Food for thought?

[Kebab Warrior]

So no, you don’t have data to back up your opinion either. Only difference being I’ve offered the biggest one but you keep side stepping it. Why do so many BAME players leave the game when they hang their boots up in comparison to their white counterparts who regularly walk into jobs (some top jobs) with relevant experience? What is that differentiator? Are you genuinely suggesting they ALL interview better?

I’m sorry, no, to repeat myself this is YOUR argument. Specifically that BAME players can’t get jobs because all clubs are inherently racist. You’re saying it, you offer proof. PROOVE to me Fosun are racist. PROOVE to me City are, Liverpool are, Utd are, Newcastle are, Palace are etc. You’re the one making the claim.

My COUNTER ARGUMENT is that that your statement is reductive, childish and overly simplistic. It lacks any credible evidence (correlation does not imply causation). The burden of proof lies with you - it’s your argument.

God exists

I don’t believe you

PROOVE HE DOESNT!!

I don’t need to. You’re the one saying he exists.

On that note I bid you good night. I have enjoyed our discussion,

 

[Kebab Warrior]

No you’re right, it’s all coincidence.

Again where did I say that? Oh I didn’t. If you could resist the temptation to resort to strawman arguments you’d be far better at this.

 

[Kebab Warrior]

Genuinely though I appreciate the discussion.

It’s good to engage in something beyond X player is crap.

Good night.

 

[Ercall Wolves]

Is everyone over analysing this?
Perhaps the simple answer is there are more bame players now than ever before
Therefore in years to come there will more bame managers than ever before?

 

[WorcesterWanderer]

I don't care if someone is black, white, gay, straight etc. If a manager- or player- gives his all for our club, then I will adore, love and appreciate him. The only thing that matters to me in football is what someone gives to the club I love. Quite simple but that's all I have to say on it.

 

[Werewolf of Wombourne]

I don’t run football so I don’t think it’s for me to suggest solutions. Though accepting there is a problem as ex BAME players have said and the statistics blatantly point at would be a start rather than pretending their isn’t a problem and everyone has “equal opportunity”

I don’t anyone is suggesting there isn’t an issue there that needs fixing, I certainly agree there is a problem there. It’s the easy assumption that it’s solely down to the racism of football clubs that people like me are pushing back on. And surely a key part of any report of this nature worth the paper it’s written on is suggesting potential solutions? Telling clubs to be less racist doesn’t sound much of a solution to me. Clubs are greedy, self serving and in some cases plain stupid. They are going to appoint the person they either see as the best candidate to take them forward or, in the cases of the stupid ones, the biggest name they can afford. I just don’t see why a club would reject an outstanding black candidate in favour of a less talented white one.

In our particular case did we have any black applicants after Lopetegui left? After all , we’ve proved that we are more than willing to give black coaches a chance. If we didn’t advertise and only approached a shortlist are there any black coaches you think should have been on it? If you’re going to make accusations of racism you have to have more evidence than just ‘you didn’t appoint a black head coach, therefore you must be a racist’

 

[caradon wolf]

Is everyone over analysing this?
Perhaps the simple answer is there are bame players now than ever before
Therefore in years to come there will more bame than ever before?

A different and much needed perspective I think.
The one constant in human history is change. At our individual, day to day level, it can seem to be glacially slow. Regressive perhaps at times. At my age I remember Clyde Best playing for West Ham. A time when foreign players meant someone from north of the border. I remember Ron Noades feeling able to express opinions about his clubs' players that would possibly be considered against the law today.
Sometimes change does not happen quickly enough. Sometimes it is perhaps too quick. I think both are happening at the present time.
In a hundred year's time life will, I believe, be quite different.
We will still be arguing about it though. I hope.

 

[Ned]

He’s no more strange than plenty of his peers who did get opportunities.

No chance, man is as mad as a box of frogs.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

To be fair, you have to admire the sheer genius of the argument that seems to have come about in recent years that saying that Black people are discriminated against makes you the racist because you're 'denying Black people any agency'.

I do think it's a complex situation, it is a slow process of role models being needed, the idea that Black managers are sacked more is quite surprising as you'd imagine that they would be better than non-Black statistically and that the people that appointed them were less likely to have biases.

