Fosun out?

[BCWolf]

surely there must be lots of potential billionaires willing to spend 300 million pounds to buy wolves and then put up another couple of hundred million to challenge the big six…not sure where they make a 12% return but think of the prestige .

wolves have had a few owners over the years and surely they must all have been more respected than Fosun…lots of people like to throw away money even if Fosun don’t , but I wonder in the last 100 years did any owner make a profit on wolves or did they all do it for the fans.

They have sold some interests to that American company and have said they are looking for other partners, so not sure my comment deserves that level of sarcasm. So it's not like they're not open to offers. I simply wonder whether their valuation of the club has scared-off bidders.

 

[VancouverWolf]

They have sold some interests to that American company and have said they are looking for other partners, so not sure my comment deserves that level of sarcasm. So it's not like they're not open to offers. I simply wonder whether their valuation of the club has scared-off bidders.

The question is have they made it worth their while if they sold now.

They didn’t just buy Wolves to make coffee money……they wanted a good return for their time and investment.

So……if they sold now would they make a profit?
If I was to guess from the tiny scraps of info we get, I’d say no. Don’t forget there’s a million costs to running the club on a daily basis.

But hey….what do I know? I don’t have access to the real figures.

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

We owe them £127M last i looked at accounts. So that plus whatever price they want would be the starting point.

Burnley sold for £150M a year or so back, we have bigger ground and are more stable on field so maybe £200M?

Would mean we would be more expensive than Newcastle all in.

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

We owe them £127M last i looked at accounts. So that plus whatever price they want would be the starting point.

Burnley sold for £150M a year or so back, we have bigger ground and are more stable on field so maybe £200M?

Would mean we would be more expensive than Newcastle all in.

We don’t own our ground though? I think the club currently is valued at about 300/400m which is a significant profit on the 40m purchase and the 130m loan but still peanuts to Fosun.

 

[Mugwump]

While i dont want them out, they have made some odd decisions over the last couple of years. Get rid of Nuno for a more attacking coach and we proceed to have scored less goals than this time last season. The transfer decisions have been very questionable. If they want to make money from us, they need a change of strategy.

 

[Oh When the Wolves]

Time for some answers IMO.

What brain cell did you use when you loaned out one of our better place and failed to sign cover for a 37 year old midfielder.

Name one other club that have loaned out on of their best attackers. This is like Arsenal loaning out smith rowe, or spurs loaning out Lucas , or Man U loaning out Sancho.

 

[Ned Stark]

Time for some answers IMO.

What brain cell did you use when you loaned out one of our better place and failed to sign cover for a 37 year old midfielder.

Name one other club that have loaned out on of their best attackers. This is like Arsenal loaning out smith rowe, or spurs loaning out Lucas , or Man U loaning out Sancho.

It really isn’t.


More like Man U loaning out Jesse Lingard.

 

[Mugwump]

Our transfers out weren't a problem. We let go a player who mainly featured off the bench and didn't want to stay here, loaned out a few players who wouldn't get game time and released a right back who was miles down the pecking order.

If we signed a midfielder and striker ( not going to include Hwang as he has added nothing new to the squad ) there wouldn't be a single person complaining with our business. If we signed a center half as well, everyone would be saying what a great window it was. When you look at the cold hard facts, as i keep saying, its incomings, not outgoings that will stop us progressing. Thats where the critisicm of Shi and Fosun should be targeted, incoming players. The outgoings were perfectly fine.

 

[Oh When the Wolves]

Our transfers out weren't a problem. We let go a player who mainly featured off the bench and didn't want to stay here, loaned out a few players who wouldn't get game time and released a right back who was miles down the pecking order.

If we signed a midfielder and striker ( not going to include Hwang as he has added nothing new to the squad ) there wouldn't be a single person complaining with our business. If we signed a center half as well, everyone would be saying what a great window it was. When you look at the cold hard facts, as i keep saying, its incomings, not outgoings that will stop us progressing. Thats where the critisicm of Shi and Fosun should be targeted, incoming players. The outgoings were perfectly fine.

