 months old and does not take into account a major group refinancing exercise earlier this year. It quotes Moody’s but not S&P, who in my opinion is a better credit rated agency. Alongside the above article we have seen circulation of the Asia Nikkei piece, again 12 months old, to reinforce the same points. I am not sure anyone of us is particularly qualified to make an informed judgement on their finances and should certainly steer away from rehashing old articles. Finally, for what its worth FI share price rose these last few days.

The articles that I drew attention to were all from late May this year.

The share price remains at a five year low:

fosun share price - Google Search

The group refinancing you mention was based on the sale of several assests, in "mining, brewing, steel and diamonds sectors" . You cant sell assets twice.

I agree that this is not conclusive evidence that a sale is imminent, just to show that Fosun's debt servicing and low earnings ratios remain major issues for the group. In this context, a sale of Wolves would not be out of the blue.

 

[BlahBlah]

Morning NNW. Evergrande were once the biggest property company in the world. Some commentators started writing about their accounting practices and potential problems as far back as 2013. They're now a complete basket case:

The also had a football team in Guangzhou Evergrande boight in 2010, they piled a fortune into it and won the league 7 times, Asia Champions League twice etc... they were mamanaged by Lippi, Scolari, Cannavaro.
By 2022 they were in trouble and had to get rid of the team with the collapse of their football league and the virtual ban on foreign players.
The rival team Guangzhou R&F, were also owned by a real estate company. Each company had competing skyscraper headquarters next to each other and the owners used to compete. Pure gluttony and they spent money like water.

The teams are now called Guangzhou and Guangzhou City and are much poorer.......

 

[wolvesjoe]

In general, Fosun have done well in their primary task of advancing the club, making good use of the Mendes connection to
transform the club's status, particularly under Nuno. They have also understood that the club is at the heart of a wider community and ensured that the club lives up to its responsibilities in that regard. They have also upgraded the youth section, a key element both of elite status and the continued presence of the club in people's lives locally. The fiasco of this summer, imo, should be seen as a product of Fosun's wider troubles, rather than an indictment of their stewardship of the club overall.

That's not to absolve Fosun and Shi from some very poor decisions in terms of manager choice, (Lage), or senior personnel,, (Sellars), or, indeed, an increasingly opaque style of leadership, but to recognise their achievements. If there is a longterm strategic failure, it was the failure to build a new stadium or a thoroughly renovated Molineux and integrate all the multi-faceted benefits such a project would have brought to the club, and to the city.

Fosun can still leave honourably, by handing the club over to good new owners, by not putting the club and fans through extended periods of doubt, by not pushing the asking price too high, by not stripping the squad of key players and so on. I greatly fear, however, that those dangers are going to be realised.

 

[Oldgoldilox]

This. China escaped our financial crisis. Theirs is just beginning. It’s going to make our financial crisis look like a teddy bears picnic.

Coincidentally, just seen this from John Simpson (BBC) in the last minute:
https://twitter.com/JohnSimpsonNews
https://twitter.com/JohnSimpsonNews
@JohnSimpsonNews
·
1m

Things are changing. China’s economy grew at an annualised rate of 3.2% in the second quarter of this year. By comparison it’s estimated that the US economy is growing at just under 6%. Some economists believe China is entering a deflationary trap

 

[Wisdomwolf]

Agree.
But as some have mentioned here, there is now a growing and major problem with the whole Chinese economy and the whole country looks like it's about to catch a serious cold, which is going to have major impacts worldwide. I'm not sure if people are awake to the significance yet.
It will impact all parts of the Chinese economy and everybody has to be ready for it.....from a country that was regularly hitting 8% growth per annum they are in negative territory, which is still difficult to fathom.
Momentum is very difficult to stop, as we can see with the downward trajection of the British economy due to Brexit, poor productivity, war, terrible leadership and poorly performing attempts to restrict inflation whilst protecting people's life qualities. Try that in a country with a billion people and it's a nightmare scenario that you can possibly predict more easily....major upheaval and a need for rational thinking to avoid panic.

A weird thing is happening with the Australian dollar in that it's sliding in line with the Yuan, although not formally tied to it. Australia tends to try and peg its fortunes in line with USA policy, but the USA have basically damned the world by concentrating on and pushing up the dollar and making the rest of our currencies comparatively weaker.
With Australia's exports to China being bigger than the next biggest 4 countries combined, they're going to be in a bit of mess if the Chinese shut up shop for a few years while they sort it out. Evergrande's debts are around USD $330 billion....they will stop building. The people will be in negative equity and the whole place may grind to a halt and enter stagnation while debts are paid.
Fosun's problems are very minor compared to some of the carnage that may be on the horizon, so from a pure business sense even with substantial and legitimate international holdings, as a Chinese company with real estate interests at home, they need to build up more resilience just as a responsible governance direction.