The only thing this piece seems to add to previous arguments is that it was always said that Black players didn't want to go into coaching, but the analysis of coaching licenses seems to counter that argument.

 

[Black Country Wanderer]

So no, you don’t have data to back up your opinion either. Only difference being I’ve offered the biggest one but you keep side stepping it. Why do so many BAME players leave the game when they hang their boots up in comparison to their white counterparts who regularly walk into jobs (some top jobs) with relevant experience? What is that differentiator? Are you genuinely suggesting they ALL interview better?

Didnt Paul Ince say something along the lines of Wolves being prejudiced against him because of his colour?
Forgetting we had a BAME manger in the 70s with Sammy Chung and Terry Connor more recently

 

[oldsamdingle]

The elephant in the room is football boardrooms being full of white old men who do the hiring and firing.

Down with all old white men BOO BOO Snakes all of them

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Didnt Paul Ince say something along the lines of Wolves being prejudiced against him because of his colour?
Forgetting we had a BAME manger in the 70s with Sammy Chung and Terry Connor more recently

Tbf the latter was appointed on a caretaker basis after we royally screwed up the recruitment process. Oh and Ince said that about 4 years prior to TC being appointed!

 

[Black Country Wanderer]

Tbf the latter was appointed on a caretaker basis after we royally screwed up the recruitment process. Oh and Ince said that about 4 years prior to TC being appointed!

Yeah wasnt sure when he applied tbh,but the facts still remain,he just wasnt good enough in the boards opinion and i think thats been born out over time

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Yeah wasnt sure when he applied tbh,but the facts still remain,he just wasnt good enough in the boards opinion and i think thats been born out over time

The point remains, he wasn’t even offered an interview at the time which is what BAME managers have echoed, they don’t get an interview to even begin the journey.

 

[Black Country Wanderer]

The point remains, he wasn’t even offered an interview at the time which is what BAME managers have echoed, they don’t get an interview to even begin the journey.

I think he was still playing for the club then if i recall correctly so no managerial experience at all
I believe he applied again after that when Zenga left but not totally sure on that

 

[WalsallWolf]

The point remains, he wasn’t even offered an interview at the time which is what BAME managers have echoed, they don’t get an interview to even begin the journey.

Ince had an interview. Several infact and got down to the final 3 that SJH saw.

Mick McCarthy was given the job and given the situation we found ourselves in back then, it was the correct choice.

In that example the skin colour of Ince played absolutely no part in the decision.

Infact I remember at the time, my heart ruling my head (because I loved Ince) wanted him to get the job. But Wolves made the correct choice and Ince comments after (although it still imo didn't tarnish his time at the club) was a massive disappointment. A man of his character and knowledge of the game should have known better. Someone of McCarthy's ilk and experience was a no brainer appointment.

His time at Blackburn proved he needed to cut his cloth at a lower level before making that jump. Funnily enough I watched his podcast with Simon Jordan and he admitted as much. He should have learnt at the lower levels longer before making that jump. As should many retiring players leaving the game to manage. Irrespective of colour/gender/[insert label]. But I guess that doesn't fit the narrative.

 

[Ercall Wolves]

A different and much needed perspective I think.
The one constant in human history is change. At our individual, day to day level, it can seem to be glacially slow. Regressive perhaps at times. At my age I remember Clyde Best playing for West Ham. A time when foreign players meant someone from north of the border. I remember Ron Noades feeling able to express opinions about his clubs' players that would possibly be considered against the law today.
Sometimes change does not happen quickly enough. Sometimes it is perhaps too quick. I think both are happening at the present time.
In a hundred year's time life will, I believe, be quite different.
We will still be arguing about it though. I hope.

Somebody will be….sadly not me and you

 

[WISAW]

While i agree the stats dont look good at all,ive always believed if your good enough you will make it,no matter what your creed or colour
Theres thousands of great white footballers who never made the managerial grade too
Theres always been the managerial merry go round where the established managers just move from job to job, especially at the very top,so i dont agree its solely about colour
I mean who is more loved than George Elokobi?
Will he ever make a top manager? Who knows? But it wont be for a lack of empathy just a business decision
Ive no doubt 30/40 years ago there was bigotry in the board rooms, but not so much nowadays imo

Uhmm.....but the stats?