That is absolute rubbish .

What is wrong with people

 

[Mugwump]

That is absolute rubbish .

What is wrong with people

So its rubbish we didnt strengthen and only let go fringe players and a substitute who didnt want to be here

 

[reanswolf]

That is absolute rubbish .

What is wrong with people

To be fair that is pretty accurate.

We all knew Traore wanted out, what could we do, but the club should by now have sorted out replacements and back Bruno.
The club run the risk of damaging the excellent morale within, by pushing and stretching it to its limits.
Its just really disappointing. And somewhat sad.

 

[Deleted member 9202LYK]

It really isn’t.


More like Man U loaning out Jesse Lingard.

But they get £10 million pounds and we get £0. Otherwise it’s identical.

 

[rubyloo]

I'd rather lose 1-0 to arsenal than Barnsley. It's great being in the premier League and that's thanks to fosun.

Frustrating to see how close we are to being top 4, but we are competing with clubs who are simply on another level.

 

[Oh When the Wolves]

So its rubbish we didnt strengthen and only let go fringe players and a substitute who didnt want to be here

He wasn’t a fringe player

 

[Mugwump]

He wasn’t a fringe player

Who? If its your boy i said he was ( mainly ) a substitute and didnt want to be here, which is true. Never put him in with the fringe players who went elsewhere. You get very defensive about old Adama.

 

[Oh When the Wolves]

Who? If its your boy i said he was ( mainly ) a substitute and didnt want to be here, which is true. Never put him in with the fringe players who went elsewhere. You get very defensive about old Adama.

Traore played more minutes than any other wide player at the club. To call him a fringe player is simply stupid.

Are you suggesting he would have had less of an impact on the game yesterday than Trincao?

 

[Mugwump]

Traore played more minutes than any other wide player at the club. To call him a fringe player is simply stupid.

Are you suggesting he would have had less of an impact on the game yesterday than Trincao?

You are laughable. I didnt once call him a fringe player. He was a squad player.

And why would i compare him to a bloke coming back from Covid. That would just be ridiculous of anyone to do that in all honesty with any player. But if you want me to answer i'd say i dont know, and nobody does to be frank. I've seen games where i expected Adama to do very little and he has done well, then i've seen him do nothing in games i expected him to excel in. Thats the Adama conundrum, you dont get that consitency of performance you get from players like Son. He's not our player any more so i dont see the point in pining and crying about him not being here. If i was going to carry on about a player who has left ( which i'm not ) it would be somebody like Jota who is proving himself consistently to be a quality player in the premier league.

 

[Oh When the Wolves]

You are laughable. I didnt once call him a fringe player. He was a squad player.

And why would i compare him to a bloke coming back from Covid. That would just be ridiculous of anyone to do that in all honesty with any player. But if you want me to answer i'd say i dont know, and nobody does to be frank. I've seen games where i expected Adama to do very little and he has done well, then i've seen him do nothing in games i expected him to excel in. Thats the Adama conundrum, you dont get that consitency of performance you get from players like Son. He's not our player any more so i dont see the point in pining and crying about him not being here. If i was going to carry on about a player who has left ( which i'm not ) it would be somebody like Jota who is proving himself consistently to be a quality player in the premier league.

A squad player who has played most minutes out of any wide player

 

[Mugwump]

A squad player who has played most minutes out of any wide player

So you are agreeing with me now, he is a squad player, not a fringe player.

 

[Pessimistic Wolf]

I think you've got to distinguish between being unhappy about and critical of FOSUN, and wanting them gone. I am in the former camp but not necessarily in the latter camp.

There are some good reasons to be critical of FOSUN.

- Investment in the squad in the last two windows has been poor, and the squad is materially weaker than it has been. Key players who have departed have not been replaced with players of equal ability. At the same time, we are seeing investment in other areas of the club profile, such as Wolves Music, esports and Grasshoppers, which makes the lack of squad investment more frustrating.