I still think Wolves are small enough to deal with by some smart deals and negotiations without breaking the bank. What i'm annoyed about is that we should have been doing that for the last 3 years, not wasting money on players who are not worth it and getting ourselves into this mess.

Agree.
A game changer for China lies in part with its private sector led corporations who’ve become distrusted by Xi, exacted revenge on a few owners including one of own so to speak. Prior to the private sector corporations China has relied on public sector led corporations to advance market growth, but they have no experience and by and large fail. More than ever China needs its true entrepreneurs to flourish and recently even Jack Ma has resurfaced. As you say Blah Blah comparatively Fosun has much less limited exposure than most counterparts, and is forecasted to have a good 2023. Hats off to them in pharma they are pioneering world leading treatments for serious illnesses which are about to go public, this will be huge for them. As for Guo, I think he still retains a position on a prominent CCP politburo committee, and fosun donated several billions last year to the Common Prosperity Programme to keep in with the powers that be.

Did anyone else pick up Russell Jones quote alongside the U17 tour of South Korea where he explicitly emphasised how that part of the world as key to the future growth aspirations of the club? I would suggest that was deliberately timed.

 

[Wisdomwolf]

The also had a football team in Guangzhou Evergrande boight in 2010, they piled a fortune into it and won the league 7 times, Asia Champions League twice etc... they were mamanaged by Lippi, Scolari, Cannavaro.
By 2022 they were in trouble and had to get rid of the team with the collapse of their football league and the virtual ban on foreign players.
The rival team Guangzhou R&F, were also owned by a real estate company. Each company had competing skyscraper headquarters next to each other and the owners used to compete. Pure gluttony and they spent money like water.

The teams are now called Guangzhou and Guangzhou City and are much poorer.......

Interestingly Dalian who own Wanda retain a significant share in Athletico Madrid. Sunning remain the largest shareholder in Inter despite their well documented problems. Their crunch point comes next May when they have a £300m loan to repay which is charged with a stupid rate of interest.

The economic problem structurally is real estate which . forms 29% of its GDP which compares unfavourably with other developed nations (17%). may explain why fosun have been reluctant to invest on the stadium.

 

[Wolf316]

Anyone know how accurate this is?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1694781514515468475

 

[Jefe]

Long season ahead….. one filled with 3 managers imo, O’Neil out by November, next one given some funds in January only be axed in a desperate attempt for the 3rd (big Sam) to keep us from middle of March

Don't forget Davis will also get his customary five games in charge after Jeff sacks O'Neill without having anyone lined up, like last season!

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

Morning NNW. Evergrande were once the biggest property company in the world. Some commentators started writing about their accounting practices and potential problems as far back as 2013. They're now a complete basket case: the last time I wrote about them for clients they had debts to 210 banks with bonds falling due for repayment on pretty much a monthly basis. In order to meet one of the bonds falling due the CEO had to sell his house Evergrande chief's luxury assets in focus as his company scrambles to pay debts

To me, Evergrande look like the template for Fosun: as @Mighty Thor writes above, the Chinese economy is heading for massive problems. Hope that helps

Thanks for taking the time to explain. Is there an direct comparison to the mess Evergrande are in to Fosun's position?

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

In general, Fosun have done well in their primary task of advancing the club, making good use of the Mendes connection to
transform the club's status, particularly under Nuno. They have also understood that the club is at the heart of a wider community and ensured that the club lives up to its responsibilities in that regard. They have also upgraded the youth section, a key element both of elite status and the continued presence of the club in people's lives locally. The fiasco of this summer, imo, should be seen as a product of Fosun's wider troubles, rather than an indictment of their stewardship of the club overall.

That's not to absolve Fosun and Shi from some very poor decisions in terms of manager choice, (Lage), or senior personnel,, (Sellars), or, indeed, an increasingly opaque style of leadership, but to recognise their achievements. If there is a longterm strategic failure, it was the failure to build a new stadium or a thoroughly renovated Molineux and integrate all the multi-faceted benefits such a project would have brought to the club, and to the city.

Fosun can still leave honourably, by handing the club over to good new owners, by not putting the club and fans through extended periods of doubt, by not pushing the asking price too high, by not stripping the squad of key players and so on. I greatly fear, however, that those dangers are going to be realised.

Thanks for that Wolvesjoe. Very informative and puts things into perspective for people like me who tend to focus pretty much on the football and not the wider political things that I realise now are at the centre of all this. Your last paragraph is concerning however. From what I can gather now Fosun want to sell the club for as much as possible but also need cash, raised by selling players. The catch 22 situation for them is that by selling players we risk relegation thus lowering the value of the club? **** me, all I want is to watch Wolves winning games, is that too much to ask?

 

[chignalwolf]

How does the Bhattis and D4 grab you?

Thanks a lot Wicked, I have spent yrs and money on counselling to try and forget that era, and you just brought it all back.
now I have to find that elastic band to start pinging my wrist again, ouch, ouch, found it,LOL

 

[Sussex Wolf]

In general, Fosun have done well in their primary task of advancing the club, making good use of the Mendes connection to
transform the club's status, particularly under Nuno. They have also understood that the club is at the heart of a wider community and ensured that the club lives up to its responsibilities in that regard. They have also upgraded the youth section, a key element both of elite status and the continued presence of the club in people's lives locally. The fiasco of this summer, imo, should be seen as a product of Fosun's wider troubles, rather than an indictment of their stewardship of the club overall.

That's not to absolve Fosun and Shi from some very poor decisions in terms of manager choice, (Lage), or senior personnel,, (Sellars), or, indeed, an increasingly opaque style of leadership, but to recognise their achievements. If there is a longterm strategic failure, it was the failure to build a new stadium or a thoroughly renovated Molineux and integrate all the multi-faceted benefits such a project would have brought to the club, and to the city.

Fosun can still leave honourably, by handing the club over to good new owners, by not putting the club and fans through extended periods of doubt, by not pushing the asking price too high, by not stripping the squad of key players and so on. I greatly fear, however, that those dangers are going to be realised.

Very fair and balanced.

 

[lostwolf]

If Fosun do or do not want to sell, they’ll take their own council and not from a disembodied post from a footy forum.

We can all post or start threads til we’re blue in the face but nothing we say will make any difference.

Asking , ( or using a lot of profanity), whether. Shi should go or whether Fosun should sell is like a tiny ant bite to an elephant.
In 2021, their assets were $1.26B and they have over 70,000 employees.
You don’t get to be that big and profitable by making many mistakes.

For better or worse, we fans can only watch and see what the future brings. Complaining till the cows come home will only make you feel more frustrated and miserable.

Bit much that mate. Everything you say is objectively true, but you're basically arguing against football forums like this one.

 

[WickedWolfie]

Thanks a lot Wicked, I have spent yrs and money on counselling to try and forget that era, and you just brought it all back.
now I have to find that elastic band to start pinging my wrist again, ouch, ouch, found it,LOL

Sorry mate.... I was there and traumatized too....

 

[chignalwolf]

Sorry mate.... I was there and traumatized too....

yeah far to many Wolves fans still have the scars to prove it mate, will it ever go away those memories,

 

[VancouverWolf]

Bit much that mate. Everything you say is objectively true, but you're basically arguing against football forums like this one.

Didn’t mean it that way……sorry.

 

[Eastyorksyeltz]

Didn’t mean it that way……sorry.

Don't apologise you were right. It's thinking football forums, or indeed any social media platforms, are more than they are that is the problem here.

 

[R1ch]

This could change but I find it totally bizarre they havnt spent anything this summer, at the very least an owner/club with any sort of long term vision would have signed a few players for relatively low fees with potential to develop that would have made the bench chiquinho, traore, toti for example. We know the FFP stuff is rubbish at this point otherwise they'd have sold Kilman.

Their general running of the club is so strange there can't be many teams that flip flop philosophies as often as we have. In a short few years we've gone from nuno, mendes heavy to relatively unknown manager/high profile expensive signings, nearly a young British manager in Beale, majorly high profile manager bowing down to the expensive signings he wants, not backing the high profile manager they chased for years, young British manager moving away from mendes transfers and spending nothing.

 

[goldfish]

The Poster suggested it was ‘very likely’, I didn’t. If it’s very likely, then what has the poster seen, heard or read to support quite a strong assertion?
As you say, it’s a forum and I’d hate to believe posters are just making **** up

I said "it seems very likely", making it clear this was supposition rather than assertion. The rest of the post makes it clear it was an educated guess based on what's going on, not a prediction or a claim to know what's going on. Others have replied to the thread suggesting I may have got it wrong, and I'm grateful for those posts: the discussion is all useful in trying to work out what's happening.

 

[goldfish]

Their general running of the club is so strange there can't be many teams that flip flop philosophies as often as we have. In a short few years we've gone from nuno, mendes heavy to relatively unknown manager/high profile expensive signings, nearly a young British manager in Beale, majorly high profile manager bowing down to the expensive signings he wants, not backing the high profile manager they chased for years, young British manager moving away from mendes transfers and spending nothing.

Maybe we should have seen this coming when the Chuckle Brothers were in the Director's Box for the first game of the Fosun era. "To me, to you".

 

[goldeneyed]

So who of any quality will want to join a club that appears to be in freefall after the Nunes sale presumably happens. Even if we get £60m we are bound to struggle at such short notice to bring the kind of quality we need even to just stay up. Feel sorry for the rest of the squad right now, never mind the supporters. Second rate in every way from now on and heading for the 'second' division.

 

[Bawtry Wolf]

Sorry mate.... I was there and traumatized too....

To be fair Division 4 after Xmas 1986 was actually fun and cheap. You could get from London for £10 return and it was a £5 to stand on the Southbank and we started winning after 3 years of losing.

But agree the journey there was shocking.