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Is everyone over analysing this?
Perhaps the simple answer is there are more bame players now than ever before
Therefore in years to come there will more bame managers than ever before?

There’s been a huge amount of BAME players for over 30 years but it’s not transferred into the dugout. There’s a huge rise in BAME players getting their coaching badges but again that’s not transferred over either.

When known “trouble” like Joey Barton walk straight from a playing role into a managerial role, where BAME options don’t get afforded that luxury it surely raises questions.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

Ince had an interview. Several infact and got down to the final 3 that SJH saw.

Mick McCarthy was given the job and given the situation we found ourselves in back then, it was the correct choice.

In that example the skin colour of Ince played absolutely no part in the decision.

Infact I remember at the time, my heart ruling my head (because I loved Ince) wanted him to get the job. But Wolves made the correct choice and Ince comments after (although it still imo didn't tarnish his time at the club) was a massive disappointment. A man of his character and knowledge of the game should have known better. Someone of McCarthy's ilk and experience was a no brainer appointment.

His time at Blackburn proved he needed to cut his cloth at a lower level before making that jump. Funnily enough I watched his podcast with Simon Jordan and he admitted as much. He should have learnt at the lower levels longer before making that jump. As should many retiring players leaving the game to manage. Irrespective of colour/gender/[insert label]. But I guess that doesn't fit the narrative.

Thanks for this. Last night I said, not talking necessarily about Paul Ince, that perhaps quite simply black footballers were not the best candidates for the jobs they applied for. Paul Ince is a really good example of this situation. His colour had nothing to do with the job going to someone else but as you say 'that doesn't fit the narrative'.

 

[Ercall Wolves]

There’s been a huge amount of BAME players for over 30 years but it’s not transferred into the dugout. There’s a huge rise in BAME players getting their coaching badges but again that’s not transferred over either.

When known “trouble” like Joey Barton walk straight from a playing role into a managerial role, where BAME options don’t get afforded that luxury it surely raises questions.

Afraid not for me.
I just don’t believe there is any bias when the chairman, owners of football clubs etc are choosing their new manager, they just want the best person for the position and salary they are offering, regardless of colour or creed

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Thanks for this. Last night I said, not talking necessarily about Paul Ince, that perhaps quite simply black footballers were not the best candidates for the jobs they applied for. Paul Ince is a really good example of this situation. His colour had nothing to do with the job going to someone else but as you say 'that doesn't fit the narrative'.

If there’s a narrative being pushed I’d suggest it’s the one that somehow for 95% of the managerial jobs that white candidates were the best ones for the role which massively outweighs the sheer number of BAME individuals in the game.

 

[Mutchy]

Thanks for this. Last night I said, not talking necessarily about Paul Ince, that perhaps quite simply black footballers were not the best candidates for the jobs they applied for.

En masse they weren't? How could that possibly be the case?

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Afraid not for me.
I just don’t believe there is any bias when the chairman, owners of football clubs etc are choosing their new manager, they just want the best person for the position and salary they are offering, regardless of colour or creed

No unconscious bias?

No pre conceived ideas / opinions in play? All just purely coincidental the massive disparity between white-bame player ratio and those in management?

 

[WolfLing]

View attachment 41272

Never argue the person, argue the post.

 

[Ginger Chimp]

No they're not, but our board isn't white, so what do those boards look like? I genuinely don't know. But if a non white board removes or doesn't employ a black manager is that acceptable?

We'll never know what the improvement over time is without the data which this report doesn't fully represent. As it stands without the additional info its a pointless report. 14 years is a long hap to not include.

Also this wasn't done out of the academics good will, it was commissioned by a pressure group, so will have been written to their brief. Which again makes me question why they have failed to include the last 14 years. Does it show an improvement that doesn't support their agenda? We'll never know unless they bring it up to date.

Wait, what? I haven't read the report but are you saying it ignores the last 14 years of history?

So, in effect, it's a minimum of fourteen years out of date (in terms of data being reported on)?

Fourteen years ... just let that sink in. What has happened in the last fourteen years? How many changes have there been in the world?

