Fosun International. News and discussion on how business and/or geopolitical factors might potentially effect Wolves.

[SanFranWolf]

This thread is for discussing Fosuns general business performance and how that and geo political issues might potentially effect Wolves.

Here are a couple of articles that I think are relevant to this issue:

First an article published on the Financial Times web site on 02/06/22 entitled ‘China’s self-styled Warren Buffett haunted by Fosun’s $40bn debt’, discusses Fosuns divestments in view of a global property bond issues.

The article is behind the FT Paywall but you can read it by searching google for: ‘China’s self-styled Warren Buffett haunted by Fosun’s $40bn debt’

Second and this is an article a that has been around for a while (04/21) and has been discussed a little in various other threads: ‘Chinas communist Party forcing investors to pull money out of European Football’

 

[LosgallardosWolf]

Just read an article regarding Fosun and it's various companies in its portfolio. Apparently they are are $40 billion in debt and are selling off various companies due to the Chinese government no longer backing overseas investment.
Can't find the bloody article now but it made for worrying reading, wouldn't be surprised if we are sold.

 

[Ginger Chimp]

Fosun International. News and discussion on how business and/or geopolitical factors might potentially effect Wolves.

This thread is for discussing Fosuns general business performance and how that and geo political issues might potentially effect Wolves. Here are a couple of articles that I think are relevant to this issue: First an article published on the Financial Times web site on 02/06/22 entitled...

www.molineuxmix.co.uk

 

[Bill McCai]

Thanks for this advice!

You can find the article by searching google for: ‘China’s self-styled Warren Buffett haunted by Fosun’s $40bn debt’

 

[LosgallardosWolf]

Sorry

 

[LosgallardosWolf]

Thanks for this advice!

This was the article I was referring to before being told off by ginger monkey or something

 

[OLDGOLD]

Well if they are already 40 billion in debt then surely another 100 million spent on us would be a drop in the ocean eh?

 

[Starsky]

I do wonder whether the constant over-indexing on all things e-sports is an attempt by Jeff/Fosun to try and demonstrate to the CCP that their investment is aimed at more than just a European football club.... ie an attempt to be 'allowed' to carry on.

 

[Loefah]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1543507051673960448

 

[Bacon Sandwich]

It isn't the debt that will be the problem, it will be servicing the debt.

 

[SanFranWolf]

This thread might be better in the OT forum - mods please feel to move it over there if that's the best place for it.

 

[Oh When the Wolves]

Would be absolutely fantastic news if we were sold

 

[sillytuna]

I just posted on the other threat that we've been for sale for quite a while now and people ought to be more aware of how risky new owners are. The vast majority fail dismally.

 

[Titch]

This thread might be better in the OT forum - mods please feel to move it over there if that's the best place for it.

It definitely doesn't need to be in the OT thread!!

It could mean massive repercussions for us!!

 

[Sussex Wolf]

This thread might be better in the OT forum - mods please feel to move it over there if that's the best place for it.

This is definitely Wolves / football related as it stands. If people divert it into discussion on China geopolitics in general, then perhaps.

 

[Wiltshire Wolfie]

Keep it on here not in the OT threads, this is relevant to us for deeper and clearer understanding.

 

[Supadavewolf]

It definitely doesn't need to be in the OT thread!!

It could mean massive repercussions for us!!

Wow!!

Two sentences and four exclamation marks!!

It must be important!!

 

[sedgwolf1980]

This thread might be better in the OT forum - mods please feel to move it over there if that's the best place for it.

Could not disagree more.

It’s the single most important topic relating to our on the field performance.

Needs all the air time we can give it.

 

[Eastyorksyeltz]

Could not disagree more.

It’s the single most important topic relating to our on the field performance.

Needs all the air time we can give it.

Of course everyone will have an informed and expert opinion on this topic. Can't wait.

 

[sedgwolf1980]

Of course everyone will have an informed and expert opinion on this topic. Can't wait.

It’s a discussion forum for discussing the club we all support. No one’s proclaiming to be an expert on world politics.