- Communication has been relatively poor and left some doubting the honesty and sincerity of the senior team. There is a real sense of ambiguity about FOSUN's plan for the team; references to FFP limiting spending are either poorly explained or flat-out inaccurate. We have seen a ticket price hike justified with the promise of a better product, which hasn't manifested very clearly.

- Club engagement with fans has seemed hollow, and at times, scornful. Concerns about investment in the playing squad were brushed off by Jeff Shi as "fans don't really know what they're talking about". That could well be true, but fans aren't just customers and there should be a greater degree of accountability and transparency. If fans should not be concerned, explain why, rather than palm fans off with a mysterious "trust us" message.

- The investment in Fabio Silva. Now, I am actually in the "Fabio come good" camp. I like him a lot, and I feel very sorry that he suffers the pressure of his price tag - it's eminently not fair for him personally. However, in the Johnny Phillips interviews, Jeff Shi took personal credit for the signing of Fabio Silva, seeing him as a generational talent who would be worth far more money in the future. There are two issues here: 1) if it is true that Silva's signing was solely a Jeff Shi decision, that strikes me as an overreach from a CEO without much footballing knowledge. 2) At a time of great uncertainty (pandemic), the departure of Diogo Jota and some obvious holes in the first team (which are yet to be redressed), spending £35M on "one for the future" as an investment looks like misaligned priorities.

- The general murmur and media noises that FOSUN's aim is to make money through player trading, and that achieving footballing success is secondary to that ambition. This could imply that FOSUN do not feel the need to heavily invest in the first team, preferring to cultivate young players and sell them on for a profit. Similarly, this could be what Jeff Shi means when he says "sustainable", and although that might be financially sustainable (if you don't want to invest) it's not a sustainable tactic for achieving football success.

- The discord between Lage and FOSUN. In both windows, Lage has been vocal about wanting more players in and having the right personnel for his system. He has had to backtrack on these and very clearly not the kind of support he wanted from FOSUN. Regardless of how this impacts the playing side, it shows a disconnect between manager and board, which is not a good thing.

In general, I think FOSUN see Wolves as a soft power tool to expand into the European leisure/entertainment market. I think they're conscious that bankrolling a club with new players to achieve top 4 money is a very high risk strategy and may not pay off. I think they're satisfied with treading water at a decent level, as it allows them to recoup investment and turn profits on players through trading. I think their chief ambition is financial, not sporting.

So I think there's a good case to be made that FOSUN aren't the kind of owners that fans might want, especially after the early years of great success. I also think there's a good case that FOSUN aren't the best possible owners for the club, and that they don't have any great love for the soul of the club, or its achievements on the pitch (unless those achievements are explicitly profitable and low risk).

I do not buy the argument that we should be grateful for FOSUN, as though fans owe them something. Absolutely it is true that Wolves have enjoyed huge success under FOSUN, and that is to their credit. However, they haven't revived the club out of love or altruism - they are here to expand their economic interests, just like the vast, vast majority of top flight owners. They treat the club strictly as a business, and as such, we are customers - we pay for our season tickets, merchandise, etc. We have upheld our end of the transaction, and don't owe them any kind of generosity on the grounds that they have invested in the club previously. What we might owe them is trust on the basis of past performance - and there is a legitimate argument to be had there, but I'm not sure it's an argument I agree with.

With all that being said, taking a FOSUN-out position is altogether different. It presupposes that FOSUN would/could sell the club to someone who can/will do a better job than them. For all the problems with FOSUN, there are some stark facts: we are in the Premier League; we're run relatively sustainably; we're not in significant debt; there are no obvious infrastructural problems at the club; we don't look like a side that will get relegated. In terms of the smooth and healthy running of a football club, I think FOSUN are better than the league average, and miles better than the national average.

So if FOSUN were to sell up, how confident could we be that the new owners would be as good as FOSUN, never mind better? I think, at this stage, the risk of new owners is intolerably high.