Does this add or detract to the credibility of the work done in the report?

 

[Ginger Chimp]

you really should read the article:

“despite black players making up 25% of Uefa-issued coaching qualifications, in 2022 and 2023, they only accounted for 4% of all managerial roles”…

that one statistic alone is enough to indicate there is a problem.

diversity is not just the right thing to do, it also gets better results and a better society because all needs and points of view are considered.

yet this quote suggests that some of the report does consider recent history ...

Confused? I should say so.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Wait, what? I haven't read the report but are you saying it ignores the last 14 years of history?

So, in effect, it's a minimum of fourteen years out of date (in terms of data being reported on)?

Fourteen years ... just let that sink in. What has happened in the last fourteen years? How many changes have there been in the world?

Does this add or detract to the credibility of the work done in the report?

I definitely think it should include the last 14 years of data for full analysis, but the rawest of data is there in that the number of BAME managers is almost identical now as to 14 years ago (in fact there might actually be less now!).

There’s definitely more BAME individuals with their coaching badges (as there’s also more white people) but the number of coaching staff hasn’t dramatically altered.

 

[QB Wolf]

At some point a BAME manager will come along in the Premier League who will get their chance at a top 6 side, they'll get their chance on merit and they'll succeed on merit and will blow everyone's socks off and then it will all change. Who knows when it will be, but it will happen and it will then thankfully be the norm.

 

[WolfLing]

No unconscious bias?

No pre conceived ideas / opinions in play? All just purely coincidental the massive disparity between white-bame player ratio and those in management?

Surely people know deep down that it's not just coincidence.

People must have seen the sort of stuff that still goes on in their own world to know that bias does exist?!

Like how I know of a company that won't employ Asian people because the one Asian person they employed 20 years ago had to leave her job when her parents arranged a marriage for her? Or the story of the racist car salesman from the pub who inflates his prices for black people?

Football is full of people. People have learnt biases and misconceptions.

No one is saying that fundamentally, Fosun are racist, or the Glazers are racist etc. Just that the system in which they operate has current and historical biases that have made it more difficult for minorities to be given the same opportunities as white people.

How do you fix it?

Blind CVs is one way that other businesses do it. So you're giving the opportunity to interview based not on a name or a photo, but on a person's ability. Doesn't really work in a world like football, where everyone knows everyone else!

A lot of it will come from people taking more leaps of faith. Choosing the difficult option instead of the easy one. Warnock finally retiring will help too.

 

[Aurum Lupus]

Wait, what? I haven't read the report but are you saying it ignores the last 14 years of history?

So, in effect, it's a minimum of fourteen years out of date (in terms of data being reported on)?

Fourteen years ... just let that sink in. What has happened in the last fourteen years? How many changes have there been in the world?

Does this add or detract to the credibility of the work done in the report?

Yes, it's says so in the 2nd paragraph in the article and that's why I'm so dismissive. They missed 14 of 44 years of data. That's a significant portion of info not analysed.

This significant set of data and the fact it was commissioned by a pressure group to build their case are the main problems.

If you want to do a report like this it should be started with no preconceived notions and all data taken in to account.

If it doesn't it's plainly partisan!

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Yes, it's says so in the 2nd paragraph in the article and that's why I'm so dismissive. They missed 14 of 44 years of data. That's a significant portion of info not analysed.

This significant set of data and the fact it was commissioned by a pressure group to build their case are the main problems.

If you want to do a report like this it should be started with no preconceived notions and all data taken in to account.

If it doesn't it's plainly partisan!

I don't think that's the point. They looked at what has happened to players who played in the PL and Champ between 1990-2010, they are looking at where their careers went. So the data is up to date, it's just looking at people who had time to get their badges, take less senior roles etc.

This report for example is trying to see if the current initiatives are having any impact.

https://api.blackfootballerspartnership.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/BFP-SzymanskiReport2023-1.pdf

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

Surely people know deep down that it's not just coincidence.

People must have seen the sort of stuff that still goes on in their own world to know that bias does exist?!

Like how I know of a company that won't employ Asian people because the one Asian person they employed 20 years ago had to leave her job when her parents arranged a marriage for her? Or the story of the racist car salesman from the pub who inflates his prices for black people?