 

[The White Mouse]

It’s a discussion forum for discussing the club we all support. No one’s proclaiming to be an expert on world politics.

give it 20 minutes...

 

[Mutchy]

It can have a chance, but if it becomes all things Chinese as opposed to the impact at Wolves, it gets moved.
Its also worth pointing out that it would still be available for discussion, its just that you'd need to go to a different forum section. And if that small amount of effort is too much...

 

[sc91]

It was noted years ago that the Chinese were pulling out of football as relationships soured. Wolves are the remnants and evidence enough of this is in the obvious form of Fosun writing off the loan to us and opting for a 'self sustaining model', essentially isolating Wolves from Fosun financially at this point.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

The debate around Fosun and Wolves in recent times has ranged from posters who talk about Fosun “taking money out”, “using Wolves as a cash cow” and “where’s the tv money” all the way over to Fosun “will spend big this summer” , “there’s money for the right players” etc. Personally don’t think the reality is at either extreme. Fosun haven’t taken money out of the club, and that’s clear from the accounts. Equally clear from the accounts, Fosun haven’t injected money into the squad since the first year or so post promotion.

Will they sell some of Wolves to another investor? Yes. Will they sell up completely? Maybe

 

[CologneWolf]

I just posted on the other threat that we've been for sale for quite a while now and people ought to be more aware of how risky new owners are. The vast majority fail dismally.

Most people can only see what’s directly in front of them. Granted it’s not encouraging at the moment but it’s not apocalyptic. They don’t care to or in some cases just don’t have the ability to see with any foresight.

Alot here are brilliant in hindsight on the other hand.

I’m looking forward to when a new owner has us back in the championship or worse and we will all look back fondly and remember how Fosun were actually decent owners. Kind of like how when Thewell was here but now the opinion of him has slowly shifted from incompetent moron to some sort of revered figure in Wolves folklore.

 

[De Wolfs Mullet]

I read the FT article myself this morning and I have to say I'm becoming more concerned.

It sounds as if the wider Fosun empire is having cashflow issues as foreign lenders are shutting up shop with them. It certainly helps explain the sell to buy approach by the club and the cashflow loans with Macquarie.

At least the club aren't up to their eyeballs in debt (too much), but there appears to no money in the kitty other than to manage ongoing running costs. Worrying stuff.

 

[Monketron]

There's no way Wolves would be up for sale without it leaking to the press. Wouldn't worry too much about that. It probably does mean Fosun won't be investing much if anything into the club again any time soon, so the self sustaining policy is very much here to stay, and no chance the ground gets upgraded in any substantial way.

 

[MattH]

I saw something on Twitter (yes I know but bear with me) that claimed Guo owns a big chunk of Wolves in a personal capacity alongside Fosun's share.

Anyone know it that's true? It rings a bell as I think there were questions like this floating round when they first bought us.

Important as it influences how exposed we are to Fosuns current problems, at least directly.

 

[clivewolves]

I'm relaxed about it.

 

[Flea]

Question is if Fosun will be able to survive their mountain of debts without proper state backing?
One things for sure for the immediate future anyways..interest rates will continue to go up and property values will go in the opposite direction.
There is too much debt when Fosun is concerned,way I see it.
Will they be able to survive?

 

[Eastyorksyeltz]

The debate around Fosun and Wolves in recent times has ranged from posters who talk about Fosun “taking money out”, “using Wolves as a cash cow” and “where’s the tv money” all the way over to Fosun “will spend big this summer” , “there’s money for the right players” etc. Personally don’t think the reality is at either extreme. Fosun haven’t taken money out of the club, and that’s clear from the accounts. Equally clear from the accounts, Fosun haven’t injected money into the squad since the first year or so post promotion.

Will they sell some of Wolves to another investor? Yes. Will they sell up completely? Maybe

Exactly so and that is probably the limit of what most of us can safely say on the topic. Both finance, at this level and international politics are more complex than a discussion of the game of football. The tendency to create false narrative, around what we think, or assume to be the case, is bad enough when we speculate around a game that we all love and have some familiarity with. I shall therefore attempt to stay out of the debate on this thread.