 

[Rhyl Wolf]

Just read that Fosun (or any Chinese business for that matter) are struggling to get money in & out of China at moment. Maybe those more educated and versed in economics may offer an opinion as to how this may impact on Wolves??

 

[Chris H]

To be fair that is pretty accurate.

We all knew Traore wanted out, what could we do, but the club should by now have sorted out replacements and back Bruno.
The club run the risk of damaging the excellent morale within, by pushing and stretching it to its limits.
Its just really disappointing. And somewhat sad.

I think they did, I think they brought Trincao in in the summer ahead of the expected sale of Traore. But then Traore wasn’t sold so everyone took it as that being the basis of the squad numbers in that position and now see us as minus 1.

The same happened with Jota, I believe Podence was brought in ahead of expecting to sell one of Traore or Jota that summer (I believe Traore was earmarked but Jota garnered interest).

People always say we should have a succession plan, don’t sell before you have a replacement but then when we do that people want the succession plan and the replacement.

The issue is, and has been for a while now, that they’ve run the squad very lean. We have a perfectly fine squad size as long as everyone is fit, and when they were it was great. But for 2, nearly 3 years now, that’s unravelled with injuries.

 

[kentish wolf]

In all honesty if I had been offered 34 points after 22 games last August I would have ripped your arm off.
Fosun are not bad owners IMHO but the investment has dried up for various reasons.
Restrictions in China, covid and also we are one of many fingers in their pie.
The only the clubs above us in the table are the usual suspects and to get amongst them we will need some decent investment.
in the attacking department
Bruno has done well with the squad at his disposal but if we are to get into the top 6 it is obvious what is required
A much higher number in the goals for column.

 

[Supadavewolf]

Time for some answers IMO.

What brain cell did you use when you loaned out one of our better place and failed to sign cover for a 37 year old midfielder.

Name one other club that have loaned out on of their best attackers. This is like Arsenal loaning out smith rowe, or spurs loaning out Lucas , or Man U loaning out Sancho.

Wow. Moutinho has aged quickly.

 

[old wittonian]

I think you've got to distinguish between being unhappy about and critical of FOSUN, and wanting them gone. I am in the former camp but not necessarily in the latter camp.

There are some good reasons to be critical of FOSUN.

- Investment in the squad in the last two windows has been poor, and the squad is materially weaker than it has been. Key players who have departed have not been replaced with players of equal ability. At the same time, we are seeing investment in other areas of the club profile, such as Wolves Music, esports and Grasshoppers, which makes the lack of squad investment more frustrating.

- Communication has been relatively poor and left some doubting the honesty and sincerity of the senior team. There is a real sense of ambiguity about FOSUN's plan for the team; references to FFP limiting spending are either poorly explained or flat-out inaccurate. We have seen a ticket price hike justified with the promise of a better product, which hasn't manifested very clearly.

- Club engagement with fans has seemed hollow, and at times, scornful. Concerns about investment in the playing squad were brushed off by Jeff Shi as "fans don't really know what they're talking about". That could well be true, but fans aren't just customers and there should be a greater degree of accountability and transparency. If fans should not be concerned, explain why, rather than palm fans off with a mysterious "trust us" message.

- The investment in Fabio Silva. Now, I am actually in the "Fabio come good" camp. I like him a lot, and I feel very sorry that he suffers the pressure of his price tag - it's eminently not fair for him personally. However, in the Johnny Phillips interviews, Jeff Shi took personal credit for the signing of Fabio Silva, seeing him as a generational talent who would be worth far more money in the future. There are two issues here: 1) if it is true that Silva's signing was solely a Jeff Shi decision, that strikes me as an overreach from a CEO without much footballing knowledge. 2) At a time of great uncertainty (pandemic), the departure of Diogo Jota and some obvious holes in the first team (which are yet to be redressed), spending £35M on "one for the future" as an investment looks like misaligned priorities.

- The general murmur and media noises that FOSUN's aim is to make money through player trading, and that achieving footballing success is secondary to that ambition. This could imply that FOSUN do not feel the need to heavily invest in the first team, preferring to cultivate young players and sell them on for a profit. Similarly, this could be what Jeff Shi means when he says "sustainable", and although that might be financially sustainable (if you don't want to invest) it's not a sustainable tactic for achieving football success.

- The discord between Lage and FOSUN. In both windows, Lage has been vocal about wanting more players in and having the right personnel for his system. He has had to backtrack on these and very clearly not the kind of support he wanted from FOSUN. Regardless of how this impacts the playing side, it shows a disconnect between manager and board, which is not a good thing.

In general, I think FOSUN see Wolves as a soft power tool to expand into the European leisure/entertainment market. I think they're conscious that bankrolling a club with new players to achieve top 4 money is a very high risk strategy and may not pay off. I think they're satisfied with treading water at a decent level, as it allows them to recoup investment and turn profits on players through trading. I think their chief ambition is financial, not sporting.

So I think there's a good case to be made that FOSUN aren't the kind of owners that fans might want, especially after the early years of great success. I also think there's a good case that FOSUN aren't the best possible owners for the club, and that they don't have any great love for the soul of the club, or its achievements on the pitch (unless those achievements are explicitly profitable and low risk).

I do not buy the argument that we should be grateful for FOSUN, as though fans owe them something. Absolutely it is true that Wolves have enjoyed huge success under FOSUN, and that is to their credit. However, they haven't revived the club out of love or altruism - they are here to expand their economic interests, just like the vast, vast majority of top flight owners. They treat the club strictly as a business, and as such, we are customers - we pay for our season tickets, merchandise, etc. We have upheld our end of the transaction, and don't owe them any kind of generosity on the grounds that they have invested in the club previously. What we might owe them is trust on the basis of past performance - and there is a legitimate argument to be had there, but I'm not sure it's an argument I agree with.

With all that being said, taking a FOSUN-out position is altogether different. It presupposes that FOSUN would/could sell the club to someone who can/will do a better job than them. For all the problems with FOSUN, there are some stark facts: we are in the Premier League; we're run relatively sustainably; we're not in significant debt; there are no obvious infrastructural problems at the club; we don't look like a side that will get relegated. In terms of the smooth and healthy running of a football club, I think FOSUN are better than the league average, and miles better than the national average.

So if FOSUN were to sell up, how confident could we be that the new owners would be as good as FOSUN, never mind better? I think, at this stage, the risk of new owners is intolerably high.

Excellent post. Well done.

 

[steve vena]

Excellent post. Well done.

Agree with all of that.
We have emotional attachment to the club in my case 49 years ...more with other posters on here.
Fosun don't.
As a few mixers have put on here lately ..." dreaming is for free".
That's not fosuns vision for us from what see right now.

 

[Bankswolf The Third]

I feel dejected about the whole thing and if I am honest I have felt this way since last year. Don't get me wrong I remember when we had owners who didn't invest before, quite a few times actually but what gets me is they built a good side, sold some elements and put us within 3 players of being a top six side. It is literally there within touching distance and FOSUN decided to pull the plug
I was massively against the whole "small squad" mantra of Nuno and was convinced then it was not a Nuno but rather a Jeff/Sellers/Thewell call because they got themselves in a corner where they had to buy smart rather than out of necessity. The smugness over the Raul signature and how it reached the Mexican market has led to them doing it for Hwang for the same reason and also led to them spending 35 million on a 18 year old where we could have had a decent midfielder for the same amount.
Bruno comes in recognises what we need within a week and asks and asks and asks and is met with a stone silence or essentially told to toe the line. For Bruno its his first opportunity at the big leagues. As a coach he is exceeding expectations and I imagine he probably knows it but without the support he will never be perceived as a top manager unlike Nuno who prior to Spurs was perceived because he got all the riches to build his own squad.
I won't be marching the streets or nothing demanding change. I don't think we will make top 6. Arsenal kind of put that to bed considering I don't think they are great but when it matters they can grind out results we can't. Our over reliance on attackers doing 4 different jobs at once has held us back and led to Jota leaving and showing everyone what someone can do when given one job rather than 4 and Adama getting his boy hood club and a new set of fans to dazzle and us left with a lifetime of "what ifs"
Mid table is decent, another year of premier league football is fantastic but like the Leicester away game at the start of the season I watch us and think if only we done a bit more.
Oh and as for the rest of the players. The day Neves leaves because of lack of investment will be a day I wont take well.

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

Just read that Fosun (or any Chinese business for that matter) are struggling to get money in & out of China at moment. Maybe those more educated and versed in economics may offer an opinion as to how this may impact on Wolves??

They will probably sell up before long maybe a year or two and the getting the money out of China regarding the CCP well this has been the case just prior to covid how convenient…. The next 5 years?? Let’s enjoy the ride while it lasts

 

[Axle]

Fosun said trust us. It’s now a 10 year project.

Grasshoppers have €50m to spend this summer. Wolves should have money too.

Let’s see what the summer window can bring us.

Fresh faces, new ideas and make a positive change

Not having a go, but where did you get the Grasshoppers figure from?

Seems a lot for a team in a third rate league.

It’s a decent amount for a Prem team after all

 

[Manic88]

Blah blah blah

How many fans are happy with their owners? City & that’s it

Fosun don’t owe us anything, Jeff hasn’t played football manager in his parents spare room until 1am & won’t trade players as such.

 

[Jawwfc]

Agree with all of that.
We have emotional attachment to the club in my case 49 years ...more with other posters on here.
Fosun don't.
As a few mixers have put on here lately ..." dreaming is for free".
That's not fosuns vision for us from what see right now.

Very good original post, I will reserve judgement until the FFP restrictions are up this year, some sources say different things very difficult to understand what the truth is in regards to FFP restrictions.

You say that Fosun have no attachment to the club like fans have and I understand and agree, Sir Jack had an emotional attachment to the club and wore his heart on his sleeve but ultimately we should have achieved more than we did when he was in charge and the amount spent at the time this I believe was mainly due to the emotional involved in decisions rather than sometimes looking at the facts, sometimes it can be better to have owners who have no attachment to the club as long as they understand what it means to those who have an attachment.

 

[hollo]

Not having a go, but where did you get the Grasshoppers figure from?

Seems a lot for a team in a third rate league.

It’s a decent amount for a Prem team after all

I think someone from grasshoppers is quoted somewhere as saying they have 50 million to spend over the next few years.

 

[oldgoldheart]

We don’t own our ground though? I think the club currently is valued at about 300/400m which is a significant profit on the 40m purchase and the 130m loan but still peanuts to Fosun.

we do own the ground. There is a lease but its a 1000 years . the only stipulation is that football is played there. we definitely own the ground

 

[VancouverWolf]

We don’t own our ground though? I think the club currently is valued at about 300/400m which is a significant profit on the 40m purchase and the 130m loan but still peanuts to Fosun.

Are you forgetting the amount of money Fosun spent over the last 5 years? I wonder if there is any profit yet.

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

Not having a go, but where did you get the Grasshoppers figure from?

Seems a lot for a team in a third rate league.

It’s a decent amount for a Prem team after all

It was on a newsnow article that they expect big funds to be made available and the same for Wolves. But it also said expect many changes which is what Iv been saying in other posts.

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

We don’t own our ground though? I think the club currently is valued at about 300/400m which is a significant profit on the 40m purchase and the 130m loan but still peanuts to Fosun.

For all intents and purposes we own it

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

For all intents and purposes we own it

So what’s with the lease agreement

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

So what’s with the lease agreement

Just stops the ground being sold and built on by anything other than football ground

 

[Rhoswolf]

Personally, I'd be happy to roll the dice and see Fosun sell.

 

[Starsky]

Just wish they'd get on with selling tbh.

They were the perfect owners which makes it all the more galling.

I really miss the positivity of the first 2 seasons back at this level,but it's gone now.