Football is full of people. People have learnt biases and misconceptions.

No one is saying that fundamentally, Fosun are racist, or the Glazers are racist etc. Just that the system in which they operate has current and historical biases that have made it more difficult for minorities to be given the same opportunities as white people.

How do you fix it?

Blind CVs is one way that other businesses do it. So you're giving the opportunity to interview based not on a name or a photo, but on a person's ability. Doesn't really work in a world like football, where everyone knows everyone else!

A lot of it will come from people taking more leaps of faith. Choosing the difficult option instead of the easy one. Warnock finally retiring will help too.

Reading this it is clear there are 2 opposing factions, if you will, on here but I think we all agree some form of racism is involved but it is the degree that is perhaps the issue. For me there are many more issues than just racism at play. I'm more interested in what's to be done and no one on here or actually in the BFP paper has a plan. The paper says there needs to be a Code and targeted policies to prepare black players for management. The paper doesn't say what these targeted policies should be just that ' addressing the problems requires a systematic, honest and transparent approach'. All very vague. I would seriously worry if Clubs were told, for example, they must hire a certain % of black coaches or training staff.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Reading this it is clear there are 2 opposing factions, if you will, on here but I think we all agree some form of racism is involved but it is the degree that is perhaps the issue. For me there are many more issues than just racism at play. I'm more interested in what's to be done and no one on here or actually in the BFP paper has a plan. The paper says there needs to be a Code and targeted policies to prepare black players for management. The paper doesn't say what these targeted policies should be just that ' addressing the problems requires a systematic, honest and transparent approach'. All very vague. I would seriously worry if Clubs were told, for example, they must hire a certain % of black coaches or training staff.

Well to be clear nobody is asking for the last part and if they did they'd be told it was illegal.

 

[Werewolf of Wombourne]

At some point a BAME manager will come along in the Premier League who will get their chance at a top 6 side, they'll get their chance on merit and they'll succeed on merit and will blow everyone's socks off and then it will all change. Who knows when it will be, but it will happen and it will then thankfully be the norm.

I don't think it will be as easy as that. Nuno's success with us didn't lead to a sudden increase in black head coaches

 

[QB Wolf]

I don't think it will be as easy as that. Nuno's success with us didn't lead to a sudden increase in black head coaches

He won nothing, I mean someone winning the league and champions league etc..

 

[Werewolf of Wombourne]

He won nothing, I mean someone winning the league and champions league etc..

Fair enough. It would be nice to see someone apart from the usual suspects given an opportunity at Liverpool next, to succeed Ten Haag or to replace Pep when he finally leaves but unfortunately there's no chance.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

Fair enough. It would be nice to see someone apart from the usual suspects given an opportunity at Liverpool next, to succeed Ten Haag or to replace Pep when he finally leaves but unfortunately there's no chance.

We're kind of going round in circles here and disappearing up our backsides. I think all on here would like to see a black coach at say City or Liverpool but I can't think of any qualified enough in the English game presently. I don't know enough about the European scene to know if there is one across the Channel? Perhaps I am naive enough to believe these Clubs will employ the best man for the job, regardless of colour?

 

[Mutchy]

We're kind of going round in circles here and disappearing up our backsides. I think all on here would like to see a black coach at say City or Liverpool but I can't think of any qualified enough in the English game presently. I don't know enough about the European scene to know if there is one across the Channel? Perhaps I am naive enough to believe these Clubs will employ the best man for the job, regardless of colour?

So given the length of time black players have been prominently involved in playing at the top level, WHY aren't there now black candidates in competition for the top managerial positions? There's the issue.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

So given the length of time black players have been prominently involved in playing at the top level, WHY aren't there now black candidates in competition for the top managerial positions? There's the issue.

Mutchy, you are right. I think all on here think you're right. And again, you are right, WHY is the question there are so few black candidates? As I said above I think we are now going around in circles on here. Many would say racism in some form is 100% the reason, others, like me, feel it is a small part of the reason. The truth I expect lies somewhere in between. No one on here, including the BFP paper, has come up with concrete ways to tackle the issue, which is what really would interest me.