 

[Hoganstolemywife]

I've posted before that I'm close to someone who worked with a company that is in charge of a lot of Fosun's investments. We are no longer close, but I spoke to one of her old colleagues earlier this week.

It is his ardent belief - in an entirely off the record sense - that Wolves are quite openly up for sale Fosun have been brilliant for Wolves but football is a cruel game. If owners stop putting money in, things go downhill quickly. It's harsh, but true.

Anyway, I probably shouldn't be posting this, but I very rarely have little snippets of knowledge like this (aside from the Moutinho thing this week). He has no interest in football and is approaching it from a pure: "this is what my opinion is" sense, but from the way he explained it, hard to disagree.

 

[Wisdomwolf]

Question is if Fosun will be able to survive their mountain of debts without proper state backing?
One things for sure for the immediate future anyways..interest rates will continue to go up and property values will go in the opposite direction.
There is too much debt when Fosun is concerned,way I see it.
Will they be able to survive?

Trying to put this into some perspective.

14th June 2022

moodys issue an intention to review a downgrade - this has been widely reported and forms the basis of the FT article. Its a caution not an actual downgrade.

24th June 2022

S&P, who are the other credit agency with who fosun is listed, provides the following report. The contrast between the much quoted and hardly mentioned S&P reports could not be greater. Alongside this Deixa Capital and Morgan Stanley also provide a positive note of assurance, in fact are referenced in the FT article.

Given both Moody’s and S&P are reputable sources you have to ask why their assessments are so different?



Fosun has flexibility to replenish cash and has adequate resources to manage debt maturities

...

(Please don't c&p articles. A link and short excerpts are okay. Mutchy.)

 

[MattH]

I've posted before that I'm close to someone who worked with a company that is in charge of a lot of Fosun's investments. We are no longer close, but I spoke to one of her old colleagues earlier this week.

It is his ardent belief - in an entirely off the record sense - that Wolves are quite openly up for sale Fosun have been brilliant for Wolves but football is a cruel game. If owners stop putting money in, things go downhill quickly. It's harsh, but true.

Anyway, I probably shouldn't be posting this, but I very rarely have little snippets of knowledge like this (aside from the Moutinho thing this week). He has no interest in football and is approaching it from a pure: "this is what my opinion is" sense, but from the way he explained it, hard to disagree.

Thanks for sharing. I can see how an asset bought to generate soft power rather than cash is going to be high up the list of things to sell when you need a fee yuan.

 

[old wittonian]

Would be absolutely fantastic news if we were sold

It may be that we are already in negotiations with potential buyers. We just wouldn't know if that were the case at it wouldn't be announced until it was signed and sealed.

 

[MattH]

Would be absolutely fantastic news if we were sold

Really? It would be fantastic news if we ended up with some billionaire happy to spaff his fortune on the club. It wouldn't be so fantastic if we end up with the equivalent of Venky's or the Glazers.

Change of ownership is a huge risk.

 

[Tring Wolf]

The club advertised the role of PA to the Executive Chairman on Friday.

Suggests that Jeff Shi doesn’t see himself going anywhere in the foreseeable future.

 

[Halesowen wwfc]

It may be that we are already in negotiations with potential buyers. We just wouldn't know if that were the case at it wouldn't be announced until it was signed and sealed.

U can imagine mendes will be part of negotiations as well

 

[SmiffyWolf]

The club advertised the role of PA to the Executive Chairman on Friday.

Suggests that Jeff Shi doesn’t see himself going anywhere in the foreseeable future.

PA like a new signing that will be

 

[Monketron]

I should also point out, that from an investment point of view, it makes little sense to sell Wolves. We aren't lumbering them with debt, and while we don't make them money directly from dividends etc, our value keeps increasing as the value of the Premier League broadcast rights increase. Also Fosun's investment in Gestifute definitely makes them money and owning Wolves is part